Bc2000 (for the BCF2000 & BCR2000)

Hi all

I have BCR connected in/out to a load of MIDI sources and running in S3 mode (to get parameter feedback).

When I move any endless encoder (havent noticed it on buttons) I can hear, thru my audio mixer, constant clicks.

I notice this isnt on all channels (only selected).

I thought MIDI cables themselves are current loops with opto-couplers to prevent earth loops etc.
And supposed to be twisted to stop noise.

And yet this BCR movement is creating audio in certain channels of the mixer.

So 
1] Anyone else ever experienced this from BCR2000
2] How did you solve it?
3] or any hints to track down where it is coming from.

I am working on isolating which kit allows the noise to propagate.
And checking my cables (gotta pick up the cable tester from a mate).

Oh I should check other than S3 modes too I guess.

Regards

Steve H

2012/6/19  <sghookings@...>:
> When I move any endless encoder (havent noticed it on buttons) I can hear, thru my audio mixer, constant clicks.
>
> I notice this isnt on all channels (only selected).
>
> I thought MIDI cables themselves are current loops with opto-couplers to prevent earth loops etc.
> And supposed to be twisted to stop noise.
>
> And yet this BCR movement is creating audio in certain channels of the mixer.

My Yamaha CS1x has the annoying habit of notifying me (with the help
of the mentioned clicks) of every move of its modulation wheel. I
don't remember if I ever tried to reproduce it with an external source
of CC#1 messages, but maybe your case is similar? I wouldn't suspect
MIDI cables to create such noises, rather an instrument.

Cheers,

Bruno

Hi Bruno

Does you mod wheel do this regardless of BCR in the loop?
See for me the BCR has to be in the loop (he induces the noise) and interestingly it is only certain instruments that propagate it.

I wish I could work out the mechanism so as to design a cure :-).

But at least I am not alone in hitting this issue ... would be bad news if one wanted to move a param whilst playing / recording ...

Regards

Steve H

--- In bc2000@yahoogroups.com, Bruno <brunorc@...> wrote:

>
> 2012/6/19  <sghookings@...>:
> > When I move any endless encoder (havent noticed it on buttons) I can hear, thru my audio mixer, constant clicks.
> >
> > I notice this isnt on all channels (only selected).
> >
> > I thought MIDI cables themselves are current loops with opto-couplers to prevent earth loops etc.
> > And supposed to be twisted to stop noise.
> >
> > And yet this BCR movement is creating audio in certain channels of the mixer.
> 
> My Yamaha CS1x has the annoying habit of notifying me (with the help
> of the mentioned clicks) of every move of its modulation wheel. I
> don't remember if I ever tried to reproduce it with an external source
> of CC#1 messages, but maybe your case is similar? I wouldn't suspect
> MIDI cables to create such noises, rather an instrument.
> 
> Cheers,
> 
> Bruno
>

FWIW  I get the same thing happening with my BCR2000.
That's why I'm thinking of taking it out of the loop. I've already incorporated a CME Bitstream 3X as a replacement.
I am using the BCR as a MIDI device into a M-Audio 8x8 MIDI patch bay (the ugly green and blue one); not using the BCR as a USB device at all.
I'm certain the BCR has a minor grounding issue. I hear a high pitch over my reference monitors when the BCR was turned on, but it disappears when it's off.
~r



________________________________
 From: "sghookings@..." <sghookings@...>
To: bc2000@yahoogroups.com 
Sent: Tuesday, June 19, 2012 10:58 AM
Subject: [bc2000] Re: Noise from control movements
 

  
Hi Bruno

Does you mod wheel do this regardless of BCR in the loop?
See for me the BCR has to be in the loop (he induces the noise) and interestingly it is only certain instruments that propagate it.

I wish I could work out the mechanism so as to design a cure :-).

But at least I am not alone in hitting this issue ... would be bad news if one wanted to move a param whilst playing / recording ...

Regards

Steve H

--- In bc2000@yahoogroups.com, Bruno <brunorc@...> wrote:

>
> 2012/6/19  <sghookings@...>:
> > When I move any endless encoder (havent noticed it on buttons) I can hear, thru my audio mixer, constant clicks.
> >
> > I notice this isnt on all channels (only selected).
> >
> > I thought MIDI cables themselves are current loops with opto-couplers to prevent earth loops etc.
> > And supposed to be twisted to stop noise.
> >
> > And yet this BCR movement is creating audio in certain channels of the mixer.
> 
> My Yamaha CS1x has the annoying habit of notifying me (with the help
> of the mentioned clicks) of every move of its modulation wheel. I
> don't remember if I ever tried to reproduce it with an external source
> of CC#1 messages, but maybe your case is similar? I wouldn't suspect
> MIDI cables to create such noises, rather an instrument.
> 
> Cheers,
> 
> Bruno
>

2012/6/19  <sghookings@...>:
> Does you mod wheel do this regardless of BCR in the loop?

I was referring to the "native" mod wheel of CS1x, as an example of
"audible" MIDI events w/o the use of BCR.

> See for me the BCR has to be in the loop (he induces the noise) and interestingly it is only certain instruments that propagate it.

I don't get it - BCR itself doesn't have any audio output. Apart from
some electrical issue (grounding?) I cannot find any explanation.

Bruno

There is +5V current in every MIDI cable.
(which makes it no surprise that USB is generally also 5-volt rated, but that's another topic)
So the hum can come from either the product, it's power adapter, or the MIDI signal itself. You never know.


I think the power adapter for any Behringer product, or, the products themselves, are not properly grounded. But again, that's just my opinion.




________________________________

 From: Bruno <brunorc@gmail.com>
To: bc2000@yahoogroups.com 
Sent: Tuesday, June 19, 2012 3:01 PM
Subject: Re: [bc2000] Re: Noise from control movements
 

  
2012/6/19  <sghookings@...>:
> Does you mod wheel do this regardless of BCR in the loop?

I was referring to the "native" mod wheel of CS1x, as an example of
"audible" MIDI events w/o the use of BCR.

> See for me the BCR has to be in the loop (he induces the noise) and interestingly it is only certain instruments that propagate it.

I don't get it - BCR itself doesn't have any audio output. Apart from
some electrical issue (grounding?) I cannot find any explanation.

Bruno

Hi Robert

That's what I am investigating now.

My hunch is someone (including myself in some kit I just made) got the cable shield muddled with the earth grounding and hence somehow connect the two OR there is a lack of twisted pairs in some of my cables. Which could defeat the purpose of the opto-couplers :-(.

I am needing to re-configure my garage "studio", so will carefully test each piece in isolation. (Good time to also label up those cables and route them more carefully).

I recall one piece of audio kit I had (since resoldered, star grounded and shielded!) that was a USB soundcard connected thru to a cheap Fender copy guitar. If ever the USB was powered from a PC that was also mains powered, then the hum was intolerable -- run it off battery powered laptop and all is quiet.

Thanks for all the suggestions so far.

Regards

Steve H

--- In bc2000@yahoogroups.com, Robert Dorschel <rdorsche@...> wrote:

>
> There is +5V current in every MIDI cable.
> (which makes it no surprise that USB is generally also 5-volt rated, but that's another topic)
> So the hum can come from either the product, it's power adapter, or the MIDI signal itself. You never know.
> 
> 
> I think the power adapter for any Behringer product, or, the products themselves, are not properly grounded. But again, that's just my opinion.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ________________________________
>  From: Bruno <brunorc@...>
> To: bc2000@yahoogroups.com 
> Sent: Tuesday, June 19, 2012 3:01 PM
> Subject: Re: [bc2000] Re: Noise from control movements
>  
> 
> Â  
> 2012/6/19  <sghookings@...>:
> > Does you mod wheel do this regardless of BCR in the loop?
> 
> I was referring to the "native" mod wheel of CS1x, as an example of
> "audible" MIDI events w/o the use of BCR.
> 
> > See for me the BCR has to be in the loop (he induces the noise) and interestingly it is only certain instruments that propagate it.
> 
> I don't get it - BCR itself doesn't have any audio output. Apart from
> some electrical issue (grounding?) I cannot find any explanation.
> 
> Bruno
>

One last suggestion:
I don't know if you have these stores over there, but:
Here in the USA back in the 80s and 90s a store chain called Radio Shack sold 5-Pin DIN cables which also worked okay as MIDI cables, "worked" for the most part.
Radio Shack figured out what most people were buying these generally unused cables (unused in the US anyways) and re-branded them as MIDI cables on the package.
Problem was, they didn't have all 5 wires/pins wired right. Either two weren't wired, or they were wired wrong.
This created various issues over time with MIDI gear.

As soon as I found that out, I brought all my MIDI cables to a music store that had a cable tester.
Problem was, I worked at Radio Shack for a bit and bought all my MID cables there... :)

Since then I've replaced them all with 'legit' MIDI cables.

~r



________________________________
 From: "sghookings@..." <sghookings@...>
To: bc2000@yahoogroups.com 
Sent: Wednesday, June 20, 2012 9:21 AM
Subject: [bc2000] Re: Noise from control movements
 

  
Hi Robert

That's what I am investigating now.

My hunch is someone (including myself in some kit I just made) got the cable shield muddled with the earth grounding and hence somehow connect the two OR there is a lack of twisted pairs in some of my cables. Which could defeat the purpose of the opto-couplers :-(.

I am needing to re-configure my garage "studio", so will carefully test each piece in isolation. (Good time to also label up those cables and route them more carefully).

I recall one piece of audio kit I had (since resoldered, star grounded and shielded!) that was a USB soundcard connected thru to a cheap Fender copy guitar. If ever the USB was powered from a PC that was also mains powered, then the hum was intolerable -- run it off battery powered laptop and all is quiet.

Thanks for all the suggestions so far.

Regards

Steve H

--- In bc2000@yahoogroups.com, Robert Dorschel <rdorsche@...> wrote:

>
> There is +5V current in every MIDI cable.
> (which makes it no surprise that USB is generally also 5-volt rated, but that's another topic)
> So the hum can come from either the product, it's power adapter, or the MIDI signal itself. You never know.
> 
> 
> I think the power adapter for any Behringer product, or, the products themselves, are not properly grounded. But again, that's just my opinion.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ________________________________
>  From: Bruno <brunorc@...>
> To: bc2000@...m 
> Sent: Tuesday, June 19, 2012 3:01 PM
> Subject: Re: [bc2000] Re: Noise from control movements
> 
> 
> Â  
> 2012/6/19  <sghookings@...>:
> > Does you mod wheel do this regardless of BCR in the loop?
> 
> I was referring to the "native" mod wheel of CS1x, as an example of
> "audible" MIDI events w/o the use of BCR.
> 
> > See for me the BCR has to be in the loop (he induces the noise) and interestingly it is only certain instruments that propagate it.
> 
> I don't get it - BCR itself doesn't have any audio output. Apart from
> some electrical issue (grounding?) I cannot find any explanation.
> 
> Bruno
>

Hi Steve
> When I move any endless encoder (havent noticed it on buttons) I can
hear, thru my audio mixer, constant clicks.
> I notice this isnt on all channels (only selected).

I assume you mean mixer channels .

> I thought MIDI cables themselves are current loops with opto-couplers
to prevent earth loops etc.
They are and as they are fairly slow baud rate it should be noise free.

> And yet this BCR movement is creating audio in certain channels of the
mixer.

What is connected to the audio input of these channels?
Many synths will give a 'zipper' noise with sysex parameter change
(rarely CC messages)
What synths are you using?
Is the gain set high on these mixer channels?

> 1] Anyone else ever experienced this from BCR2000
No

High frequency noise is usually related cpu clock noise.
50Hz (or 60Hz) rumble is of course mains.

Clicks in the encoder  would mean that the BC was broadcasting  either
contact noise from the encoder or CPU reaction -> Midi  output.
Contact noise from such a low voltage low current device seems unlikely.
As I recall the Midi output feeds have ferrite cores on them as well.

Disconnect every input from the mixer.
Route all mixer inputs to the output,  faders up.
Still there on any channel? -- check the gain on those channels.

Connect each synth one at a time - any noise?
If there is,  record some BC Midi messages in a DAW, disconnect the BC
and play the DAW track back and output that to the synth instead.
Still noise then it is the synth?

Royce