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Can the BCR2000 ouput sysex program change messages?

Can the BCR2000 ouput sysex program change messages?

2007-05-24 by eugenepark177

I'm looking for a controller for a Korg DW-8000 synth.  Apparently
it's midi implementation is primitive and it's parameters can only be
adjusted with sysex program change messages.  Some people have been
recommending the BCR2000, but from the Behringer site I can't find any
info regarding whether or not it can transmit sysex messages.

I won't be using a laptop or PC so midiOX or software translators
aren't an option.

I searched some messages here and now I'm even more confused.  Is
there some sort of sysex firmware hack?  What is the Birdie editor?  

I've somewhat familiar with programming midi devices, but haven't ever
had to deal with sysex... Am I better off buying something else?

Eugene

Re: Can the BCR2000 ouput sysex program change messages?

2007-05-25 by rpcfender

Hi Eugene

> I'm looking for a controller for a Korg DW-8000 synth.  Apparently
> it's midi implementation is primitive and it's parameters can only be
> adjusted with sysex program change messages.  Some people have been
> recommending the BCR2000, but from the Behringer site I can't find any
> info regarding whether or not it can transmit sysex messages.
> 
Info is very short on teh ground about the BCR and sysex but the BCR
sure can handle Sysex.
You can use the "Learn" function for the buttons but you'll need to
edit the BCR2k from a PC to get the rotary encoders to work.

> I won't be using a laptop or PC so midiOX or software translators
> aren't an option.
> 
Once you have created a patch you can save it in the BCR.

> I searched some messages here and now I'm even more confused.  Is
> there some sort of sysex firmware hack?   
Don't need to alter the firmwear, although the is a bug in their
uploading Sysex which would be good if they fixed it.

> What is the Birdie editor? 
It was probably the first BCR editor. The author tells me that
Behringer wasn't interested. The Java one they put out instead is a
beta version (ie still testing) version 0.2 I think and it has a lot
of bugs.
Behringer didn't want to give me the info for the unit so I used a
German web site that had hacked the info.
So there was only one choice for me and so I wrote a simple program to
edit the thing. (See the Script Editor) Download it. See if you can
work out how to use it. It's a bit basic but you can write anything
the BCR can respond to.
Let me know the sysex messages for the Korg and I'll try to help you out.
I have a DW-6000 buried around here somewhere. I could try that out
and see what happens if you want.

> I've somewhat familiar with programming midi devices, but haven't ever
> had to deal with sysex... Am I better off buying something else?
I haven't seen anything that will do what you want any cheaper than
the BCR. I use the BCR to program my Fantom X8 with sysex messages.
It works well.
If you can get a loan of a BCR i'll see if we can get you up and running.


All the best
Royce

Re: Can the BCR2000 ouput sysex program change messages?

2007-05-29 by Steve Meiers

Royce,

Re:
---------
> What is the Birdie editor?
It was probably the first BCR editor. The author tells me that
Behringer wasn't interested. The Java one they put out instead is a
beta version (ie still testing) version 0.2 I think and it has a lot
of bugs.
---------

Does this apply to the BCF as well?

If so, what is the best current editor for the BCF?

Thanks,
Steve

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Re: Can the BCR2000 ouput sysex program change messages?

2007-05-30 by eugenepark177

--- In bc2000@yahoogroups.com, "rpcfender" <rpcfender@...> wrote:
>
> Hi Eugene
> 
> > I'm looking for a controller for a Korg DW-8000 synth.  Apparently
> > it's midi implementation is primitive and it's parameters can only be
> > adjusted with sysex program change messages.  Some people have been
> > recommending the BCR2000, but from the Behringer site I can't find any
> > info regarding whether or not it can transmit sysex messages.
> > 
> Info is very short on teh ground about the BCR and sysex but the BCR
> sure can handle Sysex.
> You can use the "Learn" function for the buttons but you'll need to
> edit the BCR2k from a PC to get the rotary encoders to work.
> 
> > I won't be using a laptop or PC so midiOX or software translators
> > aren't an option.
> > 
> Once you have created a patch you can save it in the BCR.
> 
> > I searched some messages here and now I'm even more confused.  Is
> > there some sort of sysex firmware hack?   
> Don't need to alter the firmwear, although the is a bug in their
> uploading Sysex which would be good if they fixed it.
> 
> > What is the Birdie editor? 
> It was probably the first BCR editor. The author tells me that
> Behringer wasn't interested. The Java one they put out instead is a
> beta version (ie still testing) version 0.2 I think and it has a lot
> of bugs.
> Behringer didn't want to give me the info for the unit so I used a
> German web site that had hacked the info.
> So there was only one choice for me and so I wrote a simple program to
> edit the thing. (See the Script Editor) Download it. See if you can
> work out how to use it. It's a bit basic but you can write anything
> the BCR can respond to.
> Let me know the sysex messages for the Korg and I'll try to help you
out.
> I have a DW-6000 buried around here somewhere. I could try that out
> and see what happens if you want.
> 
> > I've somewhat familiar with programming midi devices, but haven't ever
> > had to deal with sysex... Am I better off buying something else?
> I haven't seen anything that will do what you want any cheaper than
> the BCR. I use the BCR to program my Fantom X8 with sysex messages.
> It works well.
> If you can get a loan of a BCR i'll see if we can get you up and
running.
> 
> 
> All the best
> Royce
>


Hi Royce,

Thanks a bunch for offering to help.  I actually don't have the
dw-8000 yet but should have it in a couple days.  I should be getting
the bcr2000 something this week as well.

I found a scan of the DW-8000 manual that has a Sysex Reference Chart
on pg66.

http://www.pallium.com/bryan/dw/DW-8000_Manual.pdf

Does that tell you anything?

Somebody else was telling me the BCR2000 will work as long as the
synth's sysex commands aren't too long.

Thanks again.  I'll let you know when I get the synth and bcr2000 setup.  

Eugene

Re: Can the BCR2000 ouput sysex program change messages?

2007-05-30 by rpcfender


> Does this apply to the BCF as well?
I've not used a BCF, but from what I have read the only difference is the lower 24 encoders on the BCR are replaced by the 8 motorised faders.
The script uses the command $fader and then uses most of the same encoder functions plus some special ones.
The first line of the script in the BCF is different. It should be $rev F1 where the BCR is $rev R1
>
> If so, what is the best current editor for the BCF?

Mine of course :-)
If you want to do simple things the Birdie editor is better to edit a patch, but there is not library function like the java one has.
Mine is, perhaps a bit more complex, in as much as you don't point-and-select but have to write the script.
But you can cut/copy and paste.
You can load a sysex file and the program reduces it to just the script so you can load one in and modify it. It will also show how the script works.
After its loaded you edit it like any other text file.

I didn't put in a way to get the sysex from the BCR as there is a bug in the BCR firmware. The BCR reads the checksum command correctly but when it sends back it fails to put it in.

You will need to use MidiOx or a sequencer to get the Sysex dump from your unit if you want a starting point (or Behringer has a large collection of them on the BCR/BCF download web page). I might include away to download a sysex dump from the BCR in a later version if anyone is interested, but at the moment I don't need it.

As far as I am aware, the only sysex messages that the BCF/BCR use are request Software ID and request patch names (gives the names of the 32 internal patches) and of course the script line.
The script editor (also has both the software id and patch list request in it) simply takes lines from a text file and wraps each line in the sysex header and footer that the BCF or BCR needs.
So you can write anything. If there are errors the BCR just ignores it and flashes Err on the display

Version 1.1 of the BCR/BCF firmware added the increment argument in the easypar command. I don't think either the java or the Birdie editor has included this.
As a working musician I wanted to be able to take advantage of this and other firmware changes that may occur without me having to change a line of code. I'm basically lazy.

So for the BCF I should think that this would work

$rev F1
$fader 2
; .minmax 0 127
.default 1
.tx $F0 $41 $10 $00 $6B $12 $10 $00 $27 $07 val cks-1 $06 $F7
.showvalue on
$end

This is a sysex command for the Fantom X.
cks-1 is the checksum that works for Roland (that the BCR would not have put out if it sent the sysex dump back).

Hope this helps

Re: Can the BCR2000 ouput sysex program change messages?

2007-05-30 by rpcfender

> I found a scan of the DW-8000 manual that has a Sysex Reference Chart
> on pg66.
>
> http://www.pallium.com/bryan/dw/DW-8000_Manual.pdf
>
> Does that tell you anything?

From page 65 - Parameter Change
$F0 $42 $3MidiChannel $03 $41 $Parameter Offset (the address of what you want to change) $New Value $F7
So to program the encoder on the bottom letft, the BCR should be programmed (with the DW-8000 on channel 2, for example)

$encoder 49 #Osc 1 Waveform - DW on channel 2
.minmax 0 16
.tx $F0 $42 $31 $03 $41 $02 val $F7

This should work
(You can use # or // to add comments in my editor and then print out a list to show what each button and encoder does)

>
> Somebody else was telling me the BCR2000 will work as long as the
> synth's sysex commands aren't too long.

The BCR can have a MIDI message or a few MIDI messages that are, in total, 123 bytes or less.
This is OK for sysex parameter change. Anything bigger would really slow things down.
You wouldn't send sysex data for a whole a patch and that is where the sysex messages get big.
As you can see your message only took 8 bytes so you could nearly have 16 message on the one encoder so you didn't have to remember what channel the DW-800 was on :^)
$encoder 49 #Osc 1 Waveform - DW on channel 2 and channel 3 (0 is channel 1)
.minmax 0 16
.tx $F0 $42 $31 $03 $41 $02 val $F7 $F0 $42 $32 $03 $41 $02 val $F7


Hope this helps

Re: Can the BCR2000 ouput sysex program change messages?

2007-06-15 by eugenepark177

--- In bc2000@yahoogroups.com, "rpcfender" <rpcfender@...> wrote:
>
> > I found a scan of the DW-8000 manual that has a Sysex Reference Chart
> > on pg66.
> >
> > http://www.pallium.com/bryan/dw/DW-8000_Manual.pdf
> >
> > Does that tell you anything?
> 
> From page 65 - Parameter Change
> $F0 $42 $3MidiChannel $03 $41 $Parameter Offset (the address of what you
> want to change) $New Value $F7
> So to program the  encoder on the bottom letft, the BCR should be
> programmed (with the DW-8000 on channel 2, for example)
> 
> $encoder 49  #Osc 1 Waveform - DW on channel 2
>    .minmax 0 16
>    .tx $F0 $42 $31 $03 $41 $02 val $F7
> 
> This should work
>   (You can use # or // to add comments in my editor and then print out a
> list to show what each button and encoder does)
> 
> >
> > Somebody else was telling me the BCR2000 will work as long as the
> > synth's sysex commands aren't too long.
> 
> The BCR can have a  MIDI message or a few MIDI messages  that are, in
> total, 123 bytes or less.
> This is OK for sysex parameter change. Anything bigger would really slow
> things down.
> You wouldn't send sysex data for a whole a patch and that is where the
> sysex messages get big.
> As you can see your message only took 8 bytes so you could nearly have
> 16 message on the one encoder so you didn't have to remember what
> channel the DW-800 was on :^)
> $encoder 49  #Osc 1 Waveform - DW on channel 2 and channel 3 (0 is
> channel 1)
>    .minmax 0 16
>    .tx $F0 $42 $31 $03 $41 $02 val $F7 $F0 $42 $32 $03 $41 $02 val $F7
> 
> 
> Hope this helps
>


woah... thanks a lot for that.  I finally received the bcr2000 today.
 I'm a little disappointed at how large this thing is.  Anyways I just
downloaded your editor and I'm having trouble so far...

All I did so far was copy/paste your example command into the default
script, replacing what was already there for encoder 49.


$encoder 49  #Osc 1 Waveform - DW on channel 2
  .minmax 0 16
  .tx $F0 $42 $31 $03 $41 $02 val $F7



I then pressed "send" at which point I see the midi in light on the
bcr2000 light up for a couple seconds.  I have midi-out of the
bcr-2000 going into the midi-in on the DW-8000.  Rotating encoder 49
isn't changing OSC1 waveform. 

The Midi Channel is set to 2.

I still don't really understand that sysex string.... but I just
noticed that you uploaded a DW-6000 patch.  I'm going to try and study
that to see what I can figure out.  Thanks

Eugene

Re: Can the BCR2000 ouput sysex program change messages?

2007-06-15 by rpcfender

Hi Eugene
sounds like you are ready to jump in the deep end. 8)

> All I did so far was copy/paste your example command into the default
> script, replacing what was already there for encoder 49.
>
>
> $encoder 49 #Osc 1 Waveform - DW on channel 2
> .minmax 0 16
> .tx $F0 $42 $31 $03 $41 $02 val $F7

By the way I think parameter 2 is Osc1 level according to the manual not the Osc1 waveform - the parameter numbers do start at 0 unlike the MIDI channel (0 means MIDI channel 1)
The value can be 0 to 32 so

$rev R1
$encoder 49 #Osc 1 Volume - DW on channel 2
.showvalue on
.resolution 96 96 96 96
.minmax 0 32
.default 0
.tx $F0 $42 $31 $03 $41 $02 val $F7
$end

Copy and send this and try it out.
It doesn't change anything else on the BCR except encoder 49 (bottom left most one)
The leds around the encoder should light as you turn it and if you have the BCR set to any of the Solo modes you should see the MidiOut (A or B or both) light up

>
>
>
> I then pressed "send" at which point I see the midi in light on the
> bcr2000 light up for a couple seconds. I have midi-out of the
> bcr-2000 going into the midi-in on the DW-8000. Rotating encoder 49
> isn't changing OSC1 waveform.
>
> The Midi Channel is set to 2.

What mode is the BCR in? If you have just unpacked it, it will likely be in USB-1 mode. Good to download the script, but it won't output your data from turning the encoder to the Midi ports at the back.

What is your setup?
I'll assume that you using the BCR as your only MIDI interface .
(My PC has a MidiSport 4x4 connected as well as the BCR)

Do either of the MIDI Out (A or B) Leds light up on any of the other BCR patches.?
If not nothing is coming out of you BCR change to Solo-1 (S-1)
Hold down Edit, press Store. Now you are in global edit mode.
Turn the top left encoder (1) till the display shows "S-1".
Press Exit and the unit takes a few seconds to get itself together and you should be in business. In S-1 mode Midi comes out both the A and B ports

If you don't already have it, get a copy of MidiOx (it will let you look at what is going in and out of the MIDI ports.)
It's great, free and just about everyone uses it.
http://www.midiox.com/

Unfortunately there is no mode that sends the data (from the encoder) out the Midi ports and the USB port.
USB-3 will work if you use MidiOx
In this mode when you look at the Midi Devices option in the MIDIOx menu you will see BCR2000[01] in the output list as well as the input list. These are the in and out of the USB. There will also be BCR2000[01] OUT A and BCR2000[01] OUT B. Obviously the the 2 MIDI plugs on the back and finally BCR2000[01] IN A (the other plug on the back).
Connect from BCR2000[01] (the input) to BCR2000[01] OUT A
(Note that if you change the mode on the BCR you will have to close MidiOx and start it again. You are also likely to see a different number of interfaces in the list)
When you twist the encoder the data should be displayed on the PC and it will echo out the MIDI A port to the Korg

When you get the BCR patch(es) all sorted out, change the BCR to the S-1 mode and you can work the Korg without the PC.

.tx $F0 $42 $31 $03 $41 $02 val $F7 should give you a stream of sysex messages like....
SYSEX: F0 42 31 03 41 02 00 F7
SYSEX: F0 42 31 03 41 02 01 F7
SYSEX: F0 42 31 03 41 02 02 F7
SYSEX: F0 42 31 03 41 02 03 F7
SYSEX: F0 42 31 03 41 02 04 F7
SYSEX: F0 42 31 03 41 02 05 F7

with the MIDI port details between each line
(MidiOX iusually displays in Hex but without the "$")



>
> I still don't really understand that sysex string.... but I just
> noticed that you uploaded a DW-6000 patch. I'm going to try and study
> that to see what I can figure out. Thanks

If you send rubbish to the BCR it just ignores it and flashes 'Err" so just hack away, you'll get it.

Royce

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