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real ring modulator

real ring modulator

2008-06-04 by anthonybuckalew

Ken,

I am not in the know about ring modulators and therefore fall under
the category of "this is not for you" bu I really want to understand
it better. I am intrested in the real ring modulator design because
its at the core of the lovetone ring stinger pedal of which I am
intrested in and studying. If your willing to just point me in the
direction for self study that would nice. I want to know what
additional circuitry is needed to make this a "plug in guitar and get
a sound".

thank you for your consideration,


Tony

Re: real ring modulator

2008-06-04 by John Mahoney

At 10:13 AM 6/4/2008, anthonybuckalew wrote:
Show quoted textHide quoted text
>... what
>additional circuitry is needed to make this a "plug in guitar and get
>a sound".

You need a
CGS46 Stomp box adapter. (use a module as an effect pedal)
or a
CGS60 Stomp Box Adapter. (use effect pedal as a module)
depending on what you want to do with it.

John


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Re: real ring modulator

2008-06-05 by data2action

to use as a guitar effect, first you'll need to match the levels of the
guitar to work with the ringmod. the cgs46 stompbox adapter will do
that... so the guitar would go into the ring input cgs46; the boosted
output at SIG2 would go to the input on the ringmod; the output of the
ringmod would go to RO on the cgs46; and the ring output would to yr
guitar amplifier.

but you'll also need a carrier signal. most guitar ringmod pedals have
a vco built in as a carrier; sometimes their frequencies are modulated
by the guitar signal. in th MFOS ring modulater ray uses a simple
resonanting VCF which produces a nice sine wave, or you could build a
full VCO. either way, the simple diode ringmod starts to get more
complex...

b
Show quoted textHide quoted text

--- In cgs_synth@yahoogroups.com, "anthonybuckalew"
<anthonybuckalew@...> wrote:
>
> Ken,
>
> I am not in the know about ring modulators and therefore fall under
> the category of "this is not for you" bu I really want to understand
> it better. I am intrested in the real ring modulator design because
> its at the core of the lovetone ring stinger pedal of which I am
> intrested in and studying. If your willing to just point me in the
> direction for self study that would nice. I want to know what
> additional circuitry is needed to make this a "plug in guitar and get
> a sound".
>
> thank you for your consideration,
>
>
> Tony
>

Re: real ring modulator

2008-06-05 by Mark

On 6/5/08, data2action put forth:
>but you'll also need a carrier signal. most guitar ringmod pedals have
>a vco built in as a carrier; sometimes their frequencies are modulated
>by the guitar signal. in th MFOS ring modulater ray uses a simple
>resonanting VCF which produces a nice sine wave, or you could build a
>full VCO. either way, the simple diode ringmod starts to get more
>complex...

You can also use the guitar signal as a carrier, ring modulating the
guitar with itself. You can also square up or divide or rectify one
of the signals.

Anyway, the important thing is that the guitar sees a high impedance input.

Re: real ring modulator

2008-06-05 by John Mahoney

At 12:12 PM 6/5/2008, Mark wrote:

>On 6/5/08, data2action put forth:
> >but you'll also need a carrier signal. [snip]

Thanks, I forgot to mention that.


>You can also use the guitar signal as a carrier, ring modulating the
>guitar with itself.

Isn't that how vintage octave pedals work?


>You can also square up or divide or rectify one
>of the signals.

Ah, cool!

John


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Re: real ring modulator

2008-06-05 by Mark

On 6/5/08, John Mahoney put forth:
>
> >You can also use the guitar signal as a carrier, ring modulating the
> >guitar with itself.
>
>Isn't that how vintage octave pedals work?

Most octave pedals, as well as the dbx units, square up the signal
then divide it with a flip-flop. That's how the original Mutron
worked. You can also use logic circuits to create ring modulation
effects, but it only works with squared waves. If you are talking
about an octaver pedal (eg. Meyer Octavia), they used rectification
to double the frequency.

Re: real ring modulator

2008-06-05 by John Mahoney

At 04:52 PM 6/5/2008, Mark wrote:

>On 6/5/08, John Mahoney put forth:
> >
> > >You can also use the guitar signal as a carrier, ring modulating the
> > >guitar with itself.
> >
> >Isn't that how vintage octave pedals work?
>
>Most octave pedals, as well as the dbx units, square up the signal
>then divide it with a flip-flop. That's how the original Mutron
>worked.

Yeah, I usually call that a suboctave or an octave divider, if not a
clock divider (depending on the usage).


>You can also use logic circuits to create ring modulation
>effects, but it only works with squared waves.

The ARP Oddyssey's "ring modulator" is an XOR, as I understand.


>If you are talking
>about an octaver pedal (eg. Meyer Octavia), they used rectification
>to double the frequency.

I was. Thanks!

It would be interesting to compare rectification with
self-ring-modulation (or is it ring-self-modulation?).

John


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Re: real ring modulator

2008-06-06 by Mark

On 6/5/08, John Mahoney put forth:
>Yeah, I usually call that a suboctave or an octave divider, if not a
>clock divider (depending on the usage).

Yes, those are the terms generally used by synthesists. Among
guitarists and bassists, pedals that halve frequency are generally
called "octave pedals", and pedals that double frequency are
generally called "octaver pedals". If you check out some of the
stomp box and guitar effects diy websites, you should find plenty of
schematics.

real ring modulator

2010-11-25 by devinnolan16

will a transistor with 6 leg things work if I just don't attach the 5th leg to anything?

Re: real ring modulator

2010-11-25 by cg_synth

--- In cgs_synth@yahoogroups.com, "devinnolan16" <devinnolan16@...> wrote:
Show quoted textHide quoted text
>
> will a transistor with 6 leg things work if I just don't attach the 5th leg to anything?
>

I assume you mean transformer. If both coils have center taps, the center tap of the outer coil is not used/not connected. That would be the 5th leg.

Re: real ring modulator

2010-11-27 by devinnolan16

--- In cgs_synth@yahoogroups.com, "cg_synth" <sasami@...> wrote:
Show quoted textHide quoted text
>
>
>
> --- In cgs_synth@yahoogroups.com, "devinnolan16" <devinnolan16@> wrote:
> >
> > will a transistor with 6 leg things work if I just don't attach the 5th leg to anything?
> >
>
> I assume you mean transformer. If both coils have center taps, the center tap of the outer coil is not used/not connected. That would be the 5th leg.
> ya I did mean transformers and thank you

real ring modulator

2011-10-09 by gff_ims

Hi All , i'm about to build the RRM and use it as a frequency doubler.
Is there a need to be concerned with diode matching as a bit of carrier bleedthrough would - i think - be an advantage?
As the carrier is half the output , then the output in effect would have the octave and sub octave.Or are there other nasties produced if the carrier is not suppressd?
I am using schottky diodes 3k impedance transformers
All Comments welcome.
Regards
Geoff

Re: real ring modulator

2011-10-09 by sasami@hotkey.net.au

It shouldn't be an issue with your applications. Also, in my experience,
schottky diodes don't really need to be matched because they are already
pretty close to each other (from the same batch, at least).
Show quoted textHide quoted text
>Hi All , i'm about to build the RRM and use it as a frequency doubler.
>Is there a need to be concerned with diode matching as a bit of carrier
bleedthrough would - i think - be an advantage?
>As the carrier is half the output , then the output in effect would have
the octave and sub octave.Or are there other nasties produced if the carrier
is not suppressd?
>I am using schottky diodes 3k impedance transformers
>All Comments welcome.
>Regards
>Geoff
>
>
>
>------------------------------------
>
>The CGS Modular Synth home page: http://www.cgs.synth.net/
>Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
_______________________________________________________________________
Ken Stone sasami@... otherunicorn@...
Modular Synth PCBs for sale <http://www.cgs.synth.net/>
Australian Miniature Horses & Ponies <http://www.blaze.net.au/~sasami/>

Re: real ring modulator

2011-10-12 by Michael Kelley

On the topic...a solid supplier link for Diodes 1N34A
http://www.cpcares.com/NTE/diodeBulk/1N34A-10.html
Happy Building : ) - Mike


________________________________
Show quoted textHide quoted text
From: "sasami@..." <sasami@...>
To: cgs_synth@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Sunday, October 9, 2011 12:17 AM
Subject: Re: [cgs_synth] real ring modulator



It shouldn't be an issue with your applications. Also, in my experience,
schottky diodes don't really need to be matched because they are already
pretty close to each other (from the same batch, at least).
>Hi All , i'm about to build the RRM and use it as a frequency doubler.
>Is there a need to be concerned with diode matching as a bit of carrier
bleedthrough would - i think - be an advantage?
>As the carrier is half the output , then the output in effect would have
the octave and sub octave.Or are there other nasties produced if the carrier
is not suppressd?
>I am using schottky diodes 3k impedance transformers
>All Comments welcome.
>Regards
>Geoff
>
>
>
>------------------------------------
>
>The CGS Modular Synth home page: http://www.cgs.synth.net/
>Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
__________________________________________________________
Ken Stone sasami@... otherunicorn@...
Modular Synth PCBs for sale <http://www.cgs.synth.net/>
Australian Miniature Horses & Ponies <http://www.blaze.net.au/~sasami/>




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

real ring modulator

2011-10-25 by gff_ims

Hi All , have i got this right?
Using the RRM as a freq. doubler , if i have a 1V p-p signal at both the mod and carrier inputs and the schottky diodes each measure 250mv forward voltage drop , will the ouput be 1volt p-p?
Thanks in advance.
Regards

Re: real ring modulator

2011-10-25 by sasami@hotkey.net.au

I can't tell you what the output will be because there will also be other
losses in the system. It would be best to measure it.
Ken
Show quoted textHide quoted text
>Hi All , have i got this right?
>Using the RRM as a freq. doubler , if i have a 1V p-p signal at both the
mod and carrier inputs and the schottky diodes each measure 250mv forward
voltage drop , will the ouput be 1volt p-p?
>Thanks in advance.
>Regards
>
>
>
>------------------------------------
>
>The CGS Modular Synth home page: http://www.cgs.synth.net/
>Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
_______________________________________________________________________
Ken Stone sasami@... otherunicorn@...
Modular Synth PCBs for sale <http://www.cgs.synth.net/>
Australian Miniature Horses & Ponies <http://www.blaze.net.au/~sasami/>

Re: real ring modulator

2011-10-28 by geoff james

Hi Ken , thanks for your reply. I should have mentioned that my soldering iron and test equipment are in storage , so i'm not able to buid the rrm or measure output.What other losses would you expect?Regardsgeoff
To: cgs_synth@yahoogroups.com
From: sasami@...
Date: Tue, 25 Oct 2011 04:03:55 +0000
Subject: Re: [cgs_synth] real ring modulator




























I can't tell you what the output will be because there will also be other

losses in the system. It would be best to measure it.

Ken
Show quoted textHide quoted text
>Hi All , have i got this right?

>Using the RRM as a freq. doubler , if i have a 1V p-p signal at both the

mod and carrier inputs and the schottky diodes each measure 250mv forward

voltage drop , will the ouput be 1volt p-p?

>Thanks in advance.

>Regards

>

>

>

>------------------------------------

>

>The CGS Modular Synth home page: http://www.cgs.synth.net/

>Yahoo! Groups Links

>

>

>

>

__________________________________________________________

Ken Stone sasami@... otherunicorn@...

Modular Synth PCBs for sale <http://www.cgs.synth.net/>

Australian Miniature Horses & Ponies <http://www.blaze.net.au/~sasami/>


















[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Re: real ring modulator

2011-10-28 by sasami@hotkey.net.au

You can't guarentee what the diode drop will be - it will vary with current.
You will also have the loading effect of the transformer coils on whatever
you are driving, and unless it is very low impedance, you will lose there too.

Ken
Show quoted textHide quoted text
>Hi Ken , thanks for your reply. I should have mentioned that my soldering
iron and test equipment are in storage , so i'm not able to buid the rrm or
measure output.What other losses would you expect?Regardsgeoff
> To: cgs_synth@yahoogroups.com
>From: sasami@...
>Date: Tue, 25 Oct 2011 04:03:55 +0000
>Subject: Re: [cgs_synth] real ring modulator
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> I can't tell you what the output will be because there will also be other
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>losses in the system. It would be best to measure it.
>
>Ken
>
>
>
>>Hi All , have i got this right?
>
>>Using the RRM as a freq. doubler , if i have a 1V p-p signal at both the
>
>mod and carrier inputs and the schottky diodes each measure 250mv forward
>
>voltage drop , will the ouput be 1volt p-p?
>
>>Thanks in advance.
>
>>Regards
>
>>
>
>>
>
>>
>
>>------------------------------------
>
>>
>
>>The CGS Modular Synth home page: http://www.cgs.synth.net/
>
>>Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>>
>
>>
>
>>
>
>>
>
>__________________________________________________________
>
>Ken Stone sasami@... otherunicorn@...
>
>Modular Synth PCBs for sale <http://www.cgs.synth.net/>
>
>Australian Miniature Horses & Ponies <http://www.blaze.net.au/~sasami/>
>
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>[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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>
>
>------------------------------------
>
>The CGS Modular Synth home page: http://www.cgs.synth.net/
>Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
_______________________________________________________________________
Ken Stone sasami@... otherunicorn@...
Modular Synth PCBs for sale <http://www.cgs.synth.net/>
Australian Miniature Horses & Ponies <http://www.blaze.net.au/~sasami/>

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