Thanks for that conversion link and the numbers.
I'm too old also, 60, and putting in 12-14 hours the last 6 days on this has taken its toll! I need a rest, like cutting grass!
There doesn't seem to be much more to discuss on this until I do some profile editing as you suggest. Yes, Canon does something with their driver to make it right for their paper and inks. I learned a lot from all these discussions and that will help me in progressing with this next week. I'm not giving up.
On the softproofing versus non-softproofing, both match perfectly! The softproof doesn't match the printer output that's where the whole issue is. I need now to make the softproof image match the printer with profile editing, but that ruins the ease of photo editing as the non-softproof editing image is now not going to look like the softproof image.
I'll post some more results next week.....
Thanks again,
Bob P.
At 12:53 AM 9/4/2009, you wrote:
Hi Bob,
Im too old to think in LAB, so I converted to RGB using this online calculator:
http://www.brucelindbloom.com/index.html?ColorCalcHelp.html
The resulting RGB values are printed next to your measured values. CD is certainly correct, The Spyder values are very neutral. I dont think you can improve on them (Dont know what happened on that last measurement.)
For the Canon numbers, they are slightly biased towards blue. This may have been done deliberately by Canon. Its like the laundry detergents that have bluing agents in them to make the whites look whiter.
If you like the Canon grays better, you might look at the adjustments in the DataColor software; I think they have an adjustment preset for cool1 or cool2. I think these will give a blue bias but you might like the look better.
As to matching monitor-to-print. You want to match the soft proof to the print, not the monitor (no soft proof) to the print. I think CD mentioned this. The reason is that the monitor and printer have different capabilities. The printers capabilities are usually less than the monitor (ink/paper limits) so your profile has to take the monitor colors and bring them within the capabilities of the printer. The soft proof tries to simulate this process. I think you said you have PhotoShop. If you do, it might be interesting to soft proof the image in Photoshop with the Spyder profile and the Canon profile to see any differences.
It is possible that Canon manipulates their profiles to make photos look better or pop. The no adjustment profile that Spyder produces is designed to be faithful; enhancing is left to the post-processing. Again, adjustments to the profile development are available in Spyder3Print. The nice thing about this software is you can reuse the existing measurements to try different settings and see what happens to the soft proof.
I dont know if Ive been of any help, but at least we know that the Spyder is producing a mechanically neutral grey.
Bob Schoner
From: datacolor_group@...m [ mailto:datacolor_group@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Cdtobie
Sent: Thursday, September 03, 2009 8:35 PM
To: datacolor_group@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [datacolor_group] Re: Spyder3Print profiles worse than standard Canon driver?
Your Spyder profile grays aren't quite as neutral as they would be with a pigment printer with multiple grays, but they tend to be within two units of neutral (an excellent printer/paper combo can manage to get them all within one unit of neutral). The Canon canned profiles have a bias towards red (positive a) and a HUGE bias towards blue (negative b). Interesting that these results could be seen as better... The Spyder is definately doing it's job. Oh, and while you see the grays as weak in the Spyder profile, the midgray measures as a bit darker than the Canon midgray; though both are very close to a middle density.
C. D. Tobie
Global Product Technology Mngr.
Digital Imaging & Home Theater
Datacolor.com
CDTobie@...
On Sep 3, 2009, at 11:06 PM, Bob Petruska <petruska@... > wrote:
Bob, Dave....
OK, I performed the grey block measurements. Just so we are all clear, these are the grey blocks for the B/W photo with the church and boat.
I first calibrated the Spectro a few times and measured the white disk in the Spectro base.
L 90.24
a -1.05
b -1.16
Canon Photo Paper Pro paper white measurement.
L 95.51 R 240 G 242 B247
a 0.30
b -2.85
Now the following are the two large grey and black blocks at the bottom to the left of the word datacolor.
Grey.
L 48.28 R119 G113 B114
a 2.13
b 0.52
Black.
L 8.22
a -0.34
b -4.66
I also measured 4 of the grey blocks in the two rows of grey blocks at the bottom.
Top Left
L 91.59 R230 G231 B233
a 0.11
b -1.05
Top Right
L 56.78 R137 G135 B140
a 1.63
b -2.25
Bottom Left
L 50.47 R122 G119 B122
a 1.53
b -1.05
Bottom Right...
L 32.12 R58.7 G78.5 B87.5 ??????
a -5.23
b -7.75
I measured the same blocks using the Canon standard driver...
Grey
L 50.84 R119 G 120 B137
a 3.17
-b 9.29
Black
L 7.10
a 1.37
b -5.26
Top Left
L 94.89 R239 G240 B245
a 0.73
b -2.48
Top Right
L 54.11 R128 G128 B143
a 2.87
b -8.10
Bottom Left
L 52.77 R124 G125 B141
a 3.16
b -8.66
Bottom Right
L 10.40 R21.7 G29 B36
a -1.01
b -6.20
The B/W photo on the monitor looks great, neutral, grey.
The Spyder ICC profile print doesn't even look close, more of a weaker grey appearance with an extremely faint tint that looks like it is heading towards red.
The Canon Standard driver print is a very close match with an extremely faint tint heading towards blue.
I also printed out a photo of a blood red car on green grass, the Spyder profile printed more of an orange red and light green grass compared to the monitor image, were the Canon standard driver printed the red car and green grass the correct monitor colors.
Bob, the Canon Pro 9000 has the same 6 inks as the I950 but with two additional red and green inks, sorry no grey.
I hope that all this helps determine where I'm going wrong.
CD, yes the 9500 is probably going to give me more of a match, but most of the people I shoot these photos for want gloss.
Regards,
Bob P.
At 06:21 PM 9/3/2009, you wrote:
Yes, you can use the larger medium gray patch in the lower left image in SpyderProof, printed directly from Spyder3Print, to check measured neutrality of midtones. Actually, any point in that image will give you a neutrality measurement.
C. D. Tobie
Global Product Technology Mngr.
Digital Imaging & Home Theater
Datacolor.com
CDTobie@...
On Sep 3, 2009, at 3:59 PM, Bob Petruska < petruska@... > wrote:
Bob S.
What grey color would you like me to measure and how do I do that?
Should I go into Photoshop and make a grey square with designated RGB values?
Then print the square using my Spyder generated profile, then measure using the Spectro?
Thanks,
Bob P.
At 03:17 PM 9/3/2009, you wrote:
-----Original Message-----
From: datacolor_group@yahoogroups.com
[ mailto:datacolor_group@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of C D Tobie
Sent: Thursday, September 03, 2009 9:04 AM
To: datacolor_group@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [datacolor_group] Re: Spyder3Print profiles worse than standard
Canon driver? [1 Attachment]
On Sep 2, 2009, at 11:19 PM, Bob Petruska wrote:
>; Ran the same as 2 above, got the same results; printout is slightly
> color saturated, towards red tint, soft-proof slightly washed out
> and fixed it with the soft-proof black level. Canon Standard Driver
> matches the original image very well. I would like to say that this
> printer is one huge printer and I really can't see any printout
> detail differences against the I950.
As for color tint, we really can't talk about that without discussing
what lighting is involved.
Hi CD,
Thanks for monitoring this site the way you do, it is very informative.
As for the tint that Bob P is experiencing, could he measure a grey patch
with the Spyder Spectro and report the results? This would remove any
lighting consideration and maybe give a clue as to how to correct. Or, am I
off base here?
Thanks,
Bob Schoner
=