Datacolor User to User Support Group.

In the past week, I've profiled a few papers with the 225 patch target
and today started to add Extended Grays to the profiles. Since I'm
color-challenged, I read all targets twice and use the PFP Readings
Compare program in the files section to get each pair within a couple
of Delta-E.  After tossing a couple of incompatible papers, I've no
real complaints, but a question.

When looking at bars to the left of the MacBeth ColorChecker Chart in
the color test image, I was surprised that two matte-surface papers
had better resolution using the profiles built without the use of
Extended Grays, Epson HW Matte and Epson Watercolor.  If I didn't use
Extended Grays, these two had the best resolution of any non-luster
papers I've tried, but that advantage is gone if I include EGs in the
profiles.  Confusing.

Printer: HP B9180 with OEM inks.

Any thoughts?

Thanks

Ed

For some reason the extended grays do that on some of my profiles with
specific papers only. What I do is go to the next stage (the large target on
3 pages and then add the extended grays. I actually pick up the problem in
the soft proof before I print, I have gone ahead and printed and the problem
is in the final print. But, like I said this is only on a few papers and
most of the time my profiles are better than the ones provided by the print
& paper manufacturers. In most cases the expert 225 patch target seems to
blend colors better than the large target.

From: colorvision_group@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:colorvision_group@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of edknight_w
Sent: Tuesday, October 23, 2007 1:01 PM
To: colorvision_group@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [colorvision_group] Extended Grays reducing Print Resolution

 

In the past week, I've profiled a few papers with the 225 patch target
and today started to add Extended Grays to the profiles. Since I'm
color-challenged, I read all targets twice and use the PFP Readings
Compare program in the files section to get each pair within a couple
of Delta-E. After tossing a couple of incompatible papers, I've no
real complaints, but a question.

When looking at bars to the left of the MacBeth ColorChecker Chart in
the color test image, I was surprised that two matte-surface papers
had better resolution using the profiles built without the use of
Extended Grays, Epson HW Matte and Epson Watercolor. If I didn't use
Extended Grays, these two had the best resolution of any non-luster
papers I've tried, but that advantage is gone if I include EGs in the
profiles. Confusing.

Printer: HP B9180 with OEM inks.

Any thoughts?

Thanks

Ed

 

__________ NOD32 2608 (20071023) Information __________

This message was checked by NOD32 antivirus system.
http://www.eset.com

Hi, CD....

On the comment, "...update to Spyder3Print software on our website, 
and you'll get a whole new set of test images to work with..."

If I have printed profiles from PFP 2.1, can I still profile them on 
S3P?

John



--- In colorvision_group@yahoogroups.com, CDTobie@... wrote:
>
> 
> In a message dated 10/23/07 7:33:09 PM, edknight@... writes:
> 
> 
> > When looking at bars to the left of the MacBeth ColorChecker 
Chart in
> > the color test image, I was surprised that two matte-surface 
papers
> > had better resolution using the profiles built without the use of
> > Extended Grays, Epson HW Matte and Epson Watercolor.  If I didn't 
use
> > Extended Grays, these two had the best resolution of any non-
luster
> > papers I've tried, but that advantage is gone if I include EGs in 
the
> > profiles.  Confusing.
> > 
> > Printer: HP B9180 with OEM inks.
> > 
> > 
> 
> More info in profile data is equivalent to less smoothness. If you 
define the 
> exact height of a road every foot along the way with a transit, you 
will get 
> more literal flatness, but you may get less smoothness than if you 
just let 
> the steamroller roll it all out, with reference measurements every 
20 feet. Same 
> with a profile. You are adding a LOT of gray data, so grays will be 
more 
> literal. They will thus be less smooth in some cases. If you prefer 
the smoothness 
> over the literal neutralness, then thats a case where you want to 
use a 
> profile from a target with fewer patches. This is a universal issue 
with ICC 
> profiles, not specific to ours. By the way, update to Spyder3Print 
software on our 
> website, and you'll get a whole new set of test images to work 
with...
> 
> C. David Tobie
> Product Technology Manager
> Digital Color Solutions
> Datacolor
> CDTobie@...
> www.spyder3.com
> 
> 
> ************************************** See what's new at 
http://www.aol.com
>

>Hi, CD....
>
>On the comment, "...update to Spyder3Print software on our website,
>and you'll get a whole new set of test images to work with..."
>
>If I have printed profiles from PFP 2.1, can I still profile them on
>S3P?
>
>John
>

All existing measurement files, from all versions of PrintFIX PRO,
will work with Spyder3Print. Just follow the instructions in the Update
Notes on how to copy and move them from the old location to the new.

(Any existing measurement files will be in PrintFIX PRO's Data:PRO subfolder.
Copy them to another location, and then after you install Spyder3Print,
move them into its Data:Print subfolder).

Any existing target PRINTS that you made with PrintFIX PRO will still
be measurable with Spyder3Print. There haven't been any changes in the
target formats.

-- 
David Miller
Senior Software Developer, Digital Color Solutions
ColorVision

Thanks, Randy

Based on your message, I read the expert (large) target on Epson HW
Matte and then added Extended Grays. Using a loupe, I could still see
higher resolution on the 225 patch target without Extended Grays,
though all looked the same without magnification.  However, checking
with the Windows color applet, I see that the large target with grays
 creates a profile with a slightly larger gamut (Again, not noticeable
to my eyes on the test file).


--- In colorvision_group@yahoogroups.com, "Randy Gentry"
<gentryr001@...> wrote:
>
> For some reason the extended grays do that on some of my profiles with
> specific papers only. What I do is go to the next stage (the large
target on
> 3 pages and then add the extended grays. I actually pick up the
problem in
> the soft proof before I print, I have gone ahead and printed and the
problem
> is in the final print. But, like I said this is only on a few papers and
> most of the time my profiles are better than the ones provided by
the print
> & paper manufacturers. In most cases the expert 225 patch target
seems to

> blend colors better than the large target.
> 
>  
> 
> From: colorvision_group@yahoogroups.com
> [mailto:colorvision_group@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of edknight_w
> Sent: Tuesday, October 23, 2007 1:01 PM
> To: colorvision_group@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [colorvision_group] Extended Grays reducing Print Resolution
> 
>  
> 
> In the past week, I've profiled a few papers with the 225 patch target
> and today started to add Extended Grays to the profiles. Since I'm
> color-challenged, I read all targets twice and use the PFP Readings
> Compare program in the files section to get each pair within a couple
> of Delta-E. After tossing a couple of incompatible papers, I've no
> real complaints, but a question.
> 
> When looking at bars to the left of the MacBeth ColorChecker Chart in
> the color test image, I was surprised that two matte-surface papers
> had better resolution using the profiles built without the use of
> Extended Grays, Epson HW Matte and Epson Watercolor. If I didn't use
> Extended Grays, these two had the best resolution of any non-luster
> papers I've tried, but that advantage is gone if I include EGs in the
> profiles. Confusing.
> 
> Printer: HP B9180 with OEM inks.
> 
> Any thoughts?
> 
> Thanks
> 
> Ed
> 
>  
> 
> __________ NOD32 2608 (20071023) Information __________
> 
> This message was checked by NOD32 antivirus system.
> http://www.eset.com
>

I've read a few gray patches (0, 25%, 50% and 75%) printed through
both HQ and Expert profiles with Extended Grays looking for color
shifts since my color vision isn't too good.  Will try full ramps
later.  I find that the 4 profiled print patches generally reading
closer to neutral than the HP's built-in profile for their own
advanced glossy paper(B9180 Printer) or most of my "paper whites". 
Most a* and b* readings are <1 with a very few in the 2-3 range. I
don't know the math of DeltaE, so I don't know how much drift on the
a* or b* channel is considered too much for neutral grays.

Thanks for your help and education.

Ed 



-- In colorvision_group@...m, CDTobie@... wrote:
>
> 
> In a message dated 10/26/07 8:34:05 AM, edknight@... writes:
> 
> 
> > Based on your message, I read the expert (large) target on Epson HW
> > Matte and then added Extended Grays. Using a loupe, I could still see
> > higher resolution on the 225 patch target without Extended Grays,
> > though all looked the same without magnification.  However, checking
> > with the Windows color applet, I see that the large target with grays
> > creates a profile with a slightly larger gamut (Again, not noticeable
> > to my eyes on the test file).
> > 
> 
> The 729 patch target is (mostly) about additional colors in the
saturated 
> zones, read gamut edges. The extended grays is about more
information in the near 
> grays zone. The two combined add lots of patches throughout the
color space, 
> and especially in the near gray zone. Your definition of higher
resolution is 
> not based on the accuracy of the grays in question, but rather the
number of 
> them in a given ramp. Adjusting colors (including grays) for
accuracy may 
> adversely effect smoothness. To use a check that considers ALL the
factors, you 
> would have to print each gray patch large enough to measure, and
check the 
> NEUTALITY of each, as well as how many distinct levels are present.
Adding patches 
> trades off one for the other, to some degree. Your analysis looks at
the color 

> values, not smoothness, of the added colors, and (inversely) the gray 
> smoothness, not the color values, of the grays.
> 
> C. David Tobie
> Product Technology Manager
> Digital Color Solutions
> Datacolor
> CDTobie@...
> www.spyder3.com
> 
> 
> **************************************
>  See what's new at 
> http://www.aol.com
>