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1A higher L* than 1B, what to do..?

1A higher L* than 1B, what to do..?

2007-12-22 by oisteinthomassen

Hi,

I am using an Epson 2100 with Lyson CavePaint (PhotoChrome) CIS. When 
printing the target on glossy papers, e.g. the new Ilford Gold Fiber 
Silk (baryta) and Innova Fiba Gloss, the 1A patch comes out brighter 
(L=6,9) than the 1B patch (L=5,8). This is after a couple of rounds 
with hahnemuhle protective spray (before spraying, the 1A patch is 
considerably brighter than 1B! almost grayish). Could this make 
problems for the profiling process? I often have problems with shadow 
details, and one solution for this has been to open up the levels 
output slider in Photoshop (e.g. from 0 to somewhere between 10 and 
20). Thanks in advance for any comments.

Oistein

Re: 1A higher L* than 1B, what to do..?

2007-12-22 by oisteinthomassen

Let me add that I'm using Spyder3print.. anyone? Should I reduce the 
ink density (this is possible in the Epson 2100 printer driver)?

 


--- In colorvision_group@yahoogroups.com, "oisteinthomassen" 
<oisteinthomassen@...> wrote:
Show quoted textHide quoted text
>
> Hi,
> 
> I am using an Epson 2100 with Lyson CavePaint (PhotoChrome) CIS. When 
> printing the target on glossy papers, e.g. the new Ilford Gold Fiber 
> Silk (baryta) and Innova Fiba Gloss, the 1A patch comes out brighter 
> (L=6,9) than the 1B patch (L=5,8). This is after a couple of rounds 
> with hahnemuhle protective spray (before spraying, the 1A patch is 
> considerably brighter than 1B! almost grayish). Could this make 
> problems for the profiling process? I often have problems with shadow 
> details, and one solution for this has been to open up the levels 
> output slider in Photoshop (e.g. from 0 to somewhere between 10 and 
> 20). Thanks in advance for any comments.
> 
> Oistein
>

Re: 1A higher L* than 1B, what to do..?

2007-12-23 by John Vitollo

--- In colorvision_group@yahoogroups.com, "oisteinthomassen" <oisteinthomassen@...> 
wrote:
>
> Silk (baryta) and Innova Fiba Gloss, the 1A patch comes out brighter 
> (L=6,9) than the 1B patch (L=5,8). 

That's a very common symptom when there is too much ink being laid down on the paper. 
What media setting are you using?  Have you used the "Print Quality Check" with different 
media type to determine the best media type? This should be your first step.

Re: 1A higher L* than 1B, what to do..?

2007-12-23 by John Vitollo

--- In colorvision_group@yahoogroups.com, "John Vitollo" <jvlist@...> wrote:
>
> --- In colorvision_group@yahoogroups.com, "oisteinthomassen" <oisteinthomassen@> 
> wrote:
> >
> > Silk (baryta) and Innova Fiba Gloss, the 1A patch comes out brighter 
> > (L=6,9) than the 1B patch (L=5,8). 
> 
> That's a very common symptom when there is too much ink being laid down on the 
paper. 
> What media setting are you using?  Have you used the "Print Quality Check" with 
different 
> media type to determine the best media type? This should be your first step.

Also...

Here's a test a did a while ago to find the best media setting:

Try exploring media settings to open shadows...

I recently tested to find the "best" media setting for William Turner paper on my Epson 
4800.

Epson's black usually comes in hard and fast, less so with the newest printers, and I 
wanted to find the media setting that has smoothest black ramp from 100% to 90%.

I printed a ten patch gray ramp from 100% to 90% with five media settings.

My Excel results are below for William Turner on the Epson 4800:

http://homepage.mac.com/johnvito/WilliamTurnerMediaSettings.png

From 100% to 90% only two media settings show fairly smooth linear density loss albeit 
stepped at times. While the other three actually have spiked increases in density - called 
reversals - on some patches. For example Epson's Enhanced media setting has the same 
density at the following patches: 100%, 99% and 97%. The 98% patch has a lower density 
than 97% patch and another reversal at 94%.

My media setting choice for William Turner was UltraSmooth as it has the most smoothest 
linear path. The custom paper profile will have less heavy lifting to do once the "best 
media type" is found.

Re: [colorvision_group] Re: 1A higher L* than 1B, what to do..?

2007-12-23 by CDTobie@aol.com


In a message dated 12/22/07 6:45:02 PM, oisteinthomassen@... writes:


Let me add that I'm using Spyder3print.. anyone? Should I reduce the
ink density (this is possible in the Epson 2100 printer driver)?


What you are describing is a situation where ink black is not as dark as a "rich" black blend from whatever CMY Plus Black the driver offers just before black. You should start by trying other media settings (including ones that might not sound logical) to see if you can get a more linear result near black with some other setting. Next, you could consider moving to a paper that offers better blacks. And finally, you could consider adjusting the ink density slider, though it will have other effects you may not be happy with.

If you don't get the result you want from any of these, then its possible to sometimes improve profile results by "tricking" the profile, by reading the second patch twice, and never reading the first patch. And you could just give up and use the "rich" black for your blacks by creating a curve where the composite curve ends a bit above black, so blacks are mapped to that dark blend. This curve can be created as a Photoshop RGB .acv curve, and once you have it just right, can be imported into Spyder3Print and applied to your paper profile to "fix" the issue at the profile level, instead of at the image level.

C. David Tobie
Product Technology Manager
Digital Imaging & Home Theater
Datacolor Inc.
CDTobie@datacolor.com
www.datacolor.com/spyder3



**************************************
See AOL's top rated recipes (http://food.aol.com/top-rated-recipes?NCID=aoltop00030000000004)

Re: 1A higher L* than 1B, what to do..?

2007-12-26 by oisteinthomassen

Thanks a lot for your input. 

I have tried the different media options, and the differences are 
extremely subtle (premium semigloss, archival matte, glossy).

When adjusting the ink density slider to -10%, the 1A patch reads L 
7,24 (density 2,10) and the 1B patch reads L 7,47 (density 2,08). 
However, the 6K patch reads L 6,82 (density 2,12). Anyway, I made a 
profile from this target and the shadows were still blocked up with 
no details (on my calibrated and profiled NEC 2180UX I can see plenty 
of details in the shadows). I had to make an adjustment curve in 
Photoshop, opening up the dark shadows and leaving everything else as 
was. This made the print much better in terms of shadow detail. I now 
understand that printer profiling isn't just about reading patches 
and producing the ICC profile. It really needs a bit of tweaking. But 
back to the 6K patch - should I reduce the density to -15% and check 
if this makes the 6K patch brighter than the 1A patch? Or should I 
just go for the method you suggested (adjust the black point from 0 
to e.g. 10)? Is it normal that you have to open up the shadows by a 
curves adjustment to get shadow details in the print? I really want 
to produce a profile which is so accurate that I can rely on soft-
proofing.

Oistein
www.captureoflight.com



 
--- In colorvision_group@yahoogroups.com, CDTobie@... wrote:
>
> 
> In a message dated 12/22/07 6:45:02 PM, oisteinthomassen@... writes:
> 
> 
> > Let me add that I'm using Spyder3print.. anyone? Should I reduce 
the
> > ink density (this is possible in the Epson 2100 printer driver)?
> > 
> 
> What you are describing is a situation where ink black is not as 
dark as a 
> "rich" black blend from whatever CMY Plus Black the driver offers 
just before 
> black. You should start by trying other media settings (including 
ones that 
> might not sound logical) to see if you can get a more linear result 
near black 
> with some other setting. Next, you could consider moving to a paper 
that offers 
> better blacks. And finally, you could consider adjusting the ink 
density 
> slider, though it will have other effects you may not be happy 
with. 
> 
> If you don't get the result you want from any of these, then its 
possible to 
> sometimes improve profile results by "tricking" the profile, by 
reading the 
> second patch twice, and never reading the first patch. And you 
could just give 
> up and use the "rich" black for your blacks by creating a curve 
where the 
> composite curve ends a bit above black, so blacks are mapped to 
that dark blend. 
> This curve can be created as a Photoshop RGB .acv curve, and once 
you have it 
> just right, can be imported into Spyder3Print and applied to your 
paper profile 
> to "fix" the issue at the profile level, instead of at the image 
level.
> 
> C. David Tobie
> Product Technology Manager
> Digital Imaging & Home Theater
> Datacolor Inc.
> CDTobie@...
> www.datacolor.com/spyder3
> 
> 
> **************************************
> See AOL's top 
> rated recipes (http://food.aol.com/top-rated-recipes?
NCID=aoltop00030000000004)
>

Re: [colorvision_group] Re: 1A higher L* than 1B, what to do..?

2007-12-26 by CDTobie@aol.com


In a message dated 12/26/07 6:50:29 AM, oisteinthomassen@... writes:


Is it normal that you have to open up the shadows by a
curves adjustment to get shadow details in the print?


You are talking about an undesirable printer/paper/ink combo to begin with, but any art matte paper can profit from using the shadow detail slider to open the shadows (or your own custom curve as you have done).

C. David Tobie
Product Technology Manager
Digital Imaging & Home Theater
Datacolor Inc.
CDTobie@datacolor.com
www.datacolor.com/spyder3



**************************************
See AOL's top rated recipes (http://food.aol.com/top-rated-recipes?NCID=aoltop00030000000004)

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