Datacolor User to User Support Group.

Hello,

 I bought a Spyder3Print to make some custom profiles for our HP
DesignJets.
 Used the 729 patch and extented greys targets.

 The profiles make saturated blues to render as quite purplish
 and inspecting the generated ICC's on ColorSync Utility show that the
gamut is quite small.

 Additionally, only after doing lengthy manual adjustments I'm able to
produce
 truly neutral greys with overall pleasing colors.

 Before manual tweaking the neutral greys and colors has considerable
 cast in the a* axis (green <--> red-magenta.)
 The color of the cast varies with the media; Glossy Photo has ugly
green cast, Matte Canvas has reddish-purple cast.



 I have also a XRite spectro at my disposal, and none of the
 profiles generated with that piece of hardware/software caused
 such weird color casts. Also XRite generated ICC's
 show considerably larger and smoother gamut.


 I like the versatility of Spyder3Print spectro and the controls/fine
 tuning the Spyder3print software allows. Would like to continue using it.



 I have:
 - Always calibrated the spectro using the tile in the holder
 - D65 complying working space for visual inspection/comparison
 - Visually inspected the printed targets for each media (the blues
are in there)
 - Measured A2-size targets for each media two times - in "Measured" mode
 - Carefully looked for any inconsistencies in the measurements




 Anybody gotta clue why I'm getting such erroneous profiles?

 And is it typical that even after 729 patch + grey patch targets the
 neutral greys -- and skintones for example -- have quite considerable
colour cast?

 Am I missing something obvious?


- Richard

On Mar 25, 2008, at 12:37 PM, Richard Svensson wrote:
> Hello,
>
> I bought a Spyder3Print to make some custom profiles for our HP
> DesignJets.
> Used the 729 patch and extented greys targets.
>
> The profiles make saturated blues to render as quite purplish
> and inspecting the generated ICC's on ColorSync Utility show that the
> gamut is quite small.
>
>

That usually means that the targets weren't printed correctly,
with color management disabled. Weakly printed targets
(with color management turned on) produces a small gamut in the
resulting profile.

Can you send the measurement files to me at davem@...
so I can have a look? Use the File:Open Data command to open the
folder that contains them.
> Additionally, only after doing lengthy manual adjustments I'm able to
> produce
> truly neutral greys with overall pleasing colors.
>
>

Bad target prints, and/or bad measurements. You should never have
to do lengthy manual adjustments to build a good profile.
>
> I have also a XRite spectro at my disposal, and none of the
> profiles generated with that piece of hardware/software caused
> such weird color casts. Also XRite generated ICC's
> show considerably larger and smoother gamut.
>
>
Something tells me that those targets were printed correctly. I'm
assuming that you did RGB profiles (not CMYK) using both packages?
How did you print the XRite targets when you built profiles that way?
> I like the versatility of Spyder3Print spectro and the controls/fine
> tuning the Spyder3print software allows. Would like to continue  
> using it.
>
> I have:
> - Always calibrated the spectro using the tile in the holder
> - D65 complying working space for visual inspection/comparison
> - Visually inspected the printed targets for each media (the blues
> are in there)
> - Measured A2-size targets for each media two times - in "Measured"  
> mode
> - Carefully looked for any inconsistencies in the measurements
>
> Anybody gotta clue why I'm getting such erroneous profiles?
>
>
Have you watched the videos yet? Those will also give you plenty of  
clues:

http://spyder.datacolor.com/learn_videos.php
> And is it typical that even after 729 patch + grey patch targets the
> neutral greys -- and skintones for example -- have quite considerable
> colour cast?
>
> Am I missing something obvious?
>
>
>

Lots, I think...!


David Miller
Senior Software Developer, Digital Color Solutions
Datacolor

> > The profiles make saturated blues to render as quite purplish
> > and inspecting the generated ICC's on ColorSync Utility show that the
> > gamut is quite small.
> 
> That usually means that the targets weren't printed correctly,
> with color management disabled. Weakly printed targets
> (with color management turned on) produces a small gamut in the
> resulting profile.

I printed the Spyder3Print targets (and XRite targets for that matter)
with color management disabled (CS3: "No Color Management", Driver:
"Application Managed Colors.")


The softproofs looks kind of weird and low contrasty, could there perhaps
be  something wrong with the measured paper black/white?

What range of Lab values are generally considered sane for paper
white/black?
Or should I be just looking at the Density on the "Spot Measure" -tool?

> Can you send the measurement files to me at davem@...
> so I can have a look? Use the File:Open Data command to open the
> folder that contains them.

Emailed you you the URl to files. Did it provide any insights what
could be the problem?


> > I have also a XRite spectro at my disposal, and none of the
> > profiles generated with that piece of hardware/software caused
> > such weird color casts. Also XRite generated ICC's
> > show considerably larger and smoother gamut.
> >
> Something tells me that those targets were printed correctly. I'm
> assuming that you did RGB profiles (not CMYK) using both packages?
> How did you print the XRite targets when you built profiles that way?

Not using RIP so 16-bit RGB profiles are what I'm building.

I printed all the targets the same way straight from Photoshop CS3.
For Spyder3Print the The Expert Target (large) and Extended Grays from
Targets/ directory,
"No Color Management" on CS3 Print and same printer driver settings
(media, quality, "Application Managed Colors").

The settings on the printer itself were not touched between
printing different flavours of targets. (Except obviously
selecting correct media type when changing the media.)


> Have you watched the videos yet? Those will also give you plenty of  
> clues:
> 
> http://spyder.datacolor.com/learn_videos.php

Yep. They were very helpful with starting up and learning how to
read patches properly. As far as I can tell, I'm performing the
printing/measurement as instructed (except printing through Photoshop.)



- Richard

>
> Emailed you you the URl to files. Did it provide any insights what
> could be the problem?
>

Yes. (Detailed email in response, too look to reproduce here, but
I'll summarize for the group).

Measurements on Canvas are correct and consistent; no errors.
The measured BLACK on Canvas is very weak (L = 24) and this is the
reason for the loss of contrast in S3P's softproof. (It always
simulates black ink, unlike Photoshop, which has a control to
turn this off). There's no way to avoid this loss of contrast
in S3P's softproof for target prints which have weak blacks;
so for "better" softproofing, you need to use View:Proof Setup:
Custom in Photoshop and turn black ink simulation off. (Visible
contrast is then restored)

The gamut shape of the profile is squished vertically because
the black measurements are so light, but there's no avoiding
this. The measurements are the measurements (and they're correct)

Black is better in the glossy measurements you sent, but there
are still problems with the shape of the gamut.

(These were all done on an HP that doesn't have black ink and
which generates black from CMY inks only)

Problems with blues, printing: all of these measurement
produce profiles that will desaturate blues if you don't softproof
and print through the Saturation intent.

(much more detail in my private response, with half a dozen
screen captures of examples, gamut shapes, etc)

Also wondering if inks or need to clean the heads could be part
of this. Typically, profiles that produce gamut shapes which
are squashed or crushed in strange ways are a result of one or
more inks not working when the target print was made.


David Miller
Senior Software Developer, Digital Color Solutions
Datacolor