Datacolor User to User Support Group.

I have attached two monitors to one dual-head graphics card on Vista.
Vista recognizes them both as "Generic Non-PnP Monitor - NVIDIA
Geforce 7800 GTX". One of the displays is a 17'' Dell 1703 FPs LCD and
the other is an old 21'' Nokia Multigraph 445X CRT.

I have both calibrated and profiled these monitors using Spyder3. Then
using Spyder3Pro software (Spyderproof) I have verified that the ICC
profiles have been applied to their respective monitors. At least when
I switch back and forth between "before calibration" and "after
calibration" the looks of the screen changes on both devices (to
better). A recalibration check tells that both screens are calibrated ok.

They should now look the same, right?
No, they don't.

I even matched their brightness by trial and error (adjust, calibrate,
repeat until good). The CRT still has a yellow cast and the LCD has a
blue cast. Or maybe it's neutral, but relatively the CRT is warmer. A
lot. Then I thought that maybe the screens frame affects visual
perception. I looked at the screens through a tube to exclude
environmental effects. The CRT is warmer.

Calibration (both monitors offer RGB adjustments that adjust color,
somehow):
LCD RGB=43%,43%,50% to produce pure white measured by Spyder.
CRT RGB=56%,51%,46% measured. But if I change these *after*
calibration and profiling to 45%,40%,52% then the screens look more like.

So... adjusting RGB on these screens makes white purer on both
devices, but if I want identical colors I need to set similar
%-values. Oops. Profiling is not supposed to work like this, so what's
wrong?

Any ideas would be much appreciated. Thanks.

Several possibilities. First: you simply cannot harness a racehorse  
and a donkey together and get a working team. A CRT is a much  
different animal from an LCD, and it's just not reasonable to try to  
pair them for precision work.

Next: the fact that both displays show a change in SpyderProof does  
not actually guarantee that both have unique calibration data being  
loaded to them, and both are using unique profiles (seperate items, by  
the way). The calibration could be great as you do each screen, but  
they may be overwriting one another if the card can't manage unique  
calibration data. Try adding another card.

Third: you don't note what process you are using to calibrate, or what  
target values are involved. If you are at an inappropriate luminance  
or inappropriate whitepoint for your lighting level, then the two  
displays may be affected differently by this, being different types of  
displays.

Whatever the cause, given the configuration you are trying to match,  
you may find it necessary to calibrate to two different whitepoints to  
get the effect you want.

C. D. Tobie
WW Product Technology Mngr.
Digital Imaging & Home Theater
DataColor.com
CDTobie@...

On Jan 19, 2009, at 9:00 AM, "str_online" <str_online@...> wrote:

> I have attached two monitors to one dual-head graphics card on Vista.
> Vista recognizes them both as "Generic Non-PnP Monitor - NVIDIA
> Geforce 7800 GTX". One of the displays is a 17'' Dell 1703 FPs LCD and
> the other is an old 21'' Nokia Multigraph 445X CRT.
>
> I have both calibrated and profiled these monitors using Spyder3. Then
> using Spyder3Pro software (Spyderproof) I have verified that the ICC
> profiles have been applied to their respective monitors. At least when
> I switch back and forth between "before calibration" and "after
> calibration" the looks of the screen changes on both devices (to
> better). A recalibration check tells that both screens are  
> calibrated ok.
>
> They should now look the same, right?
> No, they don't.
>
> I even matched their brightness by trial and error (adjust, calibrate,
> repeat until good). The CRT still has a yellow cast and the LCD has a
> blue cast. Or maybe it's neutral, but relatively the CRT is warmer. A
> lot. Then I thought that maybe the screens frame affects visual
> perception. I looked at the screens through a tube to exclude
> environmental effects. The CRT is warmer.
>
> Calibration (both monitors offer RGB adjustments that adjust color,
> somehow):
> LCD RGB=43%,43%,50% to produce pure white measured by Spyder.
> CRT RGB=56%,51%,46% measured. But if I change these *after*
> calibration and profiling to 45%,40%,52% then the screens look more  
> like.
>
> So... adjusting RGB on these screens makes white purer on both
> devices, but if I want identical colors I need to set similar
> %-values. Oops. Profiling is not supposed to work like this, so what's
> wrong?
>
> Any ideas would be much appreciated. Thanks.
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>

This seems to be more complicated than I first thought.

First, I will state my aims, and then ask a few questions.

I take digital photographs. I convert these to jpegs and distribute
them for viewing on cheap consumer grade LCD screens at home. No
printing. The ambient lighting is unknown, but usually dim, and LCDs
are bright. I hope that if I adjust some tone visually to neutral
grey, then it also looks neutral grey on the recipients LCD, given
that it is reasonably grey-balanced at similar color temp that mine.

I have two screens because I want to keep editors open in one and
music player, email etc in the other. I only work with images on one
screen at a time.

------------
So... back to questions...

I initially calibrated both my CRT and my LCD to 2.2 gamma, 6500K. The
OSD on the CRT allows me to set a color temp 6000K, 6500K, 7000K (and
up). The LCD OSD has RGB sliders.

A few tries:

   Cal target Monitor OSD
CRT 2.2 6500K RGB=56,51,46%
LCD 2.2 6500K RGB=43,43,50% bad lcd-crt match
LCD 2.2 5800K RGB=56,51,46% better lcd-crt match
LCD 2.2 5500K RGB=60+,50,40-% I can't even get a neutral white here

- So I guess I should use 5800K for the LCD then? Maybe also try with
6000K for the CRT?

- Should I use 5800K or native fpr the LCD, by the way?

- Does this CRT-LCD matching have some adverse effects? Or should I
just accept that the image looks different on two screens? That there
cannot be something that's neutral grey on both screens at the same
time? References, howtos, other litterature?


--- In colorvision_group@yahoogroups.com, Cdtobie <CDTobie@...> wrote:

>
> Several possibilities. First: you simply cannot harness a racehorse  
> and a donkey together and get a working team. A CRT is a much  
> different animal from an LCD, and it's just not reasonable to try to  
> pair them for precision work.
> 
> Next: the fact that both displays show a change in SpyderProof does  
> not actually guarantee that both have unique calibration data being  
> loaded to them, and both are using unique profiles (seperate items, by  
> the way). The calibration could be great as you do each screen, but  
> they may be overwriting one another if the card can't manage unique  
> calibration data. Try adding another card.
> 
> Third: you don't note what process you are using to calibrate, or what  
> target values are involved. If you are at an inappropriate luminance  
> or inappropriate whitepoint for your lighting level, then the two  
> displays may be affected differently by this, being different types of  
> displays.
> 
> Whatever the cause, given the configuration you are trying to match,  
> you may find it necessary to calibrate to two different whitepoints to  
> get the effect you want.
> 
> C. D. Tobie
> WW Product Technology Mngr.
> Digital Imaging & Home Theater
> DataColor.com
> CDTobie@...
> 
> On Jan 19, 2009, at 9:00 AM, "str_online" <str_online@...> wrote:
> 
> > I have attached two monitors to one dual-head graphics card on Vista.
> > Vista recognizes them both as "Generic Non-PnP Monitor - NVIDIA
> > Geforce 7800 GTX". One of the displays is a 17'' Dell 1703 FPs LCD and
> > the other is an old 21'' Nokia Multigraph 445X CRT.
> >
> > I have both calibrated and profiled these monitors using Spyder3. Then
> > using Spyder3Pro software (Spyderproof) I have verified that the ICC
> > profiles have been applied to their respective monitors. At least when
> > I switch back and forth between "before calibration" and "after
> > calibration" the looks of the screen changes on both devices (to
> > better). A recalibration check tells that both screens are  
> > calibrated ok.
> >
> > They should now look the same, right?
> > No, they don't.
> >
> > I even matched their brightness by trial and error (adjust, calibrate,
> > repeat until good). The CRT still has a yellow cast and the LCD has a
> > blue cast. Or maybe it's neutral, but relatively the CRT is warmer. A
> > lot. Then I thought that maybe the screens frame affects visual
> > perception. I looked at the screens through a tube to exclude
> > environmental effects. The CRT is warmer.
> >
> > Calibration (both monitors offer RGB adjustments that adjust color,
> > somehow):
> > LCD RGB=43%,43%,50% to produce pure white measured by Spyder.
> > CRT RGB=56%,51%,46% measured. But if I change these *after*
> > calibration and profiling to 45%,40%,52% then the screens look more  
> > like.
> >
> > So... adjusting RGB on these screens makes white purer on both
> > devices, but if I want identical colors I need to set similar
> > %-values. Oops. Profiling is not supposed to work like this, so what's
> > wrong?
> >
> > Any ideas would be much appreciated. Thanks.
> >
> >
> > ------------------------------------
> >
> > Yahoo! Groups Links
> >
> >
> >
>

A few additions:

- Ambient lighting:

The ambient lighting in a 5m x 5m room consists of one 60W light bulb,
one fluorescent tube and one "warm tone" fluorescent tube. Together.
So, it's a mess, I know. This is not a lab. I can choose either
incandescent or fluorescent, though. I don't know about light levels,
but it's generally dim (and warm).

- Calibration method:

I adjust the RGB sliders on my LCD and CRT until Spyder3Pro says the
RGB levels are close enough. Then I let Spyder to profile the screens.

I forgot to mention that my CRT has both color temp and RGB sliders. I
use the sliders for calibration. Kelvins I only use in software to set
targets.


ps. I know that "everything is wrong": lcd+crt, old hardware, only one
graphics card (and consumer 3D card) and bad lighting and so on, but
still I try to get at least some improvement, with ~zero budget. In
the worst case, this just becomes a learning experience.

--- In colorvision_group@yahoogroups.com, "str_online"
<str_online@...> wrote:
>
> This seems to be more complicated than I first thought.
> 
> First, I will state my aims, and then ask a few questions.
> 
> I take digital photographs. I convert these to jpegs and distribute
> them for viewing on cheap consumer grade LCD screens at home. No
> printing. The ambient lighting is unknown, but usually dim, and LCDs
> are bright. I hope that if I adjust some tone visually to neutral
> grey, then it also looks neutral grey on the recipients LCD, given
> that it is reasonably grey-balanced at similar color temp that mine.
> 
> I have two screens because I want to keep editors open in one and
> music player, email etc in the other. I only work with images on one
> screen at a time.
> 
> ------------
> So... back to questions...
> 
> I initially calibrated both my CRT and my LCD to 2.2 gamma, 6500K. The
> OSD on the CRT allows me to set a color temp 6000K, 6500K, 7000K (and
> up). The LCD OSD has RGB sliders.
> 
> A few tries:
> 
>    Cal target Monitor OSD
> CRT 2.2 6500K RGB=56,51,46%
> LCD 2.2 6500K RGB=43,43,50% bad lcd-crt match
> LCD 2.2 5800K RGB=56,51,46% better lcd-crt match
> LCD 2.2 5500K RGB=60+,50,40-% I can't even get a neutral white here
> 
> - So I guess I should use 5800K for the LCD then? Maybe also try with
> 6000K for the CRT?
> 
> - Should I use 5800K or native fpr the LCD, by the way?
> 
> - Does this CRT-LCD matching have some adverse effects? Or should I
> just accept that the image looks different on two screens? That there
> cannot be something that's neutral grey on both screens at the same
> time? References, howtos, other litterature?
> 
> 
> --- In colorvision_group@yahoogroups.com, Cdtobie <CDTobie@> wrote:
> >
> > Several possibilities. First: you simply cannot harness a racehorse  
> > and a donkey together and get a working team. A CRT is a much  
> > different animal from an LCD, and it's just not reasonable to try to  
> > pair them for precision work.
> > 
> > Next: the fact that both displays show a change in SpyderProof does  
> > not actually guarantee that both have unique calibration data being  
> > loaded to them, and both are using unique profiles (seperate
items, by  
> > the way). The calibration could be great as you do each screen, but  
> > they may be overwriting one another if the card can't manage unique  
> > calibration data. Try adding another card.
> > 
> > Third: you don't note what process you are using to calibrate, or
what  
> > target values are involved. If you are at an inappropriate luminance  
> > or inappropriate whitepoint for your lighting level, then the two  
> > displays may be affected differently by this, being different
types of  
> > displays.
> > 
> > Whatever the cause, given the configuration you are trying to match,  
> > you may find it necessary to calibrate to two different
whitepoints to  
> > get the effect you want.
> > 
> > C. D. Tobie
> > WW Product Technology Mngr.
> > Digital Imaging & Home Theater
> > DataColor.com
> > CDTobie@
> > 
> > On Jan 19, 2009, at 9:00 AM, "str_online" <str_online@> wrote:
> > 
> > > I have attached two monitors to one dual-head graphics card on
Vista.
> > > Vista recognizes them both as "Generic Non-PnP Monitor - NVIDIA
> > > Geforce 7800 GTX". One of the displays is a 17'' Dell 1703 FPs
LCD and
> > > the other is an old 21'' Nokia Multigraph 445X CRT.
> > >
> > > I have both calibrated and profiled these monitors using
Spyder3. Then
> > > using Spyder3Pro software (Spyderproof) I have verified that the ICC
> > > profiles have been applied to their respective monitors. At
least when
> > > I switch back and forth between "before calibration" and "after
> > > calibration" the looks of the screen changes on both devices (to
> > > better). A recalibration check tells that both screens are  
> > > calibrated ok.
> > >
> > > They should now look the same, right?
> > > No, they don't.
> > >
> > > I even matched their brightness by trial and error (adjust,
calibrate,
> > > repeat until good). The CRT still has a yellow cast and the LCD
has a
> > > blue cast. Or maybe it's neutral, but relatively the CRT is
warmer. A
> > > lot. Then I thought that maybe the screens frame affects visual
> > > perception. I looked at the screens through a tube to exclude
> > > environmental effects. The CRT is warmer.
> > >
> > > Calibration (both monitors offer RGB adjustments that adjust color,
> > > somehow):
> > > LCD RGB=43%,43%,50% to produce pure white measured by Spyder.
> > > CRT RGB=56%,51%,46% measured. But if I change these *after*
> > > calibration and profiling to 45%,40%,52% then the screens look
more  
> > > like.
> > >
> > > So... adjusting RGB on these screens makes white purer on both
> > > devices, but if I want identical colors I need to set similar
> > > %-values. Oops. Profiling is not supposed to work like this, so
what's

> > > wrong?
> > >
> > > Any ideas would be much appreciated. Thanks.
> > >
> > >
> > > ------------------------------------
> > >
> > > Yahoo! Groups Links
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
>

--- In colorvision_group@yahoogroups.com, "str_online" <str_online@...> 
wrote:
> I have two screens because I want to keep editors open in one and
> music player, email etc in the other. I only work with images on one
> screen at a time

Until recently, I ran dual monitors off a dual headed Nvida card under  
WinXP - one was a CRT and one a Dell FP.  There was no way that I ever 
got the two to look the same but was able to calibrate them so that the 
FP was at least reasonable and the CRT was calibrated.  This worked 
fine as I put the primary Photoshop screen on the CRT and placed all 
the tool pallets, histograms,etc. on the LCD. This worked both under 
Spyder2 and Spyder3. As an aside, the Dell LCD always looked brighter 
and contrastier no matter what I tried to do to it than the CRT BUT the 
CRT matched the prints (using softproof).

The CRT died and I replaced it with an Eizo monitor that I can 
calibrate and the Dell still looks different even when they show as 
very close in Kelvin temperature.  The Dell is just too bright and 
there is no contrast control so just cannot fine tune it.  Again, it 
works as the second monitor. 

I tried Lightroom but have gone back to just PS for my needs at this 
point.  I believe that LR now supports dual monitors so you can do the 
same thing under it - one monitor for the image and one for the editing 
tools.

Rollin

>I tried Lightroom but have gone back to just PS for my needs at this 
>point. I believe that LR now supports dual monitors so you can do the 
>same thing under it - one monitor for the image and one for the editing 
>tools.

 

I don't think this was ever an application level limitation.  I have run LR
since the first version on a dual monitor system with the desktop expanded
across the two monitors without any problems. The main limitation, which was
an application restriction, was that the panels could not be detached and
floated to different locations  on the desktop where they could be docked.
Otherwise, I believe it has always been a hardware and operating system
support issue.   

 

To be clear, I am referring to the expanded desktop across multiple monitor
displays support and not to color management and monitor matching issues
across multiple monitor displays, which also may ultimately be grounded in
the hardware and OS and not an application level problem.

From: colorvision_group@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:colorvision_group@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Rollin
Sent: Tuesday, January 20, 2009 6:47 AM
To: colorvision_group@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [colorvision_group] Re: Two profiled monitors look different. What
now?

 

--- In colorvision_group@yahoogroups.com
<mailto:colorvision_group%40yahoogroups.com> , "str_online" <str_online@...>

wrote:
> I have two screens because I want to keep editors open in one and
> music player, email etc in the other. I only work with images on one
> screen at a time

Until recently, I ran dual monitors off a dual headed Nvida card under 
WinXP - one was a CRT and one a Dell FP. There was no way that I ever 
got the two to look the same but was able to calibrate them so that the 
FP was at least reasonable and the CRT was calibrated. This worked 
fine as I put the primary Photoshop screen on the CRT and placed all 
the tool pallets, histograms,etc. on the LCD. This worked both under 
Spyder2 and Spyder3. As an aside, the Dell LCD always looked brighter 
and contrastier no matter what I tried to do to it than the CRT BUT the 
CRT matched the prints (using softproof).

The CRT died and I replaced it with an Eizo monitor that I can 
calibrate and the Dell still looks different even when they show as 
very close in Kelvin temperature. The Dell is just too bright and 
there is no contrast control so just cannot fine tune it. Again, it 
works as the second monitor. 

I tried Lightroom but have gone back to just PS for my needs at this 
point. I believe that LR now supports dual monitors so you can do the 
same thing under it - one monitor for the image and one for the editing 
tools.

Rollin

After numerous adjustments and recalibrations ("learning"):

In the middle of the screen, where Spyder measures,
- my CRT is now at 6516 K 96 cd/m2 (max brightness and contrast)
- my LCD is now at 6555 K 191 cd/m2 (contrast 62%, brightness 30%)

The biggest difference was caused by brightness. Luminance really
alters the perceived "color", even if the color temp is the same and
monitors are calibrated. Is obvious to me, now.

The CRT has a slightly warmer picture, detectable e.g. in skin tones.
Actually, when I look at the greytone images in SpyderProof (or the
grey background image) then I can see a slight magenta cast on the
CRT. In many images it's pleasing. The LCD is greener.

I also tried to calibrate the LCD to 5800K and 5000K (CRT at 6500K)
but this just made the color balance (or whatever) less blue, more
yellow. I could not match the magenta-green part. I wonder why...

I seem to have a lot to learn :)

---------------------------------
NOTES: The worst thing is that the amount of magenta varies by
position on the CRT. In the middle it's slight, barely noticeable, but
it's worse in other parts. And lets not forget geometrical distortion.
And images cause horizontal magenta bands. The LCD on the other hand
is even, but the shadows turn to black if the LCD is viewed at 0 deg.
I need to tilt it to see shadow detail. Tilting then induces a color
cast at the other end of the LCD. Using Spyder tought me to see that
both my screens suck. I need a proper graphics monitor.

--- In colorvision_group@yahoogroups.com, "Rollin" <rhill3@...> wrote:

>
> --- In colorvision_group@yahoogroups.com, "str_online" <str_online@> 
> wrote:
> > I have two screens because I want to keep editors open in one and
> > music player, email etc in the other. I only work with images on one
> > screen at a time
> 
> Until recently, I ran dual monitors off a dual headed Nvida card under  
> WinXP - one was a CRT and one a Dell FP.  There was no way that I ever 
> got the two to look the same but was able to calibrate them so that the 
> FP was at least reasonable and the CRT was calibrated.  This worked 
> fine as I put the primary Photoshop screen on the CRT and placed all 
> the tool pallets, histograms,etc. on the LCD. This worked both under 
> Spyder2 and Spyder3. As an aside, the Dell LCD always looked brighter 
> and contrastier no matter what I tried to do to it than the CRT BUT the 
> CRT matched the prints (using softproof).
> 
> The CRT died and I replaced it with an Eizo monitor that I can 
> calibrate and the Dell still looks different even when they show as 
> very close in Kelvin temperature.  The Dell is just too bright and 
> there is no contrast control so just cannot fine tune it.  Again, it 
> works as the second monitor. 
> 
> I tried Lightroom but have gone back to just PS for my needs at this 
> point.  I believe that LR now supports dual monitors so you can do the 
> same thing under it - one monitor for the image and one for the editing 
> tools.
> 
> Rollin
>

The calibration is based on the center of the screen; it can't do  
anything about variations at other locations. Color tint difference  
between screens could well be caused by the big luminance difference  
(double!) of the two. And weak viewing angle range on LCDs is also  
beyond what calibration can control. So yes, one of the things using  
our products teaches people is the limitations of their screens...

C. D. Tobie
WW Product Technology Mngr.
Digital Imaging & Home Theater
DataColor.com
CDTobie@...

On Jan 24, 2009, at 5:48 AM, "str_online" <str_online@...> wrote:

> After numerous adjustments and recalibrations ("learning"):
>
> In the middle of the screen, where Spyder measures,
> - my CRT is now at 6516 K 96 cd/m2 (max brightness and contrast)
> - my LCD is now at 6555 K 191 cd/m2 (contrast 62%, brightness 30%)
>
> The biggest difference was caused by brightness. Luminance really
> alters the perceived "color", even if the color temp is the same and
> monitors are calibrated. Is obvious to me, now.
>
> The CRT has a slightly warmer picture, detectable e.g. in skin tones.
> Actually, when I look at the greytone images in SpyderProof (or the
> grey background image) then I can see a slight magenta cast on the
> CRT. In many images it's pleasing. The LCD is greener.
>
> I also tried to calibrate the LCD to 5800K and 5000K (CRT at 6500K)
> but this just made the color balance (or whatever) less blue, more
> yellow. I could not match the magenta-green part. I wonder why...
>
> I seem to have a lot to learn :)
>
> ---------------------------------
> NOTES: The worst thing is that the amount of magenta varies by
> position on the CRT. In the middle it's slight, barely noticeable, but
> it's worse in other parts. And lets not forget geometrical distortion.
> And images cause horizontal magenta bands. The LCD on the other hand
> is even, but the shadows turn to black if the LCD is viewed at 0 deg.
> I need to tilt it to see shadow detail. Tilting then induces a color
> cast at the other end of the LCD. Using Spyder tought me to see that
> both my screens suck. I need a proper graphics monitor.
>
> --- In colorvision_group@yahoogroups.com, "Rollin" <rhill3@...> wrote:
>>
>> --- In colorvision_group@yahoogroups.com, "str_online" <str_online@>
>> wrote:
>>> I have two screens because I want to keep editors open in one and
>>> music player, email etc in the other. I only work with images on one
>>> screen at a time
>>
>> Until recently, I ran dual monitors off a dual headed Nvida card  
>> under
>> WinXP - one was a CRT and one a Dell FP.  There was no way that I  
>> ever
>> got the two to look the same but was able to calibrate them so that  
>> the
>> FP was at least reasonable and the CRT was calibrated.  This worked
>> fine as I put the primary Photoshop screen on the CRT and placed all
>> the tool pallets, histograms,etc. on the LCD. This worked both under
>> Spyder2 and Spyder3. As an aside, the Dell LCD always looked brighter
>> and contrastier no matter what I tried to do to it than the CRT BUT  
>> the
>> CRT matched the prints (using softproof).
>>
>> The CRT died and I replaced it with an Eizo monitor that I can
>> calibrate and the Dell still looks different even when they show as
>> very close in Kelvin temperature.  The Dell is just too bright and
>> there is no contrast control so just cannot fine tune it.  Again, it
>> works as the second monitor.
>>
>> I tried Lightroom but have gone back to just PS for my needs at this
>> point.  I believe that LR now supports dual monitors so you can do  
>> the
>> same thing under it - one monitor for the image and one for the  
>> editing
>> tools.
>>
>> Rollin
>>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>

Hi everyone,

I am having a similar problem - the monitor hooked to VGA is very 
yellow, but the DVI monitor looks great. If images are optimized on 
the DVI monitor they print perfectly. The two monitors are same 
company and almost the same model. I wonder if I wouldn't get at 
least 'better' results if I assign the profile for monitor 1 to 
monitor 2.

Nita


 --- In colorvision_group@yahoogroups.com, "str_online" 
<str_online@...> wrote:
>
> A few additions:
> 
> - Ambient lighting:
> 
> The ambient lighting in a 5m x 5m room consists of one 60W light 
bulb,
> one fluorescent tube and one "warm tone" fluorescent tube. Together.
> So, it's a mess, I know. This is not a lab. I can choose either
> incandescent or fluorescent, though. I don't know about light 
levels,
> but it's generally dim (and warm).
> 
> - Calibration method:
> 
> I adjust the RGB sliders on my LCD and CRT until Spyder3Pro says the
> RGB levels are close enough. Then I let Spyder to profile the 
screens.
> 
> I forgot to mention that my CRT has both color temp and RGB 
sliders. I
> use the sliders for calibration. Kelvins I only use in software to 
set
> targets.
> 
> 
> ps. I know that "everything is wrong": lcd+crt, old hardware, only 
one
> graphics card (and consumer 3D card) and bad lighting and so on, but
> still I try to get at least some improvement, with ~zero budget. In
> the worst case, this just becomes a learning experience.
> 
> --- In colorvision_group@yahoogroups.com, "str_online"
> <str_online@> wrote:
> >
> > This seems to be more complicated than I first thought.
> > 
> > First, I will state my aims, and then ask a few questions.
> > 
> > I take digital photographs. I convert these to jpegs and 
distribute
> > them for viewing on cheap consumer grade LCD screens at home. No
> > printing. The ambient lighting is unknown, but usually dim, and 
LCDs
> > are bright. I hope that if I adjust some tone visually to neutral
> > grey, then it also looks neutral grey on the recipients LCD, given
> > that it is reasonably grey-balanced at similar color temp that 
mine.
> > 
> > I have two screens because I want to keep editors open in one and
> > music player, email etc in the other. I only work with images on 
one
> > screen at a time.
> > 
> > ------------
> > So... back to questions...
> > 
> > I initially calibrated both my CRT and my LCD to 2.2 gamma, 
6500K. The
> > OSD on the CRT allows me to set a color temp 6000K, 6500K, 7000K 
(and
> > up). The LCD OSD has RGB sliders.
> > 
> > A few tries:
> > 
> >    Cal target Monitor OSD
> > CRT 2.2 6500K RGB=56,51,46%
> > LCD 2.2 6500K RGB=43,43,50% bad lcd-crt match
> > LCD 2.2 5800K RGB=56,51,46% better lcd-crt match
> > LCD 2.2 5500K RGB=60+,50,40-% I can't even get a neutral white 
here
> > 
> > - So I guess I should use 5800K for the LCD then? Maybe also try 
with
> > 6000K for the CRT?
> > 
> > - Should I use 5800K or native fpr the LCD, by the way?
> > 
> > - Does this CRT-LCD matching have some adverse effects? Or should 
I
> > just accept that the image looks different on two screens? That 
there
> > cannot be something that's neutral grey on both screens at the 
same
> > time? References, howtos, other litterature?
> > 
> > 
> > --- In colorvision_group@yahoogroups.com, Cdtobie <CDTobie@> 
wrote:
> > >
> > > Several possibilities. First: you simply cannot harness a 
racehorse  
> > > and a donkey together and get a working team. A CRT is a much  
> > > different animal from an LCD, and it's just not reasonable to 
try to  
> > > pair them for precision work.
> > > 
> > > Next: the fact that both displays show a change in SpyderProof 
does  
> > > not actually guarantee that both have unique calibration data 
being  
> > > loaded to them, and both are using unique profiles (seperate
> items, by  
> > > the way). The calibration could be great as you do each screen, 
but  
> > > they may be overwriting one another if the card can't manage 
unique  
> > > calibration data. Try adding another card.
> > > 
> > > Third: you don't note what process you are using to calibrate, 
or
> what  
> > > target values are involved. If you are at an inappropriate 
luminance  
> > > or inappropriate whitepoint for your lighting level, then the 
two  
> > > displays may be affected differently by this, being different
> types of  
> > > displays.
> > > 
> > > Whatever the cause, given the configuration you are trying to 
match,  
> > > you may find it necessary to calibrate to two different
> whitepoints to  
> > > get the effect you want.
> > > 
> > > C. D. Tobie
> > > WW Product Technology Mngr.
> > > Digital Imaging & Home Theater
> > > DataColor.com
> > > CDTobie@
> > > 
> > > On Jan 19, 2009, at 9:00 AM, "str_online" <str_online@> wrote:
> > > 
> > > > I have attached two monitors to one dual-head graphics card on
> Vista.
> > > > Vista recognizes them both as "Generic Non-PnP Monitor - 
NVIDIA
> > > > Geforce 7800 GTX". One of the displays is a 17'' Dell 1703 FPs
> LCD and
> > > > the other is an old 21'' Nokia Multigraph 445X CRT.
> > > >
> > > > I have both calibrated and profiled these monitors using
> Spyder3. Then
> > > > using Spyder3Pro software (Spyderproof) I have verified that 
the ICC
> > > > profiles have been applied to their respective monitors. At
> least when
> > > > I switch back and forth between "before calibration" 
and "after
> > > > calibration" the looks of the screen changes on both devices 
(to
> > > > better). A recalibration check tells that both screens are  
> > > > calibrated ok.
> > > >
> > > > They should now look the same, right?
> > > > No, they don't.
> > > >
> > > > I even matched their brightness by trial and error (adjust,
> calibrate,
> > > > repeat until good). The CRT still has a yellow cast and the 
LCD
> has a
> > > > blue cast. Or maybe it's neutral, but relatively the CRT is
> warmer. A
> > > > lot. Then I thought that maybe the screens frame affects 
visual
> > > > perception. I looked at the screens through a tube to exclude
> > > > environmental effects. The CRT is warmer.
> > > >
> > > > Calibration (both monitors offer RGB adjustments that adjust 
color,
> > > > somehow):
> > > > LCD RGB=43%,43%,50% to produce pure white measured by Spyder.
> > > > CRT RGB=56%,51%,46% measured. But if I change these *after*
> > > > calibration and profiling to 45%,40%,52% then the screens look
> more  
> > > > like.
> > > >
> > > > So... adjusting RGB on these screens makes white purer on both
> > > > devices, but if I want identical colors I need to set similar
> > > > %-values. Oops. Profiling is not supposed to work like this, 
so

> what's
> > > > wrong?
> > > >
> > > > Any ideas would be much appreciated. Thanks.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > ------------------------------------
> > > >
> > > > Yahoo! Groups Links
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> >
>

On Feb 18, 2009, at 6:19 PM, anitaoak2003 wrote:

> I am having a similar problem - the monitor hooked to VGA is very
> yellow, but the DVI monitor looks great. If images are optimized on
> the DVI monitor they print perfectly. The two monitors are same
> company and almost the same model. I wonder if I wouldn't get at
> least 'better' results if I assign the profile for monitor 1 to
> monitor 2.

I don't really have an opinion which incorrect workflows might be less  
objectionable. The base issue is that many cards that offer VGA and  
DVI are not designed to color manage two displays. You might be able  
to switch which one is accurate, but ways to make both more accurate  
at once, short of a fully functional card, are not anything I can make  
suggestions about.

C. David Tobie
Global Product Technology Manager
Digital Imaging & Home Theater
CDTobie@...