Datacolor User to User Support Group.

Hi,  I am printing with a epson r1800, using a dye based bulk ink  
system and hp foto matt paper. I own a Spyder 3 studio profiling  
system. i have had it for some time and am happy with its performance.  
I profile paper using the three page expert patches plus the b&w  
patches. i was very happy with the results greys were neutral and the  
colors were clean. the over all look of the prints was very close to  
what i was seeing on my Spyder profiled 24" I Mac screen. A few days  
ago for no apparent reason images which previously printed well were  
now exhibiting a definite magenta/ yellow overall cast. Thinking that  
it might have to do with a variation in the ink, I re-profiled the  
printer and paper. same results with new profile. I then tried to  
reconfigure the profile to improve printed results.This made a  
difference but still the results are not as neutral and satisfyingly  
clean as before. So what now? Has anyone experienced this problem — if  
so i would appreciate any ideas about were it comes from and how to  
resolve it.

Michael de Courcy
mdec@...
www.michaeldecourcy.com

--- In colorvision_group@yahoogroups.com, Michael de Courcy <mdec@...> wrote:
>.... A few days  
> ago for no apparent reason images which previously printed well were  
> now exhibiting a definite magenta/ yellow overall cast. Thinking that  
> it might have to do with a variation in the ink, I re-profiled the  
> printer and paper. same results with new profile. I then tried to  
> reconfigure the profile to improve printed results.

Have you done a nozzle check to make sure all the inks are firing?

Also what app are you printing with? Photoshop? Have you checked the Color Management 
settings in Photoshop and the Epson print driver?

oh yes, i meant to mention that, i cleaned and did a nozzle check the  
results were positive.

On 17-Feb-09, at 3:29 PM, John Vitollo wrote:

> --- In colorvision_group@yahoogroups.com, Michael de Courcy  
> <mdec@...> wrote:
> >.... A few days
> > ago for no apparent reason images which previously printed well were
> > now exhibiting a definite magenta/ yellow overall cast. Thinking  
> that
> > it might have to do with a variation in the ink, I re-profiled the
> > printer and paper. same results with new profile. I then tried to
> > reconfigure the profile to improve printed results.
>
> Have you done a nozzle check to make sure all the inks are firing?
>
>
>

Reprofiling when your colors go wonky is hiding the source of the  
problem, which is typically in the inks or printheads.

C. D. Tobie
Global Product Technology Mngr.
Digital Imaging & Home Theater
Datacolor.com
CDTobie@...

On Feb 17, 2009, at 6:29 PM, "John Vitollo" <jvlist@...> wrote:

> --- In colorvision_group@yahoogroups.com, Michael de Courcy  
> <mdec@...> wrote:
>> .... A few days
>> ago for no apparent reason images which previously printed well were
>> now exhibiting a definite magenta/ yellow overall cast. Thinking that
>> it might have to do with a variation in the ink, I re-profiled the
>> printer and paper. same results with new profile. I then tried to
>> reconfigure the profile to improve printed results.
>
> Have you done a nozzle check to make sure all the inks are firing?
>
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>

The bulk ink system is the likely culpret, in cases where there is one  
involved.

C. D. Tobie
Global Product Technology Mngr.
Digital Imaging & Home Theater
Datacolor.com
CDTobie@...

On Feb 17, 2009, at 6:36 PM, Michael de Courcy <mdec@...> wrote:

>
> oh yes, i meant to mention that, i cleaned and did a nozzle check  
> the results were positive.
>
> On 17-Feb-09, at 3:29 PM, John Vitollo wrote:
>
>> --- In colorvision_group@yahoogroups.com, Michael de Courcy  
>> <mdec@...> wrote:
>> >.... A few days
>> > ago for no apparent reason i mages which previously printed well  
>> were
>> > now exhibiting a definite magenta/ yellow overall cast. Thinking  
>> that
>> > it might have to do with a variation in the ink, I re-profiled the
>> > printer and paper. same results with new profile. I then tried to
>> > reconfigure the profile to improve printed results.
>>
>> Have you done a nozzle check to make sure all the inks are firing?
>>
>>
>
>
>
>

my nozzle cleaning and printed test left seemed to be excellent  and  
consistent with what i was getting before the shift. my reason for re- 
profiling was that if there had been a shift in the ink colors i could  
readjust with a new profile. wouldn't that make sense ? i was hoping  
that the shift might be the result of some obscure adjustment deep in  
photoshop or the printer driver which i am not aware of.

On 17-Feb-09, at 4:05 PM, Cdtobie wrote:

> Reprofiling when your colors go wonky is hiding the source of the
> problem, which is typically in the inks or printheads.
>
> C. D. Tobie
> Global Product Technology Mngr.
> Digital Imaging & Home Theater
> Datacolor.com
> CDTobie@...
>
> On Feb 17, 2009, at 6:29 PM, "John Vitollo" <jvlist@...>  
> wrote:
>
> > --- In colorvision_group@yahoogroups.com, Michael de Courcy
> > <mdec@...> wrote:
> >> .... A few days
> >> ago for no apparent reason images which previously printed well  
> were
> >> now exhibiting a definite magenta/ yellow overall cast. Thinking  
> that
> >> it might have to do with a variation in the ink, I re-profiled the
> >> printer and paper. same results with new profile. I then tried to
> >> reconfigure the profile to improve printed results.
> >
> > Have you done a nozzle check to make sure all the inks are firing?
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > ------------------------------------
> >
> > Yahoo! Groups Links
> >
> >
> >
>
>

besides the profile patches seemed to print fine. . .

On 17-Feb-09, at 4:05 PM, Cdtobie wrote:

> Reprofiling when your colors go wonky is hiding the source of the
> problem, which is typically in the inks or printheads.
>
> C. D. Tobie
> Global Product Technology Mngr.
> Digital Imaging & Home Theater
> Datacolor.com
> CDTobie@...
>
> On Feb 17, 2009, at 6:29 PM, "John Vitollo" <jvlist@...>  
> wrote:
>
> > --- In colorvision_group@yahoogroups.com, Michael de Courcy
> > <mdec@...> wrote:
> >> .... A few days
> >> ago for no apparent reason images which previously printed well  
> were
> >> now exhibiting a definite magenta/ yellow overall cast. Thinking  
> that
> >> it might have to do with a variation in the ink, I re-profiled the
> >> printer and paper. same results with new profile. I then tried to
> >> reconfigure the profile to improve printed results.
> >
> > Have you done a nozzle check to make sure all the inks are firing?
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > ------------------------------------
> >
> > Yahoo! Groups Links
> >
> >
> >
>
>

How can your target prints not be magenta, if your image prints are  
magenta? If that's truly the case, then the problem would seem to be  
in your color settings. What changed? New driver, new OS, something?

C. D. Tobie
Global Product Technology Mngr.
Digital Imaging & Home Theater
Datacolor.com
CDTobie@...

On Feb 17, 2009, at 7:25 PM, Michael de Courcy <mdec@...> wrote:

> besides the profile patches seemed to print fine. . .
>
> On 17-Feb-09, at 4:05 PM, Cdtobie wrote:
>
>> Reprofiling when your colors go wonky is hiding the source of the
>> problem, which is typically in the inks or printheads.
>>
>> C. D. Tobie
>> Global Product Technology Mngr.
>> Digital Imaging & Home Theater
>> Datacolor.com
>> CDTobie@...
>>
>> On Feb 17, 2009, at 6:29 PM, "John Vitollo" <jvlist@...>  
>> wrote:
>>
>> > --- In colorvision_group@yahoogroups.com, Michael de Courcy
>> > <mdec@...> wrote:
>> >> .... A few days
>> >> ago for no apparent reason images which previously printed well  
>> were
>> >> now exhibiting a definite magenta/ yellow overall cast. Thinking  
>> that
>> >> it might have to do with a variation in the ink, I re-profiled the
>> >> printer and paper. same results with new profile. I then tried to
>> >> reconfigure the profile to improve printed results.
>> >
>> > Have you done a nozzle check to make sure all the inks are firing?
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > ------------------------------------
>> >
>> > Yahoo! Groups Links
>> >
>> >
>> >
>>
>
>
>
>

i know thats what i don't get. when i compare the original test  
patches with the new post change ones they are virtually identical.  
same driver, same os

On 17-Feb-09, at 4:46 PM, Cdtobie wrote:

>
> How can your target prints not be magenta, if your image prints are  
> magenta? If that's truly the case, then the problem would seem to be  
> in your color settings. What changed? New driver, new OS, something?
>
> C. D. Tobie
> Global Product Technology Mngr.
> Digital Imaging & Home Theater
> Datacolor.com
> CDTobie@...
>
> On Feb 17, 2009, at 7:25 PM, Michael de Courcy <mdec@...>  
> wrote:
>
>> besides the profile patches seemed to print fine. . ..
>>
>> On 17-Feb-09, at 4:05 PM, Cdtobie wrote:
>>
>>> Reprofiling when your colors go wonky is hiding the source of the
>>> problem, which is typically in the inks or printheads.
>>>
>>> C. D. Tobie
>>> Global Product Technology Mngr.
>>> Digital Imaging & Home Theater
>>> Datacolor.com
>>> CDTobie@...
>>>
>>> On Feb 17, 2009, at 6:29 PM, "John Vitollo" <jvlist@...>  
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>> > --- In colorvision_group@yahoogroups.com, Michael de Courcy
>>> > <mdec@...> wrote:
>>> >> ..... A few days
>>> >> ago for no apparent reason images which previously printed well  
>>> were
>>> >> now exhibiting a definite magenta/ yellow overall cast.  
>>> Thinking that
>>> >> it might have to do with a variation in the ink, I re-profiled  
>>> the
>>> >> printer and paper. same results with new profile. I then tried to
>>> >> reconfigure the profile to improve printed results.
>>> >
>>> > Have you done a nozzle check to make sure all the inks are firing?
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > ------------------------------------
>>> >
>>> > Yahoo! Groups Links
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>>
>>
> =
>
>

how do you see the bulk system compromising print quality especially  
if it nozzle check looks good all colors appear to be clean resolution  
remains very fine. no banding at all in photo rpm.

On 17-Feb-09, at 4:08 PM, Cdtobie wrote:

>
> The bulk ink system is the likely culpret, in cases where there is  
> one involved.
>
> C. D. Tobie
> Global Product Technology Mngr.
> Digital Imaging & Home Theater
> Datacolor.com
> CDTobie@...
>
> On Feb 17, 2009, at 6:36 PM, Michael de Courcy <mdec@...>  
> wrote:
>
>>
>> oh yes, i meant to mention that, i cleaned and did a nozzle check  
>> the results were positive.
>>
>> On 17-Feb-09, at 3:29 PM, John Vitollo wrote:
>>
>>> --- In colorvision_group@yahoogroups.com, Michael de Courcy  
>>> <mdec@...> wrote:
>>> >.... A few days
>>> > ago for no apparent reason i mages which previously printed well  
>>> were
>>> > now exhibiting a definite magenta/ yellow overall cast. Thinking  
>>> that
>>> > it might have to do with a variation in the ink, I re-profiled the
>>> > printer and paper. same results with new profile. I then tried to
>>> > reconfigure the profile to improve printed results.
>>>
>>> Have you done a nozzle check to make sure all the inks are firing?
>>>
>>>
>>
> =
>
>

On Feb 17, 2009, at 7:23 PM, Michael de Courcy wrote:

> my nozzle cleaning and printed test left seemed to be excellent  and  
> consistent with what i was getting before the shift. my reason for  
> re-profiling was that if there had been a shift in the ink colors i  
> could readjust with a new profile. wouldn't that make sense ? i was  
> hoping that the shift might be the result of some obscure adjustment  
> deep in photoshop or the printer driver which i am not aware of.

When your colors shift significantly, in a short amount of time,  
reprofiling may or may not offer the fix you need, but even if it  
does, it is likely to be a bandaid solution for a different underlying  
issue. That issue is typically inks or heads, but once I saw that you  
are using a CIS, the likely blame moved to there. My experience is  
that most such shifts, if they don't show in a jet test, have to do  
with the CIS delivery system and the ink it delivers. If reprofiling  
solves your problem, and leaves you with acceptable results and a  
reasonable color gamut, thats wonderful. If it does not, or if further  
shifts continue to occur, please keep in mind where the source of the  
issue is likely to lie. And don't make the mistake of blaming your  
profile for issues that are caused by your printer, media, inks, or  
CIS; as is often done, since the results are 'bad color'...

C. David Tobie
Global Product Technology Manager
Digital Imaging & Home Theater
CDTobie@...

On Feb 17, 2009, at 7:58 PM, Michael de Courcy wrote:

> i know thats what i don't get. when i compare the original test  
> patches with the new post change ones they are virtually identical.  
> same driver, same os

Then you have a true mystery on your hands... consistent printing when  
a profile is not invoked, and inconsistent printing when one is; and  
(according to you) no changes in applications, OS, or driver to  
explain it. Profiles are consistant, so thats unlikely to be this  
factor. If settings have not been changed, we are pretty much out of  
variables...

C. David Tobie
Global Product Technology Manager
Digital Imaging & Home Theater
CDTobie@...

On Feb 17, 2009, at 7:58 PM, Michael de Courcy wrote:

> how do you see the bulk system compromising print quality especially  
> if it nozzle check looks good all colors appear to be clean  
> resolution remains very fine. no banding at all in photo rpm.

Ink systems have all sorts of compexities. To list a few: ink  
settling, fungus growth, vacuum issues, levelness issues, hose and  
connector issues, evaporation... you are on your own (or at the mercy  
of CIS experts on this or other lists) for details, I must admit I  
stopped using CIS systems myself years ago.

C. David Tobie
Global Product Technology Manager
Digital Imaging & Home Theater
CDTobie@...

thank you toby for your keen analysis of my color shift problems.  
after running out of ideas. i decided to check the portion of the  
remaining in the bottle after i had topped up the bulk reservoir. i  
checked the red and magenta first. they were identical color red even  
though the manufacturers label indicated them to be red and magenta.  
so mystery solved i was running prints with a very red diluted magenta  
ink. again i do appreciate your helpful persistence in responding even  
though it was evident from the beginning that this problem wasn't a  
datacolour product issue. . . .    michael

On 18-Feb-09, at 6:24 AM, C D Tobie wrote:

>
> On Feb 17, 2009, at 7:58 PM, Michael de Courcy wrote:
>
> > how do you see the bulk system compromising print quality especially
> > if it nozzle check looks good all colors appear to be clean
> > resolution remains very fine. no banding at all in photo rpm.
>
> Ink systems have all sorts of compexities. To list a few: ink
> settling, fungus growth, vacuum issues, levelness issues, hose and
> connector issues, evaporation... you are on your own (or at the mercy
> of CIS experts on this or other lists) for details, I must admit I
> stopped using CIS systems myself years ago.
>
> C. David Tobie
> Global Product Technology Manager
> Digital Imaging & Home Theater
> CDTobie@...
>
>
> <image003.gif>
>
>
> Datacolor
> www.datacolor.com/Spyder3
>
>

On Feb 18, 2009, at 1:26 PM, Michael de Courcy wrote:

> thank you toby for your keen analysis of my color shift problems.  
> after running out of ideas. i decided to check the portion of the  
> remaining in the bottle after i had topped up the bulk reservoir. i  
> checked the red and magenta first. they were identical color red  
> even though the manufacturers label indicated them to be red and  
> magenta. so mystery solved i was running prints with a very red  
> diluted magenta ink. again i do appreciate your helpful persistence  
> in responding even though it was evident from the beginning that  
> this problem wasn't a datacolour product issue. . . .    michael

Glad you found your culprit. I should have included mislabeled or  
misplaced ink colors in my list of potential CIS problems, since it  
has been an issue repeatedly, but it didn't come to mind as I was  
thinking up that list.

C. David Tobie
Global Product Technology Manager
Digital Imaging & Home Theater
CDTobie@...

i do agree with you there, as an artist i could never afford to muck  
around proofing images like i do in the studio if i was burning  
through expensive paper and ink. . .

On 18-Feb-09, at 10:41 AM, Doug Lenos wrote:

>
> I would guess inserting the wrong OEM color cart in the printer  
> occurs much more than mislabeled CIS ink bottles. I have saved  
> thousands on CIS's in the last several years, they are not without  
> their aggravation but you can think them for at least 3 datacolor  
> sells over that time period... <Emoticon3.gif>
>
> From: C D Tobie
> Sent: Wednesday, February 18, 2009 1:36 PM
> To: colorvision_group@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: Re: [colorvision_group] Re: R1800 unexplained shift from  
> neutral to magenta
>
>
> On Feb 18, 2009, at 1:26 PM, Michael de Courcy wrote:
>
> > thank you toby for your keen analysis of my color shift problems.
> > after running out of ideas. i decided to check the portion of the
> > remaining in the bottle after i had topped up the bulk reservoir. i
> > checked the red and magenta first. they were identical color red
> > even though the manufacturers label indicated them to be red and
> > magenta. so mystery solved i was running prints with a very red
> > diluted magenta ink. again i do appreciate your helpful persistence
> > in responding even though it was evident from the beginning that
> > this problem wasn't a datacolour product issue. . . . michael
>
> Glad you found your culprit. I should have included mislabeled or
> misplaced ink colors in my list of potential CIS problems, since it
> has been an issue repeatedly, but it didn't come to mind as I was
> thinking up that list.
>
> C. David Tobie
> Global Product Technology Manager
> Digital Imaging & Home Theater
> CDTobie@...
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Datacolor
> www.datacolor.com/Spyder3
>
>
>
>

On Feb 18, 2009, at 1:41 PM, Doug Lenos wrote:

> I would guess inserting the wrong OEM color cart in the printer  
> occurs much more than mislabeled CIS ink bottles

In printer models that have no mechanical or electronic protection  
against cartridge misplacement, yes.

C. David Tobie
Global Product Technology Manager
Digital Imaging & Home Theater
CDTobie@...



Datacolor
www.datacolor.com/Spyder3

It's physically impossible to make this mistake with R1800 OEM carts
as they have little plastic nubs on the front that are cartridge
specific.  I have to shave these off to use a refilled glop cartridge
in PK, for example.  Same problem using R2400 PK and Y in a R1800.

Roger



colorvision_group@yahoogroups.com, "Doug Lenos" <doug@...> wrote:
>
> I would guess inserting the wrong OEM color cart in the printer
occurs much more than mislabeled CIS ink bottles. I have saved
thousands on CIS's in the last several years, they are not without
their aggravation but you can think them for at least 3 datacolor
sells over that time period... 
> 
> 
> From: C D Tobie 
> Sent: Wednesday, February 18, 2009 1:36 PM
> To: colorvision_group@yahoogroups.com 
> Subject: Re: [colorvision_group] Re: R1800 unexplained shift from
neutral to magenta
> 
> 
> 
> On Feb 18, 2009, at 1:26 PM, Michael de Courcy wrote:
> 
> > thank you toby for your keen analysis of my color shift problems. 
> > after running out of ideas. i decided to check the portion of the 
> > remaining in the bottle after i had topped up the bulk reservoir. i 
> > checked the red and magenta first. they were identical color red 
> > even though the manufacturers label indicated them to be red and 
> > magenta. so mystery solved i was running prints with a very red 
> > diluted magenta ink. again i do appreciate your helpful persistence 
> > in responding even though it was evident from the beginning that 
> > this problem wasn't a datacolour product issue. . . . michael
> 
> Glad you found your culprit. I should have included mislabeled or 
> misplaced ink colors in my list of potential CIS problems, since it 
> has been an issue repeatedly, but it didn't come to mind as I was 
> thinking up that list.
> 
> C. David Tobie
> Global Product Technology Manager
> Digital Imaging & Home Theater
> CDTobie@...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>
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> 
> 
> 
> 
> Datacolor
> www.datacolor.com/Spyder3
>