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Tip for a newbie (prints darker)

Tip for a newbie (prints darker)

2009-02-09 by Giorgio

Hi,
I'm pretty new to C.M.  and I'm trying to be confident with  Spyder 3 
and its profiles.....
 
My setup: Monitor Eizo S1931 (I'm not a professional, therefore I assume 
this is  quite a good monitor for a lover) duly calibrated with EyeOne,
printer Epson 1400 and, of course, Printfix pro spectro with 
Spyder3print sw vers. 3.5b9; profiles comes from 225 patches target.
Photoshop CS4settings:  let's Cs4 manages colours, (printer profile made 
by Spyderprint) saturation intent, no BCP.
Printer drivers selected: paper type Epson Glossy plus (same as printer 
profiling, of course), no ICM, high speed unchecked, print borderless.
Spectro was duly calibrated on the white tile before the process. I have 
calibrate the device then measured the white tile from the Tools >
Measure menu item: the white tile is L* 90,48 and a* -1,00 b* -1,23.

The print: no colour cast, good colours, saturation ok,everything is 
good but...... there is less brightness if I compare it with the image I 
see at the monitor (also considering the different type of light).
Also if I softproof  the image (again: printer profile, no bpc, 
saturation intent) I see that the image fall down in brightness....
Better prints I see if I check BPC: more brightness (therefore better 
prints, but BPC should be left UNchecked, isn't it?) but again a little 
far from what I expect.

Why? what happens and where I'm wrong?

Tks
Giorgio from Italy

- apologizing for his english:-) -

Re: [colorvision_group] Tip for a newbie (prints darker)

2009-02-10 by Cdtobie

Several comments that may be of assistance:

Your white tile reading is good. (Tuo l'inglese e molto bene, anchi)  
Your printer profiling process also looks right.

If you are seeing brighter images on screen than in print, you  
probably need to set a lower display luminance when calibrating your  
monitor. Not my job to tell you how to do that; since you are using  
the competition's product... ; )

Softproofing for most gloss media will drop the image brightness on  
screen, since the media is not very white. To adjust the brightness of  
gloss whites, increase the L* value in the Ref White control.  
Similarly, to darken blacks on matte media, lower the L* value in Ref  
Black.

If you like the effect of BPC, feel free to use it. However, it can't  
make your blacks any darker, and on those occasions where it makes  
blacks lighter, people tend to get upset.

You may be "going wrong" from some of the above,  or other settings  
which can require "dialing in"; or it could be your expectations of  
exact and automatic matching.

Ciao,
C. D. Tobie
Global Product Technology Mngr.
Digital Imaging & Home Theater
Datacolor.com
CDTobie@...
Show quoted textHide quoted text
On Feb 9, 2009, at 1:47 PM, Giorgio <gior.cap@...> wrote:

>
> Hi,
> I'm pretty new to C.M.  and I'm trying to be confident with  Spyder 3
> and its profiles.....
>
> My setup: Monitor Eizo S1931 (I'm not a professional, therefore I  
> assume
> this is  quite a good monitor for a lover) duly calibrated with  
> EyeOne,
> printer Epson 1400 and, of course, Printfix pro spectro with
> Spyder3print sw vers. 3.5b9; profiles comes from 225 patches target.
> Photoshop CS4settings:  let's Cs4 manages colours, (printer profile  
> made
> by Spyderprint) saturation intent, no BCP.
> Printer drivers selected: paper type Epson Glossy plus (same as  
> printer
> profiling, of course), no ICM, high speed unchecked, print borderless.
> Spectro was duly calibrated on the white tile before the process. I  
> have
> calibrate the device then measured the white tile from the Tools >
> Measure menu item: the white tile is L* 90,48 and a* -1,00 b* -1,23.
>
> The print: no colour cast, good colours, saturation ok,everything is
> good but...... there is less brightness if I compare it with the  
> image I
> see at the monitor (also considering the different type of light).
> Also if I softproof  the image (again: printer profile, no bpc,
> saturation intent) I see that the image fall down in brightness....
> Better prints I see if I check BPC: more brightness (therefore better
> prints, but BPC should be left UNchecked, isn't it?) but again a  
> little
> far from what I expect.
>
> Why? what happens and where I'm wrong?
>
> Tks
> Giorgio from Italy
>
> - apologizing for his english:-) -
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>

Re: [colorvision_group] Tip for a newbie (prints darker)

2009-02-10 by Giorgio

My dear,
you say that white tile and printing process are good and this is .... good :-)
The luminance of the (LCD) monitor is setted to 100 cd/sqm (squares meters): do you think that a lower level should be better? I.e. 80?
The point is that what I see (on the screen) is just the brightness level I shooted : recalibrating my monitor, using the competition's product :-), with a lower level of luminance I certainly will match print with screen but this one should not reflect the scene I shooted, don't you agree? Or am I wrong?

About the refWhite control, do you mean that I redo profile process then, before generating it, I should set L* value to an higher level? Could you tell me your opinion on the working range of this adjust? i.e. starting from 3 figures? or more?

Again, you say that BPC unchecked doesnt' make darker blacks: yes this is true (obviously!), I achieve a little more brightness... but the blacks are better with BPC unchecked!

I'm very happy with this spectro, I only need to work out that little big trouble :-)

tks,
Giorgio





Cdtobie ha scritto:
Show quoted textHide quoted text

Several comments that may be of assistance:

Your white tile reading is good. (Tuo l'inglese e molto bene, anchi)
Your printer profiling process also looks right.

If you are seeing brighter images on screen than in print, you
probably need to set a lower display luminance when calibrating your
monitor. Not my job to tell you how to do that; since you are using
the competition's product... ; )

Softproofing for most gloss media will drop the image brightness on
screen, since the media is not very white. To adjust the brightness of
gloss whites, increase the L* value in the Ref White control.
Similarly, to darken blacks on matte media, lower the L* value in Ref
Black.

If you like the effect of BPC, feel free to use it. However, it can't
make your blacks any darker, and on those occasions where it makes
blacks lighter, people tend to get upset.

You may be "going wrong" from some of the above, or other settings
which can require "dialing in"; or it could be your expectations of
exact and automatic matching.

Ciao,
C. D. Tobie
Global Product Technology Mngr.
Digital Imaging & Home Theater
Datacolor.com
CDTobie@Datacolor.com

O

.


Re: [colorvision_group] Tip for a newbie (prints darker)

2009-02-10 by Cdtobie

No, 100cd/m2 should be fine, no need to lower it further. But whether  
it matches what you shot will depend on ambient lighting; in a darker  
room it would match at a lower luminance. Similarly, a brighter  
proofing light may make it match at 100; these things are relative.

Also, I would agree that the blacks are better with BPC unchecked,  
which is why we recommend it. If you have all your variables (ambient  
light, proofing light, monitor luminance) at optimally matched  
settings, and you still find your prints to be darker than you would  
like them, you may need to make a slider adjustment to your printer  
profile to tune this. I would start by opening shadow detail about +5,  
and adding +5 to the brightness as well.

Buona notte,
C. D. Tobie
Global Product Technology Mngr.
Digital Imaging & Home Theater
Datacolor.com
CDTobie@...
Show quoted textHide quoted text
On Feb 9, 2009, at 10:27 PM, Giorgio <gior.cap@...> wrote:

> My dear,
> you say that white tile and  printing process are good and this  
> is .... good  :-)
> The luminance of the (LCD) monitor is setted to 100 cd/sqm (squares  
> meters):  do you think that a lower level should be better? I.e. 80?
> The point is that what I see (on the screen) is just the brightness  
> level  I shooted : recalibrating my monitor, using the competition's  
> product :-),  with a lower level of luminance I certainly will match  
> print with screen but this one should not reflect the scene I  
> shooted, don't you agree? Or am I wrong?
>
> About the refWhite control, do you mean that I redo profile process  
> then, before generating it, I  should set L* value to an higher  
> level?  Could you tell me your opinion on the working range of this  
> adjust? i.e. starting from 3 figures? or more?
>
> Again, you say that BPC unchecked doesnt' make darker blacks: yes  
> this is true (obviously!), I achieve a little  more  brightness...  
> but the blacks are better with BPC unchecked!
>
> I'm very happy with this spectro, I only need to work out that  
> little big trouble :-)
>
> tks,
> Giorgio
>
>
>
>
>
> Cdtobie ha scritto:
>>
>> Several comments that may be of assistance:
>>
>> Your white tile reading is good. (Tuo l'inglese e molto bene, anchi)
>> Your printer profiling process also looks right.
>>
>> If you are seeing brighter images on screen than in print, you
>> probably need to set a lower display luminance when calibrating your
>> monitor. Not my job to tell you how to do that; since you are using
>> the competition's product... ; )
>>
>> Softproofing for most gloss media will drop the image brightness on
>> screen, since the media is not very white. To adjust the brightness  
>> of
>> gloss whites, increase the L* value in the Ref White control.
>> Similarly, to darken blacks on matte media, lower the L* value in Ref
>> Black.
>>
>> If you like the effect of BPC, feel free to use it. However, it can't
>> make your blacks any darker, and on those occasions where it makes
>> blacks lighter, people tend to get upset.
>>
>> You may be "going wrong" from some of the above, or other settings
>> which can require "dialing in"; or it could be your expectations of
>> exact and automatic matching.
>>
>> Ciao,
>> C. D. Tobie
>> Global Product Technology Mngr.
>> Digital Imaging & Home Theater
>> Datacolor.com
>> CDTobie@...
>>
>> O
>>
>> .
>>
>
>
>
>

Re: [colorvision_group] Tip for a newbie (prints darker)

2009-02-10 by Nathan Gutman

Where and how does one set the 100 cd/m2?
What does BPC stand for?
Thanks,
Nathan

Cdtobie wrote:
Show quoted textHide quoted text
No, 100cd/m2 should be fine, no need to lower it further. But whether it matches what you shot will depend on ambient lighting; in a darker room it would match at a lower luminance. Similarly, a brighter proofing light may make it match at 100; these things are relative.�

Also, I would agree that the blacks are better with BPC unchecked, which is why we recommend it. If you have all your variables (ambient light, proofing light, monitor luminance) at optimally matched settings, and you still find your prints to be darker than you would like them, you may need to make a slider adjustment to your printer profile to tune this. I would start by opening shadow detail about +5, and adding +5 to the brightness as well.�

Buona notte,
C. D. Tobie
Global Product Technology Mngr.
Digital Imaging & Home Theater
Datacolor.com

On Feb 9, 2009, at 10:27 PM, Giorgio <gior.cap@tin.it> wrote:

My dear,
you say that white tile and� printing process are good and this is ..... good� :-)
The luminance of the (LCD) monitor is setted to 100 cd/sqm (squares meters):� do you think that a lower level should be better? I.e. 80?
The point is that what I see (on the screen) is just the brightness level� I shooted : recalibrating my monitor, using the competition's product :-),� with a lower level of luminance I certainly will match print with screen but this one should not reflect the scene I shooted, don't you agree? Or am I wrong?

About the refWhite control, do you mean that I redo profile process then, before generating it, I� should set L* value to an higher level?� Could you tell me your opinion on the working range of this adjust? i.e. starting from 3 figures? or more?

Again, you say that BPC unchecked doesnt' make darker blacks: yes this is true (obviously!), I achieve a little� more� brightness... but the blacks are better with BPC unchecked!

I'm very happy with this spectro, I only need to work out that little big trouble :-)

tks,
Giorgio

�



Cdtobie ha scritto:

Several comments that may be of assistance:

Your white tile reading is good. (Tuo l'inglese e molto bene, anchi)
Your printer profiling process also looks right.

If you are seeing brighter images on screen than in print, you
probably need to set a lower display luminance when calibrating your
monitor. Not my job to tell you how to do that; since you are using
the competition's product... ; )

Softproofing for most gloss media will drop the image brightness on
screen, since the media is not very white. To adjust the brightness of
gloss whites, increase the L* value in the Ref White control.
Similarly, to darken blacks on matte media, lower the L* value in Ref
Black.

If you like the effect of BPC, feel free to use it. However, it can't
make your blacks any darker, and on those occasions where it makes
blacks lighter, people tend to get upset.

You may be "going wrong" from some of the above, or other settings
which can require "dialing in"; or it could be your expectations of
exact and automatic matching.

Ciao,
C. D. Tobie
Global Product Technology Mngr.
Digital Imaging & Home Theater
Datacolor.com
CDTobie@Datacolor.com

O

.


= 

-- 
Nathan Gutman

Re: [colorvision_group] Tip for a newbie (prints darker)

2009-02-10 by C D Tobie

On Feb 10, 2009, at 9:36 AM, Nathan Gutman wrote:

> Where and how does one set the 100 cd/m2?

It would be defined under measured luminance, in the white luminance  
blank.  Spyder3Elite offers this. Spyder3Pro does not (but you can  
lower your display's luminance before starting your calibration if you  
use Pro).
>
> What does BPC stand for?

Black Point Compensation. Its an automated adjustments of blacks when  
converting from one space to another for printing, invented by Adobe.  
Its not typically available from non-Adobe applications, and profiles  
need to be built differently for it, so if profiles are built for BPC,  
they tend to clog up in the shadows if used from non-Adobe  
applications. (If you don't believe this: build a profile for a matte  
art paper with the ColorMunki, and print through any intent except  
Perceptual, and watch your shadows clog!) We build our profiles for  
using without BPC, so that they can be used from any application. This  
is only problematic for Lightroom, where Adobe cleverly included BPC,  
without any option for turning it off! I am hoping that by the time  
they get the other features of Lightroom improved enough so that it  
can be considered a serious printing application, they will have  
added  a choice of all the rendering intents, and an option for  
turning BPC off as well...

C. David Tobie
Global Product Technology Manager
Digital Imaging & Home Theater
CDTobie@...

Re: [colorvision_group] Tip for a newbie (prints darker)

2009-02-12 by Giorgio

Tobie,
I'm a little bit confused.....
Pls read your previous messages here under.
Once you say "increase shadow details  and brightness", then  "increase 
L*value".
I'm reprofiling Epson Premium glossy paper (prints were darker, do you 
remember?) which of two?
Sorry.... :-(

tks
Giorgio

Cdtobie wrote::
Show quoted textHide quoted text
>
> Also, I would agree that the blacks are better with BPC unchecked, 
> which is why we recommend it. If you have all your variables (ambient 
> light, proofing light, monitor luminance) at optimally matched 
> settings, and you still find your prints to be darker than you would 
> like them, you may need to make a slider adjustment to your printer 
> profile to tune this. I would start by opening shadow detail about +5, 
> and adding +5 to the brightness as well. 
>
> Buona notte,
> C. D. Tobie
> Global Product Technology Mngr.
> Digital Imaging & Home Theater
> Datacolor.com
> CDTobie@Data color.com <mailto:CDTobie@...>
>
> On Feb 9, 2009, at 10:27 PM, Giorgio <gior.cap@... 
> <mailto:gior.cap@...>> wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>> Cdtobie ha scritto:
>>>
>>> Softproofing for most gloss media will drop the image brightness on
>>> screen, since the media is not very white. To adjust the brightness of
>>> gloss whites, increase the L* value in the Ref White control.
>>> Similarly, to darken blacks on matte media, lower the L* value in Ref
>>> Black.
>>>
>>>
>>> .
>>>
>>
> =
> .
>
>

Re: [colorvision_group] Tip for a newbie (prints darker)

2009-02-12 by Cdtobie

Adjust the softproof by tweaking ref white and ref black L* values (if  
you like your print, but not your softproof). Adjust print density by  
adjusting shadow detail and brightness settings if your prints are too  
dark.

C. D. Tobie
Global Product Technology Mngr.
Digital Imaging & Home Theater
Datacolor.com
CDTobie@...
Show quoted textHide quoted text
On Feb 11, 2009, at 7:40 PM, Giorgio <gior.cap@...> wrote:

> Tobie,
> I'm a little bit confused.....
> Pls read your previous messages here under.
> Once you say "increase shadow details  and brightness", then   
> "increase L*value".
> I'm reprofiling Epson Premium glossy paper (prints were darker, do  
> you remember?) which of two?
> Sorry.... :-(
>
> tks
> Giorgio
>
> Cdtobie wrote::
>>
>>
>> Also, I would agree that the blacks are better with BPC unchecked,  
>> which is why we recommend it. If you have all your variables  
>> (ambient light, proofing light, monitor luminance) at optimally  
>> matched settings, and you still find your prints to be darker than  
>> you would like them, you may need to make a slider adjustment to  
>> your printer profile to tune this. I would start by opening shadow  
>> detail about +5, and adding +5 to the brightness as well.
>>
>> Buona notte,
>> C. D. Tobie
>> Global Product Technology Mngr.
>> Digital Imaging & Home Theater
>> Datacolor.com
>> CDTobie@Data color.com
>>
>> On Feb 9, 2009, at 10:27 PM, Giorgio <gior.cap@...> wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Cdtobie ha scritto:
>>>>
>>>> Softproofing for most gloss media will drop the image brightness on
>>>> screen, since the media is not very white. To adjust the  
>>>> brightness of
>>>> gloss whites, increase the L* value in the Ref White control.
>>>> Similarly, to darken blacks on matte media, lower the L* value in  
>>>> Ref
>>>> Black.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> .
>>>>
>>>
>> =
>
>
>
>

Re: [colorvision_group] Tip for a newbie (prints darker)

2009-02-12 by Giorgio

ok, understood.
But now I go to bed, its late here.....:-)
Ciao
GIorgio

Cdtobie ha scritto:
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> Adjust the softproof by tweaking ref white and ref black L* values (if 
> you like your print, but not your softproof). Adjust print density by 
> adjusting shadow detail and brightness settings if your prints are too 
> dark.   
>
> C. D. Tobie
> Global Product Technology Mngr.
> Digital Imaging & Home Theater
> Datacolor.com
> CDTobie@... <mailto:CDTobie@...>
>
> On Feb 11, 2009, at 7:40 PM, Giorgio <gior.cap@... 
> <mailto:gior.cap@...>> wrote:
>
>> Tobie,
>> I'm a little bit confused.....
>> Pls read your previous messages here under.
>> Once you say "increase shadow details  and brightness", then  
>> "increase L*value".
>> I'm reprofiling Epson Premium glossy paper (prints were darker, do 
>> you remember?) which of two?
>> Sorry.... :-(
>>
>> tks
>> Giorgio
>>
>> Cdtobie wrote::
>>>
>>> Also, I would agree that the blacks are better with BPC unchecked, 
>>> which is why we recommend it. If you have all your variables 
>>> (ambient light, proofing light, monitor luminance) at optimally 
>>> matched settings, and you still find your prints to be darker than 
>>> you would like them, you may need to make a slider adjustment to 
>>> your printer profile to tune this. I would start by opening shadow 
>>> detail about +5, and adding +5 to the brightness as well. 
>>>
>>> Buona notte,
>>> C. D. Tobie
>>> Global Product Technology Mngr.
>>> Digital Imaging & Home Theater
>>> Datacolor.com
>>> CDTobie@Data color.com <mailto:CDTobie@...>
>>>
>>> On Feb 9, 2009, at 10:27 PM, Giorgio <gior.cap@... 
>>> <mailto:gior.cap@...>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Cdtobie ha scritto:
>>>>>
>>>>> Softproofing for most gloss media will drop the image brightness on
>>>>> screen, since the media is not very white. To adjust the 
>>>>> brightness of
>>>>> gloss whites, increase the L* value in the Ref White control.
>>>>> Similarly, to darken blacks on matte media, lower the L* value in Ref
>>>>> Black.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> .
>>>>>
>>>>
>>> =
>>
>

Re: [colorvision_group] Tip for a newbie (prints darker)

2009-02-12 by Giorgio

FOUND IT!!
Increased shadows detail +2 and brightness + 2  Now prints looks like shot.
But I have a little magenta cast:  where may I investigate?

tks
Giorgio


Cdtobie ha scritto:
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> Adjust the softproof by tweaking ref white and ref black L* values (if 
> you like your print, but not your softproof). Adjust print density by 
> adjusting shadow detail and brightness settings if your prints are too 
> dark.   
>
>
>

Re: [colorvision_group] Tip for a newbie (prints darker)

2009-02-12 by C D Tobie

On Feb 12, 2009, at 1:19 PM, Giorgio wrote:

> Increased shadows detail +2 and brightness + 2  Now prints looks  
> like shot.
> But I have a little magenta cast:  where may I investigate?


You could start by trying the neutralminus preset, then adding your  
shadow and brightness adjustments, and saving as a new preset with a  
different name, once you have it just the way you want it.

C. David Tobie
Global Product Technology Manager
Digital Imaging & Home Theater
CDTobie@...

Re: [colorvision_group] Tip for a newbie (prints darker)

2009-02-12 by Giorgio

David,
ok, I know where it is. But I'm going to leave tomorrow, I will be on holiday in Sudan (dive cruise) .
I'll go back at home next 23rd and I let you know ASAP.

Meanwhile, tks
Giorgio

C.David Tobie ha scritto:
Show quoted textHide quoted text


On Feb 12, 2009, at 1:19 PM, Giorgio wrote:

> Increased shadows detail +2 and brightness + 2 Now prints looks
> like shot.
> But I have a little magenta cast: where may I investigate?

You could start by trying the neutralminus preset, then adding your
shadow and brightness adjustments, and saving as a new preset with a
different name, once you have it just the way you want it.

C. David Tobie
Global Product Technology Manager
Digital Imaging & Home Theater
CDTobie@datacolor.com





Datacolor
www.datacolor.com/Spyder3



Re: [colorvision_group] Tip for a newbie (prints darker)

2009-02-13 by Cdtobie

That's funny, I usually take my vacations in Italy... : )

C. D. Tobie
Global Product Technology Mngr.
Digital Imaging & Home Theater
Datacolor.com
CDTobie@...
Show quoted textHide quoted text
On Feb 12, 2009, at 6:48 PM, Giorgio <gior.cap@...> wrote:

> David,
> ok, I know where it is. But I'm going to leave tomorrow, I will be  
> on holiday in Sudan (dive cruise) .
> I'll go back at home next 23rd and I let you know ASAP.
>
> Meanwhile, tks
> Giorgio
>
> C.David Tobie ha scritto:
>>
>>
>> On Feb 12, 2009, at 1:19 PM, Giorgio wrote:
>>
>> > Increased shadows detail +2 and brightness + 2 Now prints looks
>> > like shot.
>> > But I have a little magenta cast: where may I investigate?
>>
>> You could start by trying the neutralminus preset, then adding your
>> shadow and brightness adjustments, and saving as a new preset with a
>> different name, once you have it just the way you want it.
>>
>> C. David Tobie
>> Global Product Technology Manager
>> Digital Imaging & Home Theater
>> CDTobie@...
>>
>>
>>
>> <mime-attachment.gif>
>>
>>
>> Datacolor
>> www.datacolor.com/Spyder3
>>
>>
>

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