Datacolor User to User Support Group.

Hi, 

Wonder if someone can help. I have raised a support ticket too...

I am going through the process of using my Spyder3 Print to build an ICC profile from scratch for Hahnemuhle Photo Rag 188g. I want to make sure I get this profile as accurate as I possibly can so need to get every step right along the way...

Ok, so first stop I run the Media Setting Check before I print the target for this paper. Now the manufacturer (Hahnemuhle) recommend using a setting of Velvet Fine Art on the Epson 3800 printer. So I tried this and printed the test image on Hahnemuhle paper and saw that some of the colour blocks are 'overlapping' each other ever so slightly. In addition there is a little of what I believe is called 'mottling' on certain mid-tone patches in certain areas... Anyway, so I thought I would try to run the same print using an media type of Ultrasmooth. On this setting it seems I don't get the 'overlapping' problem and the mottling is much less. But on this setting the shadow details in the deep blacks is not quite as good as the Velvet Fine Art print... hmmm... So as a final step I tried to reduce the ink limit in the printing preferences by -10%. This reduced the mottling again but now I found that some of the highlight areas in the 'faces' part of the test image are starting to lose some detail/tone...

So I'm a bit stuck right here... The Datacolour help files provide some examples of problems you might expect when running the media check test but they don't really seem to provide any solutions for these?

Any help would be great,

Rgds
Rick

Hi, 

Wonder if someone can help. I have raised a support ticket too...

I am going through the process of using my Spyder3 Print to build an ICC profile from scratch for Hahnemuhle Photo Rag 188g. I want to make sure I get this profile as accurate as I possibly can so need to get every step right along the way...

Ok, so first stop I run the Media Setting Check before I print the target for this paper. Now the manufacturer (Hahnemuhle) recommend using a setting of Velvet Fine Art on the Epson 3800 printer. So I tried this and printed the test image on Hahnemuhle paper and saw that some of the colour blocks are 'overlapping' each other ever so slightly. In addition there is a little of what I believe is called 'mottling' on certain mid-tone patches in certain areas... Anyway, so I thought I would try to run the same print using an media type of Ultrasmooth. On this setting it seems I don't get the 'overlapping' problem and the mottling is much less. But on this setting the shadow details in the deep blacks is not quite as good as the Velvet Fine Art print... hmmm... So as a final step I tried to reduce the ink limit in the printing preferences by -10%. This reduced the mottling again but now I found that some of the highlight areas in the 'faces' part of the test image are starting to lose some detail/tone...

So I'm a bit stuck right here... The Datacolour help files provide some examples of problems you might expect when running the media check test but they don't really seem to provide any solutions for these?

Any help would be great,

Rgds
Rick

>>So I'm a bit stuck right here... The Datacolour help files provide some examples of problems you might expect when running the media check test but they don't really seem to provide any solutions for these?

They provide priorities, in the order that the effects are listed, but yes, there is no perfect solution, just a choice to be made. As I suggested on another list, I'd first try profiling at the setting that gets smooth colors, and a bit to much density in the shadows, and if the profile doesn't fix this automatically to your tastes, then use the shadow detail control to adjust it.  

C. David Tobie
Global Product Technology Manager
Digital Imaging and Home Theater
Datacolor inc. 
cdtobie@...
www.datacolor.com

On May 22, 2010, at 7:50 AM, "rickbehl" <RickBehl@...> wrote:

> So I'm a bit stuck right here... The Datacolour help files provide some examples of problems you might expect when running the media check test but they don't really seem to provide any solutions for these?

--- In datacolor_group@yahoogroups.com, C D Tobie <CDTobie@...> wrote:
>
> >>So I'm a bit stuck right here... The Datacolour help files provide some examples of problems you might expect when running the media check test but they don't really seem to provide any solutions for these?
> 
> They provide priorities, in the order that the effects are listed, but yes, there is no perfect solution, just a choice to be made. As I suggested on another list, I'd first try profiling at the setting that gets smooth colors, and a bit to much density in the shadows, and if the profile doesn't fix this automatically to your tastes, then use the shadow detail control to adjust it.  
> 
> C. David Tobie
> Global Product Technology Manager
> Digital Imaging and Home Theater
> Datacolor inc. 
> cdtobie@...
> www.datacolor.com
> 
> On May 22, 2010, at 7:50 AM, "rickbehl" <RickBehl@...> wrote:
> 
> > So I'm a bit stuck right here... The Datacolour help files provide some examples of problems you might expect when running the media check test but they don't really seem to provide any solutions for these?
>

I could try that if that is the best suggestion? It's just I'm wary of spending time, paper and ink on something if I know I am going to have to redo it again shortly afterwards... So if I can get things ás right as possible first time round that would be better...

Can you tell me where you posted the other message on this subject. I wouldn't mind reading there too.

Rgds
Rick

Not to worry, I found your other response, thanks... So for now maybe I will try profiling using the Ultrasmooth setting with adjusting the shadow detail control... Out of interest is this preferable to trying to do the same using a curve in photoshop? I guess by building it into the profile you are kind of assuming that the level of shadow detail 'lifting' that will be required will be the same for all images?

Rgds
Rick

--- In datacolor_group@yahoogroups.com, C D Tobie <CDTobie@...> wrote:

>
> >>So I'm a bit stuck right here... The Datacolour help files provide some examples of problems you might expect when running the media check test but they don't really seem to provide any solutions for these?
> 
> They provide priorities, in the order that the effects are listed, but yes, there is no perfect solution, just a choice to be made. As I suggested on another list, I'd first try profiling at the setting that gets smooth colors, and a bit to much density in the shadows, and if the profile doesn't fix this automatically to your tastes, then use the shadow detail control to adjust it.  
> 
> C. David Tobie
> Global Product Technology Manager
> Digital Imaging and Home Theater
> Datacolor inc. 
> cdtobie@...
> www.datacolor.com
> 
> On May 22, 2010, at 7:50 AM, "rickbehl" <RickBehl@...> wrote:
> 
> > So I'm a bit stuck right here... The Datacolour help files provide some examples of problems you might expect when running the media check test but they don't really seem to provide any solutions for these?
>

> I could try that if that is the best suggestion? It's just I'm wary of spending time, paper and ink on something if I know I am going to have to redo it again shortly afterwards... So if I can get things ás right as possible first time round that would be better...

It's a good starting point - I look for similar thing when profiling myself.  The media settings often give somewhat vague results, but smoothness and no over-inking are two aspects I check quite carefully.

There are often no 'correct' answers in aspects of colour management, more a trade off between effort and return.  The key is knowing when to stop...  Every so often I ask visitors to have a look at two versions of a print, using different profiles. It sometimes helps to realise that you are 'seeing' differences that are invisible to most people.

Some people do still believe in 'perfection' - these are the ones who's details I'd pass on to a friend of mine who sells paper and ink ;-)  

bye for now
Keith Cooper

On May 22, 2010, at 10:05 AM, rickbehl wrote:

> Not to worry, I found your other response, thanks... So for now  
> maybe I will try profiling using the Ultrasmooth setting with  
> adjusting the shadow detail control... Out of interest is this  
> preferable to trying to do the same using a curve in photoshop? I  
> guess by building it into the profile you are kind of assuming that  
> the level of shadow detail 'lifting' that will be required will be  
> the same for all images?

Yes, this is for media/ink/printer/driver related functions, that tend  
to effect all images equally. Which is not to say that you will want  
the same degree of shadow detail in all images, but you can adjust  
that as needed, on an image by image basis, in Photoshop, using your  
output profile in softproof mode, to get the best representation of  
where you stand in advance, to avoid as many trial and error test  
prints as possible.

C. David Tobie
Global Product Technology Manager
Digital Imaging & Home Theater
CDTobie@...