Disklavier

about pedals, i have a program that interpolates progressive pedaling in 
to MIDI files. not sure if i put it on my web site or not. i recently 
went through testing with Geoff Ward and i believe we found the program 
to do what it should. it definitely reduces pedal noise. i am really 
busy right now getting ready for a trip but will probably be stuck in 
the airport for hours later today (weather) and can make sure a working 
version is posted to my server.

if anyone is interested, let me know. i have a lot to do so will not 
bother unless people want it.

On 2/18/2014 12:01 AM, Skanter123 wrote:
>
>>
>> Sorry about that. I mis-read your question. George will need to 
>> respond on your Controller 7 question about how it affects the 
>> Disklavier. I just know that Controller 7 is set to 100 at the 
>> beginning of Yamaha PianoSoft Disklavier files.
>
> Hmmm...I'm wondering how MIDI volume (controller 7) can affect an 
> acoustic piano. It seems the only way to affect volume on a DKV is by 
> velocity or soft pedal (bringing hammers closer),
>
>>
>> I have not seen any sort of volume control curve for Disklavier.
>>
>> Noisy pedals - This is usually the result of playing MIDI files that 
>> have ON/OFF pedaling, instead of incremental pedaling. During 
>> playback, ON/OFF pedaling goes from full OFF to full ON and then back 
>> to full OFF. This is much noiser (and much less musical) than 
>> incremental pedaling. I imagine that when you record on your 
>> Disklavier, the playback of the pedals is much better, right?
>
> Yes! This makes sense.  I wonder if there is a simple way to control 
> this when playing MIDI files that only have ON/OFF? Probably some 
> utility somewhere...
>
> Thanks again!
>
>>
>> Bill
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Skanter123 <skanter123@... <mailto:skanter123@...>>
>> To: disklavier <disklavier@yahoogroups.com 
>> <mailto:disklavier@yahoogroups.com>>
>> Cc: disklavier <disklavier@yahoogroups.com 
>> <mailto:disklavier@yahoogroups.com>>
>> Sent: Mon, Feb 17, 2014 10:53 pm
>> Subject: Re: [disklavier] DKV volume
>>
>>
>>
>> Sam
>> www.keyboardcollective.com <http://www.keyboardcollective.com>
>> (212) 684-3304
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On Feb 18, 2014, at 1:36 AM, Bill Brandom <billbrando@... 
>> <mailto:billbrando@...>>
>>
>>
>> Bill, thanks for your detailed reply. I'm still confused about a few 
>> things, though.
>>
>>>
>>>
>>> You stated that you are reducing MIDI velocities and not hearing a 
>>> difference on the Disklavier. My guess is that your music must be 
>>> playing pretty softly and the Disklavier will not attempt to play it 
>>> any softer, even with the velocities reduced. Just to confirm that 
>>> your velocity changes are or are not working, take a very high 
>>> velocity note and reduce its velocity considerably and see if the 
>>> Disklavier plays it back considerable softer.
>>
>> I said that lowering MIDI VOLUME (not velocity) produced no affect. 
>> I'm not sure how changing MIDI volume (controller #7) affects the DKV 
>> if at all. Is it supposed to?
>>
>>>
>>> The built in volume control on the Disklavier compresses the 
>>> playback, reducing the highest velocity notes much more than the 
>>> lower velocity notes. On your MPX100II, at a certain volume level (I 
>>> think -7, the hammer rest rail of your piano moves the hammers much 
>>> closer to the strings, thereby making the piano play much softer.)
>>
>> On my DKV, the velocity seems to decrease as I bring it down from 0 
>> to -10, but I'm not sure what the curve is. Is there a graphic 
>> showing this curve? I assume the  volume control affects velocity 
>> only, and not the soft pedal?
>>
>> Another unrelated issue i have is that, on some MIDI file playback, 
>> the damper pedal is quite noisy. It is sustaining notes properly but 
>> moving up and down more than it needs to (like some of my beginning 
>> students who stamp on the pedal until they learn to use it).  Is 
>> there a way to control the continuous movement of the pedal to limit 
>> it's movement somewhat so it will be quieter?
>>
>> Thanks in advance for your help...
>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Bill
>>>
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: Skanter123 <skanter123@... <mailto:skanter123@...>>
>>> To: disklavier <disklavier@yahoogroups.com 
>>> <mailto:disklavier@yahoogroups.com>>
>>> Sent: Mon, Feb 17, 2014 8:43 pm
>>> Subject: Re: [disklavier] DKV volume
>>>
>>> Thanks, George.
>>>
>>> Being a synthesist as well as pianist, I was there at MIDI's start, 
>>> and know my way around SYSEX charts, but am still confused about how 
>>> MIDI volume and velocity affects an acousto-electric instrument like 
>>> the DKV.
>>>
>>> I see no affect when I lower MIDI volume of MIDI files with a 
>>> sequencer. How is that supposed to work? Also, does changing 
>>> velocity values affect the force or speed of the hammers, or just 
>>> implement the soft pedal? What exactly does the built-in volume 
>>> control on DKV do, is it the same on all DKVs? Mine is a 1997 MPX100II.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Sam
>>> www.keyboardcollective.com <http://www.keyboardcollective.com>
>>> (212) 684-3304
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Feb 17, 2014, at 7:04 PM, Bill Brandom <bill.brandom03@... 
>>> <mailto:bill.brandom03@...>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> George,
>>>>
>>>> Great Disklavier volume explanation!!
>>>>
>>>> Bill
>>>>
>>>> On Feb 17, 2014, at 2:41 PM, George Frederick Litterst 
>>>> <PianoBench@... <mailto:PianoBench@...>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Good afternoon, everyone.
>>>>
>>>> Here is a comprehensive dissertation on the various elements that 
>>>> affect playback volume of the Disklavier:
>>>>
>>>> *(1) Disklavier's Volume Setting on the Control Panel*
>>>> For all Disklaviers except the Mark IV, volume is set on a scale of 
>>>> 0 to -10. A setting of 0 is the default (full volume) and is the 
>>>> only setting that properly plays back a file that was recorded on 
>>>> the instrument. All of the other volume settings on the control 
>>>> panel result in the volume being scaled down, with -10 as the 
>>>> lowest setting.
>>>>
>>>> The Mark IV is a bit different. The hand-held PRC has a volume 
>>>> meter that goes from 1 to 127. A value of 100 is normal, full 
>>>> volume. A higher value scales up the volume beyond normal, and a 
>>>> lower setting scales down the volume.
>>>>
>>>> Bottom Line: For accurate playback, set your Disklavier's volume to 
>>>> 0 (or to 100, in the case of the Mark IV).
>>>>
>>>> *(2) MIDI Note-on Velocity*
>>>> Depending upon the model of Disklavier, MIDI note-on velocity 
>>>> represents either the hammer velocity of the note (in the case of 
>>>> instruments that have hammer sensors) or the key velocity of a note 
>>>> (in the case of the Disklaviers that do not have hammer sensors). 
>>>> The range of possible values is 0 to 127. A value of 0 in the MIDI 
>>>> world is the same as a note-off message. Therefore, the effective 
>>>> minimum value is 1 and the maximum value is 127.
>>>>
>>>> In the case of casual playing, the Disklavier generates note-on 
>>>> values in the range of about 40 to 90. When an artist pushes the 
>>>> dynamic range of the instrument, the low values may start in the 
>>>> 15-20 range and go up into the 105-115 range. It is rather unusual 
>>>> for a pianist to generate note-on values above 115. Note-on values 
>>>> below 20 are often brushed notes that were barely played and/or 
>>>> which may have been accidentally played.
>>>>
>>>> Unfortunately, there is no industry standard for what a particular 
>>>> MIDI note-on value actually means. If you record a MIDI file on 
>>>> certain Yamaha keyboards--such as an AvantGrand or a Clavinova, the 
>>>> playback on the Disklavier will sound pretty good. If you record on 
>>>> a Yamaha DGX-640, playback may sound OK in the soft range but will 
>>>> sound bizarre in the medium to loud range with certain notes 
>>>> unexpectedly jumping out at you. The reason is that the velocity 
>>>> profile of the DGX-640 does not match the velocity profile of the 
>>>> Disklavier.
>>>>
>>>> Many light action keyboards routinely generate velocities in the 
>>>> range of 100-127. When those files are played on a Disklavier, it 
>>>> may sound as though one is taking a sledgehammer to the instrument. 
>>>> The best way to adjust for these files is to scale down the 
>>>> velocities so that they are within the Disklavier's normal range. 
>>>> That does not mean that the resulting velocity profile will match 
>>>> up musically with the Diskla vier's profile, but at least the sound 
>>>> will not be excruciatingly loud.
>>>>
>>>> Bottom Line: It's best to stick with files that were recorded on 
>>>> the Disklavier or which were recorded with instruments that have 
>>>> similar velocity profiles.
>>>>
>>>> NOTE: The Disklavier PRO records note-on velocity with higher than 
>>>> normal resolution, effectively on a scale of 0 - 1023 where the 
>>>> Disklavier PRO's 0 = normal MIDI 0 and the Disklavier PRO's 1023 = 
>>>> normal MIDI 127. The extra bits of resolution are stored as MIDI 
>>>> controller data.
>>>>
>>>> *(3) MIDI Controller 7*
>>>> The MIDI spec has provision for 128 controllers, numbered from 0 to 
>>>> 127. Many of these controllers are defined for specific purposes. 
>>>> For example:
>>>>
>>>> Controller 64 = sustain pedal
>>>> Controller 66 = /sostenuto/ pedal
>>>> Controller 67 = /una corda/ pedal
>>>>
>>>> Many controllers are undefined.
>>>>
>>>> The controllers that typically affect volume are controller 7 
>>>> (known as Volume) and controller 11 (known as Expression).
>>>>
>>>> Each track of a properly formatted MIDI file has a controller 7 
>>>> value at the beginning of the track that sets an overall relative 
>>>> volume for the entire track. Imagine, for example, that you are 
>>>> creating a multitrack MIDI file for piano, bass, and flute. You 
>>>> might start by setting controller 7 = 100 at the beginning of each 
>>>> track. After you finish recording each track, if you decide that 
>>>> the flute part is a bit soft, you might raise its controller 7 
>>>> value. If the bass is too loud, you might lower its controller 7 
>>>> value a bit.
>>>>
>>>> In other words, you might use the controller 7 values like sliders 
>>>> on a channel mixer.
>>>>
>>>> In theory, these controller 7 values function much like swell 
>>>> shades in a pipe organ. A rank of pipes lives inside a chamber that 
>>>> is separated from the audience by a wall of louvered panels. When 
>>>> the organist rocks down or up on the swell pedal, these louvered 
>>>> panels close or open, thus causing the rank of pipes to sound 
>>>> softer or allowing them to sound louder.
>>>>
>>>> If controller 7 could be properly implemented on an acoustic piano, 
>>>> it would result in the lid of the piano being moved farther up or 
>>>> down, thus allowing the sound to be louder or causing it to be 
>>>> softer. Of course this is not practical. Therefore, if the 
>>>> controller 7 value for the piano part is higher or lower than 100, 
>>>> the Disklavier scales up or down the note-on velocities in order to 
>>>> simulate the same effect.
>>>>
>>>> Unfortunately, the authors of many MIDI files that you find on the 
>>>> Internet assign high values for controller 7 for the piano tracks. 
>>>> The reason is that they are listening to keyboards or tone 
>>>> generators that have weak piano samples. Therefore, they try to get 
>>>> a more robust sound by increasing the volume level--often in 
>>>> combination with deploying high key velocities. This can result in 
>>>> destructively loud sound when these files are played on a Disklavier.
>>>>
>>>> Bottom Line: As stated above, it's best to stick with files that 
>>>> were recorded on the Disklavier or which were recorded with 
>>>> instruments that have similar velocity profiles. If you want to 
>>>> play files from other sources, it is best to make sure that 
>>>> controller 7 is set to 100 for the piano track and that the note-on 
>>>> velocities are within the normal range of what is generated by the 
>>>> Disklavier.
>>>>
>>>> *(4) MIDI Controller 11*
>>>> MIDI controller 11 is known as Expression. In most cases, it 
>>>> functions identically to controller 7.
>>>>
>>>> Authors of multitrack MIDI files often use controller 7 to set 
>>>> overall volume levels for each track (placing these messages at the 
>>>> beginning of the file) and then use controller 11 later in the file 
>>>> to make small adjustments to the instrumental balance or to 
>>>> generate crescendos and diminuendos in the case of wind and bowed 
>>>> instruments whose notes can sustain indefinitely.
>>>>
>>>> There is no need for controller 11 in a piano track. In the case of 
>>>> the Disklavier, using controller 11 in the piano track only serves 
>>>> to confuse the controller 7 setting.
>>>>
>>>> Bottom Line: If you play files that have controller 11 messages in 
>>>> the piano track, it is best to get rid of them.
>>>>
>>>> Regards,
>>>> PianoBench
>>>> *
>>>> *
>>>> On Feb 17, 2014, at 1:59 PM, Sam Kanter wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> So is volume on DKV normally set to 0, 3, or is it variable for 
>>>>> each MIDI file?
>>>>>
>>>>> Sam
>>>>> www.keyboardcollective.com <http://www.keyboardcollective.com/>
>>>>> (212) 684-3304
>>>>>
>>>>> /*(Sent from phone - please excuse brevity and typos.)/
>>>>>
>>>>> On Feb 16, 2014, at 7:49 PM, Bill Brandom 
>>>>> <bill.brandom03@... <mailto:bill.brandom03@...>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Yamaha PianoSoft files for Disklavier have controller 7 set to 
>>>>>> 100 at the beginning of each file. Without it, files typically 
>>>>>> play too loud on a Disklavier.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Bill
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Feb 16, 2014, at 4:43 PM, Skanter123 <skanter123@... 
>>>>>> <mailto:skanter123@...>> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Hi everyone,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I've been unclear about this: regarding volume, is there a 
>>>>>> "normal" volume for playback of MIDI files, i.e. the thousands on 
>>>>>> www.disklavierworld.com <http://www.disklavierworld.com/>?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I've been using 3, but wondering if 0 is the starting point. Is 
>>>>>> each MIDI file different volume?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Thanks in advance...
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
> 

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