Disklavier

It might be that you're pushing this test further than I.  Perhaps your
pieces involve more precise timing of notes, and I'm just not noticing any
discrepancy with the stuff I'm working on.  Some more responses to your
responses...

>>
I see, why not the "Silent" piano sample sound ( much better)?
Shouldn't it respond just like the GM sound?
<<

Maybe you figured a way around this, but the only way I can get the awesome
"Silent" piano sample to play is if I configure the unit to respond via real
piano on a particular MIDI channel, and then push the Silent button.  When I
do this, the real piano keys play, but the strings are silenced, and you
hear the sample instead.  Because this invokes the real piano keys, you have
the same exact ms delay problem as if you're just using the full piano for
playback.  You either turn off the 500ms delay and deal with inconsistent
delays of notes (from what I hear the actual delay will depend on the
velocity of the notes!), or you turn on the 500ms delay, and everything's
consistent.  But then you have to push your sequencer's version of the notes
backward in time, which prevents any useful editing of the notes.

If there's a way to invoke the Silent sample sound via Midi without going
through the mechanical keys, I'd love to know about it!

>>
Boy, I wish Cubase had this. I have to do the math: I'll probably do a
spreadsheet (386ppq/bpm/msec. )Logic has a ms. delay setting , but VST
is only +/-up to "500 ticks/ approx 256 for the track and 256 for the
part" - different for each tempo!!!@##$%.
<<

Maybe Cubase can do this.  In Cakewalk, there isn't actually a millisecond
measurement you can adjust notes by.  Instead it's by SMPTE frames (30 per
second).  So what I actually do is multi-select all events on the track I
want to adjust, and use the command to apply a -15 frame offset (15 is half
of 30, so since 30 = 1 second, 15 = half a second, or 500ms, and -15 pulls
things backward).  I used Cubase a few years ago, and it seemed just as
powerful as Cakewalk to me (I just happen to find Cakewalk more intuitive
and easy to use), so I'd be surprised if they didn't have a method for doing
this.  Maybe the "logical edit" command has a way to apply an offset to the
timings for all notes in a selection?

>>
DC7 Pro has no midi thru.
<<

Oh, I was probably misremembering.  At the time I was probably using the
THRU on a different box, and had the Yamaha at the end of the chain or
something.

>>
I think so, for example, I'm playing a Roland 2080 module el. pno sound
in silent mode: laggy...., and when I play with silent mode off, what
comes up on the edit screen is late and notes are shorter. I've tested
my other controllers ( Pc-88, Jv-80) w/ same midi cables and modules;
no problem. Playing a simple trill gives it away since it plays back
staccato in many cases. Not the way it sounded when i played it or
pretty impossible for that matter.
<<

Yeah, that sounds pretty annoying!  Maybe Mark's idea of using the HOST port
will yield you better results, though I haven't tried that myself.  In fact,
it sounds like you have the same problem as I: using the TO HOST isn't
really feasible, because we both need several MIDI OUT ports from the
computer (more than 2), and I don't think the Yamaha's TO HOST port will do
that for us.  This is probably a long shot, but are there any other midi
instruments in the same chain as your DC7PRO?  Or does your piano's OUT go
directly to an IN on your midi interface?  If the former, maybe part of your
problem is just the typical MIDI delay you'll get when the total cable
length the message must traverse is high?  Seeing the note lengths get
changed, though, really sounds screwy.

You probably shouldn't make any final decisions until you've had a full
servicing of the piano in your home (in addition to whatever they did in the
store).  This could be a simple matter of needing adjustments on the key
sensors so that a note off isn't sent too soon.  My experience has been that
a few keys were a little out of whack, initially, in their sensors.  You hit
one note at a given hardness level and the Silent sample (or any instrument
receiving the MIDI message) is pretty loud, but you hit another note at the
same hardness level, and it doesn't even make contact--and thus the "note
on" isn't even sent at all.  After a couple visits by my technician, any
problems I had were taken care of.

BTW, I only record in standard as well, for the same reason.  Until they
come up with a way to edit all the XP information graphically, and have it
auto-adjust the parameters when you change the notes, it's just not feasible
to do this.  Unless, of course, you're always perfect any time you record
anything, and have no need to do post-recording edits.  :-)


				Dave

-----Original Message-----
From: gk@... [mailto:gk@...]
Sent: Monday, February 28, 2000 11:34 AM
To: disklavier@...
Subject: [disklavier] Re: Disklavier midi delay


Thanks David and Mark,

I just ran the maintainance routine late last night so I'll do more
tests today.....more comments below.

 david broman <davb-@...> wrote: 
original article:http://www.egroups.com/group/disklavier/?start=282
> I'm using a DC3PRO via the MIDI port (not TO HOST) to a Win98 PC,
running
> Cakewalk Pro Audio.  I'm also recording multiple tracks-- some piano,
and
> some other MIDI instruments from other MIDI sound modules.  When the
piece
> is complete, I always have the 500ms delay on (it's way too
inconsistent
> without that), and I compensate in the sequencer as follows...
> 
> 1) When initially developing and recording the piece, I don't use the
piano
> for playback at all.  I just set the sequencer track to access the GM
MIDI
> instrument #1 on the Yamaha sound module.  This is the grand piano
sound but
> doesn't invoke either the physical piano keys or the amazing "Silent"
piano
> synth.  It's just a standard MIDI piano sound. 

I see, why not the "Silent" piano sample sound ( much better)?
Shouldn't it respond just like the GM sound?

 During this stage, I can
> turn off the delay, and the Yamaha responds as perfectly as any MIDI
box.
> Note that I'm still using the Yamaha piano as the controller; just
not the
> piano as the playback instrument yet.


Cool..since you hear the strings, when playing pno parts that is..
> 
> 2) Once all the tracks are laid down, quantized, tweaked, etc., then
(and
> ONLY then) it's time to invoke the actual piano.  To do this, I go to
the
> Yamaha console and tell it to have the piano respond to the channel
I'm
> transmitting on, and then take the Yamaha track (or tracks) in my
sequencer
> and pull it backward in time (i.e., toward the left) 500ms.  In
Cakewalk you
> can even record a macro to make this an easy-to-perform operation
(which I
> did: I call it the "Disklavier Slide").  Now, I turn on the 500ms
delay on
> the Yamaha, and I'm in business.
> 


Boy, I wish Cubase had this. I have to do the math: I'll probably do a
spreadsheet (386ppq/bpm/msec. )Logic has a ms. delay setting , but VST
is only +/-up to "500 ticks/ approx 256 for the track and 256 for the
part" - different for each tempo!!!@##$%.


> This assumes that you're not connecting any other MIDI instruments
via the
> Yamaha's THRU port.  

DC7 Pro has no midi thru.

This is apparently discouraged anyway, though, since
> it's impossible to silence the Yamaha on an arbitrary MIDI channel
(which
> would be necessary if you had another MIDI instrument going through
that
> same port which you wanted to respond to that channel without having
the
> Yamaha respond as well).
> 
> Anyway, the end result sounds perfect to me.  Seems like you said
below that
> you have no problems compensating for the 500ms delay, though.  If
you mean
> that you're doing the same thing I'm doing, but you're still having
some
> kind of problem, I'd be interested to know exactly what the problem
is.  As
> far as I can tell, the timing sounds absolutely perfect when I do the
above
> steps.
> 

I think so, for example, I'm playing a Roland 2080 module el. pno sound
in silent mode: laggy...., and when I play with silent mode off, what
comes up on the edit screen is late and notes are shorter. I've tested
my other controllers ( Pc-88, Jv-80) w/ same midi cables and modules;
no problem. Playing a simple trill gives it away since it plays back
staccato in many cases. Not the way it sounded when i played it or
pretty impossible for that matter.

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Mark Wisner [mailto:MWisner@...]
> Sent: Monday, February 28, 2000 8:36 AM
> To: disklavier@egroups.com
> Subject: [disklavier] Re: Disklavier midi delay
> 
> 
> Which mode are you recording in? ( XP or Standard)  Have you tried
using the
> host port instead of the midi ports?  Midi interfaces are notorious
for
> "coloring" the data.

BTW, I'm only recording in standard, i.e. enhanced mode , not XP(
recommended for midi editing, right, since you can't keep xp data
integrity when you move midi notes). I use a Music Quest 8 Port SE 8x8
midi PC Interface with a large multi module setup. Host midi is not
feasable, I think.

Got a better idea? I have to sort these problems out soon so I can get
back to my CD project.

Thanks, 

Gregg

> 
> 				Dave
> 

> 
> 
> Anyone else using the Disklavier Pro for Computer/MIDI dissapointed w/
> the midi lag on midi out of the DK. Any tweaks for better response?
> 
> I just took delivery of my new DC7 PRO and the internal recorder is
98%
> there and great for the home market, but using it for precise
> (professional, real time, jazzy ) midi recording has been time
consuming
> and has me dissolutioned. I have no problem compensating for the 500
ms
> delay on a ghost track for piano playback, but this is not
> "profesional".
> 
> Local mode sounds fine in Silent. I am recording into PC / VST / LOgic
> .  But when I go to Local off ( Midi thru the PC) I experience what
> feels like 3-8ms delay. Not fun for playing tight. Also, the events
> appear late on the edit screen so selectively quantizing notes moves
> them farther away from the unquantized ones. Not acceptable.
> 
> Another BIG  problem: the midi note length on output is shorter >  I
can
> tell the difference both while I'm playing other piano synth module
> sounds and especially on playback of fast passages to the DK.
> 
> 
> I'm considering returning this if I find this problem to be unfixable.
> Any ideas??
> 
> 
> 
> Thanks,
> Gregg
> 
> 
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> Mark Wisner
> Piano Service
> Yamaha Corporation
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> 
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