Disklavier

Hi ,

Anyone else using the Disklavier Pro for Computer/MIDI dissapointed w/
the midi lag on midi out of the DK. Any tweaks for better response?

I just took delivery of my new DC7 PRO and the internal recorder is 98%
there and great for the home market, but using it for precise
(professional, real time, jazzy ) midi recording has been time consuming
and has me dissolutioned. I have no problem compensating for the 500 ms
delay on a ghost track for piano playback, but this is not
"profesional".

Local mode sounds fine in Silent. I am recording into PC / VST / LOgic
.  But when I go to Local off ( Midi thru the PC) I experience what
feels like 3-8ms delay. Not fun for playing tight. Also, the events
appear late on the edit screen so selectively quantizing notes moves
them farther away from the unquantized ones. Not acceptable.

Another BIG  problem: the midi note length on output is shorter >  I can
tell the difference both while I'm playing other piano synth module
sounds and especially on playback of fast passages to the DK.


I'm considering returning this if I find this problem to be unfixable.
Any ideas??



Thanks,
Gregg

Which mode are you recording in? ( XP or Standard)  Have you tried using the host port instead of the midi ports?  Midi interfaces are notorious for "coloring" the data.


Anyone else using the Disklavier Pro for Computer/MIDI dissapointed w/
the midi lag on midi out of the DK. Any tweaks for better response?

I just took delivery of my new DC7 PRO and the internal recorder is 98%
there and great for the home market, but using it for precise
(professional, real time, jazzy ) midi recording has been time consuming
and has me dissolutioned. I have no problem compensating for the 500 ms
delay on a ghost track for piano playback, but this is not
"profesional".

Local mode sounds fine in Silent. I am recording into PC / VST / LOgic
.  But when I go to Local off ( Midi thru the PC) I experience what
feels like 3-8ms delay. Not fun for playing tight. Also, the events
appear late on the edit screen so selectively quantizing notes moves
them farther away from the unquantized ones. Not acceptable.

Another BIG  problem: the midi note length on output is shorter >  I can
tell the difference both while I'm playing other piano synth module
sounds and especially on playback of fast passages to the DK.


I'm considering returning this if I find this problem to be unfixable.
Any ideas??



Thanks,
Gregg


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Mark Wisner
Piano Service
Yamaha Corporation
mwisner@yamaha.com

I'm using a DC3PRO via the MIDI port (not TO HOST) to a Win98 PC, running
Cakewalk Pro Audio.  I'm also recording multiple tracks-- some piano, and
some other MIDI instruments from other MIDI sound modules.  When the piece
is complete, I always have the 500ms delay on (it's way too inconsistent
without that), and I compensate in the sequencer as follows...

1) When initially developing and recording the piece, I don't use the piano
for playback at all.  I just set the sequencer track to access the GM MIDI
instrument #1 on the Yamaha sound module.  This is the grand piano sound but
doesn't invoke either the physical piano keys or the amazing "Silent" piano
synth.  It's just a standard MIDI piano sound.  During this stage, I can
turn off the delay, and the Yamaha responds as perfectly as any MIDI box.
Note that I'm still using the Yamaha piano as the controller; just not the
piano as the playback instrument yet.

2) Once all the tracks are laid down, quantized, tweaked, etc., then (and
ONLY then) it's time to invoke the actual piano.  To do this, I go to the
Yamaha console and tell it to have the piano respond to the channel I'm
transmitting on, and then take the Yamaha track (or tracks) in my sequencer
and pull it backward in time (i.e., toward the left) 500ms.  In Cakewalk you
can even record a macro to make this an easy-to-perform operation (which I
did: I call it the "Disklavier Slide").  Now, I turn on the 500ms delay on
the Yamaha, and I'm in business.

This assumes that you're not connecting any other MIDI instruments via the
Yamaha's THRU port.  This is apparently discouraged anyway, though, since
it's impossible to silence the Yamaha on an arbitrary MIDI channel (which
would be necessary if you had another MIDI instrument going through that
same port which you wanted to respond to that channel without having the
Yamaha respond as well).

Anyway, the end result sounds perfect to me.  Seems like you said below that
you have no problems compensating for the 500ms delay, though.  If you mean
that you're doing the same thing I'm doing, but you're still having some
kind of problem, I'd be interested to know exactly what the problem is.  As
far as I can tell, the timing sounds absolutely perfect when I do the above
steps.


				Dave

-----Original Message-----
From: Mark Wisner [mailto:MWisner@...]
Sent: Monday, February 28, 2000 8:36 AM
To: disklavier@egroups.com
Subject: [disklavier] Re: Disklavier midi delay


Which mode are you recording in? ( XP or Standard)  Have you tried using the
host port instead of the midi ports?  Midi interfaces are notorious for
"coloring" the data.


Anyone else using the Disklavier Pro for Computer/MIDI dissapointed w/
the midi lag on midi out of the DK. Any tweaks for better response?

I just took delivery of my new DC7 PRO and the internal recorder is 98%
there and great for the home market, but using it for precise
(professional, real time, jazzy ) midi recording has been time consuming
and has me dissolutioned. I have no problem compensating for the 500 ms
delay on a ghost track for piano playback, but this is not
"profesional".

Local mode sounds fine in Silent. I am recording into PC / VST / LOgic
.  But when I go to Local off ( Midi thru the PC) I experience what
feels like 3-8ms delay. Not fun for playing tight. Also, the events
appear late on the edit screen so selectively quantizing notes moves
them farther away from the unquantized ones. Not acceptable.

Another BIG  problem: the midi note length on output is shorter >  I can
tell the difference both while I'm playing other piano synth module
sounds and especially on playback of fast passages to the DK.


I'm considering returning this if I find this problem to be unfixable.
Any ideas??



Thanks,
Gregg


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Mark Wisner
Piano Service
Yamaha Corporation
mwisner@...


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Hello All,
I email Pianodisc to ask about attaching a CD-Player to my PDS128 plus and
here is what they said:
Has anyone tried this, and does it work?



Dear Anthony,

First of all, thank you for your inquiry.  Since you have the PDS128 Plus
system, you have the capability to tie in a CD player from your home stereo
system via standard RCA cables.  This will allow you to enjoy our PianoCD
library.  Regarding our new PianoCD add-on unit, this will tie into the
same PDS128 Plus system, provided the serial number (bottom of PDS128 Plus
control box) is March of 1999, or later.  To establish this, the first four
numeric digits (i.e. K0399####) refer to the date of manufacture.  If yours
is older, you will need to send your control box back to us for a simple
upgrade (no charge) which requires the addition of a small component,
allowing the two control boxes to communicate in link mode.  This will also
require you to have the latest 4.0 software version installed in your
control box and C.P.U..  Please contact your dealer to make these
arrangements.  You will not need to do this upgrade if you don't intend on
purchasing PianoCD, and are content with your own CD player.  Should you
have any other specific questions, feel free to contact me at this
toll-free number:  877/ 350-3472.  Hopefully, I answered your questions.

Sincerely,

John Sagissor
Regional Sales Manager

RE: CD player with PianoDisc 128+

Yes, it does work and very well. I just got a little portable player and
made a little shelf for it under the front edge of the piano and hooked
it up. I used a pair of  self amplified speakers for one side of the
output of the player, which is split to each speaker and the other side
goes to the PD unit. I use the PD cd's and all works Very Well.

Jim

>RE: CD player with PianoDisc 128+
>
>Yes, it does work and very well. I just got a little portable player and
>made a little shelf for it under the front edge of the piano and hooked
>it up. I used a pair of  self amplified speakers for one side of the
>output of the player, which is split to each speaker and the other side
>goes to the PD unit. I use the PD cd's and all works Very Well.
>
>Jim

Yes that capability is built in, just plug it in and go. You can use an
inexpensive portable CD player as mentioned above, or tie it into a CD
changer and load it up with as many CD's as it holds. Use the remote for
the CD player to control it. PianoDisk also has a unit that they sell that
can be mounted under the piano, just like the floppy that you have.

Interestingly, last year around this time there was a thread on DUG about
whether Yamaha had a CD player option. The answer from one of the Yamaha
techs was that there were many drawbacks to using a CD to drive a player
piano. There are some drawbacks such as not being able to slow the tempo
down or transpose. This is outweighed by the fact that you can get some
CD's that have vocals as well as real orchestral accompaniment.

Ironically, at the NAMM show earlier this month Yamaha introduced some new
models, which incoporate guess what-a CD player mounted under the regular
floppy drive mechanism.

Glenn Grafton
Grafton Piano & Organ Co.
Souderton PA
http://www.dprint.com/grafton/
gleng@...
800-272-5980

The box said "Requires Windows 95, or better." So I bought a Macintosh.

Thanks David and Mark,

I just ran the maintainance routine late last night so I'll do more
tests today.....more comments below.

 david broman <davb-@...> wrote: 
original article:http://www.egroups.com/group/disklavier/?start=282
> I'm using a DC3PRO via the MIDI port (not TO HOST) to a Win98 PC,
running
> Cakewalk Pro Audio.  I'm also recording multiple tracks-- some piano,
and
> some other MIDI instruments from other MIDI sound modules.  When the
piece
> is complete, I always have the 500ms delay on (it's way too
inconsistent
> without that), and I compensate in the sequencer as follows...
> 
> 1) When initially developing and recording the piece, I don't use the
piano
> for playback at all.  I just set the sequencer track to access the GM
MIDI
> instrument #1 on the Yamaha sound module.  This is the grand piano
sound but
> doesn't invoke either the physical piano keys or the amazing "Silent"
piano
> synth.  It's just a standard MIDI piano sound. 

I see, why not the "Silent" piano sample sound ( much better)?
Shouldn't it respond just like the GM sound?

 During this stage, I can
> turn off the delay, and the Yamaha responds as perfectly as any MIDI
box.
> Note that I'm still using the Yamaha piano as the controller; just
not the
> piano as the playback instrument yet.


Cool..since you hear the strings, when playing pno parts that is..
> 
> 2) Once all the tracks are laid down, quantized, tweaked, etc., then
(and
> ONLY then) it's time to invoke the actual piano.  To do this, I go to
the
> Yamaha console and tell it to have the piano respond to the channel
I'm
> transmitting on, and then take the Yamaha track (or tracks) in my
sequencer
> and pull it backward in time (i.e., toward the left) 500ms.  In
Cakewalk you
> can even record a macro to make this an easy-to-perform operation
(which I
> did: I call it the "Disklavier Slide").  Now, I turn on the 500ms
delay on
> the Yamaha, and I'm in business.
> 


Boy, I wish Cubase had this. I have to do the math: I'll probably do a
spreadsheet (386ppq/bpm/msec. )Logic has a ms. delay setting , but VST
is only +/-up to "500 ticks/ approx 256 for the track and 256 for the
part" - different for each tempo!!!@##$%.


> This assumes that you're not connecting any other MIDI instruments
via the
> Yamaha's THRU port.  

DC7 Pro has no midi thru.

This is apparently discouraged anyway, though, since
> it's impossible to silence the Yamaha on an arbitrary MIDI channel
(which
> would be necessary if you had another MIDI instrument going through
that
> same port which you wanted to respond to that channel without having
the
> Yamaha respond as well).
> 
> Anyway, the end result sounds perfect to me.  Seems like you said
below that
> you have no problems compensating for the 500ms delay, though.  If
you mean
> that you're doing the same thing I'm doing, but you're still having
some
> kind of problem, I'd be interested to know exactly what the problem
is.  As
> far as I can tell, the timing sounds absolutely perfect when I do the
above
> steps.
> 

I think so, for example, I'm playing a Roland 2080 module el. pno sound
in silent mode: laggy...., and when I play with silent mode off, what
comes up on the edit screen is late and notes are shorter. I've tested
my other controllers ( Pc-88, Jv-80) w/ same midi cables and modules;
no problem. Playing a simple trill gives it away since it plays back
staccato in many cases. Not the way it sounded when i played it or
pretty impossible for that matter.

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Mark Wisner [mailto:MWisner@...]
> Sent: Monday, February 28, 2000 8:36 AM
> To: disklavier@egroups.com
> Subject: [disklavier] Re: Disklavier midi delay
> 
> 
> Which mode are you recording in? ( XP or Standard)  Have you tried
using the
> host port instead of the midi ports?  Midi interfaces are notorious
for
> "coloring" the data.

BTW, I'm only recording in standard, i.e. enhanced mode , not XP(
recommended for midi editing, right, since you can't keep xp data
integrity when you move midi notes). I use a Music Quest 8 Port SE 8x8
midi PC Interface with a large multi module setup. Host midi is not
feasable, I think.

Got a better idea? I have to sort these problems out soon so I can get
back to my CD project.

Thanks, 

Gregg

> 
> 				Dave
> 

> 
> 
> Anyone else using the Disklavier Pro for Computer/MIDI dissapointed w/
> the midi lag on midi out of the DK. Any tweaks for better response?
> 
> I just took delivery of my new DC7 PRO and the internal recorder is
98%
> there and great for the home market, but using it for precise
> (professional, real time, jazzy ) midi recording has been time
consuming
> and has me dissolutioned. I have no problem compensating for the 500
ms
> delay on a ghost track for piano playback, but this is not
> "profesional".
> 
> Local mode sounds fine in Silent. I am recording into PC / VST / LOgic
> .  But when I go to Local off ( Midi thru the PC) I experience what
> feels like 3-8ms delay. Not fun for playing tight. Also, the events
> appear late on the edit screen so selectively quantizing notes moves
> them farther away from the unquantized ones. Not acceptable.
> 
> Another BIG  problem: the midi note length on output is shorter >  I
can
> tell the difference both while I'm playing other piano synth module
> sounds and especially on playback of fast passages to the DK.
> 
> 
> I'm considering returning this if I find this problem to be unfixable.
> Any ideas??
> 
> 
> 
> Thanks,
> Gregg
> 
> 
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
---
> To Post a message, send it to:   disklavier@... 
> 
> To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: disklavier-unsubscribe@eGrou
ps.com 
> 
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
---
> Yes, I want Free PC long distance and a Free 100-song MP3 CD!
> Click here to get a FREE headset and a FREE CD while supplies last.
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> 
> -- 20 megs of disk space in your group's Document Vault
> -- http://www.egroups.com/docvault/disklavier/?m=1 
> 
> 
> 
> Mark Wisner
> Piano Service
> Yamaha Corporation
> mwisner@...
> 
> 
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
---
> To Post a message, send it to:   disklavier@...
> 
> To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: disklavier-unsubscribe@eGrou
ps.com
>

Thanks for all the great CD info.
Someone mentioned you can get CD's with vocals.  Are these avaliable from
Pianodisc?
If not, where can I get them.  I would love to hear something like that.

-----Original Message-----
From: Glenn Grafton [mailto:gleng@...]
Sent: Monday, February 28, 2000 1:11 PM
To: disklavier@egroups.com
Subject: [disklavier] Re: Pianodisc Support


>RE: CD player with PianoDisc 128+
>
>Yes, it does work and very well. I just got a little portable player and
>made a little shelf for it under the front edge of the piano and hooked
>it up. I used a pair of  self amplified speakers for one side of the
>output of the player, which is split to each speaker and the other side
>goes to the PD unit. I use the PD cd's and all works Very Well.
>
>Jim

Yes that capability is built in, just plug it in and go. You can use an
inexpensive portable CD player as mentioned above, or tie it into a CD
changer and load it up with as many CD's as it holds. Use the remote for
the CD player to control it. PianoDisk also has a unit that they sell that
can be mounted under the piano, just like the floppy that you have.

Interestingly, last year around this time there was a thread on DUG about
whether Yamaha had a CD player option. The answer from one of the Yamaha
techs was that there were many drawbacks to using a CD to drive a player
piano. There are some drawbacks such as not being able to slow the tempo
down or transpose. This is outweighed by the fact that you can get some
CD's that have vocals as well as real orchestral accompaniment.

Ironically, at the NAMM show earlier this month Yamaha introduced some new
models, which incoporate guess what-a CD player mounted under the regular
floppy drive mechanism.

Glenn Grafton
Grafton Piano & Organ Co.
Souderton PA
http://www.dprint.com/grafton/
gleng@...
800-272-5980

The box said "Requires Windows 95, or better." So I bought a Macintosh.



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It might be that you're pushing this test further than I.  Perhaps your
pieces involve more precise timing of notes, and I'm just not noticing any
discrepancy with the stuff I'm working on.  Some more responses to your
responses...

>>
I see, why not the "Silent" piano sample sound ( much better)?
Shouldn't it respond just like the GM sound?
<<

Maybe you figured a way around this, but the only way I can get the awesome
"Silent" piano sample to play is if I configure the unit to respond via real
piano on a particular MIDI channel, and then push the Silent button.  When I
do this, the real piano keys play, but the strings are silenced, and you
hear the sample instead.  Because this invokes the real piano keys, you have
the same exact ms delay problem as if you're just using the full piano for
playback.  You either turn off the 500ms delay and deal with inconsistent
delays of notes (from what I hear the actual delay will depend on the
velocity of the notes!), or you turn on the 500ms delay, and everything's
consistent.  But then you have to push your sequencer's version of the notes
backward in time, which prevents any useful editing of the notes.

If there's a way to invoke the Silent sample sound via Midi without going
through the mechanical keys, I'd love to know about it!

>>
Boy, I wish Cubase had this. I have to do the math: I'll probably do a
spreadsheet (386ppq/bpm/msec. )Logic has a ms. delay setting , but VST
is only +/-up to "500 ticks/ approx 256 for the track and 256 for the
part" - different for each tempo!!!@##$%.
<<

Maybe Cubase can do this.  In Cakewalk, there isn't actually a millisecond
measurement you can adjust notes by.  Instead it's by SMPTE frames (30 per
second).  So what I actually do is multi-select all events on the track I
want to adjust, and use the command to apply a -15 frame offset (15 is half
of 30, so since 30 = 1 second, 15 = half a second, or 500ms, and -15 pulls
things backward).  I used Cubase a few years ago, and it seemed just as
powerful as Cakewalk to me (I just happen to find Cakewalk more intuitive
and easy to use), so I'd be surprised if they didn't have a method for doing
this.  Maybe the "logical edit" command has a way to apply an offset to the
timings for all notes in a selection?

>>
DC7 Pro has no midi thru.
<<

Oh, I was probably misremembering.  At the time I was probably using the
THRU on a different box, and had the Yamaha at the end of the chain or
something.

>>
I think so, for example, I'm playing a Roland 2080 module el. pno sound
in silent mode: laggy...., and when I play with silent mode off, what
comes up on the edit screen is late and notes are shorter. I've tested
my other controllers ( Pc-88, Jv-80) w/ same midi cables and modules;
no problem. Playing a simple trill gives it away since it plays back
staccato in many cases. Not the way it sounded when i played it or
pretty impossible for that matter.
<<

Yeah, that sounds pretty annoying!  Maybe Mark's idea of using the HOST port
will yield you better results, though I haven't tried that myself.  In fact,
it sounds like you have the same problem as I: using the TO HOST isn't
really feasible, because we both need several MIDI OUT ports from the
computer (more than 2), and I don't think the Yamaha's TO HOST port will do
that for us.  This is probably a long shot, but are there any other midi
instruments in the same chain as your DC7PRO?  Or does your piano's OUT go
directly to an IN on your midi interface?  If the former, maybe part of your
problem is just the typical MIDI delay you'll get when the total cable
length the message must traverse is high?  Seeing the note lengths get
changed, though, really sounds screwy.

You probably shouldn't make any final decisions until you've had a full
servicing of the piano in your home (in addition to whatever they did in the
store).  This could be a simple matter of needing adjustments on the key
sensors so that a note off isn't sent too soon.  My experience has been that
a few keys were a little out of whack, initially, in their sensors.  You hit
one note at a given hardness level and the Silent sample (or any instrument
receiving the MIDI message) is pretty loud, but you hit another note at the
same hardness level, and it doesn't even make contact--and thus the "note
on" isn't even sent at all.  After a couple visits by my technician, any
problems I had were taken care of.

BTW, I only record in standard as well, for the same reason.  Until they
come up with a way to edit all the XP information graphically, and have it
auto-adjust the parameters when you change the notes, it's just not feasible
to do this.  Unless, of course, you're always perfect any time you record
anything, and have no need to do post-recording edits.  :-)


				Dave

-----Original Message-----
From: gk@... [mailto:gk@...]
Sent: Monday, February 28, 2000 11:34 AM
To: disklavier@...
Subject: [disklavier] Re: Disklavier midi delay


Thanks David and Mark,

I just ran the maintainance routine late last night so I'll do more
tests today.....more comments below.

 david broman <davb-@...> wrote: 
original article:http://www.egroups.com/group/disklavier/?start=282
> I'm using a DC3PRO via the MIDI port (not TO HOST) to a Win98 PC,
running
> Cakewalk Pro Audio.  I'm also recording multiple tracks-- some piano,
and
> some other MIDI instruments from other MIDI sound modules.  When the
piece
> is complete, I always have the 500ms delay on (it's way too
inconsistent
> without that), and I compensate in the sequencer as follows...
> 
> 1) When initially developing and recording the piece, I don't use the
piano
> for playback at all.  I just set the sequencer track to access the GM
MIDI
> instrument #1 on the Yamaha sound module.  This is the grand piano
sound but
> doesn't invoke either the physical piano keys or the amazing "Silent"
piano
> synth.  It's just a standard MIDI piano sound. 

I see, why not the "Silent" piano sample sound ( much better)?
Shouldn't it respond just like the GM sound?

 During this stage, I can
> turn off the delay, and the Yamaha responds as perfectly as any MIDI
box.
> Note that I'm still using the Yamaha piano as the controller; just
not the
> piano as the playback instrument yet.


Cool..since you hear the strings, when playing pno parts that is..
> 
> 2) Once all the tracks are laid down, quantized, tweaked, etc., then
(and
> ONLY then) it's time to invoke the actual piano.  To do this, I go to
the
> Yamaha console and tell it to have the piano respond to the channel
I'm
> transmitting on, and then take the Yamaha track (or tracks) in my
sequencer
> and pull it backward in time (i.e., toward the left) 500ms.  In
Cakewalk you
> can even record a macro to make this an easy-to-perform operation
(which I
> did: I call it the "Disklavier Slide").  Now, I turn on the 500ms
delay on
> the Yamaha, and I'm in business.
> 


Boy, I wish Cubase had this. I have to do the math: I'll probably do a
spreadsheet (386ppq/bpm/msec. )Logic has a ms. delay setting , but VST
is only +/-up to "500 ticks/ approx 256 for the track and 256 for the
part" - different for each tempo!!!@##$%.


> This assumes that you're not connecting any other MIDI instruments
via the
> Yamaha's THRU port.  

DC7 Pro has no midi thru.

This is apparently discouraged anyway, though, since
> it's impossible to silence the Yamaha on an arbitrary MIDI channel
(which
> would be necessary if you had another MIDI instrument going through
that
> same port which you wanted to respond to that channel without having
the
> Yamaha respond as well).
> 
> Anyway, the end result sounds perfect to me.  Seems like you said
below that
> you have no problems compensating for the 500ms delay, though.  If
you mean
> that you're doing the same thing I'm doing, but you're still having
some
> kind of problem, I'd be interested to know exactly what the problem
is.  As
> far as I can tell, the timing sounds absolutely perfect when I do the
above
> steps.
> 

I think so, for example, I'm playing a Roland 2080 module el. pno sound
in silent mode: laggy...., and when I play with silent mode off, what
comes up on the edit screen is late and notes are shorter. I've tested
my other controllers ( Pc-88, Jv-80) w/ same midi cables and modules;
no problem. Playing a simple trill gives it away since it plays back
staccato in many cases. Not the way it sounded when i played it or
pretty impossible for that matter.

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Mark Wisner [mailto:MWisner@...]
> Sent: Monday, February 28, 2000 8:36 AM
> To: disklavier@egroups.com
> Subject: [disklavier] Re: Disklavier midi delay
> 
> 
> Which mode are you recording in? ( XP or Standard)  Have you tried
using the
> host port instead of the midi ports?  Midi interfaces are notorious
for
> "coloring" the data.

BTW, I'm only recording in standard, i.e. enhanced mode , not XP(
recommended for midi editing, right, since you can't keep xp data
integrity when you move midi notes). I use a Music Quest 8 Port SE 8x8
midi PC Interface with a large multi module setup. Host midi is not
feasable, I think.

Got a better idea? I have to sort these problems out soon so I can get
back to my CD project.

Thanks, 

Gregg

> 
> 				Dave
> 

> 
> 
> Anyone else using the Disklavier Pro for Computer/MIDI dissapointed w/
> the midi lag on midi out of the DK. Any tweaks for better response?
> 
> I just took delivery of my new DC7 PRO and the internal recorder is
98%
> there and great for the home market, but using it for precise
> (professional, real time, jazzy ) midi recording has been time
consuming
> and has me dissolutioned. I have no problem compensating for the 500
ms
> delay on a ghost track for piano playback, but this is not
> "profesional".
> 
> Local mode sounds fine in Silent. I am recording into PC / VST / LOgic
> .  But when I go to Local off ( Midi thru the PC) I experience what
> feels like 3-8ms delay. Not fun for playing tight. Also, the events
> appear late on the edit screen so selectively quantizing notes moves
> them farther away from the unquantized ones. Not acceptable.
> 
> Another BIG  problem: the midi note length on output is shorter >  I
can
> tell the difference both while I'm playing other piano synth module
> sounds and especially on playback of fast passages to the DK.
> 
> 
> I'm considering returning this if I find this problem to be unfixable.
> Any ideas??
> 
> 
> 
> Thanks,
> Gregg
> 
> 
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
---
> To Post a message, send it to:   disklavier@... 
> 
> To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: disklavier-unsubscribe@eGrou
ps.com 
> 
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
---
> Yes, I want Free PC long distance and a Free 100-song MP3 CD!
> Click here to get a FREE headset and a FREE CD while supplies last.
> http://click.egroups.com/1/1985/1/_/156037/_/951736370/ 
> 
> -- 20 megs of disk space in your group's Document Vault
> -- http://www.egroups.com/docvault/disklavier/?m=1 
> 
> 
> 
> Mark Wisner
> Piano Service
> Yamaha Corporation
> mwisner@...
> 
> 
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
---
> To Post a message, send it to:   disklavier@...
> 
> To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: disklavier-unsubscribe@eGrou
ps.com
> 


------------------------------------------------------------------------
To Post a message, send it to:   disklavier@...

To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: disklavier-unsubscribe@...

------------------------------------------------------------------------
Yes, I want Free PC long distance and a Free 100-song MP3 CD!
Click here to get a FREE headset and a FREE CD while supplies last.
http://click.egroups.com/1/1985/1/_/156037/_/951767092/

-- 20 megs of disk space in your group's Document Vault
-- http://www.egroups.com/docvault/disklavier/?m=1

I don't have any but you might call PianoDisc @ 1-800-566-3472 and they
can tell you if they're available. You can also order a catalog, for
free, from them.

j

>Thanks for all the great CD info.
>Someone mentioned you can get CD's with vocals.  Are these avaliable from
>Pianodisc?
>If not, where can I get them.  I would love to hear something like that.

snip

Check out:
http://www.pianodisc.com/fmusicat.html

They don't break down the titles by type or whether they have vocal tracks.

Glenn Grafton
Grafton Piano & Organ Co.
Souderton PA
http://www.dprint.com/grafton/
gleng@...
800-272-5980

The box said "Requires Windows 95, or better." So I bought a Macintosh.

In a message dated 2/28/00 12:33:10 PM Central Standard Time, Tony@... 
writes:

<< Hello All,
 I email Pianodisc to ask about attaching a CD-Player to my PDS128 plus and
 here is what they said:
 Has anyone tried this, and does it work?
  >>

While it is true that you may hook any CD player to your PDS-128+, I must 
tell you from vast experience that there are some CD players that just don't 
interface well with the PianoDisc system. Common glitches include symphony 
discs that will play only the symphony parts and playback that just quits now 
and then with a "read and seek error" message on the screen. From talk with 
other techs, my luck seems to be worse than most. Of the 6 or so 
installations I have done with CD players, all of them had problems that were 
not fixable unless a new CD player was substituted. You can imagine customers 
reaction to that. I am assuming the the new piggyback CD from PianoDisc will 
work better since it was designed to interface with the rest of the system. 
It is, however, much more expensive than a regular CD player.

And anyway, I just don't get what the big deal is with CDs. You can't record 
on them or download free music off the Internet, there are several playback 
features that won't work with them, there are the above mentioned glitches 
that you may encounter, the entire library of music is not available on CD. 
Other compatible formats are on floppy. And the one and only advantage of the 
CDs is a few discs that have "real" instrumentation and vocals. Sounds neat 
huh? I have heard a couple of these discs and to me it is the cheesiest most 
gawd-awful thing I have ever heard. Take for example the 50s rock disc. They 
take the original recording of "Rock Around the Clock" and someone puts a 
piano part with it. The piano part sounds completely disjointed and 
inappropriate. It just doesn't work. Now I would say that the format has 
possibilities if they would start from scratch and make new recordings that 
would integrate the piano with the arrangement. I think also that part of the 
problem is that the main part of an arrangement should be the part that is 
"live," like is the case with symphony discs. When the main part of the 
arrangement is vocal, which is recorded, and the backup part, the piano, is 
live, it just sounds strange.

Just my 3 cents worth

Dave Bunch
PianoDisc Tech and Retrofit Dealer

Try the jazz CD's they are excellent.

Jim

see below...

----- Original Message -----
From: David Broman <davbr@...>
To: <disklavier@egroups.com>
Sent: Monday, February 28, 2000 4:19 PM
Subject: [disklavier] Re: Disklavier midi delay


>
> >>
> I see, why not the "Silent" piano sample sound ( much better)?
> Shouldn't it respond just like the GM sound?
> <<
>
> Maybe you figured a way around this, but the only way I can get the
awesome
> "Silent" piano sample to play is if I configure the unit to respond via
real
> piano on a particular MIDI channel, and then push the Silent button.

Yeah - me too. By the way - how do you find the quality of your AUX audio
out (for amplification purposes)?  On my unit (a humble DC1S, same 'Silent'
sample as the Pros, I think), it's a 1/8" mini.  I must say it's the only
thing that I was somewhat disappointed in.  The signal-to-noise just isn't
that impressive.  In fact, I routinely bypass the internal tone generator
altogether, prefering instead to use MIDI to my external MU80 and then out
to my amp/speakers.  A much more cleaner sound to my ear.  I usually use the
Silent 30 Meg sample strictly for headphone use on the DKV - pretty much
what it was intended for anyway.

>
> If there's a way to invoke the Silent sample sound via Midi without going
> through the mechanical keys, I'd love to know about it!

Me too!! But, since the 'Silent' tone generator is separate from the DKV
control unit and not controlled by MIDI, I think we're out of luck.  Too bad
the sample isn't part of the base unit, but hey, maybe one day - nothing a
small upgrade couldn't fix.

>
>
> >>
> DC7 Pro has no midi thru.
> <<
>
> Oh, I was probably misremembering.  At the time I was probably using the
> THRU on a different box, and had the Yamaha at the end of the chain or
> something.
>
> >>
> I think so, for example, I'm playing a Roland 2080 module el. pno sound
> in silent mode: laggy...., and when I play with silent mode off, what
> comes up on the edit screen is late and notes are shorter. I've tested
> my other controllers ( Pc-88, Jv-80) w/ same midi cables and modules;
> no problem. Playing a simple trill gives it away since it plays back
> staccato in many cases. Not the way it sounded when i played it or
> pretty impossible for that matter.
> <<

This is strange.  You said you're using a Music Quest 8x8.  I assume you
route the DKV OUT to the patchbay?  How about if you run it direct to your
2080.  Still get the lag??  I guess since you don't have the problem with
your other controllers, it does seem to point to the DKV.

And the staccato - maybe the DKV is generating MIDI assuming it will be
played back on a DKV and therefore adjusting the MIDI timing to make it
"sound good"?.  This has to be the case.  Your sequencer confirms this.
Maybe the DKV isn't such a great controller after all.  But hey, first and
foremost it's not supposed to be, right?

Mark W. / Yamaha / Anyone - any further comments on this aspect??

>
> Yeah, that sounds pretty annoying!  Maybe Mark's idea of using the HOST
port
> will yield you better results, though I haven't tried that myself.  In
fact,
> it sounds like you have the same problem as I: using the TO HOST isn't
> really feasible, because we both need several MIDI OUT ports from the
> computer (more than 2), and I don't think the Yamaha's TO HOST port will
do
> that for us.

You could connect a serial cable from your computer to the Yamaha TO HOST,
and use another computer interface (USB, other MIDI) to connect to other
MIDI stuff.  You would need appropriate drivers for each of course, but
Cakewalk and Cubase both support multi devices, so managing devices on
mutltiple ports combined with TO HOST is possible.

Although the DKV does not have a THRU port, you can configure the OUT port
as a THRU to effectively give you another 16 MIDI channels.  32 channels on
two ports in total - 16 for internal use, 16 for external use.  You need to
use the TO HOST to do this.

Well, enough techno-speak - time to go make some music.

>>>
Yeah - me too. By the way - how do you find the quality of your AUX audio
out (for amplification purposes)?  On my unit (a humble DC1S, same 'Silent'
sample as the Pros, I think), it's a 1/8" mini.  I must say it's the only
thing that I was somewhat disappointed in.  The signal-to-noise just isn't
that impressive.  In fact, I routinely bypass the internal tone generator
altogether, prefering instead to use MIDI to my external MU80 and then out
to my amp/speakers.  A much more cleaner sound to my ear.  I usually use the
Silent 30 Meg sample strictly for headphone use on the DKV - pretty much
what it was intended for anyway.
<<<

Yeah, the 1/8" connector is what you get on the DC3PRO also.  I agree that
having the full stereo signal from the DKV come from a 1/8" connector is a
sad shortcut, considering how advanced all other aspects of the Disklavier
are.  My ears aren't well-trained enough to say with certainty that much
more noise is introduced as a result, though intuition would seem to imply
that.  Even so, the "Silent" piano sample is so amazing I use it for more
than just the headphones.  I'm still debating whether it's worth it to try
to mike the piano properly to get good recordings, or whether I should just
go with the sample.  I've been using the sample so far, and about half the
people who hear the recordings are fooled--they think I actually miked the
piano.

Generally, I find that the sounds on my Korg & Kurzweil are richer and more
interesting than the ones on the Yamaha, so I pretty much only use the
Silent piano from the Yamaha.



				Dave