Kevin, will the software run on Macintosh computers or just PC's? A search and catalog
function would be very nice.
Thanks,
Joan
--- In disklavier@yahoogroups.com, Kevin Goroway <kgoroway@...> wrote:
>
> Well, one might argue that it's much worse, since it doesn't support most of what the
PDA does.
>
> It's what it can do (in the near future) that the PDA can't, though, that makes it
interesting.
> 1) search for songs and albums. You know you've got "chopsticks" saved on there
somewhere, but you've completely forgotten where. Type in chopsticks, and there it
is...Click on it to play.
> 2) Ability to print out a catalog of what you've got stored on your DKV. Have a large
library on there? Want to present a list of what's available to some visitors? Hand them
the printout.
>
> The list can go on and on...It's also MUCH faster than the PDA, and has a whole lot more
screen space to display album/song titles...though (in my case) it requires going to a
different room, since I'm not doing this on a laptop. :-(
>
> There's also the following possibility, which I haven't investigated yet.
>
> Let's say you have a large MIDI library on your computer, but you haven't moved it to
your DKV (for whatever reason). You also don't have a MIDI connection between your
computer and your DKV. I think I can let you point the software are a folder filled with
MIDI files on the computer, and have the DKV play them. Here's how I imagine it would
work.
> a) computer copies file to the piano's from/to pc folder
> b) computer forces DKV to "refresh" it's from/to pc folder
> c) computer tells DKV to start playing that file
> d) when song is finished, computer removes file from piano's from/to pc folder
> e) lather/rinse/repeat
>
> -Kevin
>
> ----- Original Message ----
> From: jheitzeb1 <jheitzeb1@...>
> To: disklavier@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Thursday, November 8, 2007 11:04:57 AM
> Subject: [disklavier] Re: Alternative to tablet and PDA for MKIV
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> What makes your program any different than using the pda with your MKIV?
>
>
>
> Thanks,
>
> Joan
>
>
>
> --- In disklavier@yahoogro ups.com, Kevin Goroway <kgoroway@ .> wrote:
>
> >
>
> > Roberto,
>
> >
>
> > I plan to continue to update the group on my progress (until I'm told to cut it out :-) ).
>
> >
>
> > I did have a breakthrough last night. I found out why I couldn't select songs to play. I
>
> was sending the piano the song_id and the album_id (which seemed to make perfect
>
> sense), but the piano wants the album_id and the song sequence number, so, for
example,
>
> "play the third song from album 1024"
>
> >
>
> > I've got it all working now so I can peruse the pianosoft and the user sections as a
tree-
>
> view, select the song I want to hear, and press play. It's actually quite fun. The piano
>
> does have a natural behavior that is a bit counter-intuitive. ..Once you play a song, the
>
> piano will continue to play the next song on the album when that one is finished, and it
>
> will keep on going...No big deal, really.
>
> >
>
> > The software needs some more things. The ability to search with wildcards, support
for
>
> the other "folders" (usb, floppy, etc), the ability to export the database, and ability to
print
>
> a report on the database. Ultimately, I'd REALLY love for it to be able to update the
>
> database (just the simple notion of correcting spelling/case/ titles would be great!). I
think
>
> this is also trivial though. There's really nothing on the list that is difficult at all....it's all
>
> just time.
>
> >
>
> > That being said, I'd love to release this even as is so people can start playing with
it...but
>
> how many of you are even interested? It also has absolutely no error checking in it at
all,
>
> currently.
>
> >
>
> > -Kevin
>
> >
>
> > ----- Original Message ----
>
> > From: ipermedia <r.fasciani@ ...>
>
> > To: disklavier@yahoogro ups.com
>
> > Sent: Wednesday, November 7, 2007 8:15:53 AM
>
> > Subject: [disklavier] Re: Alternative to tablet and PDA for MKIV
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > Hi Kevin,
>
> >
>
> > please let me know about your progress in this develop, I hope to
>
> >
>
> > contribute as soon as mu DKV will work again.
>
> >
>
> > Thanks
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > Roberto
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > --- In disklavier@yahoogro ups.com, Kevin Goroway <kgoroway@ .> wrote:
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > > Matt, I'm going to reply to this directly since it's probably
>
> >
>
> > outside the scope of this group...
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > > But here's an update for anyone following along.
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > > I got my linux installation working, and was able to sniff the
>
> >
>
> > traffic. I have a good capture now, and I can try to find out why I
>
> >
>
> > am unable to do some of the things I want to do.
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > > I did notice something very interesting that I hadn't seen mentioned
>
> >
>
> > before. It turns out that the tablet interface interacts with the
>
> >
>
> > piano differently from the PDA. I hadn't expected this at all, but
>
> >
>
> > instead of using XML to request album information, the tablet instead
>
> >
>
> > uses HTTP to access a php page on the server. I'm surprised they
>
> >
>
> > bothered to have two ways to query the same information. Since it's
>
> >
>
> > noise in my captures at the moment, I plan to turn off the tablet and
>
> >
>
> > concentrate on the PDA. I hope to revisit the tablet interface to see
>
> >
>
> > if there is anything more interesting there.
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > > -Kevin
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > > ----- Original Message ----
>
> >
>
> > > From: Matthew Teeter <mrmuk7@>
>
> >
>
> > > To: disklavier@yahoogro ups.com
>
> >
>
> > > Sent: Tuesday, November 6, 2007 9:07:27 PM
>
> >
>
> > > Subject: Re: [disklavier] Re: Alternative to tablet and PDA for MKIV
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > > Hi Kevin,
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > > When you say you've been unable to get our software to work, do you
>
> >
>
> > mean specifically the command that switches albums/songs fails, or no
>
> >
>
> > commands work?
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > > We tested the software with firmware 2.0
>
> >
>
> > > and it appeared to work. Perhaps you are using the 2.1 firmware?
>
> >
>
> > Does the connection on port 3191 connect successfully?
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > > The PRC and TRC used to send an identifier along with their messages
>
> >
>
> > to the piano. Our software did not supply an identifier, with no ill
>
> >
>
> > effects. But that is probably why it is prompting you to upgrade :-).
>
> >
>
> > Cute.
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > > You shouldnt have to install Linux just to sniff wireless traffic.
>
> >
>
> > I used Ethereal on Windows and it worked great.
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > > Matthew
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > > On 11/6/07, Kevin Goroway
>
> >
>
> > > <kgoroway@yahoo. com> wrote:
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > > Update on my progress.
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > > All of the database stuff that I've tried has been pretty simple, so
>
> >
>
> > the ability to fetch albums and songs is pretty much complete.
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > > I ran into quite a bit of difficulty once I tried controlling the
>
> >
>
> > piano from my java app though (this uses a separate connection). I
>
> >
>
> > can make it do a lot of the simple things (play, stop, etc), but I
>
> >
>
> > can't select a different song/album. It seems that the research paper
>
> >
>
> > and project are either out of date (I've been unable to make the
>
> >
>
> > project itself work), or I'm just doing something wrong. What's there
>
> >
>
> > already though works well. The UI and Socket are on separate threads,
>
> >
>
> > and there is a thread that heartbeats "<active/>"
>
> >
>
> > > with the piano every 3 seconds.
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > > I did notice that the piano is sending me XML that indicates that I
>
> >
>
> > should pop up a message box informing the user that the software is
>
> >
>
> > out of date running version "too old to tell", and that they should
>
> >
>
> > update to
>
> >
>
> > > 2.0. :-) That makes me wonder how much of the protocol has changed.
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > > So, I've ended up having to install linux so I can get a wireless
>
> >
>
> > card into "monitor" mode so that I can sniff the traffic. I'll do
>
> >
>
> > that tonight to try to solve the simplest of cases (waking up from
>
> >
>
> > standby, and selecting an album/song).
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > > -Kevin
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > > ----- Original Message ----
>
> >
>
> > > From: Kevin Goroway <
>
> >
>
> > > kgoroway@yahoo. com>
>
> >
>
> > > To: disklavier@yahoogro ups.com
>
> >
>
> > > Sent: Friday, November 2, 2007 8:07:13 AM
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > > Subject: Re: [disklavier] Re:
>
> >
>
> > > Alternative to tablet and PDA for MKIV
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > > Matt, and Chris,
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > > Thanks so much for joining our conversation! The background is very
>
> >
>
> > interesting.
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > > Matt, I think you've done a wonderful job under the circumstances,
>
> >
>
> > and it's opened up a world of possibilities.
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > > I'm wrapping up a pure java implementation that doesn't try to mimic
>
> >
>
> > the PRC at all. Instead it's basically a song and album browser (with
>
> >
>
> > search capabilities) and the ability to play them once you find them.
>
> >
>
> > I'm also planning to include the ability to dump your songs and
>
> >
>
> > albums to a CSV file so you can move them wherever you'd like (excel,
>
> >
>
> > access, whatever), and a rudimentary reporting view so that you can at
>
> >
>
> > least get a hardcopy of what you have on your
>
> >
>
> > > Disklavier.
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > > Like Matt, I program for a living (well, mostly manage now), and
>
> >
>
> > with 3 kids at home I don't get much time to write code when I get
>
> >
>
> > there...besides, I also want to actually play piano! :-) So, it may
>
> >
>
> > take a little while to actually wrap this up, but it's already got
>
> >
>
> > some real functionality. I plan to release it as source so that
>
> >
>
> > others can continue it, and hopefully flesh it out to be more of a
>
> >
>
> > tablet/pda replacement.
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > > Thanks again for joining us, and any insight you can provide would
>
> >
>
> > be most helpful!
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > > -Kevin
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > > ----- Original Message ----
>
> >
>
> > > From: mrmuk7 <mrmuk7@gmail. com>
>
> >
>
> > > To: disklavier@yahoogro
>
> >
>
> > > ups.com
>
> >
>
> > > Sent: Thursday, November 1, 2007 10:40:56 PM
>
> >
>
> > > Subject: [disklavier] Re: Alternative to tablet and PDA for MKIV
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > > Hello all,
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > > I'm certainly surprised and pleased to see such enthusiasm regarding
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > > our software controller for the Disklavier. I never expected anyone
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > > to actually scrutinize those development notes I made while working on
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > > the project :-)
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > > As Chris mentioned, we choose Flash initially because we suspected the
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > > original software used Flash due to its transparency effects and
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > > animations. It also seemed like a good choice because it had a built
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > > in class called XMLSocket which would conveniently send XML on ports >
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > > 1024, just like the original software. It is too bad we never got
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > > access to some of Yamaha's UI Elements; with those in place, the
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > > software would have a much more familiar feel to less technical users.
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > > In retrospect, I do agree that the overall architecture of the
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > > software is somewhat of a hack due to the java backend running in a
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > > separate process. Note that this whole thing was thrown together in
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > > about 4 months with only one person working on it, and no help from
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > > Yamaha, so I had little time to evaluate and implement a more elegant
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > > solution.
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > > We had already invested a large amount of time in Flash when I
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > > realized I needed a direct database connection. I couldn't find any
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > > free Flash plugins/source that could send SQL statements
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > > synchronously. A few existed, but they cost money, and we wanted the
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > > software to be completely free and redistributable. To get around
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > > this problem, I implemented the Java backend, which of course takes
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > > XML from the Flash app, restructures it into a query, and then sends
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > > the results back to the Flash app asynchronously.
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > > If members here are interested in rearchitecting the program, I would
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > > be wary of Flash. It is not what I would consider an elegant or
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > > powerful language. Even the simplest tasks took hours to accomplish,
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > > and in the version I was using (Flash 8), there were very annoying
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > > bugs. For example, in certain cases, the program compilation is
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > > actually affected by where you place comments in the code!
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > > Ridiculous, I know. That's not to say that if you didn't use Flash,
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > > you couldn't make a pretty interface. There are a lot of great
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > > alternatives now that look as good, if not better, than Flash...
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > > including things you can do with WPF 3.0 and Silverlight (though I
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > > haven't worked with them first-hand myself).
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > > When we were asking Yamaha if we could publish the paper disclosing
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > > details of their software, they mentioned that they might incorporate
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > > additional security precautions in future versions. I don't know if
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > > that is a good or bad thing, but I certainly hope they keep the
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > > protocol open and easy for third party devs to access. Plus, judging
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > > by their current history of software releases, this shouldn't happen
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > > any time soon.
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > > Regardless of Yamaha's position, a community of Disklavier users
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > > enthusiastic about improving the capabilities of their instrument will
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > > only serve to promote Yamaha's product. I'll be happy to stop by here
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > > every so often and provide any insight I can. I do work full time now
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > > doing software development, so when I come home at the end of the day,
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > > writing software is usually quite low on my activity list; but I still
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > > live near the University and will be happy to support any development
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > > efforts that commence (testing, troubleshooting, different firmwares,
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > > etc).
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > > I can help you get the software working if you would be so kind as to
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > > post details such as: firmware version, PostgreSQL JDBC driver
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > > version, java version, exact error messages, and the like. I know of
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > > at least 3 people around the world that have got it working
>
> >
>
> > successfully.
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > > Thanks for your interest!
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
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> > >
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> >
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> > >
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> >
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> > >
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> >
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> > >
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> >
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> > >
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> >
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> > >
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> > >
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> >
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> > >
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > > ____________ _________ _________ _________ _________ __
>
> >
>
> > > Do You Yahoo!?
>
> >
>
> > > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > > http://mail. yahoo.com
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
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> > >
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> >
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> > >
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> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > > ____________ _________ _________ _________ _________ __
>
> >
>
> > > Do You Yahoo!?
>
> >
>
> > > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > > http://mail. yahoo.com
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > >
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> > >
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> >
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> > >
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> >
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> > >
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> >
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> > >
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> >
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> > >
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> >
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> > >
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> >
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> > >
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> >
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> > >
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> >
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> > >
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> >
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> > >
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> >
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> > >
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> >
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> > >
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> >
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> >
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> >
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> > >
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> >
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> > >
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> >
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> > >
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> >
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> > >
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> >
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> >
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> > >
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> >
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> >
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> > >
>
> >
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> > >
>
> >
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> > >
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > > <!--
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > > #ygrp-mkp{
>
> >
>
> > > border:1px solid #d8d8d8;font- family:Arial; margin:14px
>
> >
>
> > 0px;padding: 0px 14px;}
>
> >
>
> > > #ygrp-mkp hr{
>
> >
>
> > > border:1px solid #d8d8d8;}
>
> >
>
> > > #ygrp-mkp #hd{
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > color:#628c2a; font-size: 85%;font- weight:bold; line-height: 122%;margin: 10px
>
> >
>
> > 0px;}
>
> >
>
> > > #ygrp-mkp #ads{
>
> >
>
> > > margin-bottom: 10px;}
>
> >
>
> > > #ygrp-mkp .ad{
>
> >
>
> > > padding:0 0;}
>
> >
>
> > > #ygrp-mkp .ad a{
>
> >
>
> > > color:#0000ff; text-decoration: none;}
>
> >
>
> > > -->
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > > <!--
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > > #ygrp-sponsor #ygrp-lc{
>
> >
>
> > > font-family: Arial;}
>
> >
>
> > > #ygrp-sponsor #ygrp-lc #hd{
>
> >
>
> > > margin:10px 0px;font-weight: bold;font- size:78%; line-height: 122%;}
>
> >
>
> > > #ygrp-sponsor #ygrp-lc .ad{
>
> >
>
> > > margin-bottom: 10px;padding: 0 0;}
>
> >
>
> > > -->
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > > <!--
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > > #ygrp-mlmsg {font-size:13px; font-family: arial, helvetica, clean,
>
> >
>
> > sans-serif;}
>
> >
>
> > > #ygrp-mlmsg table {font-size:inherit; font:100% ;}
>
> >
>
> > > #ygrp-mlmsg select, input, textarea {font:99% arial, helvetica,
>
> >
>
> > clean, sans-serif;}
>
> >
>
> > > #ygrp-mlmsg pre, code {font:115% monospace;}
>
> >
>
> > > #ygrp-mlmsg * {line-height: 1.22em;}
>
> >
>
> > > #ygrp-text{
>
> >
>
> > > font-family: Georgia;
>
> >
>
> > > }
>
> >
>
> > > #ygrp-text p{
>
> >
>
> > > margin:0 0 1em 0;}
>
> >
>
> > > #ygrp-tpmsgs{
>
> >
>
> > > font-family: Arial;
>
> >
>
> > > clear:both;}
>
> >
>
> > > #ygrp-vitnav{
>
> >
>
> > > padding-top: 10px;font- family:Verdana; font-size: 77%;margin: 0;}
>
> >
>
> > > #ygrp-vitnav a{
>
> >
>
> > > padding:0 1px;}
>
> >
>
> > > #ygrp-actbar{
>
> >
>
> > > clear:both;margin: 25px
>
> >
>
> > 0;white-space: nowrap;color: #666;text- align:right; }
>
> >
>
> > > #ygrp-actbar .left{
>
> >
>
> > > float:left;white- space:nowrap; }
>
> >
>
> > > .bld{font-weight: bold;}
>
> >
>
> > > #ygrp-grft{
>
> >
>
> > > font-family: Verdana;font- size:77%; padding:15px 0;}
>
> >
>
> > > #ygrp-ft{
>
> >
>
> > > font-family: verdana;font- size:77%; border-top: 1px solid #666;
>
> >
>
> > > padding:5px 0;
>
> >
>
> > > }
>
> >
>
> > > #ygrp-mlmsg #logo{
>
> >
>
> > > padding-bottom: 10px;}
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > > #ygrp-vital{
>
> >
>
> > > background-color: #e0ecee;margin- bottom:20px; padding:2px 0 8px 8px;}
>
> >
>
> > > #ygrp-vital #vithd{
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > font-size:77% ;font-family: Verdana;font- weight:bold; color:#333; text-transform:
>
> uppercase; }
>
> >
>
> > > #ygrp-vital ul{
>
> >
>
> > > padding:0;margin: 2px 0;}
>
> >
>
> > > #ygrp-vital ul li{
>
> >
>
> > > list-style-type: none;clear: both;border: 1px solid #e0ecee;
>
> >
>
> > > }
>
> >
>
> > > #ygrp-vital ul li .ct{
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > font-weight: bold;color: #ff7900;float: right;width: 2em;text- align:right; padding-
right:
>
> .5em;}
>
> >
>
> > > #ygrp-vital ul li .cat{
>
> >
>
> > > font-weight: bold;}
>
> >
>
> > > #ygrp-vital a{
>
> >
>
> > > text-decoration: none;}
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > > #ygrp-vital a:hover{
>
> >
>
> > > text-decoration: underline; }
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > > #ygrp-sponsor #hd{
>
> >
>
> > > color:#999;font- size:77%; }
>
> >
>
> > > #ygrp-sponsor #ov{
>
> >
>
> > > padding:6px 13px;background- color:#e0ecee; margin-bottom: 20px;}
>
> >
>
> > > #ygrp-sponsor #ov ul{
>
> >
>
> > > padding:0 0 0 8px;margin:0; }
>
> >
>
> > > #ygrp-sponsor #ov li{
>
> >
>
> > > list-style-type: square;padding: 6px 0;font-size: 77%;}
>
> >
>
> > > #ygrp-sponsor #ov li a{
>
> >
>
> > > text-decoration: none;font- size:130% ;}
>
> >
>
> > > #ygrp-sponsor #nc{
>
> >
>
> > > background-color: #eee;margin- bottom:20px; padding:0 8px;}
>
> >
>
> > > #ygrp-sponsor .ad{
>
> >
>
> > > padding:8px 0;}
>
> >
>
> > > #ygrp-sponsor .ad #hd1{
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > font-family: Arial;font- weight:bold; color:#628c2a; font-size: 100%;line- height:
122% ;}
>
> >
>
> > > #ygrp-sponsor .ad a{
>
> >
>
> > > text-decoration: none;}
>
> >
>
> > > #ygrp-sponsor .ad a:hover{
>
> >
>
> > > text-decoration: underline; }
>
> >
>
> > > #ygrp-sponsor .ad p{
>
> >
>
> > > margin:0;}
>
> >
>
> > > o{font-size: 0;}
>
> >
>
> > > .MsoNormal{
>
> >
>
> > > margin:0 0 0 0;}
>
> >
>
> > > #ygrp-text tt{
>
> >
>
> > > font-size:120% ;}
>
> >
>
> > > blockquote{margin: 0 0 0 4px;}
>
> >
>
> > > .replbq{margin: 4;}
>
> >
>
> > > -->
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > > ____________ _________ _________ _________ _________ __
>
> >
>
> > > Do You Yahoo!?
>
> >
>
> > > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
>
> >
>
> > > http://mail. yahoo.com
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > <!--
>
> >
>
> > #ygrp-mkp{
>
> > border:1px solid #d8d8d8;font- family:Arial; margin:14px 0px;padding: 0px 14px;}
>
> > #ygrp-mkp hr{
>
> > border:1px solid #d8d8d8;}
>
> > #ygrp-mkp #hd{
>
> > color:#628c2a; font-size: 85%;font- weight:bold; line-height: 122%;margin: 10px
0px;}
>
> > #ygrp-mkp #ads{
>
> > margin-bottom: 10px;}
>
> > #ygrp-mkp .ad{
>
> > padding:0 0;}
>
> > #ygrp-mkp .ad a{
>
> > color:#0000ff; text-decoration: none;}
>
> > -->
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > <!--
>
> >
>
> > #ygrp-sponsor #ygrp-lc{
>
> > font-family: Arial;}
>
> > #ygrp-sponsor #ygrp-lc #hd{
>
> > margin:10px 0px;font-weight: bold;font- size:78%; line-height: 122%;}
>
> > #ygrp-sponsor #ygrp-lc .ad{
>
> > margin-bottom: 10px;padding: 0 0;}
>
> > -->
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > <!--
>
> >
>
> > #ygrp-mlmsg {font-size:13px; font-family: arial, helvetica, clean, sans-serif;}
>
> > #ygrp-mlmsg table {font-size:inherit; font:100% ;}
>
> > #ygrp-mlmsg select, input, textarea {font:99% arial, helvetica, clean, sans-serif;}
>
> > #ygrp-mlmsg pre, code {font:115% monospace;}
>
> > #ygrp-mlmsg * {line-height: 1.22em;}
>
> > #ygrp-text{
>
> > font-family: Georgia;
>
> > }
>
> > #ygrp-text p{
>
> > margin:0 0 1em 0;}
>
> > #ygrp-tpmsgs{
>
> > font-family: Arial;
>
> > clear:both;}
>
> > #ygrp-vitnav{
>
> > padding-top: 10px;font- family:Verdana; font-size: 77%;margin: 0;}
>
> > #ygrp-vitnav a{
>
> > padding:0 1px;}
>
> > #ygrp-actbar{
>
> > clear:both;margin: 25px 0;white-space: nowrap;color: #666;text- align:right; }
>
> > #ygrp-actbar .left{
>
> > float:left;white- space:nowrap; }
>
> > .bld{font-weight: bold;}
>
> > #ygrp-grft{
>
> > font-family: Verdana;font- size:77%; padding:15px 0;}
>
> > #ygrp-ft{
>
> > font-family: verdana;font- size:77%; border-top: 1px solid #666;
>
> > padding:5px 0;
>
> > }
>
> > #ygrp-mlmsg #logo{
>
> > padding-bottom: 10px;}
>
> >
>
> > #ygrp-vital{
>
> > background-color: #e0ecee;margin- bottom:20px; padding:2px 0 8px 8px;}
>
> > #ygrp-vital #vithd{
>
> > font-size:77% ;font-family: Verdana;font- weight:bold; color:#333; text-
>
> transform:uppercase ;}
>
> > #ygrp-vital ul{
>
> > padding:0;margin: 2px 0;}
>
> > #ygrp-vital ul li{
>
> > list-style-type: none;clear: both;border: 1px solid #e0ecee;
>
> > }
>
> > #ygrp-vital ul li .ct{
>
> > font-weight: bold;color: #ff7900;float: right;width: 2em;text- align:right; padding-
right: .
>
> 5em;}
>
> > #ygrp-vital ul li .cat{
>
> > font-weight: bold;}
>
> > #ygrp-vital a{
>
> > text-decoration: none;}
>
> >
>
> > #ygrp-vital a:hover{
>
> > text-decoration: underline; }
>
> >
>
> > #ygrp-sponsor #hd{
>
> > color:#999;font- size:77%; }
>
> > #ygrp-sponsor #ov{
>
> > padding:6px 13px;background- color:#e0ecee; margin-bottom: 20px;}
>
> > #ygrp-sponsor #ov ul{
>
> > padding:0 0 0 8px;margin:0; }
>
> > #ygrp-sponsor #ov li{
>
> > list-style-type: square;padding: 6px 0;font-size: 77%;}
>
> > #ygrp-sponsor #ov li a{
>
> > text-decoration: none;font- size:130% ;}
>
> > #ygrp-sponsor #nc{
>
> > background-color: #eee;margin- bottom:20px; padding:0 8px;}
>
> > #ygrp-sponsor .ad{
>
> > padding:8px 0;}
>
> > #ygrp-sponsor .ad #hd1{
>
> > font-family: Arial;font- weight:bold; color:#628c2a; font-size: 100%;line- height:
122% ;}
>
> > #ygrp-sponsor .ad a{
>
> > text-decoration: none;}
>
> > #ygrp-sponsor .ad a:hover{
>
> > text-decoration: underline; }
>
> > #ygrp-sponsor .ad p{
>
> > margin:0;}
>
> > o{font-size: 0;}
>
> > .MsoNormal{
>
> > margin:0 0 0 0;}
>
> > #ygrp-text tt{
>
> > font-size:120% ;}
>
> > blockquote{margin: 0 0 0 4px;}
>
> > .replbq{margin: 4;}
>
> > -->
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > ____________ _________ _________ _________ _________ __
>
> > Do You Yahoo!?
>
> > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
>
> > http://mail. yahoo.com
>
> >
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> <!--
>
> #ygrp-mkp{
> border:1px solid #d8d8d8;font-family:Arial;margin:14px 0px;padding:0px 14px;}
> #ygrp-mkp hr{
> border:1px solid #d8d8d8;}
> #ygrp-mkp #hd{
> color:#628c2a;font-size:85%;font-weight:bold;line-height:122%;margin:10px 0px;}
> #ygrp-mkp #ads{
> margin-bottom:10px;}
> #ygrp-mkp .ad{
> padding:0 0;}
> #ygrp-mkp .ad a{
> color:#0000ff;text-decoration:none;}
> -->
>
>
>
> <!--
>
> #ygrp-sponsor #ygrp-lc{
> font-family:Arial;}
> #ygrp-sponsor #ygrp-lc #hd{
> margin:10px 0px;font-weight:bold;font-size:78%;line-height:122%;}
> #ygrp-sponsor #ygrp-lc .ad{
> margin-bottom:10px;padding:0 0;}
> -->
>
>
>
> <!--
>
> #ygrp-mlmsg {font-size:13px;font-family:arial, helvetica, clean, sans-serif;}
> #ygrp-mlmsg table {font-size:inherit;font:100%;}
> #ygrp-mlmsg select, input, textarea {font:99% arial, helvetica, clean, sans-serif;}
> #ygrp-mlmsg pre, code {font:115% monospace;}
> #ygrp-mlmsg * {line-height:1.22em;}
> #ygrp-text{
> font-family:Georgia;
> }
> #ygrp-text p{
> margin:0 0 1em 0;}
> #ygrp-tpmsgs{
> font-family:Arial;
> clear:both;}
> #ygrp-vitnav{
> padding-top:10px;font-family:Verdana;font-size:77%;margin:0;}
> #ygrp-vitnav a{
> padding:0 1px;}
> #ygrp-actbar{
> clear:both;margin:25px 0;white-space:nowrap;color:#666;text-align:right;}
> #ygrp-actbar .left{
> float:left;white-space:nowrap;}
> .bld{font-weight:bold;}
> #ygrp-grft{
> font-family:Verdana;font-size:77%;padding:15px 0;}
> #ygrp-ft{
> font-family:verdana;font-size:77%;border-top:1px solid #666;
> padding:5px 0;
> }
> #ygrp-mlmsg #logo{
> padding-bottom:10px;}
>
> #ygrp-vital{
> background-color:#e0ecee;margin-bottom:20px;padding:2px 0 8px 8px;}
> #ygrp-vital #vithd{
> font-size:77%;font-family:Verdana;font-weight:bold;color:#333;text-
transform:uppercase;}
> #ygrp-vital ul{
> padding:0;margin:2px 0;}
> #ygrp-vital ul li{
> list-style-type:none;clear:both;border:1px solid #e0ecee;
> }
> #ygrp-vital ul li .ct{
> font-weight:bold;color:#ff7900;float:right;width:2em;text-align:right;padding-right:.
5em;}
> #ygrp-vital ul li .cat{
> font-weight:bold;}
> #ygrp-vital a{
> text-decoration:none;}
>
> #ygrp-vital a:hover{
> text-decoration:underline;}
>
> #ygrp-sponsor #hd{
> color:#999;font-size:77%;}
> #ygrp-sponsor #ov{
> padding:6px 13px;background-color:#e0ecee;margin-bottom:20px;}
> #ygrp-sponsor #ov ul{
> padding:0 0 0 8px;margin:0;}
> #ygrp-sponsor #ov li{
> list-style-type:square;padding:6px 0;font-size:77%;}
> #ygrp-sponsor #ov li a{
> text-decoration:none;font-size:130%;}
> #ygrp-sponsor #nc{
> background-color:#eee;margin-bottom:20px;padding:0 8px;}
> #ygrp-sponsor .ad{
> padding:8px 0;}
> #ygrp-sponsor .ad #hd1{
> font-family:Arial;font-weight:bold;color:#628c2a;font-size:100%;line-height:122%;}
> #ygrp-sponsor .ad a{
> text-decoration:none;}
> #ygrp-sponsor .ad a:hover{
> text-decoration:underline;}
> #ygrp-sponsor .ad p{
> margin:0;}
> o{font-size:0;}
> .MsoNormal{
> margin:0 0 0 0;}
> #ygrp-text tt{
> font-size:120%;}
> blockquote{margin:0 0 0 4px;}
> .replbq{margin:4;}
> -->
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
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Re: Alternative to tablet and PDA for MKIV
2007-11-08 by jheitzeb1