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Appraising DKV

Appraising DKV

2014-05-24 by Skanter123

I went and took another look at 2001 MPX 1Z UI upright I was considering buying. If you remember, last rime I checked it out I was unhappy with the feel of the action, as it seemed ultra light with little resistance or weight to it.

This time I took my tuner/tech. He inspected it carefully, but said there was nothing wrong with the instrument, and not much could be done to change the way it was. I own two other U1s, (one DKV and one non-DKV) and I really feel this piano is inferior in action and in sound. I'm surprised, as it is relatively unused, the DKV functions work fine, but playing the piano is nothing like the other two and just not a good experience. Very disappointing, as I wanted to buy this for my studio for teaching purposes.

Sam 
www.keyboardcollective.com
(212) 684-3304

Re: [disklavier] Appraising DKV

2014-05-24 by Bill Brandom

Hi Sam,

I am surprised too that your technician could not identify why the action on this piano is so much different than the two you have.

Did he say that the touch weight, key dip and aftertouch was the same on all three pianos?

If they are the same, what feels different on this piano?

Bill

Sent from my iPad
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> On May 23, 2014, at 8:58 PM, "Skanter123 skanter123@gmail.com [disklavier]" <disklavier@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
> 
> I went and took another look at 2001 MPX 1Z UI upright I was considering buying. If you remember, last rime I checked it out I was unhappy with the feel of the action, as it seemed ultra light with little resistance or weight to it.
> 
> This time I took my tuner/tech. He inspected it carefully, but said there was nothing wrong with the instrument, and not much could be done to change the way it was. I own two other U1s, (one DKV and one non-DKV) and I really feel this piano is inferior in action and in sound. I'm surprised, as it is relatively unused, the DKV functions work fine, but playing the piano is nothing like the other two and just not a good experience. Very disappointing, as I wanted to buy this for my studio for teaching purposes.
> 
> Sam 
> www.keyboardcollective.com
> (212) 684-3304
> 
>

Re: [disklavier] Appraising DKV

2014-05-24 by Skanter123

He wasnt sure, but he checked key dip (even made it a bit deeper to no avail), 
mentioned aftertouch was OK. He said there are some small pieces of velvet in the mechanism that was softer than on some other U1s that had something to do with it, I didn't quite understand this.

In any case, he said there was nothing he could do and he's an experienced tech.
He said it just had an unusually light touch.

Sam 
www.keyboardcollective.com
(212) 684-3304
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> On May 24, 2014, at 1:02 AM, "Bill Brandom bill.brandom03@gmail.com [disklavier]" <disklavier@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
> 
> Hi Sam,
> 
> I am surprised too that your technician could not identify why the action on this piano is so much different than the two you have.
> 
> Did he say that the touch weight, key dip and aftertouch was the same on all three pianos?
> 
> If they are the same, what feels different on this piano?
> 
> Bill
> 
> Sent from my iPad
> 
>> On May 23, 2014, at 8:58 PM, "Skanter123 skanter123@... [disklavier]" <disklavier@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
>> 
>>  
>> I went and took another look at 2001 MPX 1Z UI upright I was considering buying. If you remember, last rime I checked it out I was unhappy with the feel of the action, as it seemed ultra light with little resistance or weight to it.
>> 
>> This time I took my tuner/tech. He inspected it carefully, but said there was nothing wrong with the instrument, and not much could be done to change the way it was. I own two other U1s, (one DKV and one non-DKV) and I really feel this piano is inferior in action and in sound. I'm surprised, as it is relatively unused, the DKV functions work fine, but playing the piano is nothing like the other two and just not a good experience. Very disappointing, as I wanted to buy this for my studio for teaching purposes.
>> 
>> Sam 
>> www.keyboardcollective.com
>> (212) 684-3304
>> 
> 
>

Re: [disklavier] Appraising DKV

2014-05-24 by Sam Kanter

Bill, what is touch weight, and how is it adjusted?

Sam
www.keyboardcollective.com
(212) 684-3304

*(Sent from phone - please excuse brevity and typos.)
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> On May 24, 2014, at 1:02 AM, "Bill Brandom bill.brandom03@... [disklavier]" <disklavier@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
> 
> Hi Sam,
> 
> I am surprised too that your technician could not identify why the action on this piano is so much different than the two you have.
> 
> Did he say that the touch weight, key dip and aftertouch was the same on all three pianos?
> 
> If they are the same, what feels different on this piano?
> 
> Bill
> 
> Sent from my iPad
> 
>> On May 23, 2014, at 8:58 PM, "Skanter123 skanter123@gmail.com [disklavier]" <disklavier@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
>> 
>>  
>> I went and took another look at 2001 MPX 1Z UI upright I was considering buying. If you remember, last rime I checked it out I was unhappy with the feel of the action, as it seemed ultra light with little resistance or weight to it.
>> 
>> This time I took my tuner/tech. He inspected it carefully, but said there was nothing wrong with the instrument, and not much could be done to change the way it was. I own two other U1s, (one DKV and one non-DKV) and I really feel this piano is inferior in action and in sound. I'm surprised, as it is relatively unused, the DKV functions work fine, but playing the piano is nothing like the other two and just not a good experience. Very disappointing, as I wanted to buy this for my studio for teaching purposes.
>> 
>> Sam 
>> www.keyboardcollective.com
>> (212) 684-3304
> 
>

Re: [disklavier] Appraising DKV

2014-05-24 by Bill Brandom

Sam,

This is the point I think your technician may have overlooked. Key dip and after touch have very little to do with a light or heavy touch.

Touch DOWN weight is the amount of weight placed about 5mm from the front end of the key to cause the key to go slowly through its stroke. This measurement is taken with the damper pedal down. This measurement basically defines how hard you have to push a key, to get it to go through its stroke. The less weight it takes, the lighter the touch.

An average down weight on a piano is about 2 ozs or 56 grams. A nickle weighs 5 grams, so if you stack 11 nickles on the key,this would equal about 55 grams.

Touch UP weight (which is less, of course than down weight) is the amount of weight on the front of the key for the key to return to its rest position. Touch up weight has more to do with repetition than touch lightness or heavyness.

Comparing down weight from piano to piano gives you a good comparison of the weight issue.

Something else needs to be considered. What we hear can affect how a piano keyboard feels. If we compare two pianos with the same touch down weight, and one piano has a much brighter sound than the other, the brighter sounding piano's touch will feel much lighter...

Regarding the U1s - an action on one piano is not going to be defective, compared to another U1 action. There really is a reason or reasons that one piano "feels" so much different than another.

Bill


Sent from Mailbox
Show quoted textHide quoted text

On Sat, May 24, 2014 at 4:28 PM, Sam Kanter skanter123@gmail.com [disklavier] <disklavier@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

Bill, what is touch weight, and how is it adjusted?

Sam
(212) 684-3304

*(Sent from phone - please excuse brevity and typos.)

On May 24, 2014, at 1:02 AM, "Bill Brandom bill.brandom03@... [disklavier]" <disklavier@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

Hi Sam,

I am surprised too that your technician could not identify why the action on this piano is so much different than the two you have.

Did he say that the touch weight, key dip and aftertouch was the same on all three pianos?

If they are the same, what feels different on this piano?

Bill

Sent from my iPad

On May 23, 2014, at 8:58 PM, "Skanter123 skanter123@... [disklavier]" <disklavier@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

I went and took another look at 2001 MPX 1Z UI upright I was considering buying. If you remember, last rime I checked it out I was unhappy with the feel of the action, as it seemed ultra light with little resistance or weight to it.

This time I took my tuner/tech. He inspected it carefully, but said there was nothing wrong with the instrument, and not much could be done to change the way it was. I own two other U1s, (one DKV and one non-DKV) and I really feel this piano is inferior in action and in sound. I'm surprised, as it is relatively unused, the DKV functions work fine, but playing the piano is nothing like the other two and just not a good experience. Very disappointing, as I wanted to buy this for my studio for teaching purposes.

Sam
www.keyboardcollective.com
(212) 684-3304


Re: [disklavier] Appraising DKV

2014-05-25 by Bill Current Gmail

Hi again Sam,

Touch down weight is affected by flange tightness, weight of the hammers, etc. 

In the factory, touch weight is changed with the size and location of lead weights inserted into the keys. The keys in a piano are levers. So, if a lead weight is placed on the key top side of the lever it will make the touch lighter. If it is placed to the back side of the key, it will increase the down weight.

Bill

 iPhone

On May 24, 2014, at 4:26 PM, "Sam Kanter skanter123@... [disklavier]" <disklavier@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

Bill, what is touch weight, and how is it adjusted?

Sam
www.keyboardcollective.com
(212) 684-3304

*(Sent from phone - please excuse brevity and typos.)
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> On May 24, 2014, at 1:02 AM, "Bill Brandom bill.brandom03@... [disklavier]" <disklavier@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
> 
>  
> Hi Sam,
> 
> I am surprised too that your technician could not identify why the action on this piano is so much different than the two you have.
> 
> Did he say that the touch weight, key dip and aftertouch was the same on all three pianos?
> 
> If they are the same, what feels different on this piano?
> 
> Bill
> 
> Sent from my iPad
> 
>> On May 23, 2014, at 8:58 PM, "Skanter123 skanter123@... [disklavier]" <disklavier@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
>> 
>>  
>> I went and took another look at 2001 MPX 1Z UI upright I was considering buying. If you remember, last rime I checked it out I was unhappy with the feel of the action, as it seemed ultra light with little resistance or weight to it.
>> 
>> This time I took my tuner/tech. He inspected it carefully, but said there was nothing wrong with the instrument, and not much could be done to change the way it was. I own two other U1s, (one DKV and one non-DKV) and I really feel this piano is inferior in action and in sound. I'm surprised, as it is relatively unused, the DKV functions work fine, but playing the piano is nothing like the other two and just not a good experience. Very disappointing, as I wanted to buy this for my studio for teaching purposes.
>> 
>> Sam 
>> www.keyboardcollective.com
>> (212) 684-3304

Re: [disklavier] Appraising DKV

2014-05-25 by Skanter123

Bill, thanks for the explanation. 

If I understand you correctly, the key weight cannot be adjusted (unless weights are put on the back of the keys, which I have done on my non-DKV U1 to make action heavier. I would not do this on a DKV.) 

We weren't comparing all the U1s, but just trying to see if there was a way to adjust this piano so the action was more to my liking. To the best of my tech's knowledge, there was no way to do this. 

The sound of the piano, while not ideal, was a different matter. It was brighter than the other U1s, but that was not as big a problem for me as the action. In general, this piano seemed inferior in every way to the two U1s that I own. The action seemed much too light and unresponsive, and the sound a bit "tinny" compared to the richness of the other pianos. Again, I was surprised that any U1 was so different. I wish there were a way to improve it, I'm open to any ideas...

> Regarding the U1s - an action on one piano is not going to be defective, compared to another U1 action. There really is a reason or reasons that one piano "feels" so much different than another.

But why do you think these differences exist - different parts, different design or manufacturing of U1s during  different years?

Sam 
www.keyboardcollective.com
(212) 684-3304
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> On May 24, 2014, at 7:54 PM, "'Bill Brandom' bill.brandom03@... [disklavier]" <disklavier@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
> 
> Sam,
> 
> 
> This is the point I think your technician may have overlooked. Key dip and after touch have very little to do with a light or heavy touch.
> 
> Touch DOWN weight is the amount of weight placed about 5mm from the front end of the key to cause the key to go slowly through its stroke. This measurement is taken with the damper pedal down. This measurement basically defines how hard you have to push a key, to get it to go through its stroke. The less weight it takes, the lighter the touch.
> 
> An average down weight on a piano is about 2 ozs or 56 grams. A nickle weighs 5 grams, so if you stack 11 nickles on the key,this would equal about 55 grams. 
> 
> Touch UP weight (which is less, of course than down weight) is the amount of weight on the front of the  key for the key to return to its rest position.  Touch up weight has more to do with repetition than touch lightness or heavyness.
> 
> Comparing down weight from piano to piano gives you a good comparison of the weight issue.
> 
> Something else needs to be considered. What we hear can affect how a piano keyboard feels. If we compare two pianos with the same touch down weight, and one piano has a much brighter sound than the other, the brighter sounding piano's touch will feel much lighter...
> 
> Regarding the U1s - an action on one piano is not going to be defective, compared to another U1 action. There really is a reason or reasons that one piano "feels" so much different than another.
> 
> Bill 
> 
> —
> Sent from Mailbox
> 
> 
>> On Sat, May 24, 2014 at 4:28 PM, Sam Kanter skanter123@... [disklavier] <disklavier@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
>>  
>> Bill, what is touch weight, and how is it adjusted?
>> 
>> Sam
>> www.keyboardcollective.com
>> (212) 684-3304
>> 
>> *(Sent from phone - please excuse brevity and typos.)
>> 
>>> On May 24, 2014, at 1:02 AM, "Bill Brandom bill.brandom03@... [disklavier]" <disklavier@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
>>> 
>>>  
>>> Hi Sam,
>>> 
>>> I am surprised too that your technician could not identify why the action on this piano is so much different than the two you have.
>>> 
>>> Did he say that the touch weight, key dip and aftertouch was the same on all three pianos?
>>> 
>>> If they are the same, what feels different on this piano?
>>> 
>>> Bill
>>> 
>>> Sent from my iPad
>>> 
>>>> On May 23, 2014, at 8:58 PM, "Skanter123 skanter123@... [disklavier]" <disklavier@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
>>>> 
>>>>  
>>>> I went and took another look at 2001 MPX 1Z UI upright I was considering buying. If you remember, last rime I checked it out I was unhappy with the feel of the action, as it seemed ultra light with little resistance or weight to it.
>>>> 
>>>> This time I took my tuner/tech. He inspected it carefully, but said there was nothing wrong with the instrument, and not much could be done to change the way it was. I own two other U1s, (one DKV and one non-DKV) and I really feel this piano is inferior in action and in sound. I'm surprised, as it is relatively unused, the DKV functions work fine, but playing the piano is nothing like the other two and just not a good experience. Very disappointing, as I wanted to buy this for my studio for teaching purposes.
>>>> 
>>>> Sam 
>>>> www.keyboardcollective.com
>>>> (212) 684-3304
>>>> 
>>>> 
>> 
> 
>

Re: [disklavier] Appraising DKV

2014-05-25 by Skanter123

> In the factory, touch weight is changed with the size and location of lead weights inserted into the keys. The keys in a piano are levers. So, if a lead weight is placed on the key top side of the lever it will make the touch lighter. If it is placed to the back side of the key, it will increase the down weight.

Bill, thanks again for the explanation.

My 1980 studio U1 felt light, so my tech put weights on the back side of the keys - very nice feel, though my students find it a bit heavy. My 1997 DKV U1 at home has no weights, but the action is very nice. The MPX 1Z felt super-light, with the illusion of a short key dip. My tech showed me the round weights in the keys. Unfortunately, I would never add weights to a DKV as it might gum up the works.

So, if I understand correctly, my tech was correct in telling me that nothing could be done to change the feel of this action?

Sam 
www.keyboardcollective.com
(212) 684-3304
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> On May 24, 2014, at 8:05 PM, "Bill Current Gmail bill.brandom03@... [disklavier]" <disklavier@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
> 
> Hi again Sam,
> 
> Touch down weight is affected by flange tightness, weight of the hammers, etc. 
> 
> In the factory, touch weight is changed with the size and location of lead weights inserted into the keys. The keys in a piano are levers. So, if a lead weight is placed on the key top side of the lever it will make the touch lighter. If it is placed to the back side of the key, it will increase the down weight.
> 
> Bill
> 
>  iPhone
> 
> On May 24, 2014, at 4:26 PM, "Sam Kanter skanter123@... [disklavier]" <disklavier@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
> 
>  
> Bill, what is touch weight, and how is it adjusted?
> 
> Sam
> www.keyboardcollective.com
> (212) 684-3304
> 
> *(Sent from phone - please excuse brevity and typos.)
> 
>> On May 24, 2014, at 1:02 AM, "Bill Brandom bill.brandom03@... [disklavier]" <disklavier@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
>> 
>>  
>> Hi Sam,
>> 
>> I am surprised too that your technician could not identify why the action on this piano is so much different than the two you have.
>> 
>> Did he say that the touch weight, key dip and aftertouch was the same on all three pianos?
>> 
>> If they are the same, what feels different on this piano?
>> 
>> Bill
>> 
>> Sent from my iPad
>> 
>>> On May 23, 2014, at 8:58 PM, "Skanter123 skanter123@... [disklavier]" <disklavier@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
>>> 
>>>  
>>> I went and took another look at 2001 MPX 1Z UI upright I was considering buying. If you remember, last rime I checked it out I was unhappy with the feel of the action, as it seemed ultra light with little resistance or weight to it.
>>> 
>>> This time I took my tuner/tech. He inspected it carefully, but said there was nothing wrong with the instrument, and not much could be done to change the way it was. I own two other U1s, (one DKV and one non-DKV) and I really feel this piano is inferior in action and in sound. I'm surprised, as it is relatively unused, the DKV functions work fine, but playing the piano is nothing like the other two and just not a good experience. Very disappointing, as I wanted to buy this for my studio for teaching purposes.
>>> 
>>> Sam 
>>> www.keyboardcollective.com
>>> (212) 684-3304
> 
>

Re: [disklavier] Appraising DKV

2014-05-25 by Bill Current Gmail

Sam,

Without seeing these three pianos, it is impossible for me to say whether something can be done to make them feel more equal.

Bill

 iPhone

On May 24, 2014, at 6:58 PM, "Skanter123 skanter123@... [disklavier]" <disklavier@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

> In the factory, touch weight is changed with the size and location of lead weights inserted into the keys. The keys in a piano are levers. So, if a lead weight is placed on the key top side of the lever it will make the touch lighter. If it is placed to the back side of the key, it will increase the down weight.

Bill, thanks again for the explanation.

My 1980 studio U1 felt light, so my tech put weights on the back side of the keys - very nice feel, though my students find it a bit heavy. My 1997 DKV U1 at home has no weights, but the action is very nice. The MPX 1Z felt super-light, with the illusion of a short key dip. My tech showed me the round weights in the keys. Unfortunately, I would never add weights to a DKV as it might gum up the works.

So, if I understand correctly, my tech was correct in telling me that nothing could be done to change the feel of this action?

Sam 
www.keyboardcollective.com
(212) 684-3304
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> On May 24, 2014, at 8:05 PM, "Bill Current Gmail bill.brandom03@... [disklavier]" <disklavier@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
> 
>  
> Hi again Sam,
> 
> Touch down weight is affected by flange tightness, weight of the hammers, etc. 
> 
> In the factory, touch weight is changed with the size and location of lead weights inserted into the keys. The keys in a piano are levers. So, if a lead weight is placed on the key top side of the lever it will make the touch lighter. If it is placed to the back side of the key, it will increase the down weight.
> 
> Bill
> 
>  iPhone
> 
> On May 24, 2014, at 4:26 PM, "Sam Kanter skanter123@... [disklavier]" <disklavier@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
> 
>  
> Bill, what is touch weight, and how is it adjusted?
> 
> Sam
> www.keyboardcollective.com
> (212) 684-3304
> 
> *(Sent from phone - please excuse brevity and typos.)
> 
>> On May 24, 2014, at 1:02 AM, "Bill Brandom bill.brandom03@... [disklavier]" <disklavier@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
>> 
>>  
>> Hi Sam,
>> 
>> I am surprised too that your technician could not identify why the action on this piano is so much different than the two you have.
>> 
>> Did he say that the touch weight, key dip and aftertouch was the same on all three pianos?
>> 
>> If they are the same, what feels different on this piano?
>> 
>> Bill
>> 
>> Sent from my iPad
>> 
>>> On May 23, 2014, at 8:58 PM, "Skanter123 skanter123@... [disklavier]" <disklavier@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
>>> 
>>>  
>>> I went and took another look at 2001 MPX 1Z UI upright I was considering buying. If you remember, last rime I checked it out I was unhappy with the feel of the action, as it seemed ultra light with little resistance or weight to it.
>>> 
>>> This time I took my tuner/tech. He inspected it carefully, but said there was nothing wrong with the instrument, and not much could be done to change the way it was. I own two other U1s, (one DKV and one non-DKV) and I really feel this piano is inferior in action and in sound. I'm surprised, as it is relatively unused, the DKV functions work fine, but playing the piano is nothing like the other two and just not a good experience. Very disappointing, as I wanted to buy this for my studio for teaching purposes.
>>> 
>>> Sam 
>>> www.keyboardcollective.com
>>> (212) 684-3304

Re: [disklavier] Appraising DKV

2014-05-25 by Skanter123

> Without seeing these three pianos, it is impossible for me to say whether something can be done to make them feel more equal.


Understood. Don't really want to make them equal, just that I really like two and dislike the third. I'm somewhat convinced that the third cannot be improved. Thanks again...

Sam 
www.keyboardcollective.com
(212) 684-3304
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> On May 24, 2014, at 10:19 PM, "Bill Current Gmail bill.brandom03@... [disklavier]" <disklavier@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
> 
> Sam,
> 
> Without seeing these three pianos, it is impossible for me to say whether something can be done to make them feel more equal.
> 
> Bill
> 
>  iPhone
> 
> On May 24, 2014, at 6:58 PM, "Skanter123 skanter123@... [disklavier]" <disklavier@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
> 
>  
>> In the factory, touch weight is changed with the size and location of lead weights inserted into the keys. The keys in a piano are levers. So, if a lead weight is placed on the key top side of the lever it will make the touch lighter. If it is placed to the back side of the key, it will increase the down weight.
> 
> Bill, thanks again for the explanation.
> 
> My 1980 studio U1 felt light, so my tech put weights on the back side of the keys - very nice feel, though my students find it a bit heavy. My 1997 DKV U1 at home has no weights, but the action is very nice. The MPX 1Z felt super-light, with the illusion of a short key dip. My tech showed me the round weights in the keys. Unfortunately, I would never add weights to a DKV as it might gum up the works.
> 
> So, if I understand correctly, my tech was correct in telling me that nothing could be done to change the feel of this action?
> 
> Sam 
> www.keyboardcollective.com
> (212) 684-3304
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>> On May 24, 2014, at 8:05 PM, "Bill Current Gmail bill.brandom03@... [disklavier]" <disklavier@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
>> 
>>  
>> Hi again Sam,
>> 
>> Touch down weight is affected by flange tightness, weight of the hammers, etc. 
>> 
>> In the factory, touch weight is changed with the size and location of lead weights inserted into the keys. The keys in a piano are levers. So, if a lead weight is placed on the key top side of the lever it will make the touch lighter. If it is placed to the back side of the key, it will increase the down weight.
>> 
>> Bill
>> 
>>  iPhone
>> 
>> On May 24, 2014, at 4:26 PM, "Sam Kanter skanter123@... [disklavier]" <disklavier@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
>> 
>>  
>> Bill, what is touch weight, and how is it adjusted?
>> 
>> Sam
>> www.keyboardcollective.com
>> (212) 684-3304
>> 
>> *(Sent from phone - please excuse brevity and typos.)
>> 
>>> On May 24, 2014, at 1:02 AM, "Bill Brandom bill.brandom03@... [disklavier]" <disklavier@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
>>> 
>>>  
>>> Hi Sam,
>>> 
>>> I am surprised too that your technician could not identify why the action on this piano is so much different than the two you have.
>>> 
>>> Did he say that the touch weight, key dip and aftertouch was the same on all three pianos?
>>> 
>>> If they are the same, what feels different on this piano?
>>> 
>>> Bill
>>> 
>>> Sent from my iPad
>>> 
>>>> On May 23, 2014, at 8:58 PM, "Skanter123 skanter123@... [disklavier]" <disklavier@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
>>>> 
>>>>  
>>>> I went and took another look at 2001 MPX 1Z UI upright I was considering buying. If you remember, last rime I checked it out I was unhappy with the feel of the action, as it seemed ultra light with little resistance or weight to it.
>>>> 
>>>> This time I took my tuner/tech. He inspected it carefully, but said there was nothing wrong with the instrument, and not much could be done to change the way it was. I own two other U1s, (one DKV and one non-DKV) and I really feel this piano is inferior in action and in sound. I'm surprised, as it is relatively unused, the DKV functions work fine, but playing the piano is nothing like the other two and just not a good experience. Very disappointing, as I wanted to buy this for my studio for teaching purposes.
>>>> 
>>>> Sam 
>>>> www.keyboardcollective.com
>>>> (212) 684-3304
>>>> 
>> 
> 
>

Re: [disklavier] Appraising DKV

2014-05-25 by Carol Beigel

Sam, piano technicians spend their entire careers studying touch weight. Not only is there up-weight and down-weight to consider, there is also friction.  One of the really nice things about a DKV is to watch the ppp numbers to show you where the friction is.  Without going into this amazing science, the problem seems to be that you like an extraordinary heavy touch.  My suggestions would be:

1) check the damper timing.  The dampers may be lifting too late.  Make the dampers pull back sooner so the weight of the damper springs can be felt almost immediately. 

2) have the black keys raised up a little bit

3) use half cut paper balance rail punchings to make a fake-out adjustment of the capstan to the wippen ratio

Carol Beigel
Show quoted textHide quoted text
On May 24, 2014, at 10:19 PM, Bill Current Gmail bill.brandom03@... [disklavier] <disklavier@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

> 
> 
> Sam,
> 
> Without seeing these three pianos, it is impossible for me to say whether something can be done to make them feel more equal.
> 
> Bill
> 
>  iPhone
> 
> On May 24, 2014, at 6:58 PM, "Skanter123 skanter123@... [disklavier]" <disklavier@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
> 
> 
>> In the factory, touch weight is changed with the size and location of lead weights inserted into the keys. The keys in a piano are levers. So, if a lead weight is placed on the key top side of the lever it will make the touch lighter. If it is placed to the back side of the key, it will increase the down weight.
> 
> Bill, thanks again for the explanation.
> 
> My 1980 studio U1 felt light, so my tech put weights on the back side of the keys - very nice feel, though my students find it a bit heavy. My 1997 DKV U1 at home has no weights, but the action is very nice. The MPX 1Z felt super-light, with the illusion of a short key dip. My tech showed me the round weights in the keys. Unfortunately, I would never add weights to a DKV as it might gum up the works.
> 
> So, if I understand correctly, my tech was correct in telling me that nothing could be done to change the feel of this action?
> 
> Sam 
> www.keyboardcollective.com
> (212) 684-3304
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> On May 24, 2014, at 8:05 PM, "Bill Current Gmail bill.brandom03@... [disklavier]" <disklavier@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
> 
>>  
>> 
>> Hi again Sam,
>> 
>> Touch down weight is affected by flange tightness, weight of the hammers, etc. 
>> 
>> In the factory, touch weight is changed with the size and location of lead weights inserted into the keys. The keys in a piano are levers. So, if a lead weight is placed on the key top side of the lever it will make the touch lighter. If it is placed to the back side of the key, it will increase the down weight.
>> 
>> Bill
>> 
>>  iPhone
>> 
>> On May 24, 2014, at 4:26 PM, "Sam Kanter skanter123@... [disklavier]" <disklavier@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
>> 
>>  
>> 
>> Bill, what is touch weight, and how is it adjusted?
>> 
>> Sam
>> www.keyboardcollective.com
>> (212) 684-3304
>> 
>> *(Sent from phone - please excuse brevity and typos.)
>> 
>> On May 24, 2014, at 1:02 AM, "Bill Brandom bill.brandom03@... [disklavier]" <disklavier@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
>> 
>>>  
>>> 
>>> Hi Sam,
>>> 
>>> I am surprised too that your technician could not identify why the action on this piano is so much different than the two you have.
>>> 
>>> Did he say that the touch weight, key dip and aftertouch was the same on all three pianos?
>>> 
>>> If they are the same, what feels different on this piano?
>>> 
>>> Bill
>>> 
>>> Sent from my iPad
>>> 
>>> On May 23, 2014, at 8:58 PM, "Skanter123 skanter123@... [disklavier]" <disklavier@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
>>> 
>>>>  
>>>> I went and took another look at 2001 MPX 1Z UI upright I was considering buying. If you remember, last rime I checked it out I was unhappy with the feel of the action, as it seemed ultra light with little resistance or weight to it.
>>>> 
>>>> This time I took my tuner/tech. He inspected it carefully, but said there was nothing wrong with the instrument, and not much could be done to change the way it was. I own two other U1s, (one DKV and one non-DKV) and I really feel this piano is inferior in action and in sound. I'm surprised, as it is relatively unused, the DKV functions work fine, but playing the piano is nothing like the other two and just not a good experience. Very disappointing, as I wanted to buy this for my studio for teaching purposes.
>>>> 
>>>> Sam 
>>>> www.keyboardcollective.com
>>>> (212) 684-3304
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>> 
>> 
>> 
> 
> 
> 
>

Re: [disklavier] Appraising DKV

2014-05-25 by Skanter123

Thanks Carol, I will forward your comments to my tech.

I don't think I like an extraordinarily heavy action - just not a very light one. Without enough resistance, it's difficult to control dynamics. The MPX100II I have at home has no extra weights and feels fine. The MPX 1Z i've referred to has the feel of a cheap spinet. There is nothing to "dig" into when playing. Perhaps it can be adjusted, but I have my doubts...

Sam 
www.keyboardcollective.com
(212) 684-3304
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> On May 24, 2014, at 10:41 PM, "Carol Beigel carol@... [disklavier]" <disklavier@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
> 
> Sam, piano technicians spend their entire careers studying touch weight. Not only is there up-weight and down-weight to consider, there is also friction.  One of the really nice things about a DKV is to watch the ppp numbers to show you where the friction is.  Without going into this amazing science, the problem seems to be that you like an extraordinary heavy touch.  My suggestions would be:
> 
> 
> 1) check the damper timing.  The dampers may be lifting too late.  Make the dampers pull back sooner so the weight of the damper springs can be felt almost immediately. 
> 
> 2) have the black keys raised up a little bit
> 
> 3) use half cut paper balance rail punchings to make a fake-out adjustment of the capstan to the wippen ratio
> 
> Carol Beigel
> 
> 
> 
>> On May 24, 2014, at 10:19 PM, Bill Current Gmail bill.brandom03@... [disklavier] <disklavier@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> Sam,
>> 
>> Without seeing these three pianos, it is impossible for me to say whether something can be done to make them feel more equal.
>> 
>> Bill
>> 
>>  iPhone
>> 
>>> On May 24, 2014, at 6:58 PM, "Skanter123 skanter123@... [disklavier]" <disklavier@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
>>> 
>>> 
>> 
>>> In the factory, touch weight is changed with the size and location of lead weights inserted into the keys. The keys in a piano are levers. So, if a lead weight is placed on the key top side of the lever it will make the touch lighter. If it is placed to the back side of the key, it will increase the down weight.
>> 
>> Bill, thanks again for the explanation.
>> 
>> My 1980 studio U1 felt light, so my tech put weights on the back side of the keys - very nice feel, though my students find it a bit heavy. My 1997 DKV U1 at home has no weights, but the action is very nice. The MPX 1Z felt super-light, with the illusion of a short key dip. My tech showed me the round weights in the keys. Unfortunately, I would never add weights to a DKV as it might gum up the works.
>> 
>> So, if I understand correctly, my tech was correct in telling me that nothing could be done to change the feel of this action?
>> 
>> Sam 
>> www.keyboardcollective.com
>> (212) 684-3304
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>>> On May 24, 2014, at 8:05 PM, "Bill Current Gmail bill.brandom03@... [disklavier]" <disklavier@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
>>> 
>>>  
>>> 
>>> Hi again Sam,
>>> 
>>> Touch down weight is affected by flange tightness, weight of the hammers, etc. 
>>> 
>>> In the factory, touch weight is changed with the size and location of lead weights inserted into the keys. The keys in a piano are levers. So, if a lead weight is placed on the key top side of the lever it will make the touch lighter. If it is placed to the back side of the key, it will increase the down weight.
>>> 
>>> Bill
>>> 
>>>  iPhone
>>> 
>>> On May 24, 2014, at 4:26 PM, "Sam Kanter skanter123@... [disklavier]" <disklavier@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
>>> 
>>>  
>>> 
>>> Bill, what is touch weight, and how is it adjusted?
>>> 
>>> Sam
>>> www.keyboardcollective.com
>>> (212) 684-3304
>>> 
>>> *(Sent from phone - please excuse brevity and typos.)
>>> 
>>>> On May 24, 2014, at 1:02 AM, "Bill Brandom bill.brandom03@... [disklavier]" <disklavier@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
>>>> 
>>>>  
>>>> 
>>>> Hi Sam,
>>>> 
>>>> I am surprised too that your technician could not identify why the action on this piano is so much different than the two you have.
>>>> 
>>>> Did he say that the touch weight, key dip and aftertouch was the same on all three pianos?
>>>> 
>>>> If they are the same, what feels different on this piano?
>>>> 
>>>> Bill
>>>> 
>>>> Sent from my iPad
>>>> 
>>>>> On May 23, 2014, at 8:58 PM, "Skanter123 skanter123@... [disklavier]" <disklavier@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
>>>>> 
>>>>>  
>>>>> I went and took another look at 2001 MPX 1Z UI upright I was considering buying. If you remember, last rime I checked it out I was unhappy with the feel of the action, as it seemed ultra light with little resistance or weight to it.
>>>>> 
>>>>> This time I took my tuner/tech. He inspected it carefully, but said there was nothing wrong with the instrument, and not much could be done to change the way it was. I own two other U1s, (one DKV and one non-DKV) and I really feel this piano is inferior in action and in sound. I'm surprised, as it is relatively unused, the DKV functions work fine, but playing the piano is nothing like the other two and just not a good experience. Very disappointing, as I wanted to buy this for my studio for teaching purposes.
>>>>> 
>>>>> Sam 
>>>>> www.keyboardcollective.com
>>>>> (212) 684-3304
>>> 
> 
>

Re: [disklavier] Appraising DKV

2014-05-25 by Carol Beigel

It really is sounding more and more  like the damper lift timing.  The sooner you feel the weight of the damper lever springs the heavier the touch.  This adjustment on an upright is made by bending the spoons on the back of the piano action.  Getting this adjustment even is really tricky.

Carol Beigel
Show quoted textHide quoted text
On May 24, 2014, at 10:54 PM, Skanter123 skanter123@... [disklavier] <disklavier@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

> 
> 
> Thanks Carol, I will forward your comments to my tech.
> 
> I don't think I like an extraordinarily heavy action - just not a very light one. Without enough resistance, it's difficult to control dynamics. The MPX100II I have at home has no extra weights and feels fine. The MPX 1Z i've referred to has the feel of a cheap spinet. There is nothing to "dig" into when playing. Perhaps it can be adjusted, but I have my doubts...
> 
> Sam 
> www.keyboardcollective.com
> (212) 684-3304
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> On May 24, 2014, at 10:41 PM, "Carol Beigel carol@... [disklavier]" <disklavier@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
> 
>> Sam, piano technicians spend their entire careers studying touch weight. Not only is there up-weight and down-weight to consider, there is also friction.  One of the really nice things about a DKV is to watch the ppp numbers to show you where the friction is.  Without going into this amazing science, the problem seems to be that you like an extraordinary heavy touch.  My suggestions would be:
>> 
>> 
>> 1) check the damper timing.  The dampers may be lifting too late.  Make the dampers pull back sooner so the weight of the damper springs can be felt almost immediately. 
>> 
>> 2) have the black keys raised up a little bit
>> 
>> 3) use half cut paper balance rail punchings to make a fake-out adjustment of the capstan to the wippen ratio
>> 
>> Carol Beigel
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> On May 24, 2014, at 10:19 PM, Bill Current Gmail bill.brandom03@... [disklavier] <disklavier@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> Sam,
>>> 
>>> Without seeing these three pianos, it is impossible for me to say whether something can be done to make them feel more equal.
>>> 
>>> Bill
>>> 
>>>  iPhone
>>> 
>>> On May 24, 2014, at 6:58 PM, "Skanter123 skanter123@... [disklavier]" <disklavier@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
>>> 
>>> 
>>>> In the factory, touch weight is changed with the size and location of lead weights inserted into the keys. The keys in a piano are levers. So, if a lead weight is placed on the key top side of the lever it will make the touch lighter. If it is placed to the back side of the key, it will increase the down weight.
>>> 
>>> Bill, thanks again for the explanation.
>>> 
>>> My 1980 studio U1 felt light, so my tech put weights on the back side of the keys - very nice feel, though my students find it a bit heavy. My 1997 DKV U1 at home has no weights, but the action is very nice. The MPX 1Z felt super-light, with the illusion of a short key dip. My tech showed me the round weights in the keys. Unfortunately, I would never add weights to a DKV as it might gum up the works.
>>> 
>>> So, if I understand correctly, my tech was correct in telling me that nothing could be done to change the feel of this action?
>>> 
>>> Sam 
>>> www.keyboardcollective.com
>>> (212) 684-3304
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> On May 24, 2014, at 8:05 PM, "Bill Current Gmail bill.brandom03@... [disklavier]" <disklavier@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
>>> 
>>>>  
>>>> 
>>>> Hi again Sam,
>>>> 
>>>> Touch down weight is affected by flange tightness, weight of the hammers, etc. 
>>>> 
>>>> In the factory, touch weight is changed with the size and location of lead weights inserted into the keys. The keys in a piano are levers. So, if a lead weight is placed on the key top side of the lever it will make the touch lighter. If it is placed to the back side of the key, it will increase the down weight.
>>>> 
>>>> Bill
>>>> 
>>>>  iPhone
>>>> 
>>>> On May 24, 2014, at 4:26 PM, "Sam Kanter skanter123@gmail.com [disklavier]" <disklavier@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
>>>> 
>>>>  
>>>> 
>>>> Bill, what is touch weight, and how is it adjusted?
>>>> 
>>>> Sam
>>>> www.keyboardcollective.com
>>>> (212) 684-3304
>>>> 
>>>> *(Sent from phone - please excuse brevity and typos.)
>>>> 
>>>> On May 24, 2014, at 1:02 AM, "Bill Brandom bill.brandom03@... [disklavier]" <disklavier@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
>>>> 
>>>>>  
>>>>> 
>>>>> Hi Sam,
>>>>> 
>>>>> I am surprised too that your technician could not identify why the action on this piano is so much different than the two you have.
>>>>> 
>>>>> Did he say that the touch weight, key dip and aftertouch was the same on all three pianos?
>>>>> 
>>>>> If they are the same, what feels different on this piano?
>>>>> 
>>>>> Bill
>>>>> 
>>>>> Sent from my iPad
>>>>> 
>>>>> On May 23, 2014, at 8:58 PM, "Skanter123 skanter123@... [disklavier]" <disklavier@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
>>>>> 
>>>>>>  
>>>>>> I went and took another look at 2001 MPX 1Z UI upright I was considering buying. If you remember, last rime I checked it out I was unhappy with the feel of the action, as it seemed ultra light with little resistance or weight to it.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> This time I took my tuner/tech. He inspected it carefully, but said there was nothing wrong with the instrument, and not much could be done to change the way it was. I own two other U1s, (one DKV and one non-DKV) and I really feel this piano is inferior in action and in sound. I'm surprised, as it is relatively unused, the DKV functions work fine, but playing the piano is nothing like the other two and just not a good experience. Very disappointing, as I wanted to buy this for my studio for teaching purposes.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Sam 
>>>>>> www.keyboardcollective.com
>>>>>> (212) 684-3304
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>> 
>> 
> 
> 
>

Re: [disklavier] Appraising DKV

2014-05-25 by Skanter123

Thanks again, Carol, I will forward to my tech and see what he thinks.

Sam 
www.keyboardcollective.com
(212) 684-3304
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> On May 24, 2014, at 11:01 PM, "Carol Beigel carol@... [disklavier]" <disklavier@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
> 
> It really is sounding more and more  like the damper lift timing.  The sooner you feel the weight of the damper lever springs the heavier the touch.  This adjustment on an upright is made by bending the spoons on the back of the piano action.  Getting this adjustment even is really tricky.
> 
> 
> Carol Beigel
> 
>> On May 24, 2014, at 10:54 PM, Skanter123 skanter123@... [disklavier] <disklavier@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> Thanks Carol, I will forward your comments to my tech.
>> 
>> I don't think I like an extraordinarily heavy action - just not a very light one. Without enough resistance, it's difficult to control dynamics. The MPX100II I have at home has no extra weights and feels fine. The MPX 1Z i've referred to has the feel of a cheap spinet. There is nothing to "dig" into when playing. Perhaps it can be adjusted, but I have my doubts...
>> 
>> Sam 
>> www.keyboardcollective.com
>> (212) 684-3304
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>>> On May 24, 2014, at 10:41 PM, "Carol Beigel carol@... [disklavier]" <disklavier@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
>>> 
>>> Sam, piano technicians spend their entire careers studying touch weight. Not only is there up-weight and down-weight to consider, there is also friction.  One of the really nice things about a DKV is to watch the ppp numbers to show you where the friction is.  Without going into this amazing science, the problem seems to be that you like an extraordinary heavy touch.  My suggestions would be:
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 1) check the damper timing.  The dampers may be lifting too late.  Make the dampers pull back sooner so the weight of the damper springs can be felt almost immediately. 
>>> 
>>> 2) have the black keys raised up a little bit
>>> 
>>> 3) use half cut paper balance rail punchings to make a fake-out adjustment of the capstan to the wippen ratio
>>> 
>>> Carol Beigel
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>>> On May 24, 2014, at 10:19 PM, Bill Current Gmail bill.brandom03@... [disklavier] <disklavier@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> Sam,
>>>> 
>>>> Without seeing these three pianos, it is impossible for me to say whether something can be done to make them feel more equal.
>>>> 
>>>> Bill
>>>> 
>>>>  iPhone
>>>> 
>>>>> On May 24, 2014, at 6:58 PM, "Skanter123 skanter123@... [disklavier]" <disklavier@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>>> In the factory, touch weight is changed with the size and location of lead weights inserted into the keys. The keys in a piano are levers. So, if a lead weight is placed on the key top side of the lever it will make the touch lighter. If it is placed to the back side of the key, it will increase the down weight.
>>>> 
>>>> Bill, thanks again for the explanation.
>>>> 
>>>> My 1980 studio U1 felt light, so my tech put weights on the back side of the keys - very nice feel, though my students find it a bit heavy. My 1997 DKV U1 at home has no weights, but the action is very nice. The MPX 1Z felt super-light, with the illusion of a short key dip. My tech showed me the round weights in the keys. Unfortunately, I would never add weights to a DKV as it might gum up the works.
>>>> 
>>>> So, if I understand correctly, my tech was correct in telling me that nothing could be done to change the feel of this action?
>>>> 
>>>> Sam 
>>>> www.keyboardcollective.com
>>>> (212) 684-3304
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>>> On May 24, 2014, at 8:05 PM, "Bill Current Gmail bill.brandom03@... [disklavier]" <disklavier@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
>>>>> 
>>>>>  
>>>>> 
>>>>> Hi again Sam,
>>>>> 
>>>>> Touch down weight is affected by flange tightness, weight of the hammers, etc. 
>>>>> 
>>>>> In the factory, touch weight is changed with the size and location of lead weights inserted into the keys. The keys in a piano are levers. So, if a lead weight is placed on the key top side of the lever it will make the touch lighter. If it is placed to the back side of the key, it will increase the down weight.
>>>>> 
>>>>> Bill
>>>>> 
>>>>>  iPhone
>>>>> 
>>>>> On May 24, 2014, at 4:26 PM, "Sam Kanter skanter123@... [disklavier]" <disklavier@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
>>>>> 
>>>>>  
>>>>> 
>>>>> Bill, what is touch weight, and how is it adjusted?
>>>>> 
>>>>> Sam
>>>>> www.keyboardcollective.com
>>>>> (212) 684-3304
>>>>> 
>>>>> *(Sent from phone - please excuse brevity and typos.)
>>>>> 
>>>>>> On May 24, 2014, at 1:02 AM, "Bill Brandom bill.brandom03@... [disklavier]" <disklavier@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
>>>>>> 
>>>>>>  
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Hi Sam,
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> I am surprised too that your technician could not identify why the action on this piano is so much different than the two you have.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Did he say that the touch weight, key dip and aftertouch was the same on all three pianos?
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> If they are the same, what feels different on this piano?
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Bill
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Sent from my iPad
>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> On May 23, 2014, at 8:58 PM, "Skanter123 skanter123@... [disklavier]" <disklavier@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>  
>>>>>>> I went and took another look at 2001 MPX 1Z UI upright I was considering buying. If you remember, last rime I checked it out I was unhappy with the feel of the action, as it seemed ultra light with little resistance or weight to it.
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> This time I took my tuner/tech. He inspected it carefully, but said there was nothing wrong with the instrument, and not much could be done to change the way it was. I own two other U1s, (one DKV and one non-DKV) and I really feel this piano is inferior in action and in sound. I'm surprised, as it is relatively unused, the DKV functions work fine, but playing the piano is nothing like the other two and just not a good experience. Very disappointing, as I wanted to buy this for my studio for teaching purposes.
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> Sam 
>>>>>>> www.keyboardcollective.com
>>>>>>> (212) 684-3304
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>> 
>> 
> 
>

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