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Thread

Using MIDI to bypass Wagon Grand floppy.

2014-11-22 by ryanlutterbach@...

Hello folks, I believe you are literally the only people on earth who may be able to help here!

I have an original Wagon Grand and the disk drive went out. After experimenting with finding a vintage drive replacement (unable to find) and a trying an HXC floppy emulator (far too complex for my ability), I've decided to attempt to bypass the drive by using MIDI.

I have a Macbook running 10.8 with a mio iConnectivity USB-MIDI. As I've found in this forum and elsewhere, I'm using Rondo as a jukebox.

Via MIDI Monitor, I see that Rondo is apparently successful in sending MIDI messages to the mio, but there is no response from the piano.

I have no idea what the MIDI settings on the Control Wagon (or any other setting on the Control Wagon) must be in order to successfully pass the signal. I've tried about every setting in the original Wagon manual, but nothing seems to work.

Can anyone help here?

Thanks!

Ryan

Re: [disklavier] Using MIDI to bypass Wagon Grand floppy.

2014-11-22 by Skanter123

I will let one of the experts here advise you on settings. I will just say that I use Van Basco as my MIDI player and it works fine. I also use a sequencer (PG Music Realband) for playing multi-track songs as I can use virtual insteuments in the computer for non-piano sounds). Perhaps you should try Van Basco.

Sam 
www.keyboardcollective.com

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> On Nov 22, 2014, at 1:54 PM, ryanlutterbach@... [disklavier] <disklavier@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
> 
> Hello folks, I believe you are literally the only people on earth who may be able to help here!
> 
> 
> 
> I have an original Wagon Grand and the disk drive went out.  After experimenting with finding a vintage drive replacement (unable to find) and a trying an HXC floppy emulator (far too complex for my ability), I've decided to attempt to bypass the drive by using MIDI.
> 
> 
> 
> I have a Macbook running 10.8 with a mio iConnectivity USB-MIDI.  As I've found in this forum and elsewhere, I'm using Rondo as a jukebox.
> 
> 
> 
> Via MIDI Monitor, I see that Rondo is apparently successful in sending MIDI messages to the mio, but there is no response from the piano.
> 
> 
> 
> I have no idea what the MIDI settings on the Control Wagon (or any other setting on the Control Wagon) must be in order to successfully pass the signal.  I've tried about every setting in the original Wagon manual, but nothing seems to work.
> 
> 
> 
> Can anyone help here?
> 
> 
> 
> Thanks!
> 
> 
> 
> Ryan
> 
>

Re: [disklavier] Using MIDI to bypass Wagon Grand floppy.

2014-11-22 by Carol Beigel

This setup should work.  Make certain that the MIDI In on the Disklaver is connected to the MIDI Out on the computer.  Make sure in Setup you have selected the output in Rondo to be either Core MIDI or your MIDI interface.

Carol Beigel

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> On Nov 22, 2014, at 2:13 PM, Skanter123 skanter123@... [disklavier] <disklavier@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
> 
> 
> 
> I will let one of the experts here advise you on settings. I will just say that I use Van Basco as my MIDI player and it works fine. I also use a sequencer (PG Music Realband) for playing multi-track songs as I can use virtual insteuments in the computer for non-piano sounds). Perhaps you should try Van Basco.
> 
> Sam 
> www.keyboardcollective.com <http://www.keyboardcollective.com/>
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> On Nov 22, 2014, at 1:54 PM, ryanlutterbach@... <mailto:ryanlutterbach@...> [disklavier] <disklavier@yahoogroups.com <mailto:disklavier@yahoogroups.com>> wrote:
> 
>> 
>> Hello folks, I believe you are literally the only people on earth who may be able to help here!
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> I have an original Wagon Grand and the disk drive went out.  After experimenting with finding a vintage drive replacement (unable to find) and a trying an HXC floppy emulator (far too complex for my ability), I've decided to attempt to bypass the drive by using MIDI.
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> I have a Macbook running 10.8 with a mio iConnectivity USB-MIDI.  As I've found in this forum and elsewhere, I'm using Rondo as a jukebox.
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> Via MIDI Monitor, I see that Rondo is apparently successful in sending MIDI messages to the mio, but there is no response from the piano.
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> I have no idea what the MIDI settings on the Control Wagon (or any other setting on the Control Wagon) must be in order to successfully pass the signal.  I've tried about every setting in the original Wagon manual, but nothing seems to work.
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> Can anyone help here?
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> Thanks!
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> Ryan
>> 
>> 
> 
> 
>

Re: [disklavier] Using MIDI to bypass Wagon Grand floppy.

2014-11-22 by ryanlutterbach@...

Hmm, thanks for the insight. No luck. Audio Midi Setup shows Mio as present and active. Rondo is set with mio as destination. Midi monitor shows the rolling message log sent to the mio as Rondo plays the MIDI file.

What is the expected behavior of the DKW10 Control Wagon when successfully receiving MIDI? Right now, the display only shows "Insert Disk!" Should it "just work" when the wagon receives a valid signal?

Re: [disklavier] Using MIDI to bypass Wagon Grand floppy.

2014-11-22 by Bill Brandom

If the disk drive is not working, just press the MIDI button to get to "MIDI MODE". Then put the piano in MIDI OUT = KEYBOARD OUT. Now when you play the piano, the MIDI data goes out the Disklavier.

Bill

 iPhone

On Nov 22, 2014, at 11:17 AM, Carol Beigel carol@... [disklavier] <disklavier@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

This setup should work.  Make certain that the MIDI In on the Disklaver is connected to the MIDI Out on the computer.  Make sure in Setup you have selected the output in Rondo to be either Core MIDI or your MIDI interface.


Carol Beigel

Show quoted textHide quoted text

> On Nov 22, 2014, at 2:13 PM, Skanter123 skanter123@... [disklavier] <disklavier@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
> 
> 
> 
> I will let one of the experts here advise you on settings. I will just say that I use Van Basco as my MIDI player and it works fine. I also use a sequencer (PG Music Realband) for playing multi-track songs as I can use virtual insteuments in the computer for non-piano sounds). Perhaps you should try Van Basco.
> 
> Sam 
> www.keyboardcollective.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>> On Nov 22, 2014, at 1:54 PM, ryanlutterbach@... [disklavier] <disklavier@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
>> 
>> 
>> Hello folks, I believe you are literally the only people on earth who may be able to help here!
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> I have an original Wagon Grand and the disk drive went out.  After experimenting with finding a vintage drive replacement (unable to find) and a trying an HXC floppy emulator (far too complex for my ability), I've decided to attempt to bypass the drive by using MIDI.
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> I have a Macbook running 10.8 with a mio iConnectivity USB-MIDI.  As I've found in this forum and elsewhere, I'm using Rondo as a jukebox.
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> Via MIDI Monitor, I see that Rondo is apparently successful in sending MIDI messages to the mio, but there is no response from the piano.
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> I have no idea what the MIDI settings on the Control Wagon (or any other setting on the Control Wagon) must be in order to successfully pass the signal.  I've tried about every setting in the original Wagon manual, but nothing seems to work.
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> Can anyone help here?
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> Thanks!
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> Ryan
>>

Re: [disklavier] Using MIDI to bypass Wagon Grand floppy.

2014-11-23 by ryanlutterbach@...

Great, it's working now. Thanks for the hints. A lot simpler than I expected given the combination of hardware and software from 1989 and 2014.

A followup question, since the volume control on the Wagon is now bypassed when playing MIDI files from the laptop, is there a way to control the volume (or adjust the overall "velocity") of a MIDI file other than altering the file itself? The jukebox apps (Rondo, qMidi, Sweet Midi) don't seem to offer a volume adjustment.

Re: [disklavier] Using MIDI to bypass Wagon Grand floppy.

2014-11-23 by Spencer Chase

most midi file players do not offer velocity modification for a very good reason. in order to have accurate timing of midi events it is best to use the windows multimedia API to send the events to the midi device. realtime modification of events is not possible this way. it would be possible to preprocess the events in an application such as my midimod2 program and it would be possible to write a player that preprocesses chunks but it will not give immediate feedback of the changes.

another possibility is to use a player that processes each event and does not use the MM API. if you have a fast computer and if other applications are not running this can work reasonably well. however there is no way to stop windows from doing what it thinks is more important than accurately streaming your midi.

i have several players that i wrote that work this way. i have not bothered to write one that does playlists, they all require loading one file at a time. they were also written for different purposes such as adding lyrics to midi files or adding dynamics while playing. my pianola player program which can be gotten from the following page of my web site (a work in progress and not great and may never be.) is one of the programs that allows you to change dynamics while playing as well as changing tempo etc. the help file is out of sync with the current version but might be good enough to help you figure out how to use the program. some day i might make a playlist player with things like realtime dynamic control but it is not high on my list right now. the pianola player is mainly intended to be used for active modification of dynamics but you can start a file and with appropriate checkbox options apply a proportional dynamic correction without constant control.

another possibility is to use an application that sends volume controllers to the midi device but i am not sure if the DKV responds to these and there is also the problem that current versions of windows do not like to attach multiple applications to a single midi device. XP let you but since then, they really screwed things up so you would need an application like midiox to make it work. if anyone is interested, i do have an app that will send volume or expression messages to a midi device. no idea if it will work for the DKV.

http://spencerserolls.com/Files4Download.html

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On 11/22/2014 6:18 PM, ryanlutterbach@... [disklavier] wrote:

Great, it's working now. Thanks for the hints. A lot simpler than I expected given the combination of hardware and software from 1989 and 2014.

A followup question, since the volume control on the Wagon is now bypassed when playing MIDI files from the laptop, is there a way to control the volume (or adjust the overall "velocity") of a MIDI file other than altering the file itself? The jukebox apps (Rondo, qMidi, Sweet Midi) don't seem to offer a volume adjustment.

-- 

Best regards, Spencer Chase
67550-Bell Springs Rd.
Garberville, CA 95542 Postal service only.
Laytonville, CA 95454 UPS only.
Spencer@...
http://www.spencerserolls.com
(425) 791-0309

Re: [disklavier] Using MIDI to bypass Wagon Grand floppy.

2014-11-23 by Bill Brandom

The Wagon grand does NOT respond to Controller 7 (volume control.)

Bill

 iPhone

On Nov 23, 2014, at 11:32 AM, Spencer Chase lists@spencerserolls.com [disklavier] <disklavier@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

most midi file players do not offer velocity modification for a very good reason. in order to have accurate timing of midi events it is best to use the windows multimedia API to send the events to the midi device. realtime modification of events is not possible this way. it would be possible to preprocess the events in an application such as my midimod2 program and it would be possible to write a player that preprocesses chunks but it will not give immediate feedback of the changes.

another possibility is to use a player that processes each event and does not use the MM API. if you have a fast computer and if other applications are not running this can work reasonably well. however there is no way to stop windows from doing what it thinks is more important than accurately streaming your midi. 

i have several players that i wrote that work this way. i have not bothered to write one that does playlists, they all require loading one file at a time. they were also written for different purposes such as adding lyrics to midi files or adding dynamics while playing. my pianola player program which can be gotten from the following page of my web site (a work in progress and not great and may never be.) is one of the programs that allows you to change dynamics while playing as well as changing tempo etc. the help file is out of sync with the current version but might be good enough to help you figure out how to use the program. some day i might make a playlist player with things like realtime dynamic control but it is not high on my list right now. the pianola player is mainly intended to be used for active modification of dynamics but you can start a file and with appropriate checkbox options apply a proportional dynamic correction without constant control. 

another possibility is to use an application that sends volume controllers to the midi device but i am not sure if the DKV responds to these and there is also the problem that current versions of windows do not like to attach multiple applications to a single midi device. XP let you but since then, they really screwed things up so you would need an application like midiox to make it work. if anyone is interested, i do have an app that will send volume or expression messages to a midi device. no idea if it will work for the DKV. 

http://spencerserolls.com/Files4Download.html

> On 11/22/2014 6:18 PM, ryanlutterbach@gmail.com [disklavier] wrote:
>  
> Great, it's working now. Thanks for the hints. A lot simpler than I expected given the combination of hardware and software from 1989 and 2014.
> 
> 
> A followup question, since the volume control on the Wagon is now bypassed when playing MIDI files from the laptop, is there a way to control the volume (or adjust the overall "velocity") of a MIDI file other than altering the file itself?  The jukebox apps (Rondo, qMidi, Sweet Midi) don't seem to offer a volume adjustment.

-- 

Best regards, Spencer Chase
67550-Bell Springs Rd.
Garberville, CA 95542 Postal service only.
Laytonville, CA 95454 UPS only.
Spencer@...
http://www.spencerserolls.com
(425) 791-0309

Re: [disklavier] Using MIDI to bypass Wagon Grand floppy.

2014-11-26 by George Frederick Litterst

Good afternoon, everyone.

As Bill pointed out, the original Wagon Grand Disklavier does not respond to MIDI volume control (controller 7) nor to MIDI expression (controller 11), you’ll have to scale back the velocities. This can be done in a MIDI editor. I believe that there are members of this forum who have created freeware/shareware tools for this purpose.

Regards,
PianoBench

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> On Nov 22, 2014, at 9:18 PM, ryanlutterbach@... [disklavier] <disklavier@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
> 
> Great, it's working now. Thanks for the hints. A lot simpler than I expected given the combination of hardware and software from 1989 and 2014.
> 
> 
> A followup question, since the volume control on the Wagon is now bypassed when playing MIDI files from the laptop, is there a way to control the volume (or adjust the overall "velocity") of a MIDI file other than altering the file itself?  The jukebox apps (Rondo, qMidi, Sweet Midi) don't seem to offer a volume adjustment.
> 
> 
>

Re: [disklavier] Using MIDI to bypass Wagon Grand floppy.

2014-11-26 by Spencer Chase

my midimod2 program does velocity scaling as well as other things.. also have a player that changes dynamics realtime.

Show quoted textHide quoted text

On 11/26/2014 9:59 AM, George Frederick Litterst PianoBench@... [disklavier] wrote:

Good afternoon, everyone.

As Bill pointed out, the original Wagon Grand Disklavier does not respond to MIDI volume control (controller 7) nor to MIDI expression (controller 11), you’ll have to scale back the velocities. This can be done in a MIDI editor. I believe that there are members of this forum who have created freeware/shareware tools for this purpose.

Regards,

PianoBench

On Nov 22, 2014, at 9:18 PM, ryanlutterbach@... [disklavier] <disklavier@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

Great, it's working now. Thanks for the hints. A lot simpler than I expected given the combination of hardware and software from 1989 and 2014.

A followup question, since the volume control on the Wagon is now bypassed when playing MIDI files from the laptop, is there a way to control the volume (or adjust the overall "velocity") of a MIDI file other than altering the file itself? The jukebox apps (Rondo, qMidi, Sweet Midi) don't seem to offer a volume adjustment.

-- 

Best regards, Spencer Chase
67550-Bell Springs Rd.
Garberville, CA 95542 Postal service only.
Laytonville, CA 95454 UPS only.
Spencer@...
http://www.spencerserolls.com
(425) 791-0309

Re: [disklavier] Using MIDI to bypass Wagon Grand floppy.

2014-12-05 by George Frederick Litterst

Good morning, everyone.

Ryan, the Wagon Grand has several MIDI settings to be aware of:

MIDI Out
If MIDI Out is set to Keyboard Out, what you play on the keys is sent to the computer. If it is set to Delay Out, what is played from the floppy disk is sent to the computer.

In the case of Keyboard Out, you have a choice of channels on which to send MIDI data, from 1-16 plus a special setting called HP. If you choose HP, notes and on/off pedals are sent on channel 1 and incremental pedal data is sent on channel 3. You also have choices for transposing the MIDI data and splitting the keyboard so that the lower end sends notes on the designated MIDI channel and the upper end sends on the next higher channel.

MIDI In
You have 2 choices here: Delay In and Realtime. You should almost always choose Delay In for accurate playback (an exception would be using the software program Internet MIDI). When set to Delay In, you’ll hear the performance 1/2 second late but the timing should be accurate.

You also have a choice of channel (from 1-16 and HP) for MIDI input. If you are not sending MIDI data to the piano on a channel that matches the piano’s receive channel, you won’t hear anything.

In your case, I suspect one of the following problems: 

(1) The MIDI In and MIDI Out cables are reversed.

(2) You are not sending MIDI data to the piano on the same channel that the piano is set to.

If you need a manual for the Wagon Grand, you can download a PDF from the Disklavier Education Network website:

http://www.yamahaden.com/resources-2/item/277-wagon-grand-manual <http://www.yamahaden.com/resources-2/item/277-wagon-grand-manual>

Regards,
PianoBench

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> On Nov 22, 2014, at 3:47 PM, ryanlutterbach@... [disklavier] <disklavier@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
> 
> Hmm, thanks for the insight.  No luck. Audio Midi Setup shows Mio as present and active.  Rondo is set with mio as destination.  Midi monitor shows the rolling message log sent to the mio as Rondo plays the MIDI file.
> 
> 
> What is the expected behavior of the DKW10 Control Wagon when successfully receiving MIDI?  Right now, the display only shows "Insert Disk!"  Should it "just work" when the wagon receives a valid signal?
> 
> 
> 
>

Re: [disklavier] Using MIDI to bypass Wagon Grand floppy.

2014-12-05 by Bill Brandom

Press the MIDI button and see if the screen changes to some MIDI parameter. If so, you are in MIDI mode. If this doesn't work, power up while depressing the MIDI button.

Bill

 iPhone

On Nov 22, 2014, at 12:47 PM, ryanlutterbach@... [disklavier] <disklavier@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

Hmm, thanks for the insight.  No luck. Audio Midi Setup shows Mio as present and active.  Rondo is set with mio as destination.  Midi monitor shows the rolling message log sent to the mio as Rondo plays the MIDI file.


What is the expected behavior of the DKW10 Control Wagon when successfully receiving MIDI?  Right now, the display only shows "Insert Disk!"  Should it "just work" when the wagon receives a valid signal?