Disklavier

I would like to respond to the concept that older Disklaviers should be upgradable to the latest models – in this case the Enspire.  I am a technician, and own a MarkIIXG with a DCD1 player.  I have had the opportunity this week play with the Enspire and check out its backward compatibility.  Please note that the following comments are my own personal opinions and observations. 

I have serviced Disklaviers since they first appeared on the market in the early 1980s.  They are fascinating pianos and have brought much joy and music innovation to their owners.  For all of us who have purchased one, the WOW factor has been incredible and they have they been the show ponies in our living rooms.  The Disklavier was also (primarily) designed as a teaching tool.  No other system has such a precision Record and Playback capability.  This is where I am most concerned about the lack of backward capability as a teaching tool for music teachers who already own Disklaviers. as well as the Enspire’s inability to play the music libraries we have purchased from Yamaha on both floppy disks and CDs without extensive, third party work-arounds.

First of all, there is no control box on this Disklavier.  Once you have spent the approximate $18,000 to purchase this unit, you still need to go out and buy an iPad, or iPod, or iPhone to control it.  A wireless Wifi interface is included so it will work with your home wireless router.  It does not work with Android devices and I am not certain that it will even work without Wifi.  Then you must go to the App Store and download the EN controller software on your Apple mobile device.  The Enspire also has a port to connect to a computer and the From/To PC folder should it find the computer.  The Enspire also comes with an impressive built-in library of songs.

The Enspire is designed to work with a thumb drive plugged into the USB port.  It has some internal memory but I have found no specs on just how much. Songs are both recorded to and played from this USB  drive.   I connected an external Yamaha Floppy disk drive to the USB port on the Enspire to see if it would play PIanoSoft floppies.  It would not see the older 720 disks, but it managed to work with a 1.44 floppy and automatically copied those Yamaha files to its internal memory.

I also tried to plug in a portable CD drive to the USB port and had no luck.  Perhaps there was not enough power as portable CD drive cables usually have one end plugging into the CD drive, and 2 USB connectors plugging into the laptop.  Since there is only one USB port on the Enspire, I would like to try plugging the other USB wire into a portable power source to see if there is enough power.  However, with just one connector, I did notice a green light on the CD drive and heard the disk spinning inside.

So, out of the box, it does not look like the Enspire is compatible with my PianoSoft and PianoSoftPlus Audio library.  I would need to use third party software to convert the files on the Yamaha floppies to standard MIDI files and put them on a thumb drive.  I am not sure that can even be done for the music on the CDs.

  As for using the Enspire as a teaching tool, it can be used for piano lessons over the internet providing the teacher’s Disklavier has that capability.  This means that the teacher’s Disklavier would be an E3 or a Mark IV, or an older model with  DKC850 control box.  Those are the only models capable of using a USB port or an internet connection.

For (teachers) Disklaviers without USB ports or an IP address, the  recording on the Enspire’s thumb drive (which is a standard MIDI file format) would need to be put on a floppy disk , OR…..  the teacher could purchase the Yamaha MD-BT01 Wirelss Bluetooth MIDI adapter for about $50 and use an iPhone along with a $15 Sweet MIDI Player app.  I have explained the details of this connection at:  www.midiplayertools.com/Connecting.htm <http://www.midiplayertools.com/Connecting.htm>
 Conclusion.  Why would anyone want to “upgrade” their Diskavier to Enspire specs?  If you want an IP address for your Disklavier and a USB port, and a CD drive, then buy the DKC850 control box for about $1800.  This would give you Internet Radio and piano lessons over the internet as well as capability to play Piano Soft Plus Audio CDs.  You can even buy for about $50 the Netgear WNCE2001 to give your Ethernet port equipped Disklavier wireless connectivity.  AND … you can even use the library of music you have worked so hard to acquire!

I do not want to discourage anyone from buying an Enspire.  It is a very nice instrument.  In my opinion, it lacks some very basic capabilities the older models have, like the ability to play the Yamaha PianoSoft library unless you buy the music online.  You have to buy the controller separately (iPad) and the speakers.  You absolutely need a wireless connection to the iPad or it does not function.  Yes, it is high tech, but that does not make it better in my opinion.  In fact, had I not come across a nice digital piano with a head phone jack to practice silently, I might have traded in my beloved MarkIIXG with the DCD1 CD player, for that Trans Acoustic model!!!

Carol Beigel, RPT

I probably did not make it clear, but my major concern with the new Enspire Disklavier is the lack of compatibility with those older models owned by piano teachers who use them as a teaching tool.  For instance, my own piano teacher owns a Mark III which has a floppy drive and a CD player.  My own Mark IIXG Disklavier records to a floppy disk.  She wants me to record a song and play it back on her piano so she can make a CD.  So, I record my piano lesson to a floppy disk, then take that disk to her studio and play it back on her piano.

If I was a student with a new Enspire, we would have a problem doing that.  On the Enspire, I could only record to a USB thumb drive.  My teacher has no thumb drive on her Mark III.  We have the following options:

1)  She could upgrade her piano with an $1800 DKC850.  It would then have a USB port.

2) I could email the MIDI file to her.  She could burn it to a floppy disk on her computer, or buy an external floppy drive to make the disk.  Or see #7 below for probably the best solution.

3) I could use my own computer to do the above. Put the file from my USB drive into my computer and burn it to a floppy disk.

4) I could Record my song as an audio file on the Enspire and burn it to a CD, but that would not make the keys and pedals play on her Mark III.

5) I could buy a computer and attach it to the Enspire and record a MIDI file through expensive DAW software, then burn it to a CD.

6) I am not sure about this one, but supposing the teacher upgraded by buying a DKC850, we could share this piano lesson through Skype and my playing would show up in real time on her piano.  I do not think though, that she could Record that performance and burn it to a floppy disk.

7) Probably the best scenario, my teacher could buy a Yamaha Bluetooth wireless interface (MD BT01) for $50, and install it on her older Disklavier (any model!)  and get the $15 Sweet MIDI Player app for her iPhone (or buy an iPad).  When I emailed the file, she could save it to her DropBox or iCloud.  Sweet MIDI Player app will access that file from either cloud. 

8) I can transfer my recording from the USB drive to my own DropBox or iCloud and then download it to my own iPhone and play it for her at my lesson (providing she has procured the set-up above).  We could even Air Drop the file to her Apple mobile device.

And to think this whole thing started because a piano teacher called me because her student was about to go out and buy a Disklavier Enspire and wanted to know if the recordings of her student’s piano would be compatible with her own Disklavier.  I figured MIDI files were MIDI files, so sure.  Now that I have played with an Enspire, and discovered the USB thumb drive only , I find there is a tremendous hassle.

Carol Beigel

Carol, does the Enspire not have MIDI ports (or a USB port)?

It seems to me if people just attached a cheap laptop to their DKVs and bought an inexpensive MIDI recorder program, anyone could record, play, store and send performances from any model DKV to any other. DKC850 not needed, total cost under $500.

Sam Kanter
www.keyboardcollective.com
(212) 684-3304

> On Feb 16, 2017, at 12:41 AM, Carol Beigel carol@... [disklavier] <disklavier@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
> 
> I probably did not make it clear, but my major concern with the new Enspire Disklavier is the lack of compatibility with those older models owned by piano teachers who use them as a teaching tool. For instance, my own piano teacher owns a Mark III which has a floppy drive and a CD player. My own Mark IIXG Disklavier records to a floppy disk. She wants me to record a song and play it back on her piano so she can make a CD. So, I record my piano lesson to a floppy disk, then take that disk to her studio and play it back on her piano.
> 
> If I was a student with a new Enspire, we would have a problem doing that. On the Enspire, I could only record to a USB thumb drive. My teacher has no thumb drive on her Mark III. We have the following options:
> 
> 1) She could upgrade her piano with an $1800 DKC850. It would then have a USB port.
> 
> 2) I could email the MIDI file to her. She could burn it to a floppy disk on her computer, or buy an external floppy drive to make the disk. Or see #7 below for probably the best solution.
> 
> 3) I could use my own computer to do the above. Put the file from my USB drive into my computer and burn it to a floppy disk.
> 
> 4) I could Record my song as an audio file on the Enspire and burn it to a CD, but that would not make the keys and pedals play on her Mark III.
> 
> 5) I could buy a computer and attach it to the Enspire and record a MIDI file through expensive DAW software, then burn it to a CD.
> 
> 6) I am not sure about this one, but supposing the teacher upgraded by buying a DKC850, we could share this piano lesson through Skype and my playing would show up in real time on her piano. I do not think though, that she could Record that performance and burn it to a floppy disk.
> 
> 7) Probably the best scenario, my teacher could buy a Yamaha Bluetooth wireless interface (MD BT01) for $50, and install it on her older Disklavier (any model!) and get the $15 Sweet MIDI Player app for her iPhone (or buy an iPad). When I emailed the file, she could save it to her DropBox or iCloud. Sweet MIDI Player app will access that file from either cloud. 
> 
> 8) I can transfer my recording from the USB drive to my own DropBox or iCloud and then download it to my own iPhone and play it for her at my lesson (providing she has procured the set-up above). We could even Air Drop the file to her Apple mobile device.
> 
> And to think this whole thing started because a piano teacher called me because her student was about to go out and buy a Disklavier Enspire and wanted to know if the recordings of her student’s piano would be compatible with her own Disklavier. I figured MIDI files were MIDI files, so sure. Now that I have played with an Enspire, and discovered the USB thumb drive only , I find there is a tremendous hassle.
> 
> Carol Beigel
> 
>

The Enspire has both MIDI in and MIDI out ports, and one USB port for the wireless interface, and another USB port for the thumb drive..  It has internet capability for both sending and receiving MIDI files.  The problem is sending its files to older Disklaviers.  The cheapest solution for older Disklaviers is the $50 Yamaha wireless bluetooth adapter (MD-BT01); $15 Sweet MIDI Player from the App store and an Apple mobile device (iPhone, iPad or iPod).  Transfer files from Drop Box or iCloud thru Sweet MIDI Player.  Works on any player system that has BOTH MIDI in and MIDI out ports.  The power is in the MIDI out port!  There is also the Yamaha UD-BT01 wireless adapter for those instruments that only have a USB MIDI port.

Carol Beigel

I will work on it when I get back in the U.S.

Bill
Love God. Love People. Make a difference.


On Feb 16, 2017, at 3:07 PM, Carol Beigel carol@carolrpt.com [disklavier] <disklavier@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

The Enspire has both MIDI in and MIDI out ports, and one USB port for the wireless interface, and another USB port for the thumb drive.. It has internet capability for both sending and receiving MIDI files. The problem is sending its files to older Disklaviers. The cheapest solution for older Disklaviers is the $50 Yamaha wireless bluetooth adapter (MD-BT01); $15 Sweet MIDI Player from the App store and an Apple mobile device (iPhone, iPad or iPod). Transfer files from Drop Box or iCloud thru Sweet MIDI Player. Works on any player system that has BOTH MIDI in and MIDI out ports. The power is in the MIDI out port! There is also the Yamaha UD-BT01 wireless adapter for those instruments that only have a USB MIDI port.

Carol Beigel

Sorry Carol, I was responding to a different email.

However, when I get back to the U.S., I want to provide a good capability review of the Enspire. There are some misunderstandings out there.

Bill 
Love God. Love People. Make a difference.


On Feb 16, 2017, at 4:01 PM, Bill Brandom billbrando@aol.com [disklavier] <disklavier@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

I will work on it when I get back in the U.S.

Bill
Love God. Love People. Make a difference.


On Feb 16, 2017, at 3:07 PM, Carol Beigel carol@... [disklavier] <disklavier@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

 
The Enspire has both MIDI in and MIDI out ports, and one USB port for the wireless interface, and another USB port for the thumb drive.. It has internet capability for both sending and receiving MIDI files. The problem is sending its files to older Disklaviers. The cheapest solution for older Disklaviers is the $50 Yamaha wireless bluetooth adapter (MD-BT01); $15 Sweet MIDI Player from the App store and an Apple mobile device (iPhone, iPad or iPod). Transfer files from Drop Box or iCloud thru Sweet MIDI Player. Works on any player system that has BOTH MIDI in and MIDI out ports. The power is in the MIDI out port! There is also the Yamaha UD-BT01 wireless adapter for those instruments that only have a USB MIDI port.

Carol Beigel

Good morning, everyone.

Carol raises some interesting points comparing older and newer models of Disklavier when used as teaching/learning tools.

I have been teaching with Disklavier for over 25 years. In the early days, the Disklavier offered 2 basic capabilities: 

(1) recording

(2) playback

With those two features, I could:

—record students and let them listen to themselves
—play files recorded by other pianists for demonstration
—play pedagogical MIDI files with General MIDI backing tracks (provided by most of the educational publishers)

Those features are largely the same, today, as they were in the past although the media for storing recordings has changed.

The big innovations for teaching have come in the form of 3rd party software, available for Mac, PC, and iPad. Many companies have created educational software that can work with the Disklavier by communicating over a MIDI connection. Examples from my company, TimeWarp Technologies, include:

—SuperScore Music (iPad)
—Home Concert Xtreme (Mac, PC, iPad0
—Classroom Maestro (Mac, PC)
—Internet MID (Mac,PC)

As the Disklavier as evolved, it has become easier to use interactive 3rd party software because the MIDI connections have become easier. USB MIDI was added (starting with the Mark IV), and more recently, wireless Bluetooth MIDI has become available for all models of Disklavier.

Using 3rd party software, you can do so many things that you can’t do with the instrument by itself, such as practice a piano concerto with an orchestra that follows your playing, read music off the iPad screen using an app that responds to your playing, or connect your instrument over the Internet to another technology-equipped piano.

Carol did make mention of recent model Disklaviers and teaching over the Internet. The international standard way of connecting Disklaviers over the Internet is with a Mac/PC application called Internet MIDI, from TimeWarp Technologies. To the best of my knowledge, nearly all teachers and institutions that regularly connect pianos over the Internet for teaching purposes use Internet MIDI.

Internet MIDI can be used with older Disklaviers as well as modern Disklaviers, and it can be used to connect Disklaviers to digital or hybrid pianos as well. It is not necessary for both the student and the teacher to have the same instrument.

Regards,
PianoBench

Thank you George for a more thorough description of the teaching capabilities of the modern Disklavier.  I note that use of 3rd party software and an internet connection is essential for accomplishing these wonderful capabilities.

 It seems as if Yamaha is only providing the piano and the player mechanism these days.  If you actually want to use the new Disklavier, you must provide your own hardware separately, i.e. an Apple mobile device to control it, and a router connected to the internet along with a wireless connectivity adapter.  This is necessary to buy music because you can’t even play the Yamaha Music library you already own without extra hardware (a floppy drive).  MIDI CDs cannot play.  You would need to buy a computer and use 3rd party software to convert your Library to play thru the PC folder.

Further, to share a standard MIDI file with an older Disklavier that has been recorded to the thumb drive of the new Disklavier, requires additional hardware for the older model (DKC850 or a wireless Bluetooth adapter) as well as third party software.

The only software Yamaha provides is the EN app in the App store.  Disklavier Radio seems to be the only way to buy music.  

On the other hand, the new system is a lot cheaper to make because it does use 3rd party hardware and software. The hardware necessary to use the new system is not proprietary to Yamaha and therefore can be easily replaced. People with older Disklaviers complained about the cost of replacing the floppy drives and the CD drives, and the PRC controllers and hard drives of the Mark IV.  Now when something breaks, you can go to Best Buy to replace it. That is an advantage.

Although I don’t use them, those 3rd party teaching capabilities are a marvel.  It would be nice though,  to be able to use a portable floppy disk drive, or a portable CD drive to play my Yamaha Piano Soft library in the new Disklavier.

Carol Beigel

Dan,

Thanks for the post! I have the 1st  Wagon Grand in the U.S. and I have a Mark IV (which is now 2 generations old...)

I love them both. They continue to do everything I wanted them to do at the time of buying them.

The issue of placing digital technology in acoustic music instruments that last generations, poses a number of problems. Today's technology is old technology tomorrow.

Technology moves on and my Disklaviers keep playing! 

Bill Brandom


On Feb 16, 2017, at 10:49 AM, dano77vette@... [disklavier] <disklavier@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

We have had a C3 Wagon Disklavier that we purchased second hand over 14 years ago. We added a DSR1 about 12 years ago connecting it to a laptop computer.

In that time we have never had a failure or a problem. 

I have purchased Music Soft disks and convertered them to digital without difficulty.

I have collected thousands of playable midis from the interent,some of which are absolutely outstanding.

My wife  plays piano, I am a midi mechanic.We have had choir proactice with midis in our home.

To date I have not seen a new variation of Disklavier that surpasses what a computer and a Disklavier can produce. 

An outstanding instrument, wonderfully reliable electronics, tens of thousands of midis, and a community of supportive and active users.

Old TECH  is good too! &n bsp; LOL.

DanO

Thank you Carol for your concise overview and continued support of this very useful forum.

Sorry for the long response, yet I hope it’s useful.

I’ve been intrigued with the introduction of the CX series of grand pianos since Yamaha’s acquisition of Boosendorfer a few years back. The improvement in the soundboard, strings, hammers, and more are big improvements in the Yamaha line of acoustic pianos. If you haven’t had a chance to play one, try it out… it’s amazing!

While my 17yr old C5 MKIIxg +(DKC-850) has been a wonderful instrument and is played many times a week, it’s starting to show some signs of wear. The 850 unit has trouble reading some CDs (even when the unit is cleaned and the CDs new), it power-cycles often after just a few hours or use (kept in a well ventilated area), and sometimes scrambles songs that played perfectly just the day before.

Because I also enjoy the ability to record and play PRO (XP) files/songs, I’ve set my system up in the “add-on” configuration. However, even the old MKIIxg Pro head-unit is starting to mis-read floppy disks. This is 30yr old technology and shiny silver platters along with 3” floppy diskettes typically only last 15-20 years.

I think that the product team realized this and at the same time saw the future of music distribution through streaming services so popular now. That’s why I refer to the Enspire line as “Pandora Pianos”. I think this is where Yamaha made a miscalculation. Sure it’s fine for iTunes et al. to claim “throw away your old CDs and let us provide you with all the music you would ever need streamed to any device you own.” But we’re dealing with beautifully crafted acoustic pianos that are meant to last generations if well cared for, not the lasted MP3 player or iPhone.

Many of us have invested thousands of dollars and many hours in our extensive pianosoft libraries and if you own a lot of Smart Pianosoft and/or Pianosoft + Audio CDs, you’re SOL for the most part with these new pianos. While you can stream Midi and MP3 files to the Enspire, store some songs on a USB flash drive, and stream to your heart’s content from DK radio, you’re still left with your favorite music unplayable on the new Enspire.

The product team could have anticipated this (given the 10s of thousands of DKs still in the US market alone) and with some firmware and software built a backward compatibility path for current DK owners (not to dissimilar to what the DKC-850 provided). At the same time for owners who might want to upgrade to the CX piano line, they should have made it easy to move our libraries over to the new Enspire.

In speaking with the very helpful and nice tech support staff for the Disklavier line. They are trying to address some of these issues. One gentleman tested a DKC-850 as a front-end (midi into the Enspire unit) and was able to play Pianosoft +Audio and some Smart Pianosoft titles. While this might be a solution for those who already have the 850 and want to move up to the CX piano, it’s kind of a clunky solution. It’s inelegant, means you have to hang another box on an otherwise very streamlined new Enspire piano, and you still don’t get full stereo when playing back those CDs/combos. In addition you’re now using two different controller apps to run the 850 and the Enspire.

I believe that the 800 pound elephant in the room at DK product management is the dreaded DRM issue. I bet the legal staff is very concerned about digital rights management of all of the titles currently for sale or download from the Yamahamusicsoft store and converting over even one album at time to streaming requires a lot of work with artists, agents, publishers, and more. I’m guessing that the legal team isn’t too keen on Yam employees telling current or potential customers to just go ahead and convert all of your CDs (rip), floppies, and purchased midi files to a new format (.wav or .mp3) that you can put on your home server/NAS/USB hard drive or whatever is most convenient for customer to get their libraries to play on the Enspire. Thus streaming is an easy out and might actually appeal to Millennials who have never used a CD (except perhaps as a coffee coaster), sadly it leaves many loyal DK owners back in the past.

I wonder how inspiring the sales of the Enspire line have been this last 8 months for Yamaha. Are they missing an important revenue and customer loyalty opportunity?

Please take a moment and fill out the cool online survey Azornes has put together and posted here to give useful feedback to the Yamaha Disklavier team, won’t you?

https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/disklavier/conversations/messages/12903

KC