Disklavier

With regard to the reponse that high velocity values can be damaging to the
Disklavier piano actions:  can Yamaha incorporate a 'limiter' into the next
firmware release that prevents the piano from playing (on the keyboard) a
value that is above the limit determined to be acceptable to Yamaha?  IT
should be rather straigthforward I would think, and would prevent an
unknowing owner from causing damage.

Thoughts?

Denis Stypulkoski

________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

   Date: Fri, 15 Nov 2002 21:40:08 -0500

   From: "Carol Beigel" <carolrpt@...>
Subject: Re: Playing downlaoding files

The highest MIDI velocity than can be played has a value of 128. Many MIDI
files downloaded from the internet were created on an electronic keyboard,
and yes this can be very damaging to your piano. I find the best range is
between 60 and 75.

Carol Beigel
crbrpt@...

>From: "thegorens" <goren@...>
>Reply-To: disklavier@yahoogroups.com
>To: disklavier@yahoogroups.com
>Subject: [disklavier] Playing downlaoding files
>Date: Fri, 15 Nov 2002 20:29:18 -0000
>
>Most of the MIDI files that I download off the internet bang the keys
>of the piano very hard when I play them on the Disklavier.  Does
>anyone have any suggestions for how to optimize MIDI files for a
>Disklavier?  Can it be damaging to the piano to play files off the
>internet that cause the keys of the Disklavier to be pressed too
>hardly?
>
>Rob
>


_________________________________________________________________
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In fact, the Yamaha Disklavier (DC3 Mark II) does incorporate a limiter. 
  With the volume control set at 0, the hammer velocity increases with 
increasing note-on velocity until a note-on velocity of 90 is reached. 
The sound output (and presumably the hammer velocity) is identical for 
all note-on velocities in the range of 90 through 127.  At other 
settings of the DKV's volume control, no note is ever driven harder than 
it would be at volume 0 and note-on velocity 90.

It is possible, although not too easy, for a pianist to record notes on 
a DKV with note-on velocities exceeding 100.  However, those notes will 
be reproduced as though they were of a note-on velocity of 90.

I'm not aware of damage others may have experienced due to high velocity 
MIDI files.  A too loud MIDI file sends me sprinting to the volume 
control and I've never had a string or escapement part break. Your good 
sense tells you to first play an unknown MIDI file at a low volume 
setting.  You can't hurt your DKV if you do that.

Denis Stypulkoski wrote:
> With regard to the reponse that high velocity values can be damaging to the
> Disklavier piano actions:  can Yamaha incorporate a 'limiter' into the next
> firmware release that prevents the piano from playing (on the keyboard) a
> value that is above the limit determined to be acceptable to Yamaha?  IT
> should be rather straigthforward I would think, and would prevent an
> unknowing owner from causing damage.
> 
> Thoughts?
> 
> Denis Stypulkoski
> 
> ________________________________________________________________________
> ________________________________________________________________________
> 
>    Date: Fri, 15 Nov 2002 21:40:08 -0500
>    From: "Carol Beigel" <carolrpt@...>
> Subject: Re: Playing downlaoding files
> 
> The highest MIDI velocity than can be played has a value of 128. Many MIDI
> files downloaded from the internet were created on an electronic keyboard,
> and yes this can be very damaging to your piano. I find the best range is
> between 60 and 75.
> 
> Carol Beigel
> crbrpt@...
> 
> 
>>From: "thegorens" <goren@...>
>>Reply-To: disklavier@yahoogroups.com
>>To: disklavier@yahoogroups.com
>>Subject: [disklavier] Playing downlaoding files
>>Date: Fri, 15 Nov 2002 20:29:18 -0000
>>
>>Most of the MIDI files that I download off the internet bang the keys
>>of the piano very hard when I play them on the Disklavier.  Does
>>anyone have any suggestions for how to optimize MIDI files for a
>>Disklavier?  Can it be damaging to the piano to play files off the
>>internet that cause the keys of the Disklavier to be pressed too
>>hardly?
>>
>>Rob
>>
> 
> 
> 
> _________________________________________________________________
> MSN 8 helps eliminate e-mail viruses. Get 2 months FREE*.
> http://join.msn.com/?page=features/virus
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> To Post a message to the group, send it to:   disklavier@...
> 
> To Post a private message to Todd Muncy, the group's founder and moderator, send it to:
> disklavier-owner@...
> 
> To reach our group's web site go to:
> http://Yahoogroups.com/group/disklavier
> 
> Todd's family web site was completely rewritten in June 2001 and contains some fun disklavier content and links to midi sites among other things, The url is:
> http://MuncyFamily.com
> 
> THINKING OF LEAVING THE GROUP?
> If you are thinking of unsubcribing because you are getting too much mail, go the the web site and change your email delivery option instead.  That will fix the problem, while maintaining your access to the group.  If you insist on leaving us completely send a blank email to:
> disklavier-unsubscribe@...
> 
> Know someone who wants to join?  Have them send a blank email to:
> disklavier-subscribe@... or give them this link:
> http://Yahoogroups.com/group/disklavier/join
>  
> 
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ 
> 
> 
> 


-- 
Robert Welcyng
Anchorage, Alaska

In truth the volume on a DKV is a voltage limiter and not a volume control 
like on a stereo.  The exception is the volume that comes thru the speakers 
on the MarkIII, or thru the Silent Mode, which is audio anyway.

This is not a Yamaha problem.  MIDI is a set of standards and the Disklavier 
is a MIDI player.  So is PianoDisc and the QRS Pianomation system.  All 
modern day electronic player pianos are driven by solenoids placed under the 
back of the keys.  There must be a minimum voltage be make these solenoids 
fire. Choking this voltage tends to make the system overheat. Piano actions 
are mechanically driven, so the voltage pulsing through the solenoid 
ultimately determines how hard the key is activated.

A MIDI velocity value has no friction taken into the calculation.  It is an 
electronic measurement translated into data that plays your piano.  Buying 
PianoSoft, PianoDisc or QRS music for your player piano guarantees that this 
data is safe to play on your DKV.  The velocity data on these disks is 
between 64(QRS) and 100 (Yamaha).  Therefore, Yamaha has already built 
controls into this system if you buy their music or record your own on your 
Disklavier.

As a piano owner, you are responsible for the data you download off the 
internet to put into your piano.  No piano manufacturer could possibly have 
control over data generated by a teenager with an electronic keyboard!  Use 
the veloset program to make sure none of the numbers goes over 90.

Carol Beigel
crbrpt@...

>From: "Denis Stypulkoski" <dstyp@...>
>Reply-To: disklavier@yahoogroups.com
>To: <disklavier@yahoogroups.com>
>Subject: [disklavier] Piano Part Velocity Recommendation
>Date: Sat, 16 Nov 2002 11:05:13 -0500
>
>With regard to the reponse that high velocity values can be damaging to the
>Disklavier piano actions:  can Yamaha incorporate a 'limiter' into the next
>firmware release that prevents the piano from playing (on the keyboard) a
>value that is above the limit determined to be acceptable to Yamaha?  IT
>should be rather straigthforward I would think, and would prevent an
>unknowing owner from causing damage.
>
>Thoughts?
>
>Denis Stypulkoski
>
>________________________________________________________________________
>________________________________________________________________________
>
>    Date: Fri, 15 Nov 2002 21:40:08 -0500
>    From: "Carol Beigel" <carolrpt@...>
>Subject: Re: Playing downlaoding files
>
>The highest MIDI velocity than can be played has a value of 128. Many MIDI
>files downloaded from the internet were created on an electronic keyboard,
>and yes this can be very damaging to your piano. I find the best range is
>between 60 and 75.
>
>Carol Beigel
>crbrpt@...
>
> >From: "thegorens" <goren@...>
> >Reply-To: disklavier@yahoogroups.com
> >To: disklavier@yahoogroups.com
> >Subject: [disklavier] Playing downlaoding files
> >Date: Fri, 15 Nov 2002 20:29:18 -0000
> >
> >Most of the MIDI files that I download off the internet bang the keys
> >of the piano very hard when I play them on the Disklavier.  Does
> >anyone have any suggestions for how to optimize MIDI files for a
> >Disklavier?  Can it be damaging to the piano to play files off the
> >internet that cause the keys of the Disklavier to be pressed too
> >hardly?
> >
> >Rob
> >
>
>
>_________________________________________________________________
>MSN 8 helps eliminate e-mail viruses. Get 2 months FREE*.
>http://join.msn.com/?page=features/virus
>
>
>
>


_________________________________________________________________
The new MSN 8: advanced junk mail protection and 2 months FREE* 
http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail

Yamaha's technique for driving the DKV solenoids to produce varying 
hammer velocities is surely not a critical issue to any of us users. 
However, for the record, hammer velocity is controlled not by varying 
the voltage applied to the solenoids, but by varying the time length of 
the pulse applied to the solenoid.

Here is Yamaha's explanation, verbatim, of what is going on in the 
Maintenance Mode when the keyboard is being calibrated:

"In Maintenance Mode - Keyboard
Measurement, each solenoid is energized
with a varying, but precise pulse width. The
actual hammer velocity is then measured and
stored in a matrix or table. The resultant table
is used when the Disklavier plays back a
song."


Carol Beigel wrote:
> In truth the volume on a DKV is a voltage limiter and not a volume control 
> like on a stereo.  The exception is the volume that comes thru the speakers 
> on the MarkIII, or thru the Silent Mode, which is audio anyway.
> 
> This is not a Yamaha problem.  MIDI is a set of standards and the Disklavier 
> is a MIDI player.  So is PianoDisc and the QRS Pianomation system.  All 
> modern day electronic player pianos are driven by solenoids placed under the 
> back of the keys.  There must be a minimum voltage be make these solenoids 
> fire. Choking this voltage tends to make the system overheat. Piano actions 
> are mechanically driven, so the voltage pulsing through the solenoid 
> ultimately determines how hard the key is activated.
> 
> A MIDI velocity value has no friction taken into the calculation.  It is an 
> electronic measurement translated into data that plays your piano.  Buying 
> PianoSoft, PianoDisc or QRS music for your player piano guarantees that this 
> data is safe to play on your DKV.  The velocity data on these disks is 
> between 64(QRS) and 100 (Yamaha).  Therefore, Yamaha has already built 
> controls into this system if you buy their music or record your own on your 
> Disklavier.
> 
> As a piano owner, you are responsible for the data you download off the 
> internet to put into your piano.  No piano manufacturer could possibly have 
> control over data generated by a teenager with an electronic keyboard!  Use 
> the veloset program to make sure none of the numbers goes over 90.
> 
> Carol Beigel
> crbrpt@...
> 
> 
>>From: "Denis Stypulkoski" <dstyp@...>
>>Reply-To: disklavier@yahoogroups.com
>>To: <disklavier@yahoogroups.com>
>>Subject: [disklavier] Piano Part Velocity Recommendation
>>Date: Sat, 16 Nov 2002 11:05:13 -0500
>>
>>With regard to the reponse that high velocity values can be damaging to the
>>Disklavier piano actions:  can Yamaha incorporate a 'limiter' into the next
>>firmware release that prevents the piano from playing (on the keyboard) a
>>value that is above the limit determined to be acceptable to Yamaha?  IT
>>should be rather straigthforward I would think, and would prevent an
>>unknowing owner from causing damage.
>>
>>Thoughts?
>>
>>Denis Stypulkoski
>>
>>________________________________________________________________________
>>________________________________________________________________________
>>
>>   Date: Fri, 15 Nov 2002 21:40:08 -0500
>>   From: "Carol Beigel" <carolrpt@...>
>>Subject: Re: Playing downlaoding files
>>
>>The highest MIDI velocity than can be played has a value of 128. Many MIDI
>>files downloaded from the internet were created on an electronic keyboard,
>>and yes this can be very damaging to your piano. I find the best range is
>>between 60 and 75.
>>
>>Carol Beigel
>>crbrpt@...
>>
>>
>>>From: "thegorens" <goren@...>
>>>Reply-To: disklavier@yahoogroups.com
>>>To: disklavier@yahoogroups.com
>>>Subject: [disklavier] Playing downlaoding files
>>>Date: Fri, 15 Nov 2002 20:29:18 -0000
>>>
>>>Most of the MIDI files that I download off the internet bang the keys
>>>of the piano very hard when I play them on the Disklavier.  Does
>>>anyone have any suggestions for how to optimize MIDI files for a
>>>Disklavier?  Can it be damaging to the piano to play files off the
>>>internet that cause the keys of the Disklavier to be pressed too
>>>hardly?
>>>
>>>Rob
>>>
>>
>>
>>_________________________________________________________________
>>MSN 8 helps eliminate e-mail viruses. Get 2 months FREE*.
>>http://join.msn.com/?page=features/virus
>>
>>
>>
>>
> 
> 
> 
> _________________________________________________________________
> The new MSN 8: advanced junk mail protection and 2 months FREE* 
> http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail
> 
> 
> To Post a message to the group, send it to:   disklavier@...
> 
> To Post a private message to Todd Muncy, the group's founder and moderator, send it to:
> disklavier-owner@...
> 
> To reach our group's web site go to:
> http://Yahoogroups.com/group/disklavier
> 
> Todd's family web site was completely rewritten in June 2001 and contains some fun disklavier content and links to midi sites among other things, The url is:
> http://MuncyFamily.com
> 
> THINKING OF LEAVING THE GROUP?
> If you are thinking of unsubcribing because you are getting too much mail, go the the web site and change your email delivery option instead.  That will fix the problem, while maintaining your access to the group.  If you insist on leaving us completely send a blank email to:
> disklavier-unsubscribe@...
> 
> Know someone who wants to join?  Have them send a blank email to:
> disklavier-subscribe@... or give them this link:
> http://Yahoogroups.com/group/disklavier/join
>  
> 
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ 
> 
> 
> 


-- 
Robert Welcyng
Anchorage, Alaska

The adjustments used in Maintenance Mode are mostly used to manually set the 
minimum amount of enery required to play each note as quietly as possible.  
Each note requires a varying amount of energy to overcome the friction 
necessary to make the note play at all.  Once this friction is overcome and 
the hammer is on its way to hitting the string, all bets are off as to how 
fast it is traveling.  That is why this calibration is done by sitting at 
the piano and listening to it play. The ppp value is adjusted so the note 
plays as quietly as possible.  That minimum determines how softly your piano 
will play at the lowest setting of the volume control knob.

For many DKV owners, this still makes the piano play too loudly.  That is 
when we start looking at the MIDI data in the music and lowering the value 
of the velocity on the tracks that play the piano. Remember that the 
velocity value in MIDI is only a number that does not take into 
consideration how much energy is required to overcome the friction in a 
mechanical piano action. For those DKV owners who have electronic pianos, 
like the Grand Touch series, this is not a problem as you can just keep 
turning down the volume on the tone generator.  Same thing on a MarkIII 
using Piano Part = out and turning on the Silent Mode without using the 
headphones.

The main thing to remember is that electricty can play your piano with more 
force than your fingers.  When your piano plays louder than you can play it, 
there is risk of damage to the piano action over time.

Carol Beigel
crbrpt@...


>From: Robert Welcyng <rwelcyng@...>
>Reply-To: disklavier@yahoogroups.com
>To: disklavier@yahoogroups.com
>Subject: Re: [disklavier] Piano Part Velocity Recommendation
>Date: Sat, 16 Nov 2002 21:24:45 -0900
>
>Yamaha's technique for driving the DKV solenoids to produce varying
>hammer velocities is surely not a critical issue to any of us users.
>However, for the record, hammer velocity is controlled not by varying
>the voltage applied to the solenoids, but by varying the time length of
>the pulse applied to the solenoid.
>
>Here is Yamaha's explanation, verbatim, of what is going on in the
>Maintenance Mode when the keyboard is being calibrated:
>
>"In Maintenance Mode - Keyboard
>Measurement, each solenoid is energized
>with a varying, but precise pulse width. The
>actual hammer velocity is then measured and
>stored in a matrix or table. The resultant table
>is used when the Disklavier plays back a
>song."
>
>


_________________________________________________________________
MSN 8 helps eliminate e-mail viruses. Get 2 months FREE*. 
http://join.msn.com/?page=features/virus