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Question about midi out velocity

Question about midi out velocity

2003-03-07 by Dave Budde

I am using a DC5-pro interfacing to Logic Platinum on a computer.  When 
I send Midi data to the computer, I can only get velocity data between 
20 and 80 unless.  I can get to 100 if I really bang hard on the 
keyboard.  And no matter how lightly I touch the keyboard, I can't get 
a velocity below 20.  Midi should allow values between 0 and 127.  
Anyone have any idea how to get a wider velocity range out of this 
thing?

I've tried both XP mode and Enhanced mode and get the same result.  I 
have also tried changing the volume setting in the Midi Out parameter 
at both 50 and 127 and this doesn't seem to have any effect.  This I 
don't understand at all.

Thanks,

Dave

Re: [disklavier] Question about midi out velocity

2003-03-07 by Robert Welcyng

Dave, you have pretty well described what I have found on my DC3 Mark 
II: 20 to 100 is pretty much the practical range of velocity while 
recording.

Here's the story on reproduction:

On the Mark II with the Volume conrol set at zero, you cannot achieve 
any greater dynamic range than that resulting from a MIDI velocity range 
of about from 20 to 93.  Notes at velocities between 94 and 127 play no 
louder than those at 93.

To hear differences in sound output between, say, velocities 127 and 93, 
you may reduce the volume control to -5.  In that case, however, the 
note at velocity 127 will produce no greater sound output than the note 
  at velocity 93 while the DKV volume was set at 0.  In other words, 
that's the limit.

Dave Budde wrote:
> I am using a DC5-pro interfacing to Logic Platinum on a computer.  When 
> I send Midi data to the computer, I can only get velocity data between 
> 20 and 80 unless.  I can get to 100 if I really bang hard on the 
> keyboard.  And no matter how lightly I touch the keyboard, I can't get 
> a velocity below 20.  Midi should allow values between 0 and 127.  
> Anyone have any idea how to get a wider velocity range out of this 
> thing?
> 
> I've tried both XP mode and Enhanced mode and get the same result.  I 
> have also tried changing the volume setting in the Midi Out parameter 
> at both 50 and 127 and this doesn't seem to have any effect.  This I 
> don't understand at all.
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> Dave
> 
> 
> 
> To Post a message to the group, send it to:   disklavier@...
> 
> To Post a private message to Todd Muncy, the group's founder and moderator, send it to:
> disklavier-owner@...
> 
> To reach our group's web site go to:
> http://Yahoogroups.com/group/disklavier
> 
> Todd's family web site was completely updated 01/15/03.  It contains some fun disklavier content and links to midi sites among many other things, The url is:
> http://MuncyFamily.com 
> 
> THINKING OF LEAVING THE GROUP?
> If you are thinking of unsubcribing because you are getting too much mail, go the the web site and change your email delivery option instead.  That will fix the problem, while maintaining your access to the group.  If you insist on leaving us completely send a blank email to:
> disklavier-unsubscribe@... 
> 
> Know someone who wants to join?  Have them send a blank email to:
> disklavier-subscribe@... or give them this link:
> http://Yahoogroups.com/group/disklavier/join 
>  
> 
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ 
> 
> 
> 


-- 
Robert Welcyng
Anchorage, Alaska

Re: [disklavier] Question about midi out velocity

2003-03-08 by Carol Beigel

MIDI numbers of 1 to 128 are only valid for electronic generated data.  
Remember, a piano is a "mechanical" instrument with friction.  No matter how 
many sensors are in the keys and hammers, the actual velocity of the hammer 
hitting a piano string is not as accurately measureable as an 
electronic-only measurement of the key velocity. Also, there is probably a 
translation somewhere in the software to accommodate for the fact that it is 
a piano and not an electronic keyboard. I think that is why the default 
value of the Pianosoft music you buy for Disklaviers is automatically set to 
100.  I would hope that a fine piano action would NOT generate any value 
over 100!  If you really need numbers from 0 to 128, try an electronic 
keyboard.

Carol Beigel
crbrpt@...


>From: Dave Budde <dbudde@...>
>Reply-To: disklavier@yahoogroups.com
>To: disklavier@...
>Subject: [disklavier] Question about midi out velocity
>Date: Fri, 7 Mar 2003 11:01:39 -0800
>
>I am using a DC5-pro interfacing to Logic Platinum on a computer.  When
>I send Midi data to the computer, I can only get velocity data between
>20 and 80 unless.  I can get to 100 if I really bang hard on the
>keyboard.  And no matter how lightly I touch the keyboard, I can't get
>a velocity below 20.  Midi should allow values between 0 and 127.
>Anyone have any idea how to get a wider velocity range out of this
>thing?
>
>I've tried both XP mode and Enhanced mode and get the same result.  I
>have also tried changing the volume setting in the Midi Out parameter
>at both 50 and 127 and this doesn't seem to have any effect.  This I
>don't understand at all.
>
>Thanks,
>
>Dave
>


_________________________________________________________________
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Re: [disklavier] Question about midi out velocity

2003-03-08 by James Fry

On Sat, 8 Mar 2003, Carol Beigel wrote:
> MIDI numbers of 1 to 128 are only valid for electronic generated data.
> Remember, a piano is a "mechanical" instrument with friction.  No matter how
> many sensors are in the keys and hammers, the actual velocity of the hammer
> hitting a piano string is not as accurately measureable as an
> electronic-only measurement of the key velocity. Also, there is probably a
> translation somewhere in the software to accommodate for the fact that it is
> a piano and not an electronic keyboard. I think that is why the default
> value of the Pianosoft music you buy for Disklaviers is automatically set to
> 100.  I would hope that a fine piano action would NOT generate any value
> over 100!  If you really need numbers from 0 to 128, try an electronic
> keyboard.

I'm not sure that's quite the case - the way the hammer speed is measured
is basically exactly the same as how a digital keyboard measures the speed
of the key.

On the disklaviers there are beams that are broken and unbroken by the
hammers. Since the distance between the beams (on 4 position models) and
thickness of the hammer / shank is known, it's possible to calculate the
velocity from the length of time it took the hammer to travel between the
beams. I believe the extra sensor on each key is used to detect the
release of a note more than anything else, but it is feasable it is also
used in the velocity calculation. On the models with continuous position
sensing, things are obviously slightly different.

On a digital keyboard there are two contacts under each key very
close together and the time it takes for the two circuits to be made is
measured and velocity calculated in the same way as the hammers on a
disklavier.

I'd have thought the most important thing was to capture the performance
as accurately as possible. If the instrument currently can't play back
that accurately, so what - the chances are future instruments will be able
to.

If Yamaha are limiting the range of velocities output by the disklavier,
they are reducing the expressiveness of the instrument - the full scale
should be used, and then rescaling of the velocities used if necessary at
playback time. Midi is regularly criticised for its lack of controller
expressiveness; if the disklavier only handles velocities between 20 and
100 (about 60% of what MIDI is capable of) then no wonder a lot of people
don't like their performances being recorded on it.

I think playback on the disklavier is a different matter - the only way to
get more expression here is to use solenoids with faster response and more
power, which I beleive the Mark III Pro series of grands have.

Regards,

James

Re: [disklavier] Question about midi out velocity

2003-03-08 by Robert Welcyng

Carol,

The Disklavier manual's MIDI implementation chart indicates that the 
transmitted and recognized velocity range is for Note On is "1-127" and 
"0" for Note Off.  Further, protective limiting is built into the DKV so 
that with the volume control set at maximum, 0 that is, a note of 
velocity 127 produces a hammer velocity no greater than that of a note 
of velocity 93.

Carol Beigel wrote:
> MIDI numbers of 1 to 128 are only valid for electronic generated data.  
> Remember, a piano is a "mechanical" instrument with friction.  No matter how 
> many sensors are in the keys and hammers, the actual velocity of the hammer 
> hitting a piano string is not as accurately measureable as an 
> electronic-only measurement of the key velocity. Also, there is probably a 
> translation somewhere in the software to accommodate for the fact that it is 
> a piano and not an electronic keyboard. I think that is why the default 
> value of the Pianosoft music you buy for Disklaviers is automatically set to 
> 100.  I would hope that a fine piano action would NOT generate any value 
> over 100!  If you really need numbers from 0 to 128, try an electronic 
> keyboard.
> 
> Carol Beigel
> crbrpt@...
> 
> 
> 
>>From: Dave Budde <dbudde@...>
>>Reply-To: disklavier@yahoogroups.com
>>To: disklavier@...
>>Subject: [disklavier] Question about midi out velocity
>>Date: Fri, 7 Mar 2003 11:01:39 -0800
>>
>>I am using a DC5-pro interfacing to Logic Platinum on a computer.  When
>>I send Midi data to the computer, I can only get velocity data between
>>20 and 80 unless.  I can get to 100 if I really bang hard on the
>>keyboard.  And no matter how lightly I touch the keyboard, I can't get
>>a velocity below 20.  Midi should allow values between 0 and 127.
>>Anyone have any idea how to get a wider velocity range out of this
>>thing?
>>
>>I've tried both XP mode and Enhanced mode and get the same result.  I
>>have also tried changing the volume setting in the Midi Out parameter
>>at both 50 and 127 and this doesn't seem to have any effect.  This I
>>don't understand at all.
>>
>>Thanks,
>>
>>Dave
>>
> 
> 
> 
> _________________________________________________________________
> MSN 8 with e-mail virus protection service: 2 months FREE*  
> http://join.msn.com/?page=features/virus
> 
> 
> To Post a message to the group, send it to:   disklavier@...
> 
> To Post a private message to Todd Muncy, the group's founder and moderator, send it to:
> disklavier-owner@...
> 
> To reach our group's web site go to:
> http://Yahoogroups.com/group/disklavier
> 
> Todd's family web site was completely updated 01/15/03.  It contains some fun disklavier content and links to midi sites among many other things, The url is:
> http://MuncyFamily.com 
> 
> THINKING OF LEAVING THE GROUP?
> If you are thinking of unsubcribing because you are getting too much mail, go the the web site and change your email delivery option instead.  That will fix the problem, while maintaining your access to the group.  If you insist on leaving us completely send a blank email to:
> disklavier-unsubscribe@... 
> 
> Know someone who wants to join?  Have them send a blank email to:
> disklavier-subscribe@... or give them this link:
> http://Yahoogroups.com/group/disklavier/join 
>  
> 
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ 
> 
> 
> 


-- 
Robert Welcyng
Anchorage, Alaska

Re: [disklavier] Question about midi out velocity

2003-03-08 by Carol Beigel

I probably should have explained a little more about the "escapement" 
mechanism of a piano action being different from just a laser shutter 
breaking a beam measuring  an electronic value.  An electronic key can 
measure all numbers, 0 to 128 for velocity.  All data recorded on an 
electronic keyboard with a tone generator that is well designed should 
record and playback as accurately as recorded.

Like you said, the DKV Pro duplicatesas close a possible, a piano 
performance.  This is different than an electronic keyboard performance.  
Why?

If you look at how a piano action is adjusted in slow motion, you would see 
that depressing a key moves a stick (jack) under a leather knuckle mounted 
on the piano hammer lever.  This in turn sends the piano hammer flying off 
toward the string.  However, the direct force of your finger upon a key is 
removed before the hammer hits the string!  This is called escapement, or in 
piano tech terms, let-off.  No matter how hard you hit a piano key, the 
total amount of the force is never sent directly to the strings.  Same 
principle works for how soft a piano note plays.  Because there is friction 
between the leather knuckle and the top of the jack, there will always be a 
certain amount of energy required to overcome this.

Hammer sensors and key sensors measure the travel of the piano you are 
recording on and generate a set of numbers.  Take those numbers and play a 
different piano, you are dealing with different amounts of friction and 
piano action adjustment.  Also, the position of the laser shutters on the 
hammers is BEFORE the hammer reaches let-off.  No matter what that number is 
it is overwritten by the mechanical let-off ajustment - which is usually set 
between 1/8 and 1/4 inches away from the string.

Bob is right in that a mechanical piano action plays as low as 20.  You 
certainly would not want it to play harder than 100 (and I think that is too 
loud)because the solenoids will pound the keys much harder than they are 
designed to be played. In other words, the dynamic range of a fine piano is 
not 0 to 128, but more like 20 to 100.  The velocity measurement in MIDI is 
not affected by friction of a leather knuckle or the escapement of the piano 
action.

This Disklavier Pro is the best thing out there for recording live piano 
performances.  That it will not record MIDI numbers between 0 and 20, and 
100 and 128 is really of no consequence.



Carol Beigel
crbrpt@...





>From: James Fry <linx@...>
>Reply-To: disklavier@yahoogroups.com
>To: disklavier@yahoogroups.com
>Subject: Re: [disklavier] Question about midi out velocity
>Date: Sat, 8 Mar 2003 14:41:16 +0000 (GMT)
>
>I'm not sure that's quite the case - the way the hammer speed is measured
>is basically exactly the same as how a digital keyboard measures the speed
>of the key.
>
>On the disklaviers there are beams that are broken and unbroken by the
>hammers. Since the distance between the beams (on 4 position models) and
>thickness of the hammer / shank is known, it's possible to calculate the
>velocity from the length of time it took the hammer to travel between the
>beams. I believe the extra sensor on each key is used to detect the
>release of a note more than anything else, but it is feasable it is also
>used in the velocity calculation. On the models with continuous position
>sensing, things are obviously slightly different.
>
>On a digital keyboard there are two contacts under each key very
>close together and the time it takes for the two circuits to be made is
>measured and velocity calculated in the same way as the hammers on a
>disklavier.
>
>I'd have thought the most important thing was to capture the performance
>as accurately as possible. If the instrument currently can't play back
>that accurately, so what - the chances are future instruments will be able
>to.
>
>If Yamaha are limiting the range of velocities output by the disklavier,
>they are reducing the expressiveness of the instrument - the full scale
>should be used, and then rescaling of the velocities used if necessary at
>playback time. Midi is regularly criticised for its lack of controller
>expressiveness; if the disklavier only handles velocities between 20 and
>100 (about 60% of what MIDI is capable of) then no wonder a lot of people
>don't like their performances being recorded on it.
>
>I think playback on the disklavier is a different matter - the only way to
>get more expression here is to use solenoids with faster response and more
>power, which I beleive the Mark III Pro series of grands have.
>
>Regards,
>
>James
>


_________________________________________________________________
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Re: [disklavier] Question about midi out velocity

2003-03-09 by James Fry

On Sat, 8 Mar 2003, Carol Beigel wrote:
> I probably should have explained a little more about the "escapement"
> mechanism of a piano action being different from just a laser shutter
> breaking a beam measuring  an electronic value.  An electronic key can
> measure all numbers, 0 to 128 for velocity.  All data recorded on an
> electronic keyboard with a tone generator that is well designed should
> record and playback as accurately as recorded.
> Hammer sensors and key sensors measure the travel of the piano you are
> recording on and generate a set of numbers.  Take those numbers and play a
> different piano, you are dealing with different amounts of friction and
> piano action adjustment.  Also, the position of the laser shutters on the
> hammers is BEFORE the hammer reaches let-off.  No matter what that number is
> it is overwritten by the mechanical let-off ajustment - which is usually set
> between 1/8 and 1/4 inches away from the string.

The escapement mechanism is largely irrelavent here though; what the
optical sensors measure is the speed that the hammer is flying into the
strings before it hits. Even if thats before "let-off" it is pretty darned
close to the final velocity of the hammer.

Anything recorded on one system and then played back on another is going
to sound system. This applies to cassettes, CD's, MP3's, samplers, digital
pianos, and pianos, but the piano should have compensation for that in the
electronics (essentially statistically normalising the data based on known
parameters of the device).

> Bob is right in that a mechanical piano action plays as low as 20.  You
> certainly would not want it to play harder than 100 (and I think that is too
> loud)because the solenoids will pound the keys much harder than they are
> designed to be played. In other words, the dynamic range of a fine piano is
> not 0 to 128, but more like 20 to 100.  The velocity measurement in MIDI is
> not affected by friction of a leather knuckle or the escapement of the piano
> action.

Sure, its a different way of measuring velocity than a digital
keyboard, but there is no reason at all that it could not (and it most
certainly _should_) output a full range of velocities in exactly the same
way.

What you are saying concerns me as I am about to buy a disklavier - I can
see what you are getting at, but the possible dynamic range of piano
should bear no resemblence to MIDI velocities.

If the piano limits MIDI velocities 20-100 in the way that you say, it is
significantly reducing the resolution of any recording and introducing
very significant quantisation errors. The human ear is a very sensitive
organ - try listening to 8bit digital audio (256 values) and 16 bit
digital audio such as CD (65,536 different values). Similarly, a pianist
can reproduce many more than the 80 different volume levels that you
suggest (and many more than the MIDI ideal of 127).

Ideally the output from the piano on the very, very, very quietest notes
should be MIDI velocity 1, and the very loudest you could possibly get out
of it should be 127. In an ideal world it wouldn't be stuck in 1983 and
7-bit MIDI values - we'd be using 14/16/24-bit velocities. Note velocities
are a continuous function, and MIDI velocities are discrete and are always
going to be an approximation, but you do a lot to reduce the inaccuracy.
Limiting to little over 6-bit resolution is a bad idea.

Your argument for playback is also confusing me - surely MIDI velocity 127
should be set to the loudest that the solenoids can play without damage
occuring, not 100, and MIDI velocity 1 should be set to the quietest
audible, rather than 20?

> This Disklavier Pro is the best thing out there for recording live piano
> performances.  That it will not record MIDI numbers between 0 and 20, and
> 100 and 128 is really of no consequence.

It is bordering on a tragedy because some of the subtleties will have been
lost which make the performance sound live. A friend owns a Yamaha P80
digital stage piano, and that is similar in that it wont output notes
below around 20 and above 100, which he finds extremely annoying when
trying to use it as a controller with Steinbergs "The Grand" etc. Perhaps
it is a design "feature" of Yamaha's ?

Regards,

James

Re: [disklavier] Question about midi out velocity

2003-03-09 by Carol Beigel

Well, I'll wade in here a little deeper and hope the alligators don't bite!  
I certainly don't want to discourage you from buying a Disklavier, but you 
need to realize in no uncertain terms, that there is a difference between 
using MIDI on an acoustic piano and using MIDI on a purely digital device.  
A MIDI rendition of a piano performance recorded and played on a real piano 
(Disklavier) will never have the same dynamic range of numeric values as a 
MIDI performance recorded and played on an electronic piano's digital tone 
generator.  To what extent this matters to the listener is a matter of 
personal preference.  Some people prefer to hear "live" piano music coming 
from real piano strings, and others might want to hear an infinite dynamic 
range coming off an electronic tone generator with a piano sound.  The nice 
thing about the Disklavier MarkIII pianos, is that you can have both on the 
same instrument!

MIDI is a communications standard that measures electronic data.  It is 
truly an amazing invention.  MIDI has been enhanced to the point of 
excellence in many electronic keyboards and synthesizers. Pianos, on the 
other hand, have not changed much in 300 years.  The sound you hear when 
listening to a piano comes from a string vibrating and enhanced by the 
soundboard.  The tone comes from the physical properties of the hammers, the 
construction of the rim, and the art of the pianist interacting with the 
mechanical properties of the piano action. MIDI data does not go "into the 
sound system" on a Disklavier, but a computer processor that sends data to 
solenoids that operate the keys.  Big difference when talking about the 
difference between velocity and volume!  MIDI data is unlike digital audio 
data (MP3, stereo, etc).  For instance, MIDI has no volume, but velocity.  
MIDI data indicates how fast the note is played, how hard, when it starts, 
when it stops,what note is played, what sound should be generated, etc. but 
never how loud.  That is an audio property.  Loudness on a piano is 
determined by how hard the hammer hits a string.  Let-off stops the forward 
force of the hammer travel before it even hits the string no matter how fast 
it is traveling.

In a Disklavier, the piano is the primary instrument, then the electronics 
are installed to give the measurements of what is happening.  Recording and 
Playback on a mechanical piano action (even in Silent Mode or electronic 
mode) will always be limited to the mechanics of the piano action regardless 
of what the numbers are in the electronic MIDI data.  Remember, the sound 
coming from a piano is an art of finesse - not an exact, always the same, 
electronically generated tone. One big difference is how soft, or not so 
soft, the different pianos play.  Many people feel that the Disklavier plays 
too loudly, even on the lowest setting.  If you play it through the tone 
generator in Silent Mode, you have unlimited dynamic range like you would on 
your stereo system.  A piano can never be played softer by the Disklavier 
than someone sitting at the keyboard.

A real piano action only tolerates a certain amount of "banging".  Any MIDI 
velocity over 100 for long periods of time will damage the piano action, 
wear out the parts and risk breaking the strings.

Think of the Disklavier as a fine acoustic piano with some MIDI capabilities 
- not a sound system!.  If you need exacting MIDI capabilities, perhaps a 
fine digital piano like the DGT7 with the Disklavier may be more 
appropriate.  Real acoustic pianos with mechanical piano actions will always 
defy being tuned, recorded and played "by the numbers".



Carol Beigel
crbrpt@...





>From: James Fry <linx@...>
>Reply-To: disklavier@yahoogroups.com
>To: disklavier@yahoogroups.com
>Subject: Re: [disklavier] Question about midi out velocity
>Date: Sun, 9 Mar 2003 02:56:56 +0000 (GMT)
>
........... snip

>The escapement mechanism is largely irrelavent here though; what the
>optical sensors measure is the speed that the hammer is flying into the
>strings before it hits. Even if thats before "let-off" it is pretty darned
>close to the final velocity of the hammer.
>
>Anything recorded on one system and then played back on another is going
>to sound system. This applies to cassettes, CD's, MP3's, samplers, digital
>pianos, and pianos, but the piano should have compensation for that in the
>electronics (essentially statistically normalising the data based on known
>parameters of the device).
>
> > Bob is right in that a mechanical piano action plays as low as 20.  You
> > certainly would not want it to play harder than 100 (and I think that is 
>too
> > loud)because the solenoids will pound the keys much harder than they are
> > designed to be played. In other words, the dynamic range of a fine piano 
>is
> > not 0 to 128, but more like 20 to 100.  The velocity measurement in MIDI 
>is
> > not affected by friction of a leather knuckle or the escapement of the 
>piano
> > action.
>
>Sure, its a different way of measuring velocity than a digital
>keyboard, but there is no reason at all that it could not (and it most
>certainly _should_) output a full range of velocities in exactly the same
>way.
>
>What you are saying concerns me as I am about to buy a disklavier - I can
>see what you are getting at, but the possible dynamic range of piano
>should bear no resemblence to MIDI velocities.
>
>If the piano limits MIDI velocities 20-100 in the way that you say, it is
>significantly reducing the resolution of any recording and introducing
>very significant quantisation errors. The human ear is a very sensitive
>organ - try listening to 8bit digital audio (256 values) and 16 bit
>digital audio such as CD (65,536 different values). Similarly, a pianist
>can reproduce many more than the 80 different volume levels that you
>suggest (and many more than the MIDI ideal of 127).
>
>Ideally the output from the piano on the very, very, very quietest notes
>should be MIDI velocity 1, and the very loudest you could possibly get out
>of it should be 127. In an ideal world it wouldn't be stuck in 1983 and
>7-bit MIDI values - we'd be using 14/16/24-bit velocities. Note velocities
>are a continuous function, and MIDI velocities are discrete and are always
>going to be an approximation, but you do a lot to reduce the inaccuracy.
>Limiting to little over 6-bit resolution is a bad idea.
>
>Your argument for playback is also confusing me - surely MIDI velocity 127
>should be set to the loudest that the solenoids can play without damage
>occuring, not 100, and MIDI velocity 1 should be set to the quietest
>audible, rather than 20?
>
> > This Disklavier Pro is the best thing out there for recording live piano
> > performances.  That it will not record MIDI numbers between 0 and 20, 
>and
> > 100 and 128 is really of no consequence.
>
>It is bordering on a tragedy because some of the subtleties will have been
>lost which make the performance sound live. A friend owns a Yamaha P80
>digital stage piano, and that is similar in that it wont output notes
>below around 20 and above 100, which he finds extremely annoying when
>trying to use it as a controller with Steinbergs "The Grand" etc. Perhaps
>it is a design "feature" of Yamaha's ?
>
>Regards,
>
>James
>


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Re: [disklavier] Question about midi out velocity

2003-03-10 by Robert Welcyng

James,

If you are considering buying a DKV, my suggestion would be to spend 
some time in a dealer's showroom.  Sit down and play one (or a have a 
pianist friend play it) and evaluate by ear how well it reproduces the 
original performance.  Try listening to some PianoSoft diskettes with 
full dynamic range and decide if you like what you hear.  Try a 
GranTouch, as well.

Acoustic measurements that I have made reveal that my Mark II does not 
perfectly reproduce what was played.  You can also check 
www.iua.upf.es/mtg/mosart/papers/p35.pdf for a university paper which 
discusses the DKV's limits of accuracy.  However, despite those 
limitations, I, and I'm sure many other others, are more than pleased 
with their instrument.

While examining specs and pondering their effect is certainly 
appropriate for anyone to do, the question really comes down to how much 
the shortcomings are going to interfere with one's use and enjoyment of 
the instrument.  You could set down ideal specifications for a 
reproducing piano, but, given the few brands available to choose from, 
what can you do if none fully satisfies your demands?

Finally, recognize that recordings made on DKVs are the ideal 
performances for playing on DKVs.  Expect to have to make adjustments to 
files that were recorded from other sources that had different 
characteristics from a DKV.  Some files, such as you find on the Net can 
be made to play well, and others are horrid--worth exactly what you paid 
for them.



James Fry wrote:
> On Sat, 8 Mar 2003, Carol Beigel wrote:
> 
>>I probably should have explained a little more about the "escapement"
>>mechanism of a piano action being different from just a laser shutter
>>breaking a beam measuring  an electronic value.  An electronic key can
>>measure all numbers, 0 to 128 for velocity.  All data recorded on an
>>electronic keyboard with a tone generator that is well designed should
>>record and playback as accurately as recorded.
>>Hammer sensors and key sensors measure the travel of the piano you are
>>recording on and generate a set of numbers.  Take those numbers and play a
>>different piano, you are dealing with different amounts of friction and
>>piano action adjustment.  Also, the position of the laser shutters on the
>>hammers is BEFORE the hammer reaches let-off.  No matter what that number is
>>it is overwritten by the mechanical let-off ajustment - which is usually set
>>between 1/8 and 1/4 inches away from the string.
> 
> 
> The escapement mechanism is largely irrelavent here though; what the
> optical sensors measure is the speed that the hammer is flying into the
> strings before it hits. Even if thats before "let-off" it is pretty darned
> close to the final velocity of the hammer.
> 
> Anything recorded on one system and then played back on another is going
> to sound system. This applies to cassettes, CD's, MP3's, samplers, digital
> pianos, and pianos, but the piano should have compensation for that in the
> electronics (essentially statistically normalising the data based on known
> parameters of the device).
> 
> 
>>Bob is right in that a mechanical piano action plays as low as 20.  You
>>certainly would not want it to play harder than 100 (and I think that is too
>>loud)because the solenoids will pound the keys much harder than they are
>>designed to be played. In other words, the dynamic range of a fine piano is
>>not 0 to 128, but more like 20 to 100.  The velocity measurement in MIDI is
>>not affected by friction of a leather knuckle or the escapement of the piano
>>action.
> 
> 
> Sure, its a different way of measuring velocity than a digital
> keyboard, but there is no reason at all that it could not (and it most
> certainly _should_) output a full range of velocities in exactly the same
> way.
> 
> What you are saying concerns me as I am about to buy a disklavier - I can
> see what you are getting at, but the possible dynamic range of piano
> should bear no resemblence to MIDI velocities.
> 
> If the piano limits MIDI velocities 20-100 in the way that you say, it is
> significantly reducing the resolution of any recording and introducing
> very significant quantisation errors. The human ear is a very sensitive
> organ - try listening to 8bit digital audio (256 values) and 16 bit
> digital audio such as CD (65,536 different values). Similarly, a pianist
> can reproduce many more than the 80 different volume levels that you
> suggest (and many more than the MIDI ideal of 127).
> 
> Ideally the output from the piano on the very, very, very quietest notes
> should be MIDI velocity 1, and the very loudest you could possibly get out
> of it should be 127. In an ideal world it wouldn't be stuck in 1983 and
> 7-bit MIDI values - we'd be using 14/16/24-bit velocities. Note velocities
> are a continuous function, and MIDI velocities are discrete and are always
> going to be an approximation, but you do a lot to reduce the inaccuracy.
> Limiting to little over 6-bit resolution is a bad idea.
> 
> Your argument for playback is also confusing me - surely MIDI velocity 127
> should be set to the loudest that the solenoids can play without damage
> occuring, not 100, and MIDI velocity 1 should be set to the quietest
> audible, rather than 20?
> 
> 
>>This Disklavier Pro is the best thing out there for recording live piano
>>performances.  That it will not record MIDI numbers between 0 and 20, and
>>100 and 128 is really of no consequence.
> 
> 
> It is bordering on a tragedy because some of the subtleties will have been
> lost which make the performance sound live. A friend owns a Yamaha P80
> digital stage piano, and that is similar in that it wont output notes
> below around 20 and above 100, which he finds extremely annoying when
> trying to use it as a controller with Steinbergs "The Grand" etc. Perhaps
> it is a design "feature" of Yamaha's ?
> 
> Regards,
> 
> James
> 
> 
> To Post a message to the group, send it to:   disklavier@...
> 
> To Post a private message to Todd Muncy, the group's founder and moderator, send it to:
> disklavier-owner@...
> 
> To reach our group's web site go to:
> http://Yahoogroups.com/group/disklavier
> 
> Todd's family web site was completely updated 01/15/03.  It contains some fun disklavier content and links to midi sites among many other things, The url is:
> http://MuncyFamily.com 
> 
> THINKING OF LEAVING THE GROUP?
> If you are thinking of unsubcribing because you are getting too much mail, go the the web site and change your email delivery option instead.  That will fix the problem, while maintaining your access to the group.  If you insist on leaving us completely send a blank email to:
> disklavier-unsubscribe@... 
> 
> Know someone who wants to join?  Have them send a blank email to:
> disklavier-subscribe@... or give them this link:
> http://Yahoogroups.com/group/disklavier/join 
>  
> 
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ 
> 
> 
> 


-- 
Robert Welcyng
Anchorage, Alaska

Re: [disklavier] Question about midi out velocity

2003-03-10 by Robert Welcyng

The URL I provided below seems to be dead.  Here is an alternative URL 
for the same report.

http://ftp.ai.univie.ac.at/papers/oefai-tr-2001-27.pdf

Bob Welcyng

Robert Welcyng wrote:
> James,
> 
> If you are considering buying a DKV, my suggestion would be to spend 
> some time in a dealer's showroom.  Sit down and play one (or a have a 
> pianist friend play it) and evaluate by ear how well it reproduces the 
> original performance.  Try listening to some PianoSoft diskettes with 
> full dynamic range and decide if you like what you hear.  Try a 
> GranTouch, as well.
> 
> Acoustic measurements that I have made reveal that my Mark II does not 
> perfectly reproduce what was played.  You can also check 
> www.iua.upf.es/mtg/mosart/papers/p35.pdf for a university paper which 
> discusses the DKV's limits of accuracy.  However, despite those 
> limitations, I, and I'm sure many other others, are more than pleased 
> with their instrument.
> 
> While examining specs and pondering their effect is certainly 
> appropriate for anyone to do, the question really comes down to how much 
> the shortcomings are going to interfere with one's use and enjoyment of 
> the instrument.  You could set down ideal specifications for a 
> reproducing piano, but, given the few brands available to choose from, 
> what can you do if none fully satisfies your demands?
> 
> Finally, recognize that recordings made on DKVs are the ideal 
> performances for playing on DKVs.  Expect to have to make adjustments to 
> files that were recorded from other sources that had different 
> characteristics from a DKV.  Some files, such as you find on the Net can 
> be made to play well, and others are horrid--worth exactly what you paid 
> for them.
> 
> 
> 
> James Fry wrote:
> 
>>On Sat, 8 Mar 2003, Carol Beigel wrote:
>>
>>
>>>I probably should have explained a little more about the "escapement"
>>>mechanism of a piano action being different from just a laser shutter
>>>breaking a beam measuring  an electronic value.  An electronic key can
>>>measure all numbers, 0 to 128 for velocity.  All data recorded on an
>>>electronic keyboard with a tone generator that is well designed should
>>>record and playback as accurately as recorded.
>>>Hammer sensors and key sensors measure the travel of the piano you are
>>>recording on and generate a set of numbers.  Take those numbers and play a
>>>different piano, you are dealing with different amounts of friction and
>>>piano action adjustment.  Also, the position of the laser shutters on the
>>>hammers is BEFORE the hammer reaches let-off.  No matter what that number is
>>>it is overwritten by the mechanical let-off ajustment - which is usually set
>>>between 1/8 and 1/4 inches away from the string.
>>
>>
>>The escapement mechanism is largely irrelavent here though; what the
>>optical sensors measure is the speed that the hammer is flying into the
>>strings before it hits. Even if thats before "let-off" it is pretty darned
>>close to the final velocity of the hammer.
>>
>>Anything recorded on one system and then played back on another is going
>>to sound system. This applies to cassettes, CD's, MP3's, samplers, digital
>>pianos, and pianos, but the piano should have compensation for that in the
>>electronics (essentially statistically normalising the data based on known
>>parameters of the device).
>>
>>
>>
>>>Bob is right in that a mechanical piano action plays as low as 20.  You
>>>certainly would not want it to play harder than 100 (and I think that is too
>>>loud)because the solenoids will pound the keys much harder than they are
>>>designed to be played. In other words, the dynamic range of a fine piano is
>>>not 0 to 128, but more like 20 to 100.  The velocity measurement in MIDI is
>>>not affected by friction of a leather knuckle or the escapement of the piano
>>>action.
>>
>>
>>Sure, its a different way of measuring velocity than a digital
>>keyboard, but there is no reason at all that it could not (and it most
>>certainly _should_) output a full range of velocities in exactly the same
>>way.
>>
>>What you are saying concerns me as I am about to buy a disklavier - I can
>>see what you are getting at, but the possible dynamic range of piano
>>should bear no resemblence to MIDI velocities.
>>
>>If the piano limits MIDI velocities 20-100 in the way that you say, it is
>>significantly reducing the resolution of any recording and introducing
>>very significant quantisation errors. The human ear is a very sensitive
>>organ - try listening to 8bit digital audio (256 values) and 16 bit
>>digital audio such as CD (65,536 different values). Similarly, a pianist
>>can reproduce many more than the 80 different volume levels that you
>>suggest (and many more than the MIDI ideal of 127).
>>
>>Ideally the output from the piano on the very, very, very quietest notes
>>should be MIDI velocity 1, and the very loudest you could possibly get out
>>of it should be 127. In an ideal world it wouldn't be stuck in 1983 and
>>7-bit MIDI values - we'd be using 14/16/24-bit velocities. Note velocities
>>are a continuous function, and MIDI velocities are discrete and are always
>>going to be an approximation, but you do a lot to reduce the inaccuracy.
>>Limiting to little over 6-bit resolution is a bad idea.
>>
>>Your argument for playback is also confusing me - surely MIDI velocity 127
>>should be set to the loudest that the solenoids can play without damage
>>occuring, not 100, and MIDI velocity 1 should be set to the quietest
>>audible, rather than 20?
>>
>>
>>
>>>This Disklavier Pro is the best thing out there for recording live piano
>>>performances.  That it will not record MIDI numbers between 0 and 20, and
>>>100 and 128 is really of no consequence.
>>
>>
>>It is bordering on a tragedy because some of the subtleties will have been
>>lost which make the performance sound live. A friend owns a Yamaha P80
>>digital stage piano, and that is similar in that it wont output notes
>>below around 20 and above 100, which he finds extremely annoying when
>>trying to use it as a controller with Steinbergs "The Grand" etc. Perhaps
>>it is a design "feature" of Yamaha's ?
>>
>>Regards,
>>
>>James
>>
>>
>>To Post a message to the group, send it to:   disklavier@...
>>
>>To Post a private message to Todd Muncy, the group's founder and moderator, send it to:
>>disklavier-owner@...
>>
>>To reach our group's web site go to:
>>http://Yahoogroups.com/group/disklavier
>>
>>Todd's family web site was completely updated 01/15/03.  It contains some fun disklavier content and links to midi sites among many other things, The url is:
>>http://MuncyFamily.com 
>>
>>THINKING OF LEAVING THE GROUP?
>>If you are thinking of unsubcribing because you are getting too much mail, go the the web site and change your email delivery option instead.  That will fix the problem, while maintaining your access to the group.  If you insist on leaving us completely send a blank email to:
>>disklavier-unsubscribe@... 
>>
>>Know someone who wants to join?  Have them send a blank email to:
>>disklavier-subscribe@... or give them this link:
>>http://Yahoogroups.com/group/disklavier/join 
>> 
>>
>>Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ 
>>
>>
>>
> 
> 
> 


-- 
Robert Welcyng
Anchorage, Alaska

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