Disklavier

Well, I'll wade in here a little deeper and hope the alligators don't bite!  
I certainly don't want to discourage you from buying a Disklavier, but you 
need to realize in no uncertain terms, that there is a difference between 
using MIDI on an acoustic piano and using MIDI on a purely digital device.  
A MIDI rendition of a piano performance recorded and played on a real piano 
(Disklavier) will never have the same dynamic range of numeric values as a 
MIDI performance recorded and played on an electronic piano's digital tone 
generator.  To what extent this matters to the listener is a matter of 
personal preference.  Some people prefer to hear "live" piano music coming 
from real piano strings, and others might want to hear an infinite dynamic 
range coming off an electronic tone generator with a piano sound.  The nice 
thing about the Disklavier MarkIII pianos, is that you can have both on the 
same instrument!

MIDI is a communications standard that measures electronic data.  It is 
truly an amazing invention.  MIDI has been enhanced to the point of 
excellence in many electronic keyboards and synthesizers. Pianos, on the 
other hand, have not changed much in 300 years.  The sound you hear when 
listening to a piano comes from a string vibrating and enhanced by the 
soundboard.  The tone comes from the physical properties of the hammers, the 
construction of the rim, and the art of the pianist interacting with the 
mechanical properties of the piano action. MIDI data does not go "into the 
sound system" on a Disklavier, but a computer processor that sends data to 
solenoids that operate the keys.  Big difference when talking about the 
difference between velocity and volume!  MIDI data is unlike digital audio 
data (MP3, stereo, etc).  For instance, MIDI has no volume, but velocity.  
MIDI data indicates how fast the note is played, how hard, when it starts, 
when it stops,what note is played, what sound should be generated, etc. but 
never how loud.  That is an audio property.  Loudness on a piano is 
determined by how hard the hammer hits a string.  Let-off stops the forward 
force of the hammer travel before it even hits the string no matter how fast 
it is traveling.

In a Disklavier, the piano is the primary instrument, then the electronics 
are installed to give the measurements of what is happening.  Recording and 
Playback on a mechanical piano action (even in Silent Mode or electronic 
mode) will always be limited to the mechanics of the piano action regardless 
of what the numbers are in the electronic MIDI data.  Remember, the sound 
coming from a piano is an art of finesse - not an exact, always the same, 
electronically generated tone. One big difference is how soft, or not so 
soft, the different pianos play.  Many people feel that the Disklavier plays 
too loudly, even on the lowest setting.  If you play it through the tone 
generator in Silent Mode, you have unlimited dynamic range like you would on 
your stereo system.  A piano can never be played softer by the Disklavier 
than someone sitting at the keyboard.

A real piano action only tolerates a certain amount of "banging".  Any MIDI 
velocity over 100 for long periods of time will damage the piano action, 
wear out the parts and risk breaking the strings.

Think of the Disklavier as a fine acoustic piano with some MIDI capabilities 
- not a sound system!.  If you need exacting MIDI capabilities, perhaps a 
fine digital piano like the DGT7 with the Disklavier may be more 
appropriate.  Real acoustic pianos with mechanical piano actions will always 
defy being tuned, recorded and played "by the numbers".



Carol Beigel
crbrpt@...





>From: James Fry <linx@...>
>Reply-To: disklavier@yahoogroups.com
>To: disklavier@yahoogroups.com
>Subject: Re: [disklavier] Question about midi out velocity
>Date: Sun, 9 Mar 2003 02:56:56 +0000 (GMT)
>
........... snip

>The escapement mechanism is largely irrelavent here though; what the
>optical sensors measure is the speed that the hammer is flying into the
>strings before it hits. Even if thats before "let-off" it is pretty darned
>close to the final velocity of the hammer.
>
>Anything recorded on one system and then played back on another is going
>to sound system. This applies to cassettes, CD's, MP3's, samplers, digital
>pianos, and pianos, but the piano should have compensation for that in the
>electronics (essentially statistically normalising the data based on known
>parameters of the device).
>
> > Bob is right in that a mechanical piano action plays as low as 20.  You
> > certainly would not want it to play harder than 100 (and I think that is 
>too
> > loud)because the solenoids will pound the keys much harder than they are
> > designed to be played. In other words, the dynamic range of a fine piano 
>is
> > not 0 to 128, but more like 20 to 100.  The velocity measurement in MIDI 
>is
> > not affected by friction of a leather knuckle or the escapement of the 
>piano
> > action.
>
>Sure, its a different way of measuring velocity than a digital
>keyboard, but there is no reason at all that it could not (and it most
>certainly _should_) output a full range of velocities in exactly the same
>way.
>
>What you are saying concerns me as I am about to buy a disklavier - I can
>see what you are getting at, but the possible dynamic range of piano
>should bear no resemblence to MIDI velocities.
>
>If the piano limits MIDI velocities 20-100 in the way that you say, it is
>significantly reducing the resolution of any recording and introducing
>very significant quantisation errors. The human ear is a very sensitive
>organ - try listening to 8bit digital audio (256 values) and 16 bit
>digital audio such as CD (65,536 different values). Similarly, a pianist
>can reproduce many more than the 80 different volume levels that you
>suggest (and many more than the MIDI ideal of 127).
>
>Ideally the output from the piano on the very, very, very quietest notes
>should be MIDI velocity 1, and the very loudest you could possibly get out
>of it should be 127. In an ideal world it wouldn't be stuck in 1983 and
>7-bit MIDI values - we'd be using 14/16/24-bit velocities. Note velocities
>are a continuous function, and MIDI velocities are discrete and are always
>going to be an approximation, but you do a lot to reduce the inaccuracy.
>Limiting to little over 6-bit resolution is a bad idea.
>
>Your argument for playback is also confusing me - surely MIDI velocity 127
>should be set to the loudest that the solenoids can play without damage
>occuring, not 100, and MIDI velocity 1 should be set to the quietest
>audible, rather than 20?
>
> > This Disklavier Pro is the best thing out there for recording live piano
> > performances.  That it will not record MIDI numbers between 0 and 20, 
>and
> > 100 and 128 is really of no consequence.
>
>It is bordering on a tragedy because some of the subtleties will have been
>lost which make the performance sound live. A friend owns a Yamaha P80
>digital stage piano, and that is similar in that it wont output notes
>below around 20 and above 100, which he finds extremely annoying when
>trying to use it as a controller with Steinbergs "The Grand" etc. Perhaps
>it is a design "feature" of Yamaha's ?
>
>Regards,
>
>James
>


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