Disklavier

Help!  I'm new to the group, and started researching messages from 
the beginning to resolve my problem.  I purchased a disklavier grand 
with control cart in 1991.  I would love to be able to download new 
music and upload some files as well, but working with Windows XP, it 
seems impossible to format my 2DD disks correctly.  Windows will not 
let me format a 2DD disk.  If I format the disk on the disklavier's 
control cart drive, my computer won't read it or let me transfer 
files to it without reformatting.  Obviously, Yamaha has overcome 
this problem with their free downloads from their site.  I'm able to 
download on a 2DD disk, convert it with the control unit, and play it 
on the piano.

Someone must have encountered and solved these issues in the past?  
I'm fairly computer literate, but I can't seem to see through this 
problem!

Thanks!

Jim Ross
jwross@...

First, the software to do this, although legal, has dubious 
overtones (i.e. it allows duplication of the original Yamaha disks, 
which they're obviously very touchy about).  For this reason, there 
aren't many programs about that work, and Yamaha are certainly not 
going to help anyone write more! 

The only FREE ones that work properly are the utilities that you can 
download from here, and because they bugger about with the PC 
internally (you're not supposed to be able to write DD disks), they 
are written for DOS.  Hence, they don't work at all under XP.  

The easiest way is to use a computer with Windows 95 or 98 on it 
(unless of course you still have a DOS PC around!).  They work fine 
on these.

Failing that, you have to consider whether you really want/need the 
files on floppy at all.  Many users on this site have found that 
controlling the piano directly from a PC is so much more flexible 
(me included, and I was very much against the idea to start with).

Regards


Charles

On Tue, 12 Aug 2003, tillsbury2000 wrote:
> The only FREE ones that work properly are the utilities that you can
> download from here, and because they bugger about with the PC
> internally (you're not supposed to be able to write DD disks), they
> are written for DOS.  Hence, they don't work at all under XP.

Hmm, thats not strictly true - there is no reason you shouldn't write DD
disks on modern PC's - the hardware allows it. Microsoft feel that you
shouldn't because it is such an old format now, hence why the default
options in XP don't allow it. The software for DOS for making backups /
accessing Disklavier files works by directly accessing the floppy drive
controller hardware rather than using Windows drivers, and as such can do
a lot of extra things. Windows versions based on NT (ie NT, 2K, XP, 2003)
don't allow you to access the hardware directly, so the program doesn't
work as it should.

<snip>

> Failing that, you have to consider whether you really want/need the
> files on floppy at all.  Many users on this site have found that
> controlling the piano directly from a PC is so much more flexible
> (me included, and I was very much against the idea to start with).

I've yet to try this properly - doesn't the disklavier have problems
predicting when to play each note if you play it over midi (hence the
500ms delay option)? Does the 500ms delay affect everything going into the
piano, ie the synthesiser sounds as well as the piano, or does it just
affect the normal piano ?

Cheers,

James

Your Disklavier only plays the Yamaha proprietary format ESEQ files from 
720k floppy disks. There is a free program in the files section called 
dkutil that will convert MIDI files to ESEQ format.  However, this old 
software ONLY runs in real DOS, not the virtual DOS that comes with Windows 
XP.  All PianoSoft files from Yamaha use this backwardly compatible ESEQ 
format.

You have two options for using the floppy drive.  Either purchase an older 
computer or laptop that runs Windows 98 or earlier, or upgrade to Yamaha's 
DSR1 control box that will also give you Ensemble sounds, uses HD disks, and 
can play MIDI files in either SMF1 or SMF0 without conversion, has a memory 
disk and uses flash memory to update the software.

Your Disklavier, however, should be able to play standard MIDI files from 
your XP laptop computer using playlist or jukebox software.  Any MIDI tracks 
allocated to Channels 1 or 2 will play the keys on the DKV.



Carol Beigel
crbrpt@...





>From: "jwross1" <jwross1@...>
>Reply-To: disklavier@yahoogroups.com
>To: disklavier@yahoogroups.com
>Subject: [disklavier] File downloads
>Date: Tue, 12 Aug 2003 07:24:33 -0000
>
>Help!  I'm new to the group, and started researching messages from
>the beginning to resolve my problem.  I purchased a disklavier grand
>with control cart in 1991.  I would love to be able to download new
>music and upload some files as well, but working with Windows XP, it
>seems impossible to format my 2DD disks correctly.  Windows will not
>let me format a 2DD disk.  If I format the disk on the disklavier's
>control cart drive, my computer won't read it or let me transfer
>files to it without reformatting.  Obviously, Yamaha has overcome
>this problem with their free downloads from their site.  I'm able to
>download on a 2DD disk, convert it with the control unit, and play it
>on the piano.
>
>Someone must have encountered and solved these issues in the past?
>I'm fairly computer literate, but I can't seem to see through this
>problem!
>
>Thanks!
>
>Jim Ross
>jwross@...
>

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Actually, Todd is correct mid2eseq and vice-a-verse work just fine in windows. Windows xp will format a 720 k floppy if you use the trick of using 1.4 MB floppies and tape over the open hole (not the locking hole) with non-transparent tape. The computer than thinks it is a 720k. YOU MUST BE Patient. It takes a long time for the computer to see this disk (most people give up and think it won't work). Once it sees the disk a popup window will appear and tell you that the disk is unformatted and ask you if you would like to format it. One of the options will be to format a 720k disk. Again, be patient it takes awhile. Good luck!


I realize that I am relatively new to all this, having just purchased my piano in July, but I have to say this. After going through what I have been through and after reading posts such as this, here\u2019s my comment.

Yamaha needs to get with it. This is 2003, not 1997.

For as much as we all pay for our pianos and for as much as we want to use them easily and without having to go through convoluted measures to do so, Yamaha does nothing but make all of this MUCH more difficult then it has to be.

First, as a Mac user since 1984, and as someone whose entire business is Mac-based, I finally gave in the towel and had to purchase a used Windows PC with Win 98 installed two weeks ago, simply so I could download files from the Yamaha website to play on my piano.

This is nothing short of ridiculous.

The company should have Mac-compatible software extractors available. This is a no-brainer.

In addition, the company\u2019s insistence on using its proprietary file method, which makes so many things that much more difficult, is also something that needs to be changed.

In terms of documentation, I find the ownerR17;s manual to be lacking, and have learned so much more of what I need to know here, than in there.

In terms of midi support, explanation, and set-up suggestions and comments, the support provided by the company is almost useless.

Again, only due to the wonderful information that you folks provide, have I been able to figure these things out. Or at least some of them. Still working on others....

I don\u2019t regret purchasing the piano at all. I love it. I have no complaints with the instrument at all.

But, I do regret that Yamaha seems to be dropping the ball here with us and our instruments on many levels. I think the company could market the disklavier brand, music, files, and entire experience in a much more positive, and certainly much more technologically exciting manner. Translation? It would make the ownership of a disklavier much more valuable, and it would be much more profitable to them as well.

-Holly Hegeman

I was unable to perform the "trick" - xp still says I'm formatting a 
1.44 mb floppy - there is no option to format a 720k floppy.  The 
computer sees the disk pretty fast in explore.  If the front side of 
the disk is taped, it will format 1.44mb. If the back side or both 
sides are taped, xp says the disk can't be formatted.  Next is to try 
using my lap-top (alas, also windows xp) to play the midi files into 
the midi-in of the cart.  I'm living in a small village in the south 
of France - any idea where to purchase a correct cable, or even the 
type of cable needed.

Thanks, group!

Jim Ross
jwross@...



-- In disklavier@yahoogroups.com, "" <luenerl@k...> wrote:
> Actually, Todd is correct mid2eseq and vice-a-verse work just fine 
in windows. Windows xp will format a 720 k floppy if you use the 
trick of using 1.4 MB floppies and tape over the open hole (not the 
locking hole) with non-transparent tape. The computer than thinks it 
is a 720k. YOU MUST BE Patient. It takes a long time for the computer
to see this disk (most people give up and think it won't work). Once 
it sees the disk a popup window will appear and tell you that the 
disk is unformatted and ask you if you would like to format it. One 
of the options will be to format a 720k disk. Again, be patient it 
takes awhile. Good luck!
>  
> 
> 
> ----- Original Message ----- From: Todd Muncy Sent: 8/12/2003 
9:41:54 AM To: disklavier@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: Re: [disklavier] File downloads 
> Actually, I think dkvcopy is the only program in the dkvutil suite 
that requires a pure DOS boot. The other programs, including 
mid2eseq, I believe will run under Windows. Windows XP will read and 
write 720K floppies, but it will not format them.
> ----- Original Message ----- From:  [mailto:carolrpt@h...]Carol 
Beigel To:
>  [mailto:disklavier@yahoogroups.com]disklavier@yahoogroups.com 

Sent: Tuesday, August
> 12, 2003 9:33 AM Subject: Re: [disklavier] File downloads 
> Your Disklavier only plays the Yamaha proprietary format ESEQ files 
from 720k floppy disks. There is a free program in the files section 
called dkutil that will convert MIDI files to ESEQ format. However, 
this old software ONLY runs in real DOS, not the virtual DOS that 
comes with Windows XP. All PianoSoft files from Yamaha use this 
backwardly compatible ESEQ format.
 
You have two options for using the floppy drive. Either purchase an 
older computer or laptop that runs Windows 98 or earlier, or upgrade 
to Yamaha's DSR1 control box that will also give you Ensemble sounds, 
uses HD disks, and can play MIDI files in either SMF1 or SMF0 without 
conversion, has a memory disk and uses flash memory to update the 
software.
 
 Your Disklavier, however, should be able to play standard MIDI 
files from your XP laptop computer using playlist or jukebox 
software. Any MIDI tracks allocated to Channels 1 or 2 will play the 
keys on the DKV.

Carol Beigel
crbrpt@b...

The easy solution to this problem is to purchase 2DD 
diskettes already formatted.  They are readily available 
from a variety of vendors.

--- In disklavier@yahoogroups.com, "jwross1" <jwross1@y...> wrote:
>  Windows will not 
> let me format a 2DD disk. 

There IS a way to format 720k disks in Windows XP. While Explorer won't let you do it, 
the command line will.

Open a command window (Start -> Programs -> Accessories -> Command Prompt).
Type the following line:

format a: /t:80 /n:9

You will be prompted to insert a blank disk in the A: drive. Do so and then hit enter. If 
the disk you inserted is a double density disk, you should see progress messages as 
it is formatted. Wait until you get the command prompt back after which you can type 
exit to close the command window. From there XP should see the disk just fine and 
allow you to drag copy your files onto it.

...matthew...

Surely you have a friend who still owns a Windows 98 machine. Ask 
them to make you a startup disk (phooey on any licensing violations, 
Mr. Gates, it's only a startup disk ;->): Start | Settings | Control 
Panel | Add/Remove Programs | StartUp Disk tab | Create Disk

With this disk, restart your XP machine.

At the prompt: Type C: and press ENTER.

Remove startup disk and replace with your DD disks. At the Prompt, 
type: Format A: /F:720 and press ENTER

Another, more involved method involves making a disk image with 
WinImage from bootdisk.com, but I think you said you were relative 
newbie, so forget that (unless the above doesn't work).

Fred Kagel, Dir.
Frehold Computer Training Ctr.
www.freeholdcomputer.com

Please allow me to add on to this excellent method to format 720k disks
- the easiest way to do this in Windows XP is this:
   1. Click on "Start"
   2. Select "Run"
   3. Type in "cmd /k format a: /t:80 /n:9" (without the quotes) and hit
Enter.
   4. Follow the prompt (insert DD floppy and hit Enter).

The beauty is that the next time you need to do this, the long command
will be remembered in the previous commands of the "Run" box (as
pull-down selection), as long as you're logged in on the same computer
as the same user.

You can use other alternatives such as a batch file or a shortcut to
execute this (assuming that, like me, you sometimes have trouble
remembering seldom used DOS command switches), but the run box takes the
least effort.

Chine-Chine Wang


"Matthew E. Walworth" wrote:

> 
> --- In disklavier@yahoogroups.com, "jwross1" <jwross1@y...> wrote:
> >  Windows will not
> > let me format a 2DD disk.
> 
> There IS a way to format 720k disks in Windows XP. While Explorer won't let you do it,
> the command line will.
> 
> Open a command window (Start -> Programs -> Accessories -> Command Prompt).
> Type the following line:
> 
> format a: /t:80 /n:9
> 
> You will be prompted to insert a blank disk in the A: drive. Do so and then hit enter. If
> the disk you inserted is a double density disk, you should see progress messages as
> it is formatted. Wait until you get the command prompt back after which you can type
> exit to close the command window. From there XP should see the disk just fine and
> allow you to drag copy your files onto it.
> 
> ...matthew...
> 
> 
> To Post a message to the group, send it to:   disklavier@...
> 
> To Post a private message to Todd Muncy, the group's founder and moderator, send it to:
> disklavier-owner@...
> 
> To reach our group's web site go to:
> http://Yahoogroups.com/group/disklavier
> 
> Todd's family web site was completely updated 01/15/03.  It contains some fun disklavier content and links to midi sites among many other things, The url is:
> http://MuncyFamily.com
> 
> THINKING OF LEAVING THE GROUP?
> If you are thinking of unsubcribing because you are getting too much mail, go the the web site and change your email delivery option instead.  That will fix the problem, while maintaining your access to the group.  If you insist on leaving us completely send a blank email to:
> disklavier-unsubscribe@...
> 
> Know someone who wants to join?  Have them send a blank email to:
> disklavier-subscribe@... or give them this link:
> http://Yahoogroups.com/group/disklavier/join
> 
> 
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

Phil Becker a \ufffdcrit:

> Holly,
>  
>      I hope Yamaha hears your comments.  After 3 years with a DC3A 
> Pro, I must say you have stated what I feel quite learly. I have 
> computer professional for over 30 years, so I'm used to technology 
> but learning how to interface with and use the computerized features 
> of my Disklavier has been one of the toughest learning curves I've 
> ever had.  Once I learn some part of it, everything works extremely 
> well and I'm thrilled with the result. But they make all this a lot 
> more primitive than it should be, and a lot harder to learn.
>  
>      You are right. It is 2003, and the computer side of these pianos 
> *is* a lot more like 1994.  Ok, now I'll go back to being quiet, but 
> you hit a nerve...
>  
> Phil

Hi Holly, Hi Phil,

You're absolutely right ! -I might just add that Windows suffers from 
the same problem (and XP made it worse, I'm afraid!)-
I do not understand >Yamaha's policy. I love my DU1A, love to use it 
onstage in  theatre for children. But Yamaha seems to have written the 
doc for people who will use it as a (sophisticated) juke box, in night 
bars or hotel  lobbies. Musicians are not dealed with. Creative computer 
music artists are left without a clue as how to broaden the musical 
scope of  the instrument, to use it in ways unthought of by Yamaha's 
researchers.

After 6 months of complaints, I am still stuck without ways to simply 
use the possibilities described in the Manuals. I find this 
communication policy is absurd.
I even decided to cover the Yamaha logo on the DU1A. I am not sure I 
want the audiences think that "Nanette's piano" is a Yamaha jewel. I 
know it is, it just lack a way to wear it and make it shine!

Now enough complaints from me : I feel I'm stuck repeating myself !
Shoudn't we try and find a way to have them hear us ?
At least someone up there must be lurking-listening to the group's 
complaints?
What about complaining together ?
Summing up our questions, our admiration for the instrument abilities, 
and our hope that they will change their policy ?

Jean Debefve

> Hmm, thats not strictly true - there is no reason you shouldn't

Yes OK, I was over-simplifying, but the effect is pretty similar.  
And many new PC's now come either without a floppy drive at all, or 
with an HD drive than can't reliably write other formats.  Pretty 
soon the 'old' PC will be the only thing you can write DD disks on.

> I've yet to try this properly ...
> Does the 500ms delay affect everything going into the piano, ie 
> the synthesiser sounds as well as the piano, or does it just
> affect the normal piano ?

The 500ms delay is a genius idea, as the Disklavier actually needs 
to start pressing a note before the time the note starts (it being a 
mechanical action), and this delay is longer for softer notes (which 
is logical, when you think about it).  It's a 'feature' of the 
ability of a human player that isn't even considered when playing 
manually.  Everything gets delayed, so everything works, but plays 
back half a second after the computer thought it was going to be 
played.  

The only problem (that I have found) with this is when playing for 
example one half of a duet, and trying to play along with it and 
record the 'other' part.  The recording happens in real time and 
hence records half a second after the playback notes.  For this 
reason, there is an option in the MIDI setup to play the notes 
immediately.  The playback is slightly imperfect, but is good enough 
to play along to in this situation.  Or, of course, with any decent 
sequencing software you could just grab the entire playback and haul 
it back 500ms to correct it.

Otherwise it's not an issue at all.

> ...of France - any idea where to purchase a correct cable, or even 
> the type of cable needed.

Now I'm jealous... :-)  

The cable you need is a plain MIDI cable (probably only easily 
available from a music shop, anywhere that sells nasty electronic 
keyboards might do).  Or a very large computer superstore in France, 
although as it's more a 'music' cable than a 'computer' cable, most 
computer shops don't know about them.

The other thing you need, of course, is a MIDI port on your laptop, 
unless you already have one, which would be extremely unusual.  I 
use a Sound Blaster Extigy (which is an external sound-card that 
plugs in to any computer and has MIDI ports on it, amongst other 
things).  Others on here will be able to suggest other alternative 
MIDI ports for a laptop, particularly if you have an extender device 
(docking station?) which has a joystick port on it...

Regards


Charles

Ralph,
Ah, simplicity!
Fred

--- In disklavier@yahoogroups.com, "Ralph  Specht"  wrote:

> The easy solution to this problem is to purchase 2DD 
> diskettes already formatted.  They are readily available 
> from a variety of vendors.

I have been involved with computers for 40 years and have been in the 
computer training business for 25 years. In spite of that fact, it 
wasn't good enough for musician wife. She sent me off to a Choir 
College to learn the grand daddy of all scoring programs, Finale.

There comes a time, when you yourself have to judge how you learn 
best: from a book or manual, a machine (the Internet, CD, tape), or 
from a live person at a college, music school, or training center 
such as mine. Having said that, also consider forming or joining a 
face-to-face DKV users group. I am sure that a local music store 
would be more than willing to host such a group monthly as it brings 
in more potential customers. 

Expecting Yamaha to help you learn to computerize your DKV is akin to 
asking the auto manufacturer to teach you to drive or change the oil. 
Unless education and training is a profit center for the company, the 
company will consider it an expense. Yeh, PR, good-will, loyalty, 
blah, blah, blah.

Actually, Yamaha does have a profit center in the way of Yamaha Music 
Education and a pretty darn good one (geared for young children and 
aimed at the musical side, not the computer side).

I have dabbled with MIDI for quite some time now and never have found 
any one source to be gospel. I started with Electronic Musician 
magazine, bought MIDI for Musicians book, read the Passport manuals, 
took a two semester non-credit course on Voyetra Sequencer Plus for 
DOS in which I had to compose, read the MIDI section of every manual 
of every MIDI synthezier my wife has bought, read every post on this 
BBS since June when we got our DKV, participate on the BBS when I 
can, play with MIDI sequencing software and actually read the tips, 
and in the final analysis, just try something and see if it works or 
not.

Best,
Fred


--- In disklavier@yahoogroups.com, "Phil Becker"
> 
>      I hope Yamaha hears your comments.  After 3 years with a DC3A 
Pro, I must say you have stated what I feel quite learly. I have 
computer professional for over 30 years, so I'm used to technology 
but learning how to interface with and use the computerized features 
of my Disklavier has been one of the toughest learning curves I've 
ever had.  Once I learn some   part of it, everything works extremely 
well and I'm thrilled with the result....

Cool! There you go, ask and ye shall receive!

--- In disklavier@yahoogroups.com, "Mike Kline" 
 
> In Windows XP ( from the MSDOS command prompt );  Format a: / 
t:80 / n:9

The 'slight imperfection' is intolerable, IMO.

Having done sequencing in real time with synthesizers and sound 
modules, the Disclavier just doesn't cut it as a slave in the 
presence of other sound modules --- with or without the time delay. 
The syncing is impossible!

If no other modules are present except for sound controller of the 
DKV itself, you're in business. Keep the sound delay. With sound 
delay off, our DKV can't handle the extent midi messages of some SMFs 
and literally chokes.

Fred
 

> The 500ms delay is a genius idea, as the Disklavier actually needs  
to start pressing a note before the time the note starts (it being  > 
mechanical action), and this delay is longer for softer notes (which 
is logical, when you think about it).  It's a 'feature' of the  
ability of a human player that isn't even considered when playing  
manually.  Everything gets delayed, so everything works, but plays 
back half a second after the computer thought it was going to be 
played.  
> 
> The only problem (that I have found) with this is when playing for 
> example one half of a duet, and trying to play along with it and 
> record the 'other' part.  The recording happens in real time and 
> hence records half a second after the playback notes.  For this 
> reason, there is an option in the MIDI setup to play the notes 
> immediately.  The playback is slightly imperfect, but is good 
enough 
> to play along to in this situation.  Or, of course, with any decent 
> sequencing software you could just grab the entire playback and 
haul 

> it back 500ms to correct it.
> 
> Otherwise it's not an issue at all.

Thank you both! Thank you!
Until now I've been limited to playing PianoSoft Solo
disks and my daughter's recital music that we recorded
on my MX-88.  I have quite a few DS/DD diskettes but I
gave up on ever using them because I believed XP (and
my NT-based machine at work for that matter) refused
to format them. With this simple DOS command and the
MID2ESEQ utility that I downloaded months ago when I
joined the group, a world full of MIDI files is
available in my living room!

Rich


--- Chine-Chine Wang <chine@...> wrote:
> Please allow me to add on to this excellent method
> to format 720k disks
> - the easiest way to do this in Windows XP is this:
>    1. Click on "Start"
>    2. Select "Run"
>    3. Type in "cmd /k format a: /t:80 /n:9" (without
> the quotes) and hit
> Enter.
>    4. Follow the prompt (insert DD floppy and hit
> Enter).
> 
> The beauty is that the next time you need to do
> this, the long command
> will be remembered in the previous commands of the
> "Run" box (as
> pull-down selection), as long as you're logged in on
> the same computer
> as the same user.
> 
> You can use other alternatives such as a batch file
> or a shortcut to
> execute this (assuming that, like me, you sometimes
> have trouble
> remembering seldom used DOS command switches), but
> the run box takes the
> least effort.
> 
> Chine-Chine Wang
> 
> 
> "Matthew E. Walworth" wrote:
> > 
> > --- In disklavier@yahoogroups.com, "jwross1"
> <jwross1@y...> wrote:
> > >  Windows will not
> > > let me format a 2DD disk.
> > 
> > There IS a way to format 720k disks in Windows XP.
> While Explorer won't let you do it,
> > the command line will.
> > 
> > Open a command window (Start -> Programs ->
> Accessories -> Command Prompt).
> > Type the following line:
> > 
> > format a: /t:80 /n:9
> > 
> > You will be prompted to insert a blank disk in the
> A: drive. Do so and then hit enter. If
> > the disk you inserted is a double density disk,
> you should see progress messages as
> > it is formatted. Wait until you get the command
> prompt back after which you can type
> > exit to close the command window. From there XP
> should see the disk just fine and
> > allow you to drag copy your files onto it.
> > 
> > ...matthew...
> 

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Just be aware that all of this problems are only for older DKV, 
newer ones (I think since 1999) are compatible whit borh HD and DD 
disk and also with Standard Midi Files (.MID)  and Yamaha Eseq files 
(.FIL)