Disklavier

To save some of you a lot of time, I thought I would mention what I perceive
to be a misconception.  Pedal, key and hammer sensors only affect the
Recording and have nothing to do with playback.

All Yamaha PianoSoft music is RECORDED on DKV models with incremental
pedaling.  When you use the Record feature yourself, this data is also
recorded.  Using the gray scale, this data is encoded in the pedal
information.  If you have a DKV with incremental pedaling, as most do, then
this data plays back on your DKV.  If you don't have this feature, the pedal
will be either ON or OFF.  The gray scale sensors only observe and record
data, not do anything to control the playback of the pedal solenoid.
Disklaviers without incremental pedaling will ALWAYS be thumpier than those
equipped with this feature.

The same goes for Key and Hammer sensors.  These things simply record what
is happening and translate the information into data.  They have no control
over playback.  Disklavier acoustic pianos are completely controlled by the
geometry and mechanics of the mechanical piano action that causes the piano
hammers to strike the strings.

All this means is that Disklaviers equipped with incremental pedaling and
hammer sensors will RECORD a piano performance with more nuance than those
DKVs without them.  Your Disklavier, however, will respond to music recorded
on other pianos even though the data on these files is not necessarily
optimized for your model.  Yamaha PianoSoft will always be optimized to play
on your instruments.  Most of the MIDI files on the internet, as most have
you have noticed, are NOT optimized for playback on an acoustic piano and
require adjustments to the volume and sometimes the pedal data.  That does
not mean there are deficiencies in your DKV design or condition!!

Carol Beigel

From: "Carol Beigel" <crbrpt@...>

> To save some of you a lot of time, I thought I would mention what I perceive
> to be a misconception.  Pedal, key and hammer sensors only affect the
> Recording and have nothing to do with playback.

D: Hi Carol,

D: Thanks for your input and clarification here.

> All Yamaha PianoSoft music is RECORDED on DKV models with incremental
> pedaling.  When you use the Record feature yourself, this data is also
> recorded.  Using the gray scale, this data is encoded in the pedal
> information.  If you have a DKV with incremental pedaling, as most do, then
> this data plays back on your DKV.  If you don't have this feature, the pedal
> will be either ON or OFF.  The gray scale sensors only observe and record
> data, not do anything to control the playback of the pedal solenoid.
> Disklaviers without incremental pedaling will ALWAYS be thumpier than those
> equipped with this feature.

D: Can you elaborate on the term 'gray scale'?

D: I am currently working on only playing back existing MIDI files. What I am
currently working on is attempting to first find out which models have the
incrementing pedaling feature, i.e., which models began to implement it. The
.pdf file that you placed in the 'files' section here does not include that
information. Do you happen to know which models started implementing it? Also,
it seems that there are still differences in 'behavior' between models that do
have the incremental pedaling implemented; i.e., the differences between the
Mark II and MarkII XG models that Robert and I have. Obviously, this could get
quite detailed...

D: Out of curiosity, does the incremental pedaling info also get recorded (when
a DKV supports it) to MIDI out when using the DKV MIDI output to a MIDI
sequencer using either the MIDI port <or> the 'To Host' connector?

> The same goes for Key and Hammer sensors.  These things simply record what
> is happening and translate the information into data.  They have no control
> over playback.  Disklavier acoustic pianos are completely controlled by the
> geometry and mechanics of the mechanical piano action that causes the piano
> hammers to strike the strings.

D: Understood. The DKV has a totally separate recording and playback mechanism.
This 'geometry and mechanics of the mechanical piano action' between different
pianos is also a factor in addition to the firmware differences.

> All this means is that Disklaviers equipped with incremental pedaling and
> hammer sensors will RECORD a piano performance with more nuance than those
> DKVs without them.  Your Disklavier, however, will respond to music recorded
> on other pianos even though the data on these files is not necessarily
> optimized for your model.  Yamaha PianoSoft will always be optimized to play
> on your instruments.  Most of the MIDI files on the internet, as most have
> you have noticed, are NOT optimized for playback on an acoustic piano and
> require adjustments to the volume and sometimes the pedal data.  That does
> not mean there are deficiencies in your DKV design or condition!!

D: I realize that it would be impossible to playback accurately any downloadable
MIDI file. (Even a good quality one.) What I am trying to ascertain, is possibly
a good 'medium' that *may* help for various MIDI files on earlier DKVs. The
biggest problem in working on this this, is that I would need several DKVs
sitting in front of me to try different ideas on. This may turn out to be too
complex to be achievable, but I am investigating it. The main thing that I am
looking at is the pedaling issue, and maybe how to lessen the effects on those
models which do not support the playback incremental pedaling and are having
difficulty in having it adjusted. After personally 'hearing' this thumping on my
DKV, I am somewhat motivated in trying to find a 'fix' for those that cannot get
rid of it. I will need to find an owner locally in my area with such a model
willing to try some MIDI conttoller ideas on their piano. This would be
difficult to work on something as this 'long distance' by sending out MIDI files
for possible trial and error...

D: Danny

There is a universal "result" that any adjustment to piano pedals should
produce.  The standard adjustment should feel the same to the pianist if
they are playing an upright or grand piano.

When using no pedal, the damper should start coming away from the string
when the hammer is half way to hitting the string.  This adjustment is made
phyiscally to the piano action by adjusting the spoons on an upright piano
action, or adjusting the height of the underlevers on a grand piano.  The
Disklavier measures this distance by using hammer and key sensors.
Therefore as long as the piano key stays down there is no damping of the
string.  That is how QRS gets around using a pedal solenoid to get the notes
to sustain longer.  The Loud pedal is a misnomer.  It is really a sustain
pedal.

The Soft pedal is also a misnomer.  On upright pianos, the hammers are
merely moved closer to the strings thereby decreasing their travel.  The
power is removed through the lost motion between the key and hammer.  On a
grand piano, the entire piano action is shifted slightly to the right enough
so that the hammer is only striking 2 instead of 3 strings on three-string
unisons.  It only strikes 1 string instead of 2 on two-string unisons.
Ideally, this adjustment is made so that the hammer is striking the strings
in a different place on the hammer head than a string groove.

When using a pedal on a piano, there needs to be a SLIGHT amount of lost
motion between the pedal being pressed down and any result of the dampers or
piano action.  To adjust the pedals on any model of Disklavier, the physcal
adjustment is made to the piano first.  THEN the solenoid gap and
appropriate sensors are adjusted for the Disklavier so that it can measure
appropriately what is happening to the physical workings of the pedals.  The
grayscale, aside from being a really expensive $300 piece of plastic, is a
sensor that measures incrementally how much the pedal rod is moving, was
used on Disklaviers starting in 1989 with the Wagon Grand.  The only models
that DO NOT have this feature are some upright models:  the MX100A or B, the
MX80 and the MX500 series.

These calibrations of pedal and key movements are made in the Maintenance
Mode.  The pedal calibration is done by setting the number when the dampers
shut off at about 2 seconds.  There is also another sensor adjusted with a
pot adjustment for when the pedal "bottoms out".  When all the physical
dimensions are set, and the sensors are set properly, the Keyboard
Adjustment is run.  This calibrates how the keys play with the pedals.  If
there is a problem, Pass numbers are generated for each key or pedal that is
out of whack and the proper adjustment can be made.

I hope these explanations of the physical properties help for your software
writers!

Carol Beigel



----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Danny" <simpsond@...>
To: <disklavier@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, January 06, 2004 9:46 AM
Subject: Re: [disklavier] About DKV sensors and grayscale


>
> D: I realize that it would be impossible to playback accurately any
downloadable
> MIDI file. (Even a good quality one.) What I am trying to ascertain, is
possibly
> a good 'medium' that *may* help for various MIDI files on earlier DKVs.
The
> biggest problem in working on this this, is that I would need several DKVs
> sitting in front of me to try different ideas on. This may turn out to be
too
> complex to be achievable, but I am investigating it. The main thing that I
am
> looking at is the pedaling issue, and maybe how to lessen the effects on
those
> models which do not support the playback incremental pedaling and are
having
> difficulty in having it adjusted. After personally 'hearing' this thumping
on my
> DKV, I am somewhat motivated in trying to find a 'fix' for those that
cannot get
> rid of it. I will need to find an owner locally in my area with such a
model
> willing to try some MIDI conttoller ideas on their piano. This would be
> difficult to work on something as this 'long distance' by sending out MIDI
files

> for possible trial and error...
>
> D: Danny
>
>

Is that right?  Do Pianomation players not have a sustain pedal 
control and attempt to fudge it with key up information?  

This isn't really going to fool anyone -- the sustain pedal has a 
completely different effect.  For example, more dramatic chords can 
be played with pedal down *before* the key strikes (as opposed to 
the more common pedal after key), which allows other strings on the 
piano to sound with the harmonies.  This is another of the reasons 
why even the most perfect sampled pianos (on a computer, or a 
GranTouch and the like) don't sound even remotely like a real 
piano.  I didn't realise that Pianomation couldn't do this either...

--- In disklavier@yahoogroups.com, "Carol Beigel" <crbrpt@b...> 
wrote:
> That is how QRS gets around using a pedal solenoid to get the notes
to sustain longer.  The Loud pedal is a misnomer.  It is really a 
sustain pedal.

Actually, it is a "new" feature.  You can still buy a pedal solenoid for
your kit, but since they are so hard to retrofit on some pianos, it is an
"option".

Carol Beigel

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "tillsbury2000" <charlessteadman@...>
To: <disklavier@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, January 06, 2004 4:29 PM
Subject: [disklavier] Re: About DKV sensors and grayscale


> Is that right?  Do Pianomation players not have a sustain pedal
> control and attempt to fudge it with key up information?
>
> This isn't really going to fool anyone -- the sustain pedal has a
> completely different effect.  For example, more dramatic chords can
> be played with pedal down *before* the key strikes (as opposed to
> the more common pedal after key), which allows other strings on the
> piano to sound with the harmonies.  This is another of the reasons
> why even the most perfect sampled pianos (on a computer, or a
> GranTouch and the like) don't sound even remotely like a real
> piano.  I didn't realise that Pianomation couldn't do this either...
>
> --- In disklavier@yahoogroups.com, "Carol Beigel" <crbrpt@b...>
> wrote:
> > That is how QRS gets around using a pedal solenoid to get the notes
> to sustain longer.  The Loud pedal is a misnomer.  It is really a
> sustain pedal.
>
>
>
>
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