Disklavier

Thank you Fred, Spencer and Piano Bench,
     I will respond to your various comments (copied below) all at once rather than separately to make it easier for you all to follow. Maybe some others out there will benefit from some of the information here. 
     Since my response is rather lengthy, I have included it in an attached zip file along with some midi files that demonstrate some of my points. They sound very nice too so maybe those who are not that interested in the discussion will at least enjoy the music!
-Walt
------------------------
To: "Walter Sharpe" <disklavier@yahoogroups.com>

From: "Spencer Chase" <spencer@...>  Add to Address Book 
Date: Sat, 3 Jan 2004 00:09:40 -0800  
Subject: [disklavier] pedal thumping etc.      
 
Greetings Walter and Group,
I am writing utility programs to modify MIDI files. Is there some agreement regarding what needs to be done to eliminate duplicate track data etc for problems like pedal thumping? Is this an issolated problem or do certain MIDI file conventions (I really don't understand the need for duplicate pedal information to be in files to begin with.) produce files that cause problems and is there a need for utilities to remove or shift these events?
Most of the functions in my utilities are for electronic piano rolls but I am hoping to add functions for use by DKV owners. What sorts of functions are needed. I can easily add functions like merging tracks. I already can do this and can fix resulting overlaps but have not attempted to remove redundant events. This is probably not difficult to do but is it necessary? Does the DKV care if events are duplicated? 
--------------------------
To: disklavier@yahoogroups.com 
From: PianoBench@...  Add to Address Book 
Date: Sat, 3 Jan 2004 09:43:46 EST 
Subject: Re: [disklavier] Re: 3 mysterious Disklavier problems (Pedal Thump Revisited) 
Good morning, everyone.
Walt, I think it is time to call Yamaha Piano Service directly. You should not have to wait so long for your technician to take care of this matter.
All pianos will have some level of noise due to their mechanical nature. Your narrative seems to show that your instrument is outside of normal parameters.
Yamaha Piano Service: (800) 854-1569 between 8:30-5:00 PST. Push 2 at the first menu choice and 2 at the second menu choice.
I hasten to add, though, that I think the best test of your instrument would be to see how it plays song files that were recorded in realtime by a pianist on a Disklavier. The song files from 
www.parlorsongs.com were not recorded by a pianist on a Disklavier. Although they may be enjoyable, they represent a totally artificial creation.
Regards,
PianoBench 
----------------------
o: disklavier@yahoogroups.com 
From: "fkagel" <fkagel@...>  Add to Address Book 
Date: Sat, 03 Jan 2004 10:09:07 -0000 
Subject: [disklavier] Re: 3 mysterious Disklavier problems (Pedal Thump Revisited) 
Walt,
Starting with the source, the 12th St Rag Midi file is strictly on/off (up/down) for the sustain pedal, no ands, ifs, or buts. Therefore, continuous (HP/Half Pedal) is a mute issue with this particular file.In Cakewalk, View | Events and observe Controller 64 (the sustain pedal) as 127 or 0 --- right down thump alley. In Cakewalk or other sequencing program, you can lower the upper values. You did not delete all of the pedal info as you have indicated below. I still saw Controller 64 data.
I am not familiar with your model DKV (we have a Mark III), and not sure of your controller's capabilities with regard to HP data. What happens if you record something and observe the Controller values in Cakewalk? Are they not in a variable range? How does the thumping sound? 
AFAIK, you can redirect only one MIDI channel to the DSK itself through the Mark III controller functions, so what you are doing with the midi file is just fine. I was referring to a file that already had Piano on Channel 1 and 2 and pedal on 3.
Fred 






---------------------------------
Do you Yahoo!?
Find out what made the Top Yahoo! Searches of 2003

Greetings Walter,

Thanks for the report on what you do to improve midi files for use on
the DKV. It sounds like nothing is really going to improve a thumping
pedal. That was my suspicion. I was just hoping to include a function
in my program if something could be described that would fix a problem
with the files. Sounds like this is not the case.

With all the adjusting that you do to velocities you might find my
velocity adjusting program to be useful. You can define presets to
adjust minimum and maximum levels as well as adding a general increase
or decrease. You don't have to keep opening and closing files. Just
direct the program to the folder containing files and all will be
processed automatically. Once you figure out the presets that you
need, you can save them and use them over and over.

I will be updating and improving the program as I find things that
need improving. You can find the latest version at:

http://www.spencerserolls.com/VelMod/VelMod.zip

Be sure to click on the help button for  description as to how the
program works.

Saturday, January 3, 2004, 11:04:33 PM, you wrote:

WS> Thank you Fred, Spencer and Piano Bench,

WS> \ufffd\ufffd\ufffd\ufffd I will respond to your various comments (copied below)
WS> all at once rather than separately to make it easier for you all
WS> to follow. Maybe some others out there will benefit from some of
WS> the information here. 

WS> \ufffd\ufffd\ufffd\ufffd Since my response is rather lengthy, I have included it
WS> in an attached zip file along with some midi files that
WS> demonstrate some of my points. They sound very nice too so maybe
WS> those who are not that interested in the discussion will at least
WS> enjoy the music!

WS> -Walt
WS> ------------------------
WS> To: "Walter Sharpe" <disklavier@yahoogroups.com>
WS> From: "Spencer Chase" <spencer@...>\ufffd Add to Address Book 
WS> Date: Sat, 3 Jan 2004 00:09:40 -0800\ufffd 
WS> Subject: [disklavier] pedal thumping etc.\ufffd\ufffd\ufffd\ufffd\ufffd 
WS> \ufffd
WS> Greetings Walter and Group,

WS> I am writing utility programs to modify MIDI files. Is there
WS> some agreement regarding what needs to be done to eliminate
WS> duplicate track data etc for problems like pedal thumping? Is this
WS> an issolated problem or do certain MIDI file conventions (I really
WS> don't understand the need for duplicate pedal information to be in
WS> files to begin with.) produce files that cause problems and is
WS> there a need for utilities to remove or shift these events?

WS> Most of the functions in my utilities are for electronic
WS> piano rolls but I am hoping to add functions for use by DKV
WS> owners. What sorts of functions are needed. I can easily add
WS> functions like merging tracks. I already can do this and can fix
WS> resulting overlaps but have not attempted to remove redundant
WS> events. This is probably not difficult to do but is it necessary?
WS> Does the DKV care if events are duplicated? 
WS> --------------------------
WS> To: disklavier@yahoogroups.com
WS> From: PianoBench@...\ufffd Add to Address Book 
WS> Date: Sat, 3 Jan 2004 09:43:46 EST 
WS> Subject: Re: [disklavier] Re: 3 mysterious Disklavier
WS> problems (Pedal Thump Revisited) 

WS> Good morning, everyone.

WS> Walt, I think it is time to call Yamaha Piano Service
WS> directly. You should not have to wait so long for your technician
WS> to take care of this matter.

WS> All pianos will have some level of noise due to their
WS> mechanical nature. Your narrative seems to show that your
WS> instrument is outside of normal parameters.

WS> Yamaha Piano Service: (800) 854-1569 between 8:30-5:00 PST.
WS> Push 2 at the first menu choice and 2 at the second menu choice.

WS> I hasten to add, though, that I think the best test of your
WS> instrument would be to see how it plays song files that were
WS> recorded in realtime by a pianist on a Disklavier. The song files
WS> from 
WS> www.parlorsongs.com were not recorded by a pianist on a
WS> Disklavier. Although they may be enjoyable, they represent a
WS> totally artificial creation.

WS> Regards,
WS> PianoBench 
WS> ----------------------
WS> o: disklavier@yahoogroups.com
WS> From: "fkagel" <fkagel@...>\ufffd Add to Address Book 
WS> Date: Sat, 03 Jan 2004 10:09:07 -0000 
WS> Subject: [disklavier] Re: 3 mysterious Disklavier problems (Pedal Thump Revisited)

WS> Walt,

WS> Starting with the source, the 12th St Rag Midi file is
WS> strictly on/off (up/down) for the sustain pedal, no ands, ifs, or
WS> buts. Therefore, continuous (HP/Half Pedal) is a mute issue with
WS> this particular file.In Cakewalk, View | Events and observe
WS> Controller 64 (the sustain pedal) as 127 or 0 --- right down thump
WS> alley. In Cakewalk or other sequencing program, you can lower the
WS> upper values. You did not delete all of the pedal info as you have
WS> indicated below. I still saw Controller 64 data.

WS> I am not familiar with your model DKV (we have a Mark III),
WS> and not sure of your controller's capabilities with regard to HP
WS> data. What happens if you record something and observe the
WS> Controller values in Cakewalk? Are they not in a variable range?
WS> How does the thumping sound? 

WS> AFAIK, you can redirect only one MIDI channel to the DSK
WS> itself through the Mark III controller functions, so what you are
WS> doing with the midi file is just fine. I was referring to a file
WS> that already had Piano on Channel 1 and 2 and pedal on 3.

WS> Fred 










WS> Do you Yahoo!?
WS> Find out what made the Top Yahoo! Searches of 2003

WS> To Post a message to the group, send it to:\ufffd\ufffd disklavier@...

WS> To Post a private message to Todd Muncy, the group's founder and moderator, send it to:
WS> disklavier-owner@...

WS> To reach our group's web site go to:
WS> http://Yahoogroups.com/group/disklavier

WS> Todd's family web site was completely updated 012/22/03.\ufffd It
WS> contains some fun disklavier content and links to midi sites among
WS> many other things, The url is:
WS> http://MuncyFamily.com

WS> THINKING OF LEAVING THE GROUP?
WS> If you are thinking of unsubcribing because you are getting
WS> too much mail, go the the web site and change your email delivery
WS> option instead.\ufffd That will fix the problem, while maintaining your
WS> access to the group.\ufffd If you insist on leaving us completely send
WS> a blank email to:
WS> disklavier-unsubscribe@... 

WS> Know someone who wants to join?\ufffd Have them send a blank email to:
WS> disklavier-subscribe@... or give them this link:
WS> http://Yahoogroups.com/group/disklavier/join





WS> Yahoo! Groups Links
WS> To visit your group on the web, go to:
WS> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/disklavier/
WS> \ufffdTo unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
WS> disklavier-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
WS> \ufffdYour use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.



 



-- 
Best regards,
Spencer Chase        mailto:spencer@...
67550 Bell Springs Rd.
Garberville,  CA 95542    Postal service only.
Laytonville, CA 95454    UPS only.
Spencer@...
http://www.spencerserolls.com
http://www.spencerserolls.com/MidiValve.htm
(707) 984-8356

Greetings PianoBench,

The reason I bothered to write my velocity modifying program was so
that any mapping may be done from original velocity to adjusted
velocity. You can make a mapping profile that sets minimum and maximum
and scales any way you want, all in one step. You can even make non
linear mappings so as to keep crashed notes, for example. Once you
have a mapping profile that you like you can save it and use it or
modify it etc etc. The program works on individual files (new feature)
or whole folders so you don't have to open each file in cakewalk. It
(by default) leaves the original files intact, or overwrites them.

Sunday, January 4, 2004, 8:23:09 AM, you wrote:

Pac> Good morning, everyone.

Pac> In a message dated 1/4/04 2:07:16 AM, Walt writes in his text file attachment:

Pac> <<I use Cakewalk to reduce the velocities on all of Bill's
Pac> stuff by at least 40 on all 3 tracks....[SNIP]
Pac> With Cakewalk, reducing all of the velocities by 40 might
Pac> take some that were under 40 to start with too low. Well, if you
Pac> close the file and reopen it again and look at the velocities in
Pac> event view, you will see all the velocities are down by 40 except
Pac> that none will go below 1.>>



-- 
Best regards,
Spencer Chase        mailto:spencer@...
67550 Bell Springs Rd.
Garberville,  CA 95542    Postal service only.
Laytonville, CA 95454    UPS only.
Spencer@...
http://www.spencerserolls.com
http://www.spencerserolls.com/MidiValve.htm
(707) 984-8356

From: Walter Sharpe

Thank you Fred, Spencer and Piano Bench,
     I will respond to your various comments (copied below) all at once rather
than separately to make it easier for you all to follow. Maybe some others out
there will benefit from some of the information here.
     Since my response is rather lengthy, I have included it in an attached zip
file along with some midi files that demonstrate some of my points. They sound
very nice too so maybe those who are not that interested in the discussion will
at least enjoy the music!
-Walt

***********

W: Also contained in the zip file is a file called "PEDAL THUMP TEST.mid". It
contains nothing but pedal events so you can listen to the pedal action and any
rumble of vibration pedal thump sets off in the strings. I created it with
Cakewalk Home Studio. When you insert a pedal event in Staff view, Cakewalk
writes in a 127 and a 0. (In other words, a down and an up.) On Track one, by
going into the "Event List" view and changing the numbers, I was able to
demonstate that my two year old MX500 Disklavier II interprets Controller 64
values between 85 and 127 the same: pedal down with a thump. It treats values
between 80 and 0 the same also: pedal up with another thump. It's going to be
interesting to put this file on a floppy disk and try it on a few different
Disklaviers on the show room floor.

D: Hi Walter

D: I've been following this thread with interest as I also have been
experimenting with the 'Pedal Thump' problem for some time. I am using a Mark II
XG Disklavier. When I change my controller 64 information so that I have a
'linear' type of pedaling, my sustain pedal follows in a somewhat linear
fashion, and not responding in a hard 'on/off' fashion. Have you tried
'modulating' the controller 64 data, i.e., a series of 'timed' 'on/offs'
gradually moving them apart in time? (A bit like PWM, pulse-width-modulation, in
Engineering terms. I can get a bit more detailed if you need this info.) A
mechanical motion takes time to respond from a stimulus. This *may* 'damp' the
physical motion enough to produce a softer 'on/off' pedaling. (Of course, we
don't know what Yamaha is doing internally when reading this MIDI data; i.e.,
how it responds to varying controller data in real time.) It sure would be nice
if we could figure out how different Disklavier models respond to the same
pedaling data. We could put this info in a .PDF file similar to what Carol added
in our 'files' section a while back showing differences between Disklavier
models.

D: A also tried your "PEDAL THUMP TEST.mid" file on my Mark II XG. As shown in
the first three measures of this file, you have an alternating 80 and 85, then
you go to the alternating 0 and 127. My pedal goes down a small bit and stays
there until measure 4.

D: I am attaching basically the same file with some controller 64 mods. When
playing this MIDI file on my Disklavier, the thump quietens the most with a
release value of 50. I can't hear much of a difference with the release values
of 20 or 30. I was trying the 'on' values of 127 and 100, just for
experimenting. The only time I hear the hard thump on my piano, is the releasing
of the sustain pedal. How about yours?

D: Danny

For Mark II DKVs capable of continuous sustain pedal, please be aware of 
this:

1) Continuous sustain pedal data directed to MIDI channel #1 will be 
interpreted as on/off.  That is, for data values 0 thru 63, the dampers 
will be completely lowered upon the strings; for data values 64 thru 
127, the dampers will be fully raised off the strings.

2) To obtain continuous sustain pedal movement, the sustain pedal 
continuous data must be directed to MIDI channel #3.  If you are sending 
the data from, say, a laptop to the MIDI In port, you must also set the 
DKV's MIDI IN to "CH=HP" in order for the DKV to respond with continuous 
sustain pedal motion.

In contrast, Mark III DKVs do appear to record and respond to continuous 
pedal data directed to MIDI channel #1.

Danny wrote:
> From: Walter Sharpe
> 
> Thank you Fred, Spencer and Piano Bench,
>      I will respond to your various comments (copied below) all at once rather
> than separately to make it easier for you all to follow. Maybe some others out
> there will benefit from some of the information here.
>      Since my response is rather lengthy, I have included it in an attached zip
> file along with some midi files that demonstrate some of my points. They sound
> very nice too so maybe those who are not that interested in the discussion will
> at least enjoy the music!
> -Walt
> 
> ***********
> 
> W: Also contained in the zip file is a file called "PEDAL THUMP TEST.mid". It
> contains nothing but pedal events so you can listen to the pedal action and any
> rumble of vibration pedal thump sets off in the strings. I created it with
> Cakewalk Home Studio. When you insert a pedal event in Staff view, Cakewalk
> writes in a 127 and a 0. (In other words, a down and an up.) On Track one, by
> going into the "Event List" view and changing the numbers, I was able to
> demonstate that my two year old MX500 Disklavier II interprets Controller 64
> values between 85 and 127 the same: pedal down with a thump. It treats values
> between 80 and 0 the same also: pedal up with another thump. It's going to be
> interesting to put this file on a floppy disk and try it on a few different
> Disklaviers on the show room floor.
> 
> D: Hi Walter
> 
> D: I've been following this thread with interest as I also have been
> experimenting with the 'Pedal Thump' problem for some time. I am using a Mark II
> XG Disklavier. When I change my controller 64 information so that I have a
> 'linear' type of pedaling, my sustain pedal follows in a somewhat linear
> fashion, and not responding in a hard 'on/off' fashion. Have you tried
> 'modulating' the controller 64 data, i.e., a series of 'timed' 'on/offs'
> gradually moving them apart in time? (A bit like PWM, pulse-width-modulation, in
> Engineering terms. I can get a bit more detailed if you need this info.) A
> mechanical motion takes time to respond from a stimulus. This *may* 'damp' the
> physical motion enough to produce a softer 'on/off' pedaling. (Of course, we
> don't know what Yamaha is doing internally when reading this MIDI data; i.e.,
> how it responds to varying controller data in real time.) It sure would be nice
> if we could figure out how different Disklavier models respond to the same
> pedaling data. We could put this info in a .PDF file similar to what Carol added
> in our 'files' section a while back showing differences between Disklavier
> models.
> 
> D: A also tried your "PEDAL THUMP TEST.mid" file on my Mark II XG. As shown in
> the first three measures of this file, you have an alternating 80 and 85, then
> you go to the alternating 0 and 127. My pedal goes down a small bit and stays
> there until measure 4.
> 
> D: I am attaching basically the same file with some controller 64 mods. When
> playing this MIDI file on my Disklavier, the thump quietens the most with a
> release value of 50. I can't hear much of a difference with the release values
> of 20 or 30. I was trying the 'on' values of 127 and 100, just for
> experimenting. The only time I hear the hard thump on my piano, is the releasing
> of the sustain pedal. How about yours?
> 
> D: Danny
> 
> To Post a message to the group, send it to:   disklavier@...
> 
> To Post a private message to Todd Muncy, the group's founder and moderator, send it to:
> disklavier-owner@...
> 
> To reach our group's web site go to:
> http://Yahoogroups.com/group/disklavier
> 
> Todd's family web site was completely updated 012/22/03.  It contains some fun disklavier content and links to midi sites among many other things, The url is:
> http://MuncyFamily.com 
> 
> THINKING OF LEAVING THE GROUP?
> If you are thinking of unsubcribing because you are getting too much mail, go the the web site and change your email delivery option instead.  That will fix the problem, while maintaining your access to the group.  If you insist on leaving us completely send a blank email to:
> disklavier-unsubscribe@... 
> 
> Know someone who wants to join?  Have them send a blank email to:
> disklavier-subscribe@... or give them this link:
> http://Yahoogroups.com/group/disklavier/join 
>  
> 
> Yahoo! Groups Links
> 
> To visit your group on the web, go to:
>  http://groups.yahoo.com/group/disklavier/
> 
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
>  disklavier-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> 
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to:
>  http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ 
> 


-- 
Robert Welcyng
Anchorage, Alaska

PB,
Thank you. I figured you would know the reason for that. I forgot all about the R L buttons. I have so much to learn. I've been at it for 2 years all on my own. My focus has been much more narrow until now. My focus was on searching the Internet for midi's to put into Cakewalk Home Studio and see if I can make them play properly on my Disklavier. I found thousands of midis but most of them are not suitable or require a lot of work. Still, through a lot of hours of work, I have a pretty good library of material that works well. Through this group I am finally broadening my horizons. I wish I had found you all sooner. -Walt

PianoBench@... wrote:
Good morning, everyone.

In a message dated 1/4/04 2:07:16 AM, Walt writes in his text fi1le attachment:

<<Getting back to Puff, you will note that my Disklavier created a track 2 with almost identical pedal information as in track 1. Track 1 is directed out to channel 1. Track 2 is directed out to channel 2. I don't know why my Disklavier generated that second track because on playback, the acoustic piano appears to ignore anything coming in on any other channel besides 1.>>

When you make a piano recording on your Disklavier, the instrument leaves open the possibility that you intend to make a Left/Right recording in which you will record a left-hand part on track 1 (also channel 1) and a right-hand part on track 2 (also channel 2). Then, on playback, you can cancel either part using the Left and Right Part Cancel buttons.

The Disklavier puts the duplicate pedal data on track 2 so that if you cancel the left-hand part, you will still hear the right-hand part with the pedalling. If you wish to cancel the pedalling, you push both the L and R buttons simultaneously.

Regards,
PianoBench



To Post a message to the group, send it to:   disklavier@...

To Post a private message to Todd Muncy, the group's founder and moderator, send it to:
disklavier-owner@...

To reach our group's web site go to:
http://Yahoogroups.com/group/disklavier

Todd's family web site was completely updated 012/22/03.  It contains some fun disklavier content and links to midi sites among many other things, The url is:
http://MuncyFamily.com 

THINKING OF LEAVING THE GROUP?
If you are thinking of unsubcribing because you are getting too much mail, go the the web site and change your email delivery option instead.  That will fix the problem, while maintaining your access to the group.  If you insist on leaving us completely send a blank email to:
disklavier-unsubscribe@... 

Know someone who wants to join?  Have them send a blank email to:
disklavier-subscribe@... or give them this link:
http://Yahoogroups.com/group/disklavier/join 




---------------------------------
Yahoo! Groups Links

   To visit your group on the web, go to:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/disklavier/
  
   To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
disklavier-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
  
   Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. 





---------------------------------
Do you Yahoo!?
Find out what made the Top Yahoo! Searches of 2003

From: "Robert Welcyng" <rwelcyng@...>

> For Mark II DKVs capable of continuous sustain pedal, please be aware of
> this:
>
> 1) Continuous sustain pedal data directed to MIDI channel #1 will be
> interpreted as on/off.  That is, for data values 0 thru 63, the dampers
> will be completely lowered upon the strings; for data values 64 thru
> 127, the dampers will be fully raised off the strings.
>
> 2) To obtain continuous sustain pedal movement, the sustain pedal
> continuous data must be directed to MIDI channel #3.  If you are sending
> the data from, say, a laptop to the MIDI In port, you must also set the
> DKV's MIDI IN to "CH=HP" in order for the DKV to respond with continuous
> sustain pedal motion.
>
> In contrast, Mark III DKVs do appear to record and respond to continuous
> pedal data directed to MIDI channel #1.


Hi Robert,

Thanks for the information.

Somehow, my Mark II definitely seems to respond quite differently to differing
controller 64 data, even though it is on channel 1. Alternating 0 and 127
produce the loud thump. Limiting it to values on channel 1, as shown in the
previous attached MIDI file, definitely produce lessening thump sounds. And I
can see that the pedal velocity is less. I have what I think is the latest MIDI
firmware update that was released a few years back.

I don't know if it is since I am 'limiting' its mechanical range in some
fashion. As I mentioned in my last post, the controller 64 values of alternating
80 and 85 on channel, seem to place the sustain pedal in an 'in-between' state,
neither fully on <or> off.

Question, even on the Mark III's, is there a danger of *not* releasing the
sustain pedal fully, by means of the controller when finished with a song, could
possibly cause an overheating problem with the pedal selenoid drive electronics,
i.e., possibly being left turned on for a long period of time <or> does the
firmware take care of this? Some of this experimenting may leave it on...

Maybe I have a Mark III at the price of a Mark II? ;^)

BTW, what are your feelings on possibly modulating the sustain pedal data for
the possibility of damping the pedal action somewhat?


Danny

Danny a écrit :

> ***********
>
> W: Also contained in the zip file is a file called "PEDAL THUMP
TEST.mid". It
> contains nothing but pedal events so you can listen to the pedal
action and any
> rumble of vibration pedal thump sets off in the strings. /.../ It's
going to be
> interesting to put this file on a floppy disk and try it on a few
different
> Disklaviers on the show room floor.
>

Greetings all,

My beloved DU1A is on tour, so I'll have to wait for a few days before
I can try and have it THUMP THUMP THUMP THUMP !!  an introducing
measure to some of  the nice  Joplin ragtimes  translated from piano
rolls. I especially think of "Stoptime Rag" where silences are
provided for thumping, inside the tune.  "Perfessor" Bill Edwards  has
a very good version of it too. What's more, it could be an effective
and musical  way to use the excess of thumping some of us have
reported, while waiting for the tech's visit !   <G>  (By the way, can
the "1 or 127" weght of most of the standard midi files be dangerous
for the pedal solenoïd, if used too frenetically or kept "on" too long ?)

Another entertainment idea :
Performers, try this : Present your piano to your (family) audience,
open the lid, have a THUMP !, leaving the pedal  "on", then sing the
first few few notes of a tune "into" the piano - let the strings ring
like a cathedral  : sounds like a nice echo effect !-, wait for a
second, and have the piano play what you've just sung ! Then sing the
tune, accompanied by your faithful and obedient piano.  The audience
will be mesmerized...  It will beat any karaoke.  Anybody  wants to
have a try ?

Very interesting stuff, this thread about the particularities of midi
on DKV.
Thanks to all.

Jean Debefve,
Belgium

Primarily to Danny:

I believe my Mark II's firmware is up-to-date.  Perhaps it is not. 
However, directing sustain pedal data to MIDI channel #3 should always 
work and will be compatible with all models of DKV--that's the way it's 
done on Yamaha's PianoSoft diskettes.

For certain MIDI files (e.g., the e-Competition), I have limited the 
sustain pedal data to no less than 20 and no greater than 95.  That has 
reduced the damper noise to my satisfaction, and, without messing up the 
intended pedaling effects.  As you might expect, correct pedal alignment 
would be more critical for this to work.  I did insure that the sustain 
pedal was properly adjusted and calibrated.

Trying to modulate on/off pedal data to resemble continuous data strikes 
me as being more trouble than it is worth.

I once measured the current and power consummed by the pedal solenoid. 
I'd have to go look for the figures, but it was amazingly low.  I kept 
the solenoid energized for 30 minutes and could feel little rise in 
temperature.  Actually, the solenoid requires the most current while 
raising the dampers; the current needed to hold a position is less.

Occasionally you hear reports of DKVs shutting down due to an 
overheating pedal solenoid. (You are possibly aware that pedal solenoid 
temperature is monitored.) My guess is that that is not due to poor 
solenoid design, but perhaps some mechanical resistance in the linkage 
or problem in the monitoring circuit.

One other aside:  The pedal adjustment of my DC3 Mark II was always 
changing because the adjustment nuts were turning with use (despite the 
leather washers and the nuts being set against each other).  I fixed 
that by wrapping plumbers teflon joint seal tape on the adjustment threads.

Bob

Danny wrote:
> From: "Robert Welcyng" <rwelcyng@...>
> 
>>For Mark II DKVs capable of continuous sustain pedal, please be aware of
>>this:
>>
>>1) Continuous sustain pedal data directed to MIDI channel #1 will be
>>interpreted as on/off.  That is, for data values 0 thru 63, the dampers
>>will be completely lowered upon the strings; for data values 64 thru
>>127, the dampers will be fully raised off the strings.
>>
>>2) To obtain continuous sustain pedal movement, the sustain pedal
>>continuous data must be directed to MIDI channel #3.  If you are sending
>>the data from, say, a laptop to the MIDI In port, you must also set the
>>DKV's MIDI IN to "CH=HP" in order for the DKV to respond with continuous
>>sustain pedal motion.
>>
>>In contrast, Mark III DKVs do appear to record and respond to continuous
>>pedal data directed to MIDI channel #1.
> 
> 
> 
> Hi Robert,
> 
> Thanks for the information.
> 
> Somehow, my Mark II definitely seems to respond quite differently to differing
> controller 64 data, even though it is on channel 1. Alternating 0 and 127
> produce the loud thump. Limiting it to values on channel 1, as shown in the
> previous attached MIDI file, definitely produce lessening thump sounds. And I
> can see that the pedal velocity is less. I have what I think is the latest MIDI
> firmware update that was released a few years back.
> 
> I don't know if it is since I am 'limiting' its mechanical range in some
> fashion. As I mentioned in my last post, the controller 64 values of alternating
> 80 and 85 on channel, seem to place the sustain pedal in an 'in-between' state,
> neither fully on <or> off.
> 
> Question, even on the Mark III's, is there a danger of *not* releasing the
> sustain pedal fully, by means of the controller when finished with a song, could
> possibly cause an overheating problem with the pedal selenoid drive electronics,
> i.e., possibly being left turned on for a long period of time <or> does the
> firmware take care of this? Some of this experimenting may leave it on...
> 
> Maybe I have a Mark III at the price of a Mark II? ;^)
> 
> BTW, what are your feelings on possibly modulating the sustain pedal data for
> the possibility of damping the pedal action somewhat?
> 
> 
> Danny
> 
> 
> To Post a message to the group, send it to:   disklavier@...
> 
> To Post a private message to Todd Muncy, the group's founder and moderator, send it to:
> disklavier-owner@...
> 
> To reach our group's web site go to:
> http://Yahoogroups.com/group/disklavier
> 
> Todd's family web site was completely updated 012/22/03.  It contains some fun disklavier content and links to midi sites among many other things, The url is:
> http://MuncyFamily.com 
> 
> THINKING OF LEAVING THE GROUP?
> If you are thinking of unsubcribing because you are getting too much mail, go the the web site and change your email delivery option instead.  That will fix the problem, while maintaining your access to the group.  If you insist on leaving us completely send a blank email to:
> disklavier-unsubscribe@... 
> 
> Know someone who wants to join?  Have them send a blank email to:
> disklavier-subscribe@... or give them this link:
> http://Yahoogroups.com/group/disklavier/join 
>  
> 
> 
> Yahoo! Groups Links
> 
> To visit your group on the web, go to:
>  http://groups.yahoo.com/group/disklavier/
> 
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
>  disklavier-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> 
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to:
>  http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ 
> 
> 
> 


-- 
Robert Welcyng
Anchorage, Alaska

Spencer,
 
Thanks. I was hoping your program could help with pedal thump too but I guess the problem lies somewhere in the MX500 Disklavier II design, construction and/or adjustment.
 
I'll check out your program. The idea of reducing velocities by percentages in order to retain dynamic range as suggested by PianoBench seems like an improvement over my method. I am anxious to see the results of his look at your program. It has to be interesting if it gets a Mac person to take a look. :-)  -Walt

Spencer Chase <spencer@...> wrote:

Greetings Walter,

Thanks for the report on what you do to improve midi files for use on
the DKV. It sounds like nothing is really going to improve a thumping
pedal. That was my suspicion. I was just hoping to include a function
in my program if something could be described that would fix a problem
with the files. Sounds like this is not the case.

With all the adjusting that you do to velocities you might find my
velocity adjusting program to be useful. You can define presets to
adjust minimum and maximum levels as well as adding a general increase
or decrease. You don't have to keep opening and closing files. Just
direct the program to the folder containing files and all will be
processed automatically. Once you figure out the presets that you
need, you can save them and use them over and over.

I will be updating and improving the program as I find things that
need improving. You can find the latest version at:

http://www.spencerserolls.com/VelMod/VelMod.zip

Be sure to click on the help button for description as to how the
program works.

Saturday, January 3, 2004, 11:04:33 PM, you wrote:

WS> Thank you Fred, Spencer and Piano Bench,

WS>      I will respond to your various comments (copied below)
WS> all at once rather than separately to make it easier for you all
WS> to follow. Maybe some others out there will benefit from some of
WS> the information here. 

WS>      Since my response is rather lengthy, I have included it
WS> in an attached zip file along with some midi files that
WS> demonstrate some of my points. They sound very nice too so maybe
WS> those who are not that interested in the discussion will at least
WS> enjoy the music!

WS> -Walt
WS> ------------------------
WS> To: "Walter Sharpe" 
WS> From: "Spencer Chase"   Add to Address Book 
WS> Date: Sat, 3 Jan 2004 00:09:40 -0800  
WS> Subject: [disklavier] pedal thumping etc.      
WS>  
WS> Greetings Walter and Group,

WS> I am writing utility programs to modify MIDI files. Is there
WS> some agreement regarding what needs to be done to eliminate
WS> duplicate track data etc for problems like pedal thumping? Is this
WS> an issolated problem or do certain MIDI file conventions (I really
WS> don't understand the need for duplicate pedal information to be in
WS> files to begin with.) produce files that cause problems and is
WS> there a need for utilities to remove or shift these events?

WS> Most of the functions in my utilities are for electronic
WS> piano rolls but I am hoping to add functions for use by DKV
WS> owners. What sorts of functions are needed. I can easily add
WS> functions like merging tracks. I already can do this and can fix
WS> resulting overlaps but have not attempted to remove redundant
WS> events. This is probably not difficult to do but is it necessary?
WS> Does the DKV care if events are duplicated? 
WS> --------------------------
WS> To: disklavier@yahoogroups.com
WS> From: PianoBench@...  Add to Address Book 
WS> Date: Sat, 3 Jan 2004 09:43:46 EST 
WS> Subject: Re: [disklavier] Re: 3 mysterious Disklavier
WS> problems (Pedal Thump Revisited) 

WS> Good morning, everyone.

WS> Walt, I think it is time to call Yamaha Piano Service
WS> directly. You should not have to wait so long for your technician
WS> to take care of this matter.

WS> All pianos will have some level of noise due to their
WS> mechanical nature. Your narrative seems to show that your
WS> instrument is outside of normal parameters.

WS> Yamaha Piano Service: (800) 854-1569 between 8:30-5:00 PST.
WS> Push 2 at the first menu choice and 2 at the second menu choice.

WS> I hasten to add, though, that I think the best test of your
WS> instrument would be to see how it plays song files that were
WS> recorded in realtime by a pianist on a Disklavier. The song files
WS> from 
WS> www.parlorsongs.com were not recorded by a pianist on a
WS> Disklavier. Although they may be enjoyable, they represent a
WS> totally artificial creation.

WS> Regards,
WS> PianoBench 
WS> ----------------------
WS> o: disklavier@yahoogroups.com
WS> From: "fkagel"   Add to Address Book 
WS> Date: Sat, 03 Jan 2004 10:09:07 -0000 
WS> Subject: [disklavier] Re: 3 mysterious Disklavier problems (Pedal Thump Revisited)

WS> Walt,

WS> Starting with the source, the 12th St Rag Midi file is
WS> strictly on/off (up/down) for the sustain pedal, no ands, ifs, or
WS> buts. Therefore, continuous (HP/Half Pedal) is a mute issue with
WS> this particular file.In Cakewalk, View | Events and observe
WS> Controller 64 (the sustain pedal) as 127 or 0 --- right down thump
WS> alley. In Cakewalk or other sequencing program, you can lower the
WS> upper values. You did not delete all of the pedal info as you have
WS> indicated below. I still saw Controller 64 data.

WS> I am not familiar with your model DKV (we have a Mark III),
WS> and not sure of your controller's capabilities with regard to HP
WS> data. What happens if you record something and observe the
WS> Controller values in Cakewalk? Are they not in a variable range?
WS> How does the thumping sound? 

WS> AFAIK, you can redirect only one MIDI channel to the DSK
WS> itself through the Mark III controller functions, so what you are
WS> doing with the midi file is just fine. I was referring to a file
WS> that already had Piano on Channel 1 and 2 and pedal on 3.

WS> Fred 










WS> Do you Yahoo!?
WS> Find out what made the Top Yahoo! Searches of 2003

WS> To Post a message to the group, send it to:   disklavier@...

WS> To Post a private message to Todd Muncy, the group's founder and moderator, send it to:
WS> disklavier-owner@...

WS> To reach our group's web site go to:
WS> http://Yahoogroups.com/group/disklavier

WS> Todd's family web site was completely updated 012/22/03.  It
WS> contains some fun disklavier content and links to midi sites among
WS> many other things, The url is:
WS> http://MuncyFamily.com

WS> THINKING OF LEAVING THE GROUP?
WS> If you are thinking of unsubcribing because you are getting
WS> too much mail, go the the web site and change your email delivery
WS> option instead.  That will fix the problem, while maintaining your
WS> access to the group.  If you insist on leaving us completely send
WS> a blank email to:
WS> disklavier-unsubscribe@... 

WS> Know someone who wants to join?  Have them send a blank email to:
WS> disklavier-subscribe@... or give them this link:
WS> http://Yahoogroups.com/group/disklavier/join





WS> Yahoo! Groups Links
WS> To visit your group on the web, go to:
WS> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/disklavier/
WS>  To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
WS> disklavier-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
WS>  Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.







-- 
Best regards,
Spencer Chase mailto:spencer@...
67550 Bell Springs Rd.
Garberville, CA 95542 Postal service only.
Laytonville, CA 95454 UPS only.
Spencer@...
http://www.spencerserolls.com
http://www.spencerserolls.com/MidiValve.htm
(707) 984-8356


To Post a message to the group, send it to: disklavier@...

To Post a private message to Todd Muncy, the group's founder and moderator, send it to:
disklavier-owner@...

To reach our group's web site go to:
http://Yahoogroups.com/group/disklavier

Todd's family web site was completely updated 012/22/03. It contains some fun disklavier content and links to midi sites among many other things, The url is:
http://MuncyFamily.com 

THINKING OF LEAVING THE GROUP?
If you are thinking of unsubcribing because you are getting too much mail, go the the web site and change your email delivery option instead. That will fix the problem, while maintaining your access to the group. If you insist on leaving us completely send a blank email to:
disklavier-unsubscribe@... 

Know someone who wants to join? Have them send a blank email to:
disklavier-subscribe@... or give them this link:
http://Yahoogroups.com/group/disklavier/join 


Yahoo! Groups Links

To visit your group on the web, go to:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/disklavier/

To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
disklavier-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to:
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ 





---------------------------------
Do you Yahoo!?
Find out what made the Top Yahoo! Searches of 2003

Do you Yahoo!?
Find out what made the Top Yahoo! Searches of 2003

From: "Robert Welcyng" <rwelcyng@...>

> Primarily to Danny:
>
> I believe my Mark II's firmware is up-to-date.  Perhaps it is not.
> However, directing sustain pedal data to MIDI channel #3 should always
> work and will be compatible with all models of DKV--that's the way it's
> done on Yamaha's PianoSoft diskettes.

D: Hi Robert,

D: Thanks again for all the information.You've always gone out of your way to
help us all out here. Is there a possibility that I have some or one of my local
DKV configuration settings set so that my sustain works a bit differently?

D: By the way, since Cakewalk's latest version of Sonar no longer has on-line
support for CAL files, do you have any suggestions as where to turn in creating
new ones if you only have Sonar? I have used Cakewalk for about 12 years, but
have only used CAL for more than a few simple things. I do use mainly Emagic's
Logic, but since it is no longer available for the PC, I need to research CAL a
bit further. I know that you are a Mac user, but just asking...

> For certain MIDI files (e.g., the e-Competition), I have limited the
> sustain pedal data to no less than 20 and no greater than 95.  That has
> reduced the damper noise to my satisfaction, and, without messing up the
> intended pedaling effects.  As you might expect, correct pedal alignment
> would be more critical for this to work.  I did insure that the sustain
> pedal was properly adjusted and calibrated.

D: The mechanical aspect could well be part of the differing results that folks
are occasionally reporting here.

> Trying to modulate on/off pedal data to resemble continuous data strikes
> me as being more trouble than it is worth.

D: Just a thought. Could replace existing 'on-offs' with a *small* series of
controller modulations. May want to experiment with it later, although, then
again, results may differ due to different mechanical aspects of all the pianos.

> I once measured the current and power consummed by the pedal solenoid.
> I'd have to go look for the figures, but it was amazingly low.  I kept
> the solenoid energized for 30 minutes and could feel little rise in
> temperature.  Actually, the solenoid requires the most current while
> raising the dampers; the current needed to hold a position is less.
>
> Occasionally you hear reports of DKVs shutting down due to an
> overheating pedal solenoid. (You are possibly aware that pedal solenoid
> temperature is monitored.) My guess is that that is not due to poor
> solenoid design, but perhaps some mechanical resistance in the linkage
> or problem in the monitoring circuit.

D: Speaking of which, there may a bit of feedback (maybe some hysteresis) from
the pedal (i.e., direct current measurement or proximity sensor?) back to the
driver electronics. (In addition to the temperature monitoring.) When the
sustain pedal is in a 'fixed' position from a 'sustaining' MIDI controller 64
mid-value, and I place a slight amount of pressure on it with my hand, it
'counter-reacts' slowly and eventually settles back to its original position.
All this may be moot right now, but then again, it may make some sense later on.

> One other aside:  The pedal adjustment of my DC3 Mark II was always
> changing because the adjustment nuts were turning with use (despite the
> leather washers and the nuts being set against each other).  I fixed
> that by wrapping plumbers teflon joint seal tape on the adjustment threads.

D: I need the technician that comes over for the occasional tuning to look at
the adjustments on mine. On the other hand, duck/duct tape always worked for
me... ;^)

D: Then again, do most folks mainly experience the 'thumping' on the
sustain-release rather than sustain-on as I do?

D: Danny

Again, primarily to Danny:

R: I haven't discovered any way to set my Mark II to respond to 
continuous pedal data directed to any channel but #3.

R: I reverted from Sonar back to Cakewalk Pro Audio 9 because of Sonar's 
poor support of CAL.  Sonar makes you call a CAL file.  You cannot edit 
and save the CAL from within the application as Pro Audio 9 allows.

R: Yes, you could replace on/off pedals with a less abrupt series.  CAL 
would be a way to go.  You'd want to be careful not to meddle with the 
music.  DKVs whose pedals have been adjusted per spec and have been 
calibrated ought to behave identically.

R: The sustain pedal controller does use feedback to position the 
dampers.  Attached to the linkage (on my Mark II) is an optical scale 
used to feed back position to the pedal controller.  The DKV needs to be 
shown where the half-pedal point is through the calibration procedure.

Bob



Danny wrote:
> From: "Robert Welcyng" <rwelcyng@...>
> 
>>Primarily to Danny:
>>
>>I believe my Mark II's firmware is up-to-date.  Perhaps it is not.
>>However, directing sustain pedal data to MIDI channel #3 should always
>>work and will be compatible with all models of DKV--that's the way it's
>>done on Yamaha's PianoSoft diskettes.
> 
> 
> D: Hi Robert,
> 
> D: Thanks again for all the information.You've always gone out of your way to
> help us all out here. Is there a possibility that I have some or one of my local
> DKV configuration settings set so that my sustain works a bit differently?
> 
> D: By the way, since Cakewalk's latest version of Sonar no longer has on-line
> support for CAL files, do you have any suggestions as where to turn in creating
> new ones if you only have Sonar? I have used Cakewalk for about 12 years, but
> have only used CAL for more than a few simple things. I do use mainly Emagic's
> Logic, but since it is no longer available for the PC, I need to research CAL a
> bit further. I know that you are a Mac user, but just asking...
> 
> 
>>For certain MIDI files (e.g., the e-Competition), I have limited the
>>sustain pedal data to no less than 20 and no greater than 95.  That has
>>reduced the damper noise to my satisfaction, and, without messing up the
>>intended pedaling effects.  As you might expect, correct pedal alignment
>>would be more critical for this to work.  I did insure that the sustain
>>pedal was properly adjusted and calibrated.
> 
> 
> D: The mechanical aspect could well be part of the differing results that folks
> are occasionally reporting here.
> 
> 
>>Trying to modulate on/off pedal data to resemble continuous data strikes
>>me as being more trouble than it is worth.
> 
> 
> D: Just a thought. Could replace existing 'on-offs' with a *small* series of
> controller modulations. May want to experiment with it later, although, then
> again, results may differ due to different mechanical aspects of all the pianos.
> 
> 
>>I once measured the current and power consummed by the pedal solenoid.
>>I'd have to go look for the figures, but it was amazingly low.  I kept
>>the solenoid energized for 30 minutes and could feel little rise in
>>temperature.  Actually, the solenoid requires the most current while
>>raising the dampers; the current needed to hold a position is less.
>>
>>Occasionally you hear reports of DKVs shutting down due to an
>>overheating pedal solenoid. (You are possibly aware that pedal solenoid
>>temperature is monitored.) My guess is that that is not due to poor
>>solenoid design, but perhaps some mechanical resistance in the linkage
>>or problem in the monitoring circuit.
> 
> 
> D: Speaking of which, there may a bit of feedback (maybe some hysteresis) from
> the pedal (i.e., direct current measurement or proximity sensor?) back to the
> driver electronics. (In addition to the temperature monitoring.) When the
> sustain pedal is in a 'fixed' position from a 'sustaining' MIDI controller 64
> mid-value, and I place a slight amount of pressure on it with my hand, it
> 'counter-reacts' slowly and eventually settles back to its original position.
> All this may be moot right now, but then again, it may make some sense later on.
> 
> 
>>One other aside:  The pedal adjustment of my DC3 Mark II was always
>>changing because the adjustment nuts were turning with use (despite the
>>leather washers and the nuts being set against each other).  I fixed
>>that by wrapping plumbers teflon joint seal tape on the adjustment threads.
> 
> 
> D: I need the technician that comes over for the occasional tuning to look at
> the adjustments on mine. On the other hand, duck/duct tape always worked for
> me... ;^)
> 
> D: Then again, do most folks mainly experience the 'thumping' on the
> sustain-release rather than sustain-on as I do?
> 
> D: Danny
> 
> 
> To Post a message to the group, send it to:   disklavier@...
> 
> To Post a private message to Todd Muncy, the group's founder and moderator, send it to:
> disklavier-owner@...
> 
> To reach our group's web site go to:
> http://Yahoogroups.com/group/disklavier
> 
> Todd's family web site was completely updated 012/22/03.  It contains some fun disklavier content and links to midi sites among many other things, The url is:
> http://MuncyFamily.com 
> 
> THINKING OF LEAVING THE GROUP?
> If you are thinking of unsubcribing because you are getting too much mail, go the the web site and change your email delivery option instead.  That will fix the problem, while maintaining your access to the group.  If you insist on leaving us completely send a blank email to:
> disklavier-unsubscribe@... 
> 
> Know someone who wants to join?  Have them send a blank email to:
> disklavier-subscribe@... or give them this link:
> http://Yahoogroups.com/group/disklavier/join 
>  
> 
> Yahoo! Groups Links
> 
> To visit your group on the web, go to:
>  http://groups.yahoo.com/group/disklavier/
> 
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
>  disklavier-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> 
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to:
>  http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ 
> 
> 
> 


-- 
Robert Welcyng
Anchorage, Alaska

Bob, 

Thanks a whole lot! I'm learning quite a bit from you and the others here. Your description of the "HP" option was certainly a lot better than the one in my Disklavier manual. In the chapter on "Midi", on the table describing the "Piano Rcv Ch parameter options" there is a table listing each option with a description next to each one. Next to HP they say "Not Applicable". I guess this is because the MX 500 does not have Half Pedal capability. I can make Ch=HP but it might not do anything. It seems to be as if it was a Ch=1+2+3 option. It does play all 3 piano tracks from Bill Edwards' files when played from my laptop but of course, not when his files are played from a floppy in the Mark II control unit.

However, your suggestion led me to experiment with the Ch=## and Prg(all) options. Suddenly, this makes playing "untamed" midis with the Van Basco player a much more attractive option. Ch=## lets me run everything through the XG player to my stereo system without involving the piano at all. This saves wear and tear on the piano and makes balancing the piano with the other tracks uneccesary. This is a good option where the piano plays a minor role or is not the lead and you like the 100% sampled midi sounds, including the sampled piano parts if any. On the other hand, the Ch=Prg(All) option finds the piano parts wherever they are and plays them on the piano while all other parts go out on the stereo system. To deal with excess velocity, all I have to do is pull the volume slider down a little more than half way and save the setting. At least that's the way it works with my Don Carroll collection. I like Don Carroll's work but fixing it to put on floppies to play on the Disklavier was
 going to be a project. To me, it sounds pretty good with Ch=##.

Walt
--------------------------

To: disklavier@yahoogroups.com 

From: "Robert Welcyng" <rwelcyng@...>
Date: Sun, 04 Jan 2004 09:53:37 -0900 
Subject: Re: [disklavier] Pedal, tracks, channels, velocity, Cakewalk 

For Mark II DKVs capable of continuous sustain pedal, please be aware of 
this:

1) Continuous sustain pedal data directed to MIDI channel #1 will be 
interpreted as on/off.  That is, for data values 0 thru 63, the dampers 
will be completely lowered upon the strings; for data values 64 thru 
127, the dampers will be fully raised off the strings.

2) To obtain continuous sustain pedal movement, the sustain pedal 
continuous data must be directed to MIDI channel #3.  If you are sending 
the data from, say, a laptop to the MIDI In port, you must also set the 
DKV's MIDI IN to "CH=HP" in order for the DKV to respond with continuous 
sustain pedal motion.

In contrast, Mark III DKVs do appear to record and respond to continuous 
pedal data directed to MIDI channel #1. 




---------------------------------
Do you Yahoo!?
Find out what made the Top Yahoo! Searches of 2003

Jean,
     Sure enough, the Stoptime Rag is a good demo of the thump - fun too, just as you suggest. <G>
     Here's another one that demonstrates the thump pretty well: Attached is an excerpt from Richard Carlson's excellent work "optimized for the Disklavier." http://www.geocities.com/~rwcpno/  It's part of Clair de Lune. Normally, there's 
supposed to be quite a bit of quiet time in this piece. However, the pedal thump from my misbehaving MX500 is so bad that it sets all of my strings to vibrating during quiet time. I am sure Richard does not experience the same problem on his beautiful grand. I wonder if other MX500 owners find the thumping in this particular passage of Richard's work 
as objectionable as I do.
     This is not to detract one bit from Richard's work. I read what he does to produce his work. Amazing!!  - Bravo Richard! - His finished product is fabulous and I see that since I visited his site last, he has added a few more files. Richard's files are among the few you can download, copy to a floppy disk, put in the controller and play as-is. I would only maybe do two things: Use Cakewalk | File | Info | Title | to change "untitled" to the name of the piece so the title will display in the controller's window instead of the word "untitled". I might also reduce the velocity a bit to reduce wear on my felt and complaints from my wife who is usually watching TV or sleeping in the next room. <G>
Walt
-----------------
To: disklavier@yahoogroups.com 

From: "Jean Debefve" <kobold@...>
Date: Sun, 04 Jan 2004 19:35:59 -0000 
Subject: [disklavier] Re: Pedal, tracks, channels, velocity, Cakewalk 
...
I especially think of "Stoptime Rag" where silences are
provided for thumping, inside the tune.  "Perfessor" Bill Edwards  has
a very good version of it too. What's more, it could be an effective
and musical  way to use the excess of thumping some of us have
reported, while waiting for the tech's visit !   <G> 
...
Jean Debefve,
Belgium







---------------------------------
Do you Yahoo!?
Find out what made the Top Yahoo! Searches of 2003

From: Walter Sharpe

     Here's another one that demonstrates the thump pretty well: Attached is an
excerpt from Richard Carlson's excellent work "optimized for the Disklavier."
http://www.geocities.com/~rwcpno/  It's part of Clair de Lune. Normally, there's
supposed to be quite a bit of quiet time in this piece. However, the pedal thump
from my misbehaving MX500 is so bad that it sets all of my strings to vibrating
during quiet time.

************

Hi Walter,

The reason that I keep pressing on this issue, our current Yahoo Group 'files'
section is currently being re-organized under Todd's direction. It could also
*possibly* be updated as an option so that some of the current MIDI files inside
this 'files' area be modified to a 'common' medium so that many Disklaviers
could respond similarly (as well as possible) using the same files. Then again,
all of this may not be possible. Spencer is currently working on the velocity
(loudness) and may modify his program for other uses. This would be a great
asset for all of us. It would be nice so that everyone would not need to modify
these same files (reinvent the wheel) to work a bit better. I realize that at
least some of Mark IIs do not work with continuous pedal properly on MIDI
channel 1.

There are two problems that we have been discussing here:

1) velocity data, (loudness) and
2) sustain pedal data ('thumping' noise).

Regarding item #2, I tried the attached 'Clair de Lune' file (ClairBit.mid) and
sure enough, it does 'thump' a fair amount. I then modified the sustain pedal
'off' (the '0' parameter) in your original file to '40' and the thump problem
went totally away on my Mark II XG. (It may not be closing entirely.) This is
all kept on channel 1. I have attached it here as 'ClairBit 2.mid'. For
reference, I have also included Walter's original 'Clair de Lune' MIDI file.

Apparently, there may be some Mark II DKVs that work OK (or somewhat OK) with
continuous pedaling on channel 1. As was pointed out, typically on Mark II DKVs,
for continuous pedaling to work properly, the sustain pedal data should normally
be moved to channel 3.

Robert, I believe the firmware in my Mark II XG is version 1.44, as that was the
latest download that I received from Yamaha which I still on my computer. (I'm
not certain on how to show the firmware revision number on my piano.) I'm just
trying to find some commonality between our systems.

If anyone else on the list has a Mark II XG, please try these two attached files
on their piano and let me know of any pedaling noise differences between the two
files. And, if you know, please report the firmware revision in your MarkII.

All this simply makes life a bit easier in not having to move the controller
data to another channel.

Thanks,

Danny

Greetings

I have several ideas to try for making a MIDI file de-thumper and will
probably have time to work on it soon. I will not have a lot of time
to apply to it so I would like to see if there is a consensus among
users as to what is most likely to work the best.

I have some ideas for adding gradual controllers but timing issues may
make it difficult to perfect so changing controller value and / or
shifting to channel 3 might make sense to try first. I can easily make
a program that sets the on and off levels to any desired level and
switches the events to channel 3. One problem with using a level
greater than 0 for pedal off is that the pedal will stay on forever if
the file is stopped before a pedal with 0 is sent. I can add all pedal
controller off events at the end of each file but this will not help
if a file is not played to completion.

So, if there is a feeling that a program to switch pedal events to
channel 3 with user chosen levels might work, I'll put it together for
testing.
 



-- 
Best regards,
Spencer Chase        mailto:spencer@...
67550 Bell Springs Rd.
Garberville,  CA 95542    Postal service only.
Laytonville, CA 95454    UPS only.
Spencer@...
http://www.spencerserolls.com
http://www.spencerserolls.com/MidiValve.htm
(707) 984-8356

Danny,
 
Absolutely no difference in the way these two versions sound on my MX500 II. It treats a 40 just like a 0.
 
The project you are working on is very worthwhile! 
 
Walt

Danny <simpsond@...> wrote:
.....

The reason that I keep pressing on this issue, our current Yahoo Group 'files'
section is currently being re-organized under Todd's direction. It could also
*possibly* be updated as an option so that some of the current MIDI files inside
this 'files' area be modified to a 'common' medium so that many Disklaviers
could respond similarly (as well as possible) using the same files. Then again,
all of this may not be possible. Spencer is currently working on the velocity
(loudness) and may modify his program for other uses. This would be a great
asset for all of us. It would be nice so that everyone would not need to modify
these same files (reinvent the wheel) to work a bit better. I realize that at
least some of Mark IIs do not work with continuous pedal properly on MIDI
channel 1.

There are two problems that we have been discussing here:

1) velocity data, (loudness) and
2) sustain pedal data ('thumping' noise).

Regarding item #2, I tried the attached 'Clair de Lune' file (ClairBit.mid) and
sure enough, it does 'thump' a fair amount. I then modified the sustain pedal
'off' (the '0' parameter) in your original file to '40' and the thump problem
went totally away on my Mark II XG. (It may not be closing entirely.) This is
all kept on channel 1. I have attached it here as 'ClairBit 2.mid'. For
reference, I have also included Walter's original 'Clair de Lune' MIDI file.

Apparently, there may be some Mark II DKVs that work OK (or somewhat OK) with
continuous pedaling on channel 1. As was pointed out, typically on Mark II DKVs,
for continuous pedaling to work properly, the sustain pedal data should normally
be moved to channel 3.

Robert, I believe the firmware in my Mark II XG is version 1.44, as that was the
latest download that I received from Yamaha which I still on my computer. (I'm
not certain on how to show the firmware revision number on my piano.) I'm just
trying to find some commonality between our systems.

If anyone else on the list has a Mark II XG, please try these two attached files
on their piano and let me know of any pedaling noise differences between the two
files. And, if you know, please report the firmware revision in your MarkII.

All this simply makes life a bit easier in not having to move the controller
data to another channel.

Thanks,

Danny

> ATTACHMENT part 2 audio/mid name=ClairBit 2.mid


> ATTACHMENT part 3 audio/mid name=ClairBit.mid




---------------------------------
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Hotjobs: Enter the "Signing Bonus" Sweepstakes

> Danny <simpsond@...> wrote:

Robert, I believe the firmware in my Mark II XG is version 1.44, as that 
was the
latest download that I received from Yamaha which I still on my 
computer. (I'm
not certain on how to show the firmware revision number on my piano.) 
I'm just
trying to find some commonality between our systems.

R: Danny, I have a Mark II only, not an XG, so we'll surely have 
different ROM versions (and, perhaps, different characteristics).  Mine 
has two different ROMs:

1) PK CTL ROM: Version 2.03 (Apr 4, 1995) (Power on with the L&R buttons 
pressed; press "+" once; press "Song Select Fwd".)

2) Sensor Prgm ROM: Version 1.24 (Dec 14, 1993) (Power on with the L&R 
pressed; press "+" twice; press "Song Select Fwd".)

{My ROMs are just that (not EPROMs) and had to be physically changed out.)

BTW, in the comparisons you two are making and describing, are you 
playing the MIDI files from a diskette in the DKV drive or from an 
external computer?

Bob

Walter Sharpe wrote:
> Danny,
>  
> Absolutely no difference in the way these two versions sound on my MX500 
> II. It treats a 40 just like a 0.
>  
> The project you are working on is very worthwhile!
>  
> Walt
> 
> Danny <simpsond@...> wrote:
> 
>     .....
> 
>     The reason that I keep pressing on this issue, our current Yahoo
>     Group 'files'
>     section is currently being re-organized under Todd's direction. It
>     could also
>     *possibly* be updated as an option so that some of the current MIDI
>     files inside
>     this 'files' area be modified to a 'common' medium so that many
>     Disklaviers
>     could respond similarly (as well as possible) using the same files.
>     Then again,
>     all of this may not be possible. Spencer is currently working on the
>     velocity
>     (loudness) and may modify his program for other uses. This would be
>     a great
>     asset for all of us. It would be nice so that everyone would not
>     need to modify
>     these same files (reinvent the wheel) to work a bit better. I
>     realize that at
>     least some of Mark IIs do not work with continuous pedal properly on
>     MIDI
>     channel 1.
> 
>     There are two problems that we have been discussing here:
> 
>     1) velocity data, (loudness) and
>     2) sustain pedal data ('thumping' noise).
> 
>     Regarding item #2, I tried the attached 'Clair de Lune' file
>     (ClairBit.mid) and
>     sure enough, it does 'thump' a fair amount. I then modified the
>     sustain pedal
>     'off' (the '0' parameter) in your original file to '40' and the
>     thump problem
>     went totally away on my Mark II XG. (It may not be closing
>     entirely.) This is
>     all kept on channel 1. I have attached it here as 'ClairBit 2.mid'. For
>     reference, I have also included Walter's original 'Clair de Lune'
>     MIDI file.
> 
>     Apparently, there may be some Mark II DKVs that work OK (or somewhat
>     OK) with
>     continuous pedaling on channel 1. As was pointed out, typically on
>     Mark II DKVs,
>     for continuous pedaling to work properly, the sustain pedal data
>     should normally
>     be moved to channel 3.
> 
>     Robert, I believe the firmware in my Mark II XG is version 1.44, as
>     that was the
>     latest download that I received from Yamaha which I still on my
>     computer. (I'm
>     not certain on how to show the firmware revision number on my
>     piano.) I'm just
>     trying to find some commonality between our systems.
> 
>     If anyone else on the list has a Mark II XG, please try these two
>     attached files
>     on their piano and let me know of any pedaling noise differences
>     between the two
>     files. And, if you know, please report the firmware revision in your
>     MarkII.
> 
>     All this simply makes life a bit easier in not having to move the
>     controller
>     data to another channel.
> 
>     Thanks,
> 
>     Danny
> 
>      > ATTACHMENT part 2 audio/mid name=ClairBit 2.mid
> 
> 
>      > ATTACHMENT part 3 audio/mid name=ClairBit.mid
> 
> 
> 
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Do you Yahoo!?
> Yahoo! Hotjobs: Enter the "Signing Bonus" Sweepstakes 
> <http://pa.yahoo.com/*http://us.rd.yahoo.com/hotjobs/mail_footer_email/evt=21482/*http://hotjobs.sweepstakes.yahoo.com/signingbonus> 
> 
> 
> To Post a message to the group, send it to:   disklavier@...
> 
> To Post a private message to Todd Muncy, the group's founder and 
> moderator, send it to:
> disklavier-owner@...
> 
> To reach our group's web site go to:
> http://Yahoogroups.com/group/disklavier
> 
> Todd's family web site was completely updated 012/22/03.  It contains 
> some fun disklavier content and links to midi sites among many other 
> things, The url is:
> http://MuncyFamily.com
> 
> THINKING OF LEAVING THE GROUP?
> If you are thinking of unsubcribing because you are getting too much 
> mail, go the the web site and change your email delivery option 
> instead.  That will fix the problem, while maintaining your access to 
> the group.  If you insist on leaving us completely send a blank email to:
> disklavier-unsubscribe@...
> 
> Know someone who wants to join?  Have them send a blank email to:
> disklavier-subscribe@... or give them this link:
> http://Yahoogroups.com/group/disklavier/join
> 
> 
> 
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Yahoo! Groups Links
> 
>     * To visit your group on the web, go to:
>       http://groups.yahoo.com/group/disklavier/
>        
>     * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
>       disklavier-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>       <mailto:disklavier-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com?subject=Unsubscribe>
>        
>     * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
> Service <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/>.
> 
> 


-- 
Robert Welcyng
Anchorage, Alaska

From: "Robert Welcyng" <rwelcyng@...>

Danny <simpsond@...> wrote:

> Robert, I believe the firmware in my Mark II XG is version 1.44, as that
> was the
> latest download that I received from Yamaha which I still on my
> computer. (I'm
> not certain on how to show the firmware revision number on my piano.)
> I'm just
> trying to find some commonality between our systems.
>
> R: Danny, I have a Mark II only, not an XG, so we'll surely have
> different ROM versions (and, perhaps, different characteristics).  Mine
> has two different ROMs:
>
> 1) PK CTL ROM: Version 2.03 (Apr 4, 1995) (Power on with the L&R buttons
> pressed; press "+" once; press "Song Select Fwd".)
>
> 2) Sensor Prgm ROM: Version 1.24 (Dec 14, 1993) (Power on with the L&R
> pressed; press "+" twice; press "Song Select Fwd".)
>
> {My ROMs are just that (not EPROMs) and had to be physically changed out.)
>
> BTW, in the comparisons you two are making and describing, are you
> playing the MIDI files from a diskette in the DKV drive or from an
> external computer?


DD: Hi Robert,

DD: I am using the internal DKV diskette drive for these tests. I have not
experimented with the MIDI port on this since most folks are using their DKVs in
a 'stand-alone' mode.

DD: By the way, I totally agree with a statement that you made yesterday that
the software should *not* be a 'patch' for fixing hardware problems in a case
such as this one, by all means. There seems to be a few folks that are having
problems in getting their sustain pedal(s) aligned properly to minimize this
thumping sound.

DD: Sounds like Yamaha has many changes (or improvements) between their
different DKV models over the years that are difficult to ascertain exactly how
each responds to differing MIDI data, such as continual pedal action and true /
delta velocity. It would be nice to have a list of these differences, but may be
difficult to obtain or create one. Obviously, the newer Mark III would behave
more like the actual MIDI data is telling it to than some of the earlier models.

DD: It is obviously much easier for a MIDI only sound generator module to
'follow' the nuanaces of MIDI data as it doesn't have to work in the 'real
world' with mechanical doings!

DD: Danny

RW >>BTW, in the comparisons you two are making and describing, are you
 >>playing the MIDI files from a diskette in the DKV drive or from an
 >>external computer?

 > DD: I am using the internal DKV diskette drive for these tests. I 
have not
 > experimented with the MIDI port on this since most folks are using 
their DKVs in
 > a 'stand-alone' mode.

RW: My earlier statements regarding the sending of continuous pedal data 
to MIDI channel 3 apply to sending the MIDI data from an external source 
(my laptop with Cakewalk) to the DKV's MIDI input connector.  (This 
skirts around any restrictions on SMF1 files.)

My Mark II DKV's handling of MIDI on a 720K DOS disk in the DKV 
controller is somewhat primitive: It will accept SMF0 files only, 
ignores channel 3 data altogether, and interprets any channel 1 pedal 
data as ON/OFF.  Your Mark II XG could well respond differently.  I 
apologize if we have been comparing apples to oranges.

Not only has Yamaha added features to their newer DKVs while remarkably 
insuring PianoSoft compatibility across the line, but they have added to 
everyone's fun by giving old models new aliases.  One wonders how long 
they can continue to do this before someone finds himself painted into a 
corner.  Perhaps they are still pondering how to squeeze a PianoPro 
album onto a 720K diskette.

Bob

----------------------

Danny wrote:
> From: "Robert Welcyng" <rwelcyng@...>
> 
> Danny <simpsond@...> wrote:
> 
> 
>>Robert, I believe the firmware in my Mark II XG is version 1.44, as that
>>was the
>>latest download that I received from Yamaha which I still on my
>>computer. (I'm
>>not certain on how to show the firmware revision number on my piano.)
>>I'm just
>>trying to find some commonality between our systems.
>>
>>R: Danny, I have a Mark II only, not an XG, so we'll surely have
>>different ROM versions (and, perhaps, different characteristics).  Mine
>>has two different ROMs:
>>
>>1) PK CTL ROM: Version 2.03 (Apr 4, 1995) (Power on with the L&R buttons
>>pressed; press "+" once; press "Song Select Fwd".)
>>
>>2) Sensor Prgm ROM: Version 1.24 (Dec 14, 1993) (Power on with the L&R
>>pressed; press "+" twice; press "Song Select Fwd".)
>>
>>{My ROMs are just that (not EPROMs) and had to be physically changed out.)
>>
>>BTW, in the comparisons you two are making and describing, are you
>>playing the MIDI files from a diskette in the DKV drive or from an
>>external computer?
> 
> 
> 
> DD: Hi Robert,
> 
> DD: I am using the internal DKV diskette drive for these tests. I have not
> experimented with the MIDI port on this since most folks are using their DKVs in
> a 'stand-alone' mode.
> 
> DD: By the way, I totally agree with a statement that you made yesterday that
> the software should *not* be a 'patch' for fixing hardware problems in a case
> such as this one, by all means. There seems to be a few folks that are having
> problems in getting their sustain pedal(s) aligned properly to minimize this
> thumping sound.
> 
> DD: Sounds like Yamaha has many changes (or improvements) between their
> different DKV models over the years that are difficult to ascertain exactly how
> each responds to differing MIDI data, such as continual pedal action and true /
> delta velocity. It would be nice to have a list of these differences, but may be
> difficult to obtain or create one. Obviously, the newer Mark III would behave
> more like the actual MIDI data is telling it to than some of the earlier models.
> 
> DD: It is obviously much easier for a MIDI only sound generator module to
> 'follow' the nuanaces of MIDI data as it doesn't have to work in the 'real
> world' with mechanical doings!
> 
> DD: Danny
> 
> 
> To Post a message to the group, send it to:   disklavier@...
> 
> To Post a private message to Todd Muncy, the group's founder and moderator, send it to:
> disklavier-owner@...
> 
> To reach our group's web site go to:
> http://Yahoogroups.com/group/disklavier
> 
> Todd's family web site was completely updated 012/22/03.  It contains some fun disklavier content and links to midi sites among many other things, The url is:
> http://MuncyFamily.com 
> 
> THINKING OF LEAVING THE GROUP?
> If you are thinking of unsubcribing because you are getting too much mail, go the the web site and change your email delivery option instead.  That will fix the problem, while maintaining your access to the group.  If you insist on leaving us completely send a blank email to:
> disklavier-unsubscribe@... 
> 
> Know someone who wants to join?  Have them send a blank email to:
> disklavier-subscribe@... or give them this link:
> http://Yahoogroups.com/group/disklavier/join 
>  
> 
> Yahoo! Groups Links
> 
> To visit your group on the web, go to:
>  http://groups.yahoo.com/group/disklavier/
> 
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
>  disklavier-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> 
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to:
>  http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ 
> 
> 
> 


-- 
Robert Welcyng
Anchorage, Alaska