Disklavier

I need some help interpreting the damper pedal "half point 
adjustment".  I'll apologize in advance as I'm guessing that this is 
going to entail a bit of a lengthy explanation.

I have a Disklavier MX1Z upright and like many others on this forum, 
I do some of my own DKV calibration.  This is particularly true for 
the DKV pedal regulation (adjustment/calibration procedure) that I 
became quite familiar with through a recent exercise to correct a 
thumping problem I had with the damper (loud) pedal. I'm happy to 
report that the pedal thumping is gone!

Although I've become comfortable doing most of the pedal adjustments 
(damper/loud and shift/soft), I'm trying to get my mind around 
the "half point position" that's part of the damper (loud) pedal 
adjustment procedure.  Although this procedure is simple, I find it 
subjective, fundamentally because I haven't yet developed a solid 
basis for the required adjustment. 

At the end of the DKV damper pedal calibration (maintenance mode 
#3), the loud pedal half point starts automatically.  The DKV will 
play a C major chord and, following this, DKV hammer #88 (DKV note 
C7, i.e., C note, 7th octave) will play once per second.  So what we 
get is the following repeating (60 bpm) pattern:

    C chord
    note C7 (hammer #88)
    note C7 (hammer #88)
    note C7 (hammer #88)
    note C7 (hammer #88)


The display on the DKV controller indicates, "ADJUST 1.5 sec AND 
PRESS [REC]". 

So far so good.

The objective of this procedure is to set the half point value so 
that the dampers silence the strings just as the 2nd time note #88 
is heard.  What I'm trying to ascertain is the degree of "silence" 
specified in this procedure.  

For my first attempt, I set the half point value such that the 
dampers were just starting to dampen the strings exactly when the 
2nd C7 note sounded.  However, when I later played a PianoSoft solo 
piano file, I found that there was too much sustain, i.e., the 
dampers were not engaging quick enough and the strings 
were "ringing" too much.  I played back a variety of solo piano 
pieces, both with continuous pedal data and ON/OFF pedal data, and 
came to the same conclusion.

For my second attempt, I lowered the half point setting such that 
the dampers were completely silencing the strings just as note C7 
sounded for the 2nd time.  This time, when I played a PianoSoft solo 
piano file, I felt the piano sounded too restrained on playback, 
i.e., the strings were being muffled too quickly and/or too much.

For my third attempt, I set a half point value that was a compromise 
between my first two attempts.  It now appears that I'm in the 
right "Ball Park".  However, if I understood the adjustment 
procedure better, I may be able to find the exact "sweet spot".

As it stands with my current setting (a half point value of 43 if I 
recall), I find that song playback is good for files containing 
continuous pedal, but I hear more sustain going on with songs using 
simple ON/OFF damper pedal data.  I'm guessing that this is the 
expected end-result and/or audible difference between continuous and 
ON/OFF pedal data.

So, with the forgoing as background, here are my questions:

1) Can anyone give me some perspective on how much "silence" is 
being specified by the half point adjustment?

2) Out of curiosity, why is the procedure entitled " half point" 
or "adjust 1.5 sec"? Is this to imply that the dampers should be 
engaging the strings around the midpoint between the 1st and 2nd C7 
note? 

3) If the 1st and 2nd notes are being used as a timing reference to 
make the half point adjustment, why are four notes sounded in total 
instead of just two?  I'm thinking there must be some significance 
to having the 3rd and 4th notes?

4) Any comments about the greater amount of string sustain during 
playback of files containing basic ON/OFF pedal data?

5) Can anyone confirm whether every time the pedal measurement 
program is run, it MUST be followed by the "keyboard measurement 
program" (maintenance mode # 5)?

In anticipation of some writing back to suggest that all DKV 
adjustments be left to a "qualified" DKV technician, I'll mention 
that I usually have my RPT (who is wonderful and also the local DKV 
tech) visit my piano anywhere from 2 to 4 times a year. 


Regards,

Robert

I'm not a piano tech, but am rarely at a loss for opinions to offer.

First, don't do any evaluating with on/off pedal files.  The reason is 
that with on/off, the dampers are either completely on the strings or 
completely off the strings--never at the half-pedal point which you are 
interested in.

Are you aware that there is a sustain pedal test song built into the 
DKV?  It is Schumann's Traumerei played by Jorg Demus, an acknowledged 
master of pedaling.  You will find it in the Maintenance Mode.  Use the 
"Forward Song Arrow" to get to program No. 17.  If this piece plays well 
for you, you've got it.  Then if other files don't sound so good, be 
assured that it's not the fault of your adjustment.

I'll give you my thoughts on your questions:

 > 1) Can anyone give me some perspective on how much "silence" is
 > being specified by the half point adjustment?

+++ There is some latitude for taste here.  Cut and try and evaluate 
with Traumerei.  Then you'll know.

 >
 > 2) Out of curiosity, why is the procedure entitled " half point"
 > or "adjust 1.5 sec"? Is this to imply that the dampers should be
 > engaging the strings around the midpoint between the 1st and 2nd C7
 > note?

+++  At a MIDI value of about 20, the dampers are still fully damping; 
at 95, they are fully undamped; at 64, they are slightly damped--half 
damped.  A good pianist controls the damper for the effect she wants 
which may be anywhere in the range of 0 to 127.  The object of the 
procedure is to standardize all DKVs so that the degree of damping at, 
say 64, on your piano is close the same as everyone else's and a piece 
recorded on one DKV reproduces much the same on other DKVs.
 >
 > 3) If the 1st and 2nd notes are being used as a timing reference to
 > make the half point adjustment, why are four notes sounded in total
 > instead of just two?  I'm thinking there must be some significance
 > to having the 3rd and 4th notes?

+++ Yes, it gives you a range to gauge where your present adjustment is. 
  If the chord is still ringing on the 3th beat, you know you don't have 
quite enough damping.
 >
 > 4) Any comments about the greater amount of string sustain during
 > playback of files containing basic ON/OFF pedal data?

+++ It makes no sense to evaluate the half-pedal point with the dampers 
completely opened or closed.
 >
 > 5) Can anyone confirm whether every time the pedal measurement
 > program is run, it MUST be followed by the "keyboard measurement
 > program" (maintenance mode # 5)?

+++ The two adjustments are completely independent.  You can do either 
or both as you chose.
 >
 > In anticipation of some writing back to suggest that all DKV
 > adjustments be left to a "qualified" DKV technician, I'll mention
 > that I usually have my RPT (who is wonderful and also the local DKV
 > tech) visit my piano anywhere from 2 to 4 times a year.

+++ So do I.  No big deal.  The mechanical part on the DC3 is hardest . 
. . prone on the floor with wrenches and a flashlight in your mouth, 
etc.  I made a solenoid gap gauge using a wooden paint stirrer stick.

+++ If you like to experiment, write some MIDI files that hold the 
sustain pedal at 30, 40, . . . 60, and play some notes to hear the 
various degrees of damping.


rrl_edm wrote:
> I need some help interpreting the damper pedal "half point 
> adjustment".  I'll apologize in advance as I'm guessing that this is 
> going to entail a bit of a lengthy explanation.
> 
> I have a Disklavier MX1Z upright and like many others on this forum, 
> I do some of my own DKV calibration.  This is particularly true for 
> the DKV pedal regulation (adjustment/calibration procedure) that I 
> became quite familiar with through a recent exercise to correct a 
> thumping problem I had with the damper (loud) pedal. I'm happy to 
> report that the pedal thumping is gone!
> 
> Although I've become comfortable doing most of the pedal adjustments 
> (damper/loud and shift/soft), I'm trying to get my mind around 
> the "half point position" that's part of the damper (loud) pedal 
> adjustment procedure.  Although this procedure is simple, I find it 
> subjective, fundamentally because I haven't yet developed a solid 
> basis for the required adjustment. 
> 
> At the end of the DKV damper pedal calibration (maintenance mode 
> #3), the loud pedal half point starts automatically.  The DKV will 
> play a C major chord and, following this, DKV hammer #88 (DKV note 
> C7, i.e., C note, 7th octave) will play once per second.  So what we 
> get is the following repeating (60 bpm) pattern:
> 
>     C chord
>     note C7 (hammer #88)
>     note C7 (hammer #88)
>     note C7 (hammer #88)
>     note C7 (hammer #88)
> 
> 
> The display on the DKV controller indicates, "ADJUST 1.5 sec AND 
> PRESS [REC]". 
> 
> So far so good.
> 
> The objective of this procedure is to set the half point value so 
> that the dampers silence the strings just as the 2nd time note #88 
> is heard.  What I'm trying to ascertain is the degree of "silence" 
> specified in this procedure.  
> 
> For my first attempt, I set the half point value such that the 
> dampers were just starting to dampen the strings exactly when the 
> 2nd C7 note sounded.  However, when I later played a PianoSoft solo 
> piano file, I found that there was too much sustain, i.e., the 
> dampers were not engaging quick enough and the strings 
> were "ringing" too much.  I played back a variety of solo piano 
> pieces, both with continuous pedal data and ON/OFF pedal data, and 
> came to the same conclusion.
> 
> For my second attempt, I lowered the half point setting such that 
> the dampers were completely silencing the strings just as note C7 
> sounded for the 2nd time.  This time, when I played a PianoSoft solo 
> piano file, I felt the piano sounded too restrained on playback, 
> i.e., the strings were being muffled too quickly and/or too much.
> 
> For my third attempt, I set a half point value that was a compromise 
> between my first two attempts.  It now appears that I'm in the 
> right "Ball Park".  However, if I understood the adjustment 
> procedure better, I may be able to find the exact "sweet spot".
> 
> As it stands with my current setting (a half point value of 43 if I 
> recall), I find that song playback is good for files containing 
> continuous pedal, but I hear more sustain going on with songs using 
> simple ON/OFF damper pedal data.  I'm guessing that this is the 
> expected end-result and/or audible difference between continuous and 
> ON/OFF pedal data.
> 
> So, with the forgoing as background, here are my questions:
> 
> 1) Can anyone give me some perspective on how much "silence" is 
> being specified by the half point adjustment?
> 
> 2) Out of curiosity, why is the procedure entitled " half point" 
> or "adjust 1.5 sec"? Is this to imply that the dampers should be 
> engaging the strings around the midpoint between the 1st and 2nd C7 
> note? 
> 
> 3) If the 1st and 2nd notes are being used as a timing reference to 
> make the half point adjustment, why are four notes sounded in total 
> instead of just two?  I'm thinking there must be some significance 
> to having the 3rd and 4th notes?
> 
> 4) Any comments about the greater amount of string sustain during 
> playback of files containing basic ON/OFF pedal data?
> 
> 5) Can anyone confirm whether every time the pedal measurement 
> program is run, it MUST be followed by the "keyboard measurement 
> program" (maintenance mode # 5)?
> 
> In anticipation of some writing back to suggest that all DKV 
> adjustments be left to a "qualified" DKV technician, I'll mention 
> that I usually have my RPT (who is wonderful and also the local DKV 
> tech) visit my piano anywhere from 2 to 4 times a year. 
> 
> 
> Regards,
> 
> Robert
> 
> 
> 
> 
> To Post a message to the group, send it to:   disklavier@...
> 
> To Post a private message to Todd Muncy, the group's founder and moderator, send it to:
> disklavier-owner@...
> 
> To reach our group's web site go to:
> http://Yahoogroups.com/group/disklavier
> 
> Todd's family web site was completely updated 012/22/03.  It contains some fun disklavier content and links to midi sites among many other things, The url is:
> http://MuncyFamily.com 
> 
> THINKING OF LEAVING THE GROUP?
> If you are thinking of unsubcribing because you are getting too much mail, go the the web site and change your email delivery option instead.  That will fix the problem, while maintaining your access to the group.  If you insist on leaving us completely send a blank email to:
> disklavier-unsubscribe@... 
> 
> Know someone who wants to join?  Have them send a blank email to:
> disklavier-subscribe@... or give them this link:
> http://Yahoogroups.com/group/disklavier/join 
>  
> Yahoo! Groups Links
> 
> 
> 
>  
> 
> 


-- 
Robert Welcyng
Anchorage, Alaska

Thanks so much to Robert Welcyng for the info.  Your opinions are 
always appreciated and very helpful.  A few additional comments in 
response to yours.

Yes, I'm aware that Traumerei can be found in the DKV Maintenance 
Mode #17.  However, I didn't know that Jorg Demus played it, though 
I believe I also have this song on a Yamaha Sampler disk that might 
indicate this.


QUESTION #1 RW wrote:  "There is some latitude for taste here.  Cut 
and try and evaluate with Traumerei.  Then you'll know."

FURTHER:  I appreciate that there is some latitude here.  I still 
would appreciate some insight on what "others" do. When performing 
the half point adjustment, please describe how much dampening you 
typically shoot for using the chord + 4 notes method (strings 
completely silent on 2nd note, strings stop ringing between note 2 
and 3, etc.).  I realize that this is easy to hear but difficult to 
describe.  I would be curious to hear from others on this too?  
Robert W.? Carol B.?


QUESTION #2 RW wrote:  "...at 64, they are slightly damped-half 
damped

FURTHER:  Good explanation.  Makes perfect sense.


QUESTION #3 RW wrote:  "...it gives you a range to gauge where your 
present adjustment is.  If the chord is still ringing on the 3rd 
beat, you know you don't have quite enough damping."

FURTHER:  Okay then. Total silence by the third note.


ADDITIONALLY RW wrote: "I made a solenoid gap gauge using a wooden 
paint stirrer stick."

FURTHER: Interesting.  I rummaged though my house and was only able 
to come up with a few metal objects that provided the exact 
dimensions I was looking for.  I recall looking at an old paint stir 
stick but gave up on it as it was very used.  I should follow this 
up as the paint stick seems about the right dimension and, better 
yet, made from an insulator.  Wish I could get hold of a yellow 
plastic Yamaha gauge.


ADDITIONALLY RW wrote:  "If you like to experiment, write some MIDI 
files that hold the sustain pedal at 30, 40, . . . 60, and play some 
notes to hear the various degrees of damping."

FURTHER:  I do already have a few files I previously created with a 
range of CC# 64 values to better explore how my DKV behaved.  These 
files were created as a result of all the discussion in Dec (2003) 
about pedal thumping and related matters. I'll put the files to use 
again.

Thanks again!


Regards,

Robert

> please describe how much dampening you
 > typically shoot for using the chord + 4 notes method (strings
 > completely silent on 2nd note, strings stop ringing between note 2
 > and 3, etc.).  I realize that this is easy to hear but difficult to
 > describe.

+++ It's probably down about 40 or 50 dB from the peak. Hope that helps.

Bob

rrl_edm wrote:
> 
> Thanks so much to Robert Welcyng for the info.  Your opinions are 
> always appreciated and very helpful.  A few additional comments in 
> response to yours.
> 
> Yes, I'm aware that Traumerei can be found in the DKV Maintenance 
> Mode #17.  However, I didn't know that Jorg Demus played it, though 
> I believe I also have this song on a Yamaha Sampler disk that might 
> indicate this.
> 
> 
> QUESTION #1 RW wrote:  "There is some latitude for taste here.  Cut 
> and try and evaluate with Traumerei.  Then you'll know."
> 
> FURTHER:  I appreciate that there is some latitude here.  I still 
> would appreciate some insight on what "others" do. When performing 
> the half point adjustment, please describe how much dampening you 
> typically shoot for using the chord + 4 notes method (strings 
> completely silent on 2nd note, strings stop ringing between note 2 
> and 3, etc.).  I realize that this is easy to hear but difficult to 
> describe.  I would be curious to hear from others on this too?  
> Robert W.? Carol B.?
> 
> 
> QUESTION #2 RW wrote:  "...at 64, they are slightly damped-half 
> damped
> 
> FURTHER:  Good explanation.  Makes perfect sense.
> 
> 
> QUESTION #3 RW wrote:  "...it gives you a range to gauge where your 
> present adjustment is.  If the chord is still ringing on the 3rd 
> beat, you know you don't have quite enough damping."
> 
> FURTHER:  Okay then. Total silence by the third note.
> 
> 
> ADDITIONALLY RW wrote: "I made a solenoid gap gauge using a wooden 
> paint stirrer stick."
> 
> FURTHER: Interesting.  I rummaged though my house and was only able 
> to come up with a few metal objects that provided the exact 
> dimensions I was looking for.  I recall looking at an old paint stir 
> stick but gave up on it as it was very used.  I should follow this 
> up as the paint stick seems about the right dimension and, better 
> yet, made from an insulator.  Wish I could get hold of a yellow 
> plastic Yamaha gauge.
> 
> 
> ADDITIONALLY RW wrote:  "If you like to experiment, write some MIDI 
> files that hold the sustain pedal at 30, 40, . . . 60, and play some 
> notes to hear the various degrees of damping."
> 
> FURTHER:  I do already have a few files I previously created with a 
> range of CC# 64 values to better explore how my DKV behaved.  These 
> files were created as a result of all the discussion in Dec (2003) 
> about pedal thumping and related matters. I'll put the files to use 
> again.
> 
> Thanks again!
> 
> 
> Regards,
> 
> Robert
> 
> 
> 
> 
> To Post a message to the group, send it to:   disklavier@...
> 
> To Post a private message to Todd Muncy, the group's founder and moderator, send it to:
> disklavier-owner@...
> 
> To reach our group's web site go to:
> http://Yahoogroups.com/group/disklavier
> 
> Todd's family web site was completely updated 012/22/03.  It contains some fun disklavier content and links to midi sites among many other things, The url is:
> http://MuncyFamily.com 
> 
> THINKING OF LEAVING THE GROUP?
> If you are thinking of unsubcribing because you are getting too much mail, go the the web site and change your email delivery option instead.  That will fix the problem, while maintaining your access to the group.  If you insist on leaving us completely send a blank email to:
> disklavier-unsubscribe@... 
> 
> Know someone who wants to join?  Have them send a blank email to:
> disklavier-subscribe@... or give them this link:
> http://Yahoogroups.com/group/disklavier/join 
>  
> Yahoo! Groups Links
> 
> 
> 
>  
> 
> 


-- 
Robert Welcyng
Anchorage, Alaska

First of all, the physical parts of the pedal have to
be in adjustment; a hair of lost most motion when the
pedal is pressed and the solenoid gap set at the proper
clearance.  The half point was a number that a
technician had to calculate when Disklaviers first came
out. We don't have to do that anymore.  The dampers
should start away when the hammer is half way the
distance to the strings.  This calibration you do with
the Loud pedal only sets a value to be considered in
the piano tables condition calculation.  The number you
set makes a difference whether or not you get errors
when you run keyboard measurement.

The high C note you hear is only to let the person
doing the calibration hear a 1 second mark.  The
dampers are to shut off the strings at about 2 seconds.
You have to enter the number while the high C notes are
sounding; that's why they go on several times.  If the
number you choose is less than 40 or greater than 55,
you will probably get a pass number when doing the
keyboard measurement program.

The whole idea of the Loud pedal adjustment program is
to let the DKV play even when the pedal is out of
adjustment.  If the pedal goes too far out of
adjustment, then you will get error messages.  Since
your technician regularly visists your piano, there
should be no reason for you to do this yourself.

Carol Beigel