Disklavier

I did some tests -- saved a "normal" performance played on my DC5A and
analyzed the midi velocities... When I brought it over to my 
professional
midi rig (playing back from LogicPro or ProTools into a GigaStudio) - 
the
velocities were SIGNIFICANTLY lower. As in, playing ff, maximum 90-100. 
mf
playing was more like 60-75. These velocities playback rather "wimpy"  
on
the samplers or sound modules.

Midi standards are quite open to interpretation.  It has always been 
Yamaha's practice to have the velocity numbers be smaller than most 
other manufacturer's scaling.  Yamaha seems to consider midi velocity 
127 as 'overdriven' rather than full volume.  If you record on a Yamaha 
system and than play on another you will need to re-scale the 
velocities (simple in software) to make them play as expected.  
Yamaha's whole method of addressing MIDI is more complicated than 
others ... at least thats how it was in the old days when I used to 
actually look at hex code for MIDI .... thankfully no more!

Don

Velocity does not work the same on a real acoustic
piano as say an electronic keyboard.  A MIDI velocity
value from 1 to 128 is a value for volume.
Electronically the higher the number the louder it
plays.

Not so on a mechanical piano action because there are
so many variables.  First, no matter how hard you hit
the piano key, the escapement will kick in before the
piano hammer ever hits the string.  It's like running
really fast to do a long jump, but tripping as you fly
into the air.  The loudness (volume) of the piano sound
is often a factor of hard the piano hammer felt is, the
tension of the stringing scale, and how well the
soundboard vibrates.  Some of those little GP1 pianos
with really hard hammers play so much louder than a 7
or 9 foot piano with softer felt, but the larger pianos
will have a greater dynamic range of volume and sound.
Also, the repetition levers in a grand piano action are
spring-loaded.  All of these mechanical goodies give a
pianist more  control of their piano playing dynamics,
but this is tough to measure for a MIDI value.  Some
Disklaviers with keys sensors only measure this
mechanical action of the key.  The Disklaviers that
also have hammer sensors will also measure the speed at
which the hammer travels toward the strings, then do an
algorythm with the key sensor.

This is why there is a huge caution about downloaded
MIDI files from the internet playing in Disklaviers (or
PianoDisc and QRS Pianomation).  If a MIDI file was
created on an electronic keyboard at a velocity of 128,
this will damage a piano action.  I really don't like
to see Disklaviers played beyond a MIDI value of 100.
I think Yamaha has designed a "limiter" into the
recording of a Disklavier so that no matter how loudly
you play the piano, you will not get a velocity of
128 - more likely 100.

Carol Beigel

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Don" <imakenoise@...>
To: <disklavier@...>
Sent: Saturday, May 22, 2004 10:44 AM
Subject: [disklavier] Midi velocity


> I did some tests -- saved a "normal" performance
played on my DC5A and
> analyzed the midi velocities... When I brought it
over to my
> professional
> midi rig (playing back from LogicPro or ProTools into
a GigaStudio) -
> the
> velocities were SIGNIFICANTLY lower. As in, playing
ff, maximum 90-100.
> mf
> playing was more like 60-75. These velocities
playback rather "wimpy"
> on
> the samplers or sound modules.
>
> Midi standards are quite open to interpretation.  It
has always been
> Yamaha's practice to have the velocity numbers be
smaller than most
> other manufacturer's scaling.  Yamaha seems to
consider midi velocity
> 127 as 'overdriven' rather than full volume.  If you
record on a Yamaha
> system and than play on another you will need to
re-scale the
> velocities (simple in software) to make them play as
expected.
> Yamaha's whole method of addressing MIDI is more
complicated than
> others ... at least thats how it was in the old days
when I used to
> actually look at hex code for MIDI .... thankfully no
more!
>
> Don

Just for the record, the highest possible MIDI note-on velocity is 127 
decimal, and the lowest, 0 (note-off).  (Velocity values are represented 
by seven bits within a Note On Message. The binary number 1111111 equals 
2^7 - 1, or decimal 127.)

If a note of velocity 90 does not damage your DKV, then neither will a 
note of velocity 127.  The reason is that the designers of the DKV have 
built in MIDI-velocity-limiting.  With the DKV Volume Control set at 
"0", a note of velocity 127 will strike the strings no harder than a 
note of velocity 90.  Therefore, you need have no special concern about 
the source of the MIDI file, be it PianoDisc, QRS Pianomation, 
electronic keyboard, or found on the Internet.

However, I believe most of us would agree with Carol that there is 
little benefit, mechanically or musically, in driving a DKV to the 
maximum.  Before playing a newly acquired MIDI file, take the precaution 
of reducing the DKV Volume Control to its minimum.  That has the effect 
of setting all note velocities to about 25.

The above statements are based on measurements made on my Mark II DC3. 
I assume that they apply as well to other DKV models, but I cannot say 
that with certainty.

I believe the original concern of this thread is "What range of note-on 
velocities is appropriate to the DKV?"  For guidance, I suggest using 
that fine downloadable tool from this site, "Veloset."  Convert some 
PianoSoft (solo) pieces to MIDI and open them with Veloset.  Observe the 
distributions and ranges of the note velocities. Now do the same for 
your "foreign" MIDI file.  This will give you an idea of how you might 
modify the latter's velocity distribution to play well on your DKV.

BTW, I said "solo" above.  If you open a PianoSoft Plus song, Veloset 
will display the combined velocity distributions of both the acoustic 
and tone module tracks and bias your impression of the acoustic 
distribution.

I agree with Carol that for most MIDI keyboards and sound cards, 
velocity is interpreted as corresponding to loudness. Generally, 0 is 
silent, 64 is mezzo piano (mf), and 127, fortississimo (fff).  The 
Disklavier has quite different velocity characteristics.  Velocities 
ranging from 20 to 90 are more appropriate for the DKV.  Even then, for 
casual listening, you will probably wish to reduce the DKV's Volume 
Control and sacrifice some acoustic dynamic range.

In anticipation of the next question, there is no pat formula for 
adjusting the velocity distribution of a MIDI file.  Using a sequencer, 
such as Cakewalk or Power Tracks, you can scale and/or offset velocities 
to your heart's delight, but it is an art to make the file even approach 
convincingly the sound of a well-performed recording on a DKV.

Carol Beigel wrote:
> Velocity does not work the same on a real acoustic
> piano as say an electronic keyboard.  A MIDI velocity
> value from 1 to 128 is a value for volume.
> Electronically the higher the number the louder it
> plays.
> 
> Not so on a mechanical piano action because there are
> so many variables.  First, no matter how hard you hit
> the piano key, the escapement will kick in before the
> piano hammer ever hits the string.  It's like running
> really fast to do a long jump, but tripping as you fly
> into the air.  The loudness (volume) of the piano sound
> is often a factor of hard the piano hammer felt is, the
> tension of the stringing scale, and how well the
> soundboard vibrates.  Some of those little GP1 pianos
> with really hard hammers play so much louder than a 7
> or 9 foot piano with softer felt, but the larger pianos
> will have a greater dynamic range of volume and sound.
> Also, the repetition levers in a grand piano action are
> spring-loaded.  All of these mechanical goodies give a
> pianist more  control of their piano playing dynamics,
> but this is tough to measure for a MIDI value.  Some
> Disklaviers with keys sensors only measure this
> mechanical action of the key.  The Disklaviers that
> also have hammer sensors will also measure the speed at
> which the hammer travels toward the strings, then do an
> algorythm with the key sensor.
> 
> This is why there is a huge caution about downloaded
> MIDI files from the internet playing in Disklaviers (or
> PianoDisc and QRS Pianomation).  If a MIDI file was
> created on an electronic keyboard at a velocity of 128,
> this will damage a piano action.  I really don't like
> to see Disklaviers played beyond a MIDI value of 100.
> I think Yamaha has designed a "limiter" into the
> recording of a Disklavier so that no matter how loudly
> you play the piano, you will not get a velocity of
> 128 - more likely 100.
> 
> Carol Beigel
> 
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Don" <imakenoise@...>
> To: <disklavier@...>
> Sent: Saturday, May 22, 2004 10:44 AM
> Subject: [disklavier] Midi velocity
> 
> 
> 
>>I did some tests -- saved a "normal" performance
> 
> played on my DC5A and
> 
>>analyzed the midi velocities... When I brought it
> 
> over to my
> 
>>professional
>>midi rig (playing back from LogicPro or ProTools into
> 
> a GigaStudio) -
> 
>>the
>>velocities were SIGNIFICANTLY lower. As in, playing
> 
> ff, maximum 90-100.
> 
>>mf
>>playing was more like 60-75. These velocities
> 
> playback rather "wimpy"
> 
>>on
>>the samplers or sound modules.
>>
>>Midi standards are quite open to interpretation.  It
> 
> has always been
> 
>>Yamaha's practice to have the velocity numbers be
> 
> smaller than most
> 
>>other manufacturer's scaling.  Yamaha seems to
> 
> consider midi velocity
> 
>>127 as 'overdriven' rather than full volume.  If you
> 
> record on a Yamaha
> 
>>system and than play on another you will need to
> 
> re-scale the
> 
>>velocities (simple in software) to make them play as
> 
> expected.
> 
>>Yamaha's whole method of addressing MIDI is more
> 
> complicated than
> 
>>others ... at least thats how it was in the old days
> 
> when I used to
> 
>>actually look at hex code for MIDI .... thankfully no
> 
> more!
> 
>>Don
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> To Post a message to the group, send it to:   disklavier@...
> 
> To Post a private message to Todd Muncy, the group's founder and moderator, send it to:
> disklavier-owner@...
> 
> To reach our group's web site go to:
> http://Yahoogroups.com/group/disklavier
> 
> Todd's family web site was completely updated 012/22/03.  It contains some fun disklavier content and links to midi sites among many other things, The url is:
> http://MuncyFamily.com 
> 
> THINKING OF LEAVING THE GROUP?
> If you are thinking of unsubcribing because you are getting too much mail, go the the web site and change your email delivery option instead.  That will fix the problem, while maintaining your access to the group.  If you insist on leaving us completely send a blank email to:
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> 
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>  
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> 
> 
> 
>  
> 
> 


-- 
Robert Welcyng
Anchorage, Alaska

On Sat, 22 May 2004, Robert Welcyng wrote:

> Just for the record, the highest possible MIDI note-on velocity is 127 
> decimal, and the lowest, 0 (note-off).  (Velocity values are represented 
> by seven bits within a Note On Message. The binary number 1111111 equals 
> 2^7 - 1, or decimal 127.)
> 
> If a note of velocity 90 does not damage your DKV, then neither will a 
> note of velocity 127.  The reason is that the designers of the DKV have 
> built in MIDI-velocity-limiting.  With the DKV Volume Control set at 
> "0", a note of velocity 127 will strike the strings no harder than a 
> note of velocity 90.  Therefore, you need have no special concern about 
> the source of the MIDI file, be it PianoDisc, QRS Pianomation, 
> electronic keyboard, or found on the Internet.

Is that really correct? I was under the impression that the limitation you
hear is due to the solenoids running out of power, but I am probably wrong
on that. There are papers on Citeseer, such as Goebl & Bresin (see
http://citeseer.ist.psu.edu/585474.html) that show midi velocity vs dB SPL
for a Mark II grand. Their plots show an increase in SPL of staccato notes
between 100 and 120. What a MarkIII or Pro can do I have no idea.

> However, I believe most of us would agree with Carol that there is 
> little benefit, mechanically or musically, in driving a DKV to the 
> maximum.  Before playing a newly acquired MIDI file, take the precaution 
> of reducing the DKV Volume Control to its minimum.  That has the effect 
> of setting all note velocities to about 25.

I'll agree - it's not worth driving the DKV to its maximum. On my MPX1Z
(Mark IIXG U1) the DKV volume control depresses the soft pedal and I don't
think it does anything to the note velocities. If I play something
energetic back then you can still see the mechanism being tortured -
obviously on the grand's it wouldn't have quite the same effect. That
said, the solenoids aren't capable of producing the same velocities that a
human could produce at the keys, so it's no different to someone sat there
bashing away is it?

Anyone know why Yamaha appears to have implemented the system differently, 
or if I just misinterpretted what was happening when I lower the volume 
control on my piano?

Thanks

James

We had pianist Mei-Ting Sun here for a week (winner of the last piano-
e-comp), and he regularly hit velocities over 120 (multiply by 8 for 
the XP Mode equivalent) in normal concert playing on our nine-foot 
Pro.  That is certainly a big, loud, hit-you-in-the-chest sound, but 
we can readily play it back on the Pro, and the playback matches what 
we heard in the hall as he played Chopin Etudes live.

- John Q.
Zenph Studios

James Fry wrote:
> On Sat, 22 May 2004, Robert Welcyng wrote:
> 
>There are papers on Citeseer, such as Goebl & Bresin (see
 > http://citeseer.ist.psu.edu/585474.html) that show midi velocity vs 
dB SPL
 > for a Mark II grand. Their plots show an increase in SPL of staccato 
notes
 > between 100 and 120.

REW: James, I assume you are referring to the graph of Figure 4 in the 
paper written by Goebel and Bresin.  Those graphs relate the sound power 
output to the measured (by the DKV) MIDI note-on velocity when the 
instrument is played manually.  Note that keys struck with a velocity of 
about 100 produced SPLs of about 100 dB and that notes of up to 110 SPL 
were produced manually.

Now look at the graph of Figure 5.  The manually played notes of 100 SPL 
  (which ideally would have reproduced at 100 SPL) actually reproduced 
in the range of about 92 to 102 SPL.  You can see the limiting effect in 
that area of the graph where the still louder original notes were not 
reproduced proportionally louder (meaning a greater reproduction error).

A graph that might have better depicted the Disklavier's limiting at 
higher velocities, had it been included by the authors, would be a plot 
of the SPL errors in the reproduced notes versus the velocity values of 
the corresponding notes.

Bob




>>Just for the record, the highest possible MIDI note-on velocity is 127 
>>decimal, and the lowest, 0 (note-off).  (Velocity values are represented 
>>by seven bits within a Note On Message. The binary number 1111111 equals 
>>2^7 - 1, or decimal 127.)
>>
>>If a note of velocity 90 does not damage your DKV, then neither will a 
>>note of velocity 127.  The reason is that the designers of the DKV have 
>>built in MIDI-velocity-limiting.  With the DKV Volume Control set at 
>>"0", a note of velocity 127 will strike the strings no harder than a 
>>note of velocity 90.  Therefore, you need have no special concern about 
>>the source of the MIDI file, be it PianoDisc, QRS Pianomation, 
>>electronic keyboard, or found on the Internet.
> 
> 
> Is that really correct? I was under the impression that the limitation you
> hear is due to the solenoids running out of power, but I am probably wrong
> on that. There are papers on Citeseer, such as Goebl & Bresin (see
> http://citeseer.ist.psu.edu/585474.html) that show midi velocity vs dB SPL
> for a Mark II grand. Their plots show an increase in SPL of staccato notes
> between 100 and 120. What a MarkIII or Pro can do I have no idea.
> 
> 
>>However, I believe most of us would agree with Carol that there is 
>>little benefit, mechanically or musically, in driving a DKV to the 
>>maximum.  Before playing a newly acquired MIDI file, take the precaution 
>>of reducing the DKV Volume Control to its minimum.  That has the effect 
>>of setting all note velocities to about 25.
> 
> 
> I'll agree - it's not worth driving the DKV to its maximum. On my MPX1Z
> (Mark IIXG U1) the DKV volume control depresses the soft pedal and I don't
> think it does anything to the note velocities. If I play something
> energetic back then you can still see the mechanism being tortured -
> obviously on the grand's it wouldn't have quite the same effect. That
> said, the solenoids aren't capable of producing the same velocities that a
> human could produce at the keys, so it's no different to someone sat there
> bashing away is it?
> 
> Anyone know why Yamaha appears to have implemented the system differently, 
> or if I just misinterpretted what was happening when I lower the volume 
> control on my piano?
> 
> Thanks
> 
> James
> 
> 
> 
> To Post a message to the group, send it to:   disklavier@...
> 
> To Post a private message to Todd Muncy, the group's founder and moderator, send it to:
> disklavier-owner@...
> 
> To reach our group's web site go to:
> http://Yahoogroups.com/group/disklavier
> 
> Todd's family web site was completely updated 012/22/03.  It contains some fun disklavier content and links to midi sites among many other things, The url is:
> http://MuncyFamily.com 
> 
> THINKING OF LEAVING THE GROUP?
> If you are thinking of unsubcribing because you are getting too much mail, go the the web site and change your email delivery option instead.  That will fix the problem, while maintaining your access to the group.  If you insist on leaving us completely send a blank email to:
> disklavier-unsubscribe@... 
> 
> Know someone who wants to join?  Have them send a blank email to:
> disklavier-subscribe@... or give them this link:
> http://Yahoogroups.com/group/disklavier/join 
>  
> Yahoo! Groups Links
> 
> 
> 
>  
> 
> 


-- 
Robert Welcyng
Anchorage, Alaska