Yahoo Groups archive

Disklavier

Index last updated: 2026-04-28 23:20 UTC

Thread

Performer user encounters Disklavier

Performer user encounters Disklavier

2004-10-03 by Karl M

Hi all.  I'm  a decent keyboard player with a fairly extensive MIDI 
studio - 88 note controller, rack of MIDI modules including Kurzweil 
and two from E-Mu Systems, a tremendous Class A amp / speaker combo, 
and Mark of the Unicorn Performer 6 running on an 8 year old MAC.

A good friend of mine who has long liked my music just purchased a 
Yamaha Disklavier Mark III.. a gorgeous piano, not even considering 
the amazing electronics hung off it.

At any rate, I have a lot of solo piano pieces recorded in my 
Performer environment, and we're talking about me transferring some 
of the better piano pieces from Performer to floppy for the Yamaha. 
If it sounds as good as I hope it does, I'll drag my CD recorder and 
a couple of mics over there.. instant piano solo album. 

We've been doing the reading, and I know it handles Type 0 and 1 
standard MIDI format (SMF) disks in PC or MAC format.  The thing I'm 
not sure of, is WHICH MAC format.. mine dates from 1996 and is 
running OS 7.something.  No DOS floppy emulation.

I could email the .MID file to my PC and write the floppy there.

Also, I had the habit of ignoring/muting Performer's 'metronome' 
function, just leaving it run / record at 120BPM.. assuming I solve 
the physical floppy format conversion, will the Disklavier have a 
problem playing MIDI files not recorded listening to the 'beat'?

And I assume the piano part should be on Track 1 assigned to MIDI 
channel 1.  I'll trim out the 'patch change' command but leave the 
pedal Continuous Controller (CC64) and Volume (CC7) information in 
the track.  Correct?

thanks!

Karl

RE: [disklavier] Performer user encounters Disklavier

2004-10-03 by mrtnjpr

Karl,  
 
I think I can answer some of the questions for you....
 
If you don't have the MAC tool that will allow you to create PC format
floppies, then you will have to e-mail them to your PC in their MIDI
(.mid) format.  
I have not found the DiskClavier to be able to read native MAC format
disks.
 
I recall it being a tool available for OS 9 and back, but I forget if it
was optional since the systems I used had it already installed)  If you
have the tool you can format a PC disk in it and then copy the files
over.  Note that the files you want to use will be in a sub-folder on
the disk, NOT in the root where you would expect them. Also, because of
this I DO NOT recommend trying to use this disk directly.  The
Diskclavier wants files in the root folder.  You can of course simply
use the PC to move the files to the root and delete the files and
folders that the MAC created, leaving JUST the midi files themselves.
 
If your PC has a sound card, then you can test the file you sent there
to see that it will function properly before going to floppy.  Obviously
this would only test that you received the file properly and that it
"plays".
 
Once there you simply copy the file to the disk (if you had to e-mail
it).  Be sure that the extension is in ".mid"  NOT the common MAC form
of ".midi".
 
On the "metronome" function, I have not found this to be an issue with
the work I have done.  You won't know until you just try it.  You're not
going to hurt anything by testing.
 
You are correct about making use of TRACK 1 for the piano, however you
will find that you can use other tracks except track 10 as well.  Track
10 is used for the drum track, so depending on your work it may not even
apply.
 
I recommend simply taking one of your works transfering it to floppy and
trying it before considering making any other changes.  This way you may
find that changes you need to make before making anything that wasn't
required.
 
Good luck and have fun!
 
Bryan
Show quoted textHide quoted text
-----Original Message-----
From: Karl M [mailto:mkarl2@...] 
Sent: Sunday, October 03, 2004 1:22 AM
To: disklavier@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [disklavier] Performer user encounters Disklavier



Hi all.  I'm  a decent keyboard player with a fairly extensive MIDI 
studio - 88 note controller, rack of MIDI modules including Kurzweil 
and two from E-Mu Systems, a tremendous Class A amp / speaker combo, 
and Mark of the Unicorn Performer 6 running on an 8 year old MAC.

A good friend of mine who has long liked my music just purchased a 
Yamaha Disklavier Mark III.. a gorgeous piano, not even considering 
the amazing electronics hung off it.

At any rate, I have a lot of solo piano pieces recorded in my 
Performer environment, and we're talking about me transferring some 
of the better piano pieces from Performer to floppy for the Yamaha. 
If it sounds as good as I hope it does, I'll drag my CD recorder and 
a couple of mics over there.. instant piano solo album. 

We've been doing the reading, and I know it handles Type 0 and 1 
standard MIDI format (SMF) disks in PC or MAC format.  The thing I'm 
not sure of, is WHICH MAC format.. mine dates from 1996 and is 
running OS 7.something.  No DOS floppy emulation.

I could email the .MID file to my PC and write the floppy there.

Also, I had the habit of ignoring/muting Performer's 'metronome' 
function, just leaving it run / record at 120BPM.. assuming I solve 
the physical floppy format conversion, will the Disklavier have a 
problem playing MIDI files not recorded listening to the 'beat'?

And I assume the piano part should be on Track 1 assigned to MIDI 
channel 1.  I'll trim out the 'patch change' command but leave the 
pedal Continuous Controller (CC64) and Volume (CC7) information in 
the track.  Correct?

thanks!

Karl

Re: [disklavier] Performer user encounters Disklavier

2004-10-03 by Robert Welcyng

Karl,

One approach would be to copy a few of your MIDI files to a 
DOS-formatted diskette and try playing (reproducing) them on your 
friend's Disklavier.  As you mentioned, you may need to send those files 
as e-mail attachments to someone who can DOS-format a diskette.  The 
file names must have the extension ".mid".

While not absolutely necessary with the Mark III, directing the piano 
parts to MIDI channel #1 will simplify your test.

In order to achieve a good-sounding result, the note-on velocities 
should be within the range of 20 to 95.

The Disklavier is capable of so-called "continuous pedal" which responds 
to intermediate pedal values between 0 and 127. The Mark III should 
respond to the continuous pedal values, directed to channel #1, in your 
files.

The metronome setting will not be an issue or cause any problem to 
you--120 BPM is fine.  The Disklavier will honor the tempo value it 
finds in your MIDI file.

The Disklavier, when recording, inserts its own patch information in a 
MIDI file. That patch info is not essential for what you have proposed. 
You probably should, as you mentioned, remove the patch information from 
your test files.

Probably your biggest hurdle will become apparent from the mismatch 
between the characteristics of your keyboard and tone modules and the 
Disklavier.  You may find that the artistic quality of a performance is 
quite sensitive to those differences.

In principle, MIDI files can be edited to match the characteristics of 
the Disklavier.  In reality, the most efficient and practical way to 
achieve a truly artistic result on a Disklavier is by performing and 
recording the songs on a Disklavier.


Karl M wrote:
> 
> Hi all.  I'm  a decent keyboard player with a fairly extensive MIDI 
> studio - 88 note controller, rack of MIDI modules including Kurzweil 
> and two from E-Mu Systems, a tremendous Class A amp / speaker combo, 
> and Mark of the Unicorn Performer 6 running on an 8 year old MAC.
> 
> A good friend of mine who has long liked my music just purchased a 
> Yamaha Disklavier Mark III.. a gorgeous piano, not even considering 
> the amazing electronics hung off it.
> 
> At any rate, I have a lot of solo piano pieces recorded in my 
> Performer environment, and we're talking about me transferring some 
> of the better piano pieces from Performer to floppy for the Yamaha. 
> If it sounds as good as I hope it does, I'll drag my CD recorder and 
> a couple of mics over there.. instant piano solo album. 
> 
> We've been doing the reading, and I know it handles Type 0 and 1 
> standard MIDI format (SMF) disks in PC or MAC format.  The thing I'm 
> not sure of, is WHICH MAC format.. mine dates from 1996 and is 
> running OS 7.something.  No DOS floppy emulation.
> 
> I could email the .MID file to my PC and write the floppy there.
> 
> Also, I had the habit of ignoring/muting Performer's 'metronome' 
> function, just leaving it run / record at 120BPM.. assuming I solve 
> the physical floppy format conversion, will the Disklavier have a 
> problem playing MIDI files not recorded listening to the 'beat'?
> 
> And I assume the piano part should be on Track 1 assigned to MIDI 
> channel 1.  I'll trim out the 'patch change' command but leave the 
> pedal Continuous Controller (CC64) and Volume (CC7) information in 
> the track.  Correct?
> 
> thanks!
> 
> Karl
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> To Post a message to the group, send it to:   disklavier@...
> 
> To Post a private message to Todd Muncy, the group's founder and moderator, send it to:
> disklavier-owner@...
> 
> To reach our group's web site go to:
> http://Yahoogroups.com/group/disklavier
> 
> Todd's family web site was completely updated 012/22/03.  It contains some fun disklavier content and links to midi sites among many other things, The url is:
> http://MuncyFamily.com 
> 
> THINKING OF LEAVING THE GROUP?
> If you are thinking of unsubcribing because you are getting too much mail, go the the web site and change your email delivery option instead.  That will fix the problem, while maintaining your access to the group.  If you insist on leaving us completely send a blank email to:
> disklavier-unsubscribe@... 
> 
> Know someone who wants to join?  Have them send a blank email to:
> disklavier-subscribe@... or give them this link:
> http://Yahoogroups.com/group/disklavier/join 
>  
> Yahoo! Groups Links
> 
> 
> 
>  
> 
> 
> 
> 


-- 
Robert Welcyng
Anchorage, Alaska

Re: Performer user encounters Disklavier

2004-10-03 by Karl M

--- In disklavier@yahoogroups.com, Robert Welcyng <rwelcyng@a...> 
wrote:

> In order to achieve a good-sounding result, the note-on velocities 
> should be within the range of 20 to 95.

I did see a thread about this in this forum.. I know how to scale 
note velocities, but it does remove some dynamic range.  What happens 
with notes with velocities >100?  

> The Disklavier is capable of so-called "continuous pedal" which 
responds to intermediate pedal values between 0 and 127. The Mark III 
should respond to the continuous pedal values, directed to channel 
#1, in your files.

Well, that's going to be 0 and 127, because the whole idea is to 
utilize already-edited piano sequences.

>In reality, the most efficient and practical way to achieve a truly 
artistic result on a Disklavier is by performing and recording the 
songs on a Disklavier.

Probably true.. I have a very good controller, a Yamaha KX88, driving 
a superb Kurzweil piano sample.. but it isn't the same.  So..

QUESTION: I know, since I've done it, that the files created by 
playing on and saving to the Disklavier's floppy drive are 
called .MID.  Has anyone ever taken THESE MIDI recordings and worked 
them over in a computer sequencer, and brought them back to the 
Disklavier for audio recording?  We know it can READ DOS half and hi 
density (1.4MB) floppies.  What is the DISK format of floppies 
written by the Disklavier?  

Just full of questions..

thanks

Karl

Re: [disklavier] Re: Performer user encounters Disklavier

2004-10-03 by Robert Welcyng

Karl M wrote:
> 
> --- In disklavier@yahoogroups.com, Robert Welcyng <rwelcyng@a...> 
> wrote:
> 
> 
>>In order to achieve a good-sounding result, the note-on velocities 
>>should be within the range of 20 to 95.
> 
> 
> I did see a thread about this in this forum.. I know how to scale 
> note velocities, but it does remove some dynamic range.  What happens 
> with notes with velocities >100?

+++RW:  The Disklavier's dynamic range, the sound power between the 
softest and loudest notes reproduced is limited, of course, by the range 
through which the solenoids are driven. Those limits of sound power 
remain fixed regardless of the note velocities in the file.  What can be 
varied is the DKV's Volume Control.

With the Volume Control set at "0", you will hear uniform gradations in 
sound power as note velocities progress from about 20 to 95.  Notes at 
velocities from 95 to 127 will play with the same loudness as 95.  In 
other words, at DKV Volume = "0", loudness starts limiting at a velocity 
of 95.

If you set the DKV Volume Control to "-3", limiting begins at about 
velocity 113; at "-4", 125.  At DKV Volume Control to "-5", a note of 
velocity 127 begins to limit.  Throughout the range of the DKV volume 
control, the response curve pivots at velocity 22.  In other words, 
notes at velocity 22 play at the same loudness regardless of the Volume 
Control setting.  This all much easier to visualize graphically.

To answer your question, you may utilize the full dynamic range of the 
DKV by keeping your note velocities in the range of 20 to 95 and the DKV 
Volume at "0".  If you scale-down the velocities further, you will 
reduce the dynamic range.  If your file does have velocities greater 
than 95, you may be able to reduce the DKV volume to avoid limiting the 
velocities above 95, but you will still reduce the gradations among the 
lower velocity notes and, thus, reduce the dynamic range.  There is no 
free lunch.


> 
> 
>>The Disklavier is capable of so-called "continuous pedal" which 
> 
> responds to intermediate pedal values between 0 and 127. The Mark III 
> should respond to the continuous pedal values, directed to channel 
> #1, in your files.
> 
> Well, that's going to be 0 and 127, because the whole idea is to 
> utilize already-edited piano sequences.

+++ RW: On/off pedaling tends to "clunk-clunk" on the DKV--which is OK 
for some people, I guess.  Some of Yamaha's early PianoSoft diskettes 
had only on/off pedaling and that seemed acceptable a few years back.

> 
> 
>>In reality, the most efficient and practical way to achieve a truly 
> 
> artistic result on a Disklavier is by performing and recording the 
> songs on a Disklavier.
> 
> Probably true.. I have a very good controller, a Yamaha KX88, driving 
> a superb Kurzweil piano sample.. but it isn't the same.  So..
> 
> QUESTION: I know, since I've done it, that the files created by 
> playing on and saving to the Disklavier's floppy drive are 
> called .MID.  Has anyone ever taken THESE MIDI recordings and worked 
> them over in a computer sequencer, and brought them back to the 
> Disklavier for audio recording?  We know it can READ DOS half and hi 
> density (1.4MB) floppies.  What is the DISK format of floppies 
> written by the Disklavier?

+++ RW: DKV-formatted floppies are "sort of like" DOS.  I don't know the 
details.  I use the Giebler Utilities (www.giebler.com) to tunnel back 
and forth and so have I have had no need to know.

I have "worked over" MIDI files.  It's lots of work and a good 
illustration of the law of diminishing returns.

> 
> Just full of questions..
> 
> thanks
> 
> Karl
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> To Post a message to the group, send it to:   disklavier@...
> 
> To Post a private message to Todd Muncy, the group's founder and moderator, send it to:
> disklavier-owner@...
> 
> To reach our group's web site go to:
> http://Yahoogroups.com/group/disklavier
> 
> Todd's family web site was completely updated 012/22/03.  It contains some fun disklavier content and links to midi sites among many other things, The url is:
> http://MuncyFamily.com 
> 
> THINKING OF LEAVING THE GROUP?
> If you are thinking of unsubcribing because you are getting too much mail, go the the web site and change your email delivery option instead.  That will fix the problem, while maintaining your access to the group.  If you insist on leaving us completely send a blank email to:
> disklavier-unsubscribe@... 
> 
> Know someone who wants to join?  Have them send a blank email to:
> disklavier-subscribe@... or give them this link:
> http://Yahoogroups.com/group/disklavier/join 
>  
> Yahoo! Groups Links
> 
> 
> 
>  
> 
> 
> 
> 


-- 
Robert Welcyng
Anchorage, Alaska

Re: [disklavier] Re: Performer user encounters Disklavier

2004-10-03 by PianoBench@aol.com

Good evening, everyone.

In a message dated 10/3/04 5:55:36 PM, Robert writes:


With the Volume Control set at "0", you will hear uniform gradations in
sound power as note velocities progress from about 20 to 95. Notes at
velocities from 95 to 127 will play with the same loudness as 95. In
other words, at DKV Volume = "0", loudness starts limiting at a velocity
of 95.

I think that the Mark III will play velocities above 95 audibly louder.

I would simply point out that when recording the loudest playing on any Disklavier, velocities above 110 are rarely achieved and for most people, the loudest passages are recorded in the 90-110 range.

It is also useful to note that a Disklavier piano recording sets controller 7=100 by default.

Regards,
PianoBench

Re: [disklavier] Re: Performer user encounters Disklavier

2004-10-03 by Robert Welcyng

Piano Bench may well be correct about that.  I made my measurements on a 
Mark II and made the possibly incorrect assumption that the Mark III's 
volume control and  velocity characteristics were the same. I apologize 
for not stating that.

Unfortunately, Yamaha is totally mute about such matters. You pretty 
much have to make your own investigations to find out.

PianoBench@... wrote:
> Good evening, everyone.
> 
> In a message dated 10/3/04 5:55:36 PM, Robert writes:
> 
> 
>> With the Volume Control set at "0", you will hear uniform gradations in
>> sound power as note velocities progress from about 20 to 95.  Notes at
>> velocities from 95 to 127 will play with the same loudness as 95.  In
>> other words, at DKV Volume = "0", loudness starts limiting at a velocity
>> of 95.
> 
> 
> I think that the Mark III will play velocities above 95 audibly louder.
> 
> I would simply point out that when recording the loudest playing on any 
> Disklavier, velocities above 110 are rarely achieved and for most 
> people, the loudest passages are recorded in the 90-110 range.
> 
> It is also useful to note that a Disklavier piano recording sets 
> controller 7=100 by default.
> 
> Regards,
> PianoBench
> 
> To Post a message to the group, send it to:   disklavier@...
> 
> To Post a private message to Todd Muncy, the group's founder and 
> moderator, send it to:
> disklavier-owner@...
> 
> To reach our group's web site go to:
> http://Yahoogroups.com/group/disklavier
> 
> Todd's family web site was completely updated 012/22/03.  It contains 
> some fun disklavier content and links to midi sites among many other 
> things, The url is:
> http://MuncyFamily.com
> 
> THINKING OF LEAVING THE GROUP?
> If you are thinking of unsubcribing because you are getting too much 
> mail, go the the web site and change your email delivery option 
> instead.  That will fix the problem, while maintaining your access to 
> the group.  If you insist on leaving us completely send a blank email to:
> disklavier-unsubscribe@...
> 
> Know someone who wants to join?  Have them send a blank email to:
> disklavier-subscribe@... or give them this link:
> http://Yahoogroups.com/group/disklavier/join
> 
> 
> 
> Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
> ADVERTISEMENT
> click here 
> <http://us.ard.yahoo.com/SIG=129b23tvn/M=315388.5455589.6541277.2248467/D=grplch/S=1705032012:HM/EXP=1096928709/A=2372354/R=0/SIG=12id813k2/*https://www.orchardbank.com/hcs/hcsapplication?pf=PLApply&media=EMYHNL40F21004SS>
> 
> 
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Yahoo! Groups Links
> 
>     * To visit your group on the web, go to:
>       http://groups.yahoo.com/group/disklavier/
>        
>     * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
>       disklavier-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>       <mailto:disklavier-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com?subject=Unsubscribe>
>        
>     * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
> Service <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/>.
> 
> 


-- 
Robert Welcyng
Anchorage, Alaska

Re: Performer user encounters Disklavier

2004-10-07 by Jorge Fernandez

Hi Robert, can you please explain more about the "law of of 
diminishing returns"

I also work a lot over MIDI files form the net, some times with nice 
results, but some times I have to quit, even if the files sounded 
fine when played in the PC with the "internal" sound boards synths.

--- In disklavier@yahoogroups.com, Robert Welcyng <rwelcyng@a...> 
wrote:
> +++ RW: DKV-formatted floppies are "sort of like" DOS.  I don't 
know the 
> details.  I use the Giebler Utilities (www.giebler.com) to tunnel 
back 
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> and forth and so have I have had no need to know.
> 
> I have "worked over" MIDI files.  It's lots of work and a good 
> illustration of the law of diminishing returns.
>

Re: Performer user encounters Disklavier

2004-10-07 by Jorge Fernandez

Hi Bench, this is an old question for me.

Is MIDI controler 7 (volume) used by the mechanical (Piano) part or 
the DKV?
How?

This means that chages of volume on MIDI channel 1 have an effect?
How is this related to the set point of volume in the control unit?

Thanks...

--- In disklavier@yahoogroups.com, PianoBench@a... wrote:
> Good evening, everyone.
> 
> In a message dated 10/3/04 5:55:36 PM, Robert writes:
> 
> 
> It is also useful to note that a Disklavier piano recording sets 
controller 
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> 7=100 by default.
> 
> Regards,
> PianoBench

Move to quarantaine

This moves the raw source file on disk only. The archive index is not changed automatically, so you still need to run a manual refresh afterward.