Disklavier

In a message dated 10/7/2007 8:42:27 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time,  
disklavier@yahoogroups.com writes:

They  could use this same new control unit for their 
upright pianos. They could  be collecting our monthly Internet 
Radio fees right now :)... 


What a great observation! Maybe this will work itself back to  the CEO.
 
I just got my Mark lll upright  less than a year ago, and would love  the 
internet radio feature.  

Blessings,
Wanda




************************************** See what's new at http://www.aol.com

Several of us have discussed in the past.  Yamaha has deaf ears on 
this subject.  With today's electronics, you could likely fit 
everything you needed into a new Mark III control box.   Maybe add 
an Ethernet jack, USB ports, etc.  I dream about my Yamaha tech 
coming to my home.  Replacing my box with the new version.  The tech 
would simplay remove the old unit and put the unit in the same exact 
space as the old unit.  Plugging the new unit into the existing 
control chords, etc.  They could even add a wireless tablet that 
interfaced with the new control unit.  The tech would run some 
utilities to sync the new control unit to the Mark III.....  Sorry, 
I was dreaming - I'll wake up now :)...  

There are really two "electronic" parts to the Mark III piano.  The 
control unit and the piano mechanism.  Although you could never get 
a new piano/keyboard mechanism like a Mark IV, you could drive the 
Mark III with a new control unit.  This unit would understand the 
architecture of the keyboard and interface accordingly.... 

--- In disklavier@yahoogroups.com, wandamusic@... wrote:
>
>  
> In a message dated 10/7/2007 8:42:27 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time,  
> disklavier@yahoogroups.com writes:
> 
> They  could use this same new control unit for their 
> upright pianos. They could  be collecting our monthly Internet 
> Radio fees right now :)... 
> 
> 
> What a great observation! Maybe this will work itself back to  the 
CEO.
>  
> I just got my Mark lll upright  less than a year ago, and would 
love  the 
> internet radio feature.  
> 
> Blessings,
> Wanda
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ************************************** See what's new at 
http://www.aol.com
>

Until the Disklavier MkIV came out, all Disklaviers were basically hardware-based. Each successive model was electronically & physically different from the previous model. This means that it is not economically viable to produce an updated control unit. It is much cheaper to trade in your old piano and buy the latest model. As an analogy, try getting your car dealer to change your 3 year old Toyota into a Lexus - it may be possible, but you wouldn't want to pay for it.

As far as ethernet, wireless control, etc. are concerned, there is an easy option: get a laptop and connect via MIDI.

athomik

On Oct 7 2007, sjhart110110 wrote:

>Several of us have discussed in the past. Yamaha has deaf ears on
>this subject. With today's electronics, you could likely fit
>everything you needed into a new Mark III control box. Maybe add
>an Ethernet jack, USB ports, etc. I dream about my Yamaha tech
>coming to my home. Replacing my box with the new version. The tech
>would simplay remove the old unit and put the unit in the same exact
>space as the old unit. Plugging the new unit into the existing
>control chords, etc. They could even add a wireless tablet that
>interfaced with the new control unit. The tech would run some
>utilities to sync the new control unit to the Mark III..... Sorry,
>I was dreaming - I'll wake up now :)...
>
>There are really two "electronic" parts to the Mark III piano. The
>control unit and the piano mechanism. Although you could never get
>a new piano/keyboard mechanism like a Mark IV, you could drive the
>Mark III with a new control unit. This unit would understand the
>architecture of the keyboard and interface accordingly....
>
>--- In disklavier@yahoogroups.com, wandamusic@... wrote:
>>
>>
>> In a message dated 10/7/2007 8:42:27 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
>> disklavier@yahoogroups.com writes:
>>
>> They could use this same new control unit for their
>> upright pianos. They could be collecting our monthly Internet
>> Radio fees right now :)...
>>
>>
>> What a great observation! Maybe this will work itself back to the
>CEO.
>>
>> I just got my Mark lll upright less than a year ago, and would
>love the
>> internet radio feature.
>>
>> Blessings,
>> Wanda
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> ************************************** See what's new at
>http://www.aol.com
>>
>
>
>

I'm under the impression that the playback of MIDI from the CD is still done via an analog connection, and the capabilities of that are lower than when playing them directly off of floppies.  I'm talking about the MarkIII here, not the MarkIV.  I assume that they've addressed this in the MarkIV.

----- Original Message ----
From: John Rank <jtr822@...>
To: disklavier@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Monday, October 8, 2007 12:37:45 PM
Subject: Re: [disklavier] Re: Digest Number 1666









  


    
            



The difference is that when you buy a car, you 
don't expect it to last for 30 years or so--how long will a grand piano properly 
tuned last, anyway--50 years?  To suggest  that trading in a 
piano every three years and saying that it is cheaper really misses the point. 
Part of the sales pitch I heard when I bought my Mark IIXG was that updates 
would be available that would mean you would not have to get rid of your piano 
to stay relatively current.  Now I will agree that "relatively" is a vague 
term; but I did not expect to be required to buy a new piano every four or five 
years to stay within a supported product group.

 

Speaking of which, what kind of an upgrade is out 
there for a C2 MarkIIXG piano and what does it accommodate in terms of 
features?  I bought the Disklavier because I love the piano and the music 
it creates.  I am not interested in hearing a singer accompany the music 
being played on the piano.  With the death of floppy disks, I am thinking 
that I should have the DVD style system of the Mark III and IV (?) so that I can 
still buy newer recorded disks.  It does seem like Yamaha still produces 
the occasional XG or piano soft product that can be used with my piano, but I am 
not sure what long term problems I face with the older mechanical system.  
The Yamaha piano itself is great, and if I played it better, I might not be 
worried about the other prerecorded material that I use with so much pleasure 
now. 

 

Are those who have upgraded a MarkIIXG happy with 
the upgrade?  Thanks

 

John

 

 


  ----- Original Message ----- 

  From: 
  athomik 
  

  To: disklavier@yahoogro ups.com 

  Sent: Monday, October 08, 2007 2:38 
  AM

  Subject: Re: [disklavier] Re: Digest 
  Number 1666

  


  
  
  

Until the Disklavier MkIV came out, all Disklaviers were basically 
  hardware-based. Each successive model was electronically & physically 
  different from the previous model. This means that it is not economically 
  viable to produce an updated control unit. It is much cheaper to trade in your 
  old piano and buy the latest model. As an analogy, try getting your car dealer 
  to change your 3 year old Toyota into a Lexus - it may be possible, 
  but you wouldn't want to pay for it. 

  As far as ethernet, wireless control, etc. are concerned, there 
  is an easy option: get a laptop and connect via MIDI.  

  athomik

On Oct 7 2007, sjhart110110 wrote: 

>Several of us 
  have discussed in the past. Yamaha has deaf ears on 
>this subject. With 
  today's electronics, you could likely fit 
>everything you needed into a 
  new Mark III control box. Maybe add 
>an Ethernet jack, USB ports, etc. 
  I dream about my Yamaha tech 
>coming to my home. Replacing my box with 
  the new version. The tech 
>would simplay remove the old unit and put 
  the unit in the same exact 
>space as the old unit. Plugging the new 
  unit into the existing 
>control chords, etc. They could even add a 
  wireless tablet that 
>interfaced with the new control unit. The tech 
  would run some 
>utilities to sync the new control unit to the Mark 
  III..... Sorry, 
>I was dreaming - I'll wake up now :)... 
  
>
>There are really two "electronic" parts to the Mark III piano. 
  The 
>control unit and the piano mechanism. Although you could never get 
  
>a new piano/keyboard mechanism like a Mark IV, you could drive the 
  
>Mark III with a new control unit. This unit would understand the 
  
>architecture of the keyboard and interface accordingly. ... 
  
>
>--- In disklavier@yahoogro ups.com, wandamusic@. .. 
  wrote:
>>
>> 
>> In a message dated 10/7/2007 
  8:42:27 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, 
>> 
  disklavier@yahoogro ups.com writes:
>> 
>> They could 
  use this same new control unit for their 
>> upright pianos. They 
  could be collecting our monthly Internet 
>> Radio fees right now 
  :)... 
>> 
>> 
>> What a great observation! Maybe 
  this will work itself back to the 
>CEO.
>> 
>> I just 
  got my Mark lll upright less than a year ago, and would 
>love the 
  
>> internet radio feature. 
>> 
>> 
  Blessings,
>> Wanda
>> 
>> 
>> 
  
>> 
>> 
  ************ ********* ********* ******** See what's new at 
  
>http://www.aol. com
>>
>
>
> 

  



    
  

    
    




<!--

For what it is worth, I don't agree with you.  It "could" be done, but 
likely won't because Yamaha does not think it is worth it.  I 
personally don't think that trading in a piano ever few years is NOT an 
acceptable upgrade path for a piano.  Especially for folks (like me), 
that purchased Mark IIIs only a few years ago.  It was part of the 
sales pitch they gave me....  I would easily spend several thousand 
dollars for a new control box to get upgradable features... SJ

------------------------------------------------------------------

Until the Disklavier MkIV came out, all Disklaviers were basically 
hardware-based. Each successive model was electronically & physically 
different from the previous model. This means that it is not 
economically viable to produce an updated control unit. It is much 
cheaper to trade in your old piano and buy the latest model. As an 
analogy, try getting your car dealer to change your 3 year old Toyota 
into a Lexus - it may be possible, but you wouldn't want to pay for it. 

As far as ethernet, wireless control, etc. are concerned, there is an 
easy option: get a laptop and connect via MIDI.  

athomik

Good morning, everyone.

On Oct 8, 2007, at 1:00 PM, Kevin Goroway wrote:

> I'm under the impression that the playback of MIDI from the CD is  
> still done via an analog connection, and the capabilities of that  
> are lower than when playing them directly off of floppies.  I'm  
> talking about the MarkIII here, not the MarkIV.  I assume that  
> they've addressed this in the MarkIV.

The purpose of creating PianoSoft Plus Audio CDs was to provide a  
simple medium for combining the MIDI data that drives the piano with  
real audio (singers and/or instrumentalists). The solution was to put  
the singers and instrumentalists on one audio channel of the CD and  
to encode the MIDI data as audio and place it on the other channel.

That scheme worked very effectively, and I don't believe that  
Yamaha's solution has compromised the MIDI data. In other words, the  
Disklavier plays the MIDI data in the same way that it would play  
MIDI data that is received over a MIDI cable.

Accordingly, there has been no need to try to change that scheme in  
the Mark IV.

Regards,
PianoBench

> On Oct 8, 2007, at 1:00 PM, Kevin Goroway wrote:
> 
> > I'm under the impression that the playback of MIDI from the CD is  
> > still done via an analog connection, and the capabilities of that  
> > are lower than when playing them directly off of floppies.

On Tue, 9 Oct 2007, George F. Litterst wrote:

> The purpose of creating PianoSoft Plus Audio CDs was to provide a  
> simple medium for combining the MIDI data that drives the piano with  
> real audio (singers and/or instrumentalists). The solution was to put  
> the singers and instrumentalists on one audio channel of the CD and  
> to encode the MIDI data as audio and place it on the other channel.
> 
> That scheme worked very effectively, and I don't believe that  
> Yamaha's solution has compromised the MIDI data. In other words, the  
> Disklavier plays the MIDI data in the same way that it would play  
> MIDI data that is received over a MIDI cable.


I believe Kevin's understanding is correct - playing MIDI data from a
Yamaha CD is slightly inferior to playing it over a MIDI cable, and
*definitely* inferior to playing a MIDI/ESEQ file directly from a floppy
disk, memory disk or hard drive.  This goes for all Disklavier models.

The reason?  MIDI data on CD is encoded with extremely limited bandwidth
(12.6 Kbps, as compared with a 31.25 Kbps wireline MIDI connection,
which itself is considered quite slow by today's standards).

MIDI events on a CD take longer to send, due to the limited bandwidth,
and large chords may become slightly more arpeggiated.  The time between
events is encoded as simply idle time on the CD; there is no concrete 
indication of precisely when a MIDI event should fire.

In contrast, MIDI or ESEQ files played from floppy disks or the
Disklavier's memory can be played with more accurate timing, since MIDI
and ESEQ files precisely specify when each event should fire.  A
Disklavier can strike all notes of a ten-note chord simultaneously when
playing from a floppy.  When playing from a CD, it would take about 19
milliseconds to transmit all of the MIDI events for that ten-note chord,
so the chord would inevitably play with a slightly arpeggiated effect
(which, depending on the listener, may or may not be noticeable, though
studies have shown that trained musicians can discern timing variations
of under 5 ms).

Time to transmit a ten-note chord
=================================
Floppy:     0 ms
MIDI cable: 7 ms  (best case; if running status is used)
CD:         19 ms

Zenph Studios has mentioned that they perform all of their recreated 
performances from the internal disk drives of the Disklavier.  This is 
to avoid the timing inaccuracies introduced by wireline MIDI and by the 
"analog MIDI" CD format.

With that said, the CD format Yamaha uses is much better than the
formats of PianoDisc and QRS, which are both over 3x slower!

But QRS is introducing a new piano+audio CD format called "SPA-Logic"  
which is designed to improve the timing a bit.  It also offers some
interesting technical features: you can play these discs on your home
stereo as normal audio CDs (and hear the piano part etc.)  But when
played on the player piano, the piano is able to completely remove the
acoustic piano audio from the mix (due to special encoding tricks
applied to the sample data when the CD was mastered) and play from MIDI
events embedded in the subcode.  These SPA-Logic CDs also permit
on-the-fly enabling and disabling of other elements of the mix (vocals
etc.) according to the user's preferences.  The patent application for
this technology is an interesting read:

   http://www.freepatentsonline.com/20050259828.html

The advantages over existing player piano CD formats seem to be:

  - ability to play the CD on a home stereo and hear the whole
    performance (with piano, and without any "fax machine" tone)
  - ability to dynamically add/remove instruments from the mix
  - increased MIDI expression resolution (255 levels instead of 127) 
  - timestamping of MIDI events for better timing accuracy
  - support for lyric data

Mark Fontana

sjhart110110 wrote:
> For what it is worth, I don't agree with you.  It "could" be done, but 
> likely won't because Yamaha does not think it is worth it.  I 
> personally don't think that trading in a piano ever few years is NOT an 
> acceptable upgrade path for a piano.  Especially for folks (like me), 
> that purchased Mark IIIs only a few years ago.  It was part of the 
> sales pitch they gave me....  I would easily spend several thousand 
> dollars for a new control box to get upgradable features... SJ
>
>   
I don't think you meant the double negative there - and I was told the 
same thing with my late mark IIXG upright. For me there is no possible 
upgrade path as I simply don't have room for a grand in order to get the 
mark IV "features". Besides which, I spent quite a while trying out 
different U1 based disklaviers before I bought mine - they all sound and 
respond differently and I bought it intending to keep and upgrade it for 
many years.

Athomik - while I agree the MarkIV is a massive step up in terms of the 
hardware fitted to the piano, most of us are quite happy with the 
hardware fitted to our older pianos. What we would like is to be able to 
use Disklavier radio, have a large library of songs on a hard drive, a 
better wireless remote, etc. These features could easily be provided in 
a DSR1-like module without having to retrofit the piano - much as the 
DSR1 with DCD1 adds pretty much all of the MarkIII functionality to the 
original wagon disklaviers (ie those with no built in synth).

Yamaha would potentially be able to tap into the massive install base of 
Pianodisc systems (as well as other smaller customer bases such as 
e-Valve). Most of these systems are installed into pianos that people 
really cherish.

Regards

James

Oh well, always nice to have these discussions.  Yamaha is always 
mute on the subject.  I should go back to my dealer and talk to the 
nice sales lady who guaranteed me an upgradable piano.  The probably 
will allow me to "upgrade" for around $25K + my DC3A! :)  

--- In disklavier@yahoogroups.com, James Fry <groups@...> wrote:
>
> sjhart110110 wrote:
> > For what it is worth, I don't agree with you.  It "could" be 
done, but 
> > likely won't because Yamaha does not think it is worth it.  I 
> > personally don't think that trading in a piano ever few years is 
NOT an 
> > acceptable upgrade path for a piano.  Especially for folks (like 
me), 
> > that purchased Mark IIIs only a few years ago.  It was part of 
the 
> > sales pitch they gave me....  I would easily spend several 
thousand 
> > dollars for a new control box to get upgradable features... SJ
> >
> >   
> I don't think you meant the double negative there - and I was told 
the 
> same thing with my late mark IIXG upright. For me there is no 
possible 
> upgrade path as I simply don't have room for a grand in order to 
get the 
> mark IV "features". Besides which, I spent quite a while trying 
out 
> different U1 based disklaviers before I bought mine - they all 
sound and 
> respond differently and I bought it intending to keep and upgrade 
it for 
> many years.
> 
> Athomik - while I agree the MarkIV is a massive step up in terms 
of the 
> hardware fitted to the piano, most of us are quite happy with the 
> hardware fitted to our older pianos. What we would like is to be 
able to 
> use Disklavier radio, have a large library of songs on a hard 
drive, a 
> better wireless remote, etc. These features could easily be 
provided in 
> a DSR1-like module without having to retrofit the piano - much as 
the 
> DSR1 with DCD1 adds pretty much all of the MarkIII functionality 
to the 
> original wagon disklaviers (ie those with no built in synth).
> 
> Yamaha would potentially be able to tap into the massive install 
base of 
> Pianodisc systems (as well as other smaller customer bases such as 
> e-Valve). Most of these systems are installed into pianos that 
people 

> really cherish.
> 
> Regards
> 
> James
>