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Quality sounds

Quality sounds

2008-01-08 by Carol Beigel

I hope not too many find this off topic for a Disklavier list, but over the years I have heard many complaints about the quality of the Ensemble sounds coming from XG tone generator DB50 modules. Now, I have very simple ears, and think my MX100XG disklavier sounds great both on the piano (older model U1) and the DB50 tones coming through a single big Yamaha speaker. When my Disklavier is playing I am a very, very happy camper!
However, I am the first one to recognize that if I want to burn MIDI piano data to a CD to play on my stereo system, the digital audio sounds on my computer soundcard are awful. Those folks lucky enough to have a MarkIII Disklavier have an amplifier underneath the piano whose audio outputs produce an excellent piano sound for this purpose. For me, this all started when my father recorded some songs on my DKV and wanted me to burn a copy to a CD so he could listen to it in his car. I am still in the middle of this journey to find a better sound, so the remainder of this post will probably bore those not interested in the nature of what sounds good to different people.
In my search for something better, I discovered VST instruments which are the next generation of XG sounds. What makes them so much better? Can they be used like a tone generator? Since they are software programs, can they be installed on a computer and the sounds played through a stereo system?
Would something like the HALion 3.1 ($300) or the HALion Player ($129.99) on the Sternberg website substitute as a tone generator?
I have developed a curiosity over the years about what other people are hearing because they seem so devoted and adamant to finding the perfect sound. Also, my livelihood depends upon my ability to deliver quality piano sounds through tuning and voicing. Many times I am not in agreement with a client with a sound, but it is my job to produce what they want to hear and not push my own agenda. I am especially astounded when dealing with audio engineers who describe themselves as "purists" when what I hear in the recording booth differs so greatly from what I hear on the studio floor with the piano. This goes for concert stages as well. I will sometimes knock myself out to produce a beautiful sound to my ears on the stage only to creep into the theatre during a performance and be so disappointed at what I hear coming through the audio system.
I am amazed about how different shapes of microphones produce different sounds; how the more they cost the better they sound. Why? The Library of Congress is archiving their old vinyl collections (including parafin cylinders) using high resolution photography of the grooves to produce data that converts to digital audio called project Irene. Yet there are people who will only own stereo amplifiers with vacuum tubes and only play music from vinyl records because they say these are the best sounds. Some people say they can hear the difference between a VST piano and an audio recording of a real one. How can that be when the recording of a real one is mixed with reverb in the studio? when the artist wants a wetter or drier sound and still be a purist?????" I suppose the answer lies in the art of reproducing what we hear as soundwaves with our ears to a table of numbers.
Is the perfect sound coming through a speaker just a table of numbers? That when you buy a reverb kit with may options, they are just different tables of numbers? That when audio engineers push those sliders up and down on a control board, that they are just creating a different table of numbers? That XG sounds are the parameters, but the little doodads on the circuit boards send a data stream that is just another table of numbers? Is that what an artist is today - someone who can skillfully manipulate a column of numbers to produce the perfect sound?
Carol Beigel

Re: [disklavier] Quality sounds

2008-01-09 by Ron Natalie

Of course before I got my DC5A, what I used was GigaStudio primarily 
with the Michael Post
piano samples (usually his Bosendorfer 290).   That machine is the one 
that rolls around under
the piano now but I hardly make use of it other than as a piano roll 
library.

RE: [disklavier] Quality sounds

2008-01-09 by Michael Weinstock

Carol,
I very much enjoyed your thought provoking piece.
There is another aspect to this discussion... and that is the music being expressed with these sounds.
For example, I can listen to a 1920's recording of Rubenstein and be totally enraptured with the piano music I hear in spite of the monophonic somewhat scratchy reproduction from 80 years ago. In direct comparison I can listen to a modern day recording of the same piece with state of the art equipment and although the piano as a sound is significantly better quality, I might be left feeling relatively untouched by what I am hearing, especially when comparing my reaction to the 2 performances.
I think it important to keep in mind that those who seek the "perfect" sound is more often than not as a vehicle to hear music. It strikes me as potentially losing sight of why we are all so interested in these sounds in the first place when the focus shifts too far away from the end goal and sits exclusively on the vehicle by which it is achieved.
"Beauty" in terms of sound is very much in the ear of the beholder. What sounds good to one person is not necessarily what sounds good to another as you explained in tuning and voicing your client's pianos. What you prefer versus what they prefer can be distinctly different. We are dealing with human perceptions which is by definition subjective in nature. Whilst sound can be scientifically sampled measured and compared as mathematical tables of numbers at the end of the day it is the experience perceived by the listener that truly counts to my way of thinking.
I have a MKIII DGH1-BA. There is no doubt in my mind that I prefer the sound of an S series having been lucky enough to play on an S6 a few years back. Do I covet the thought of one day getting an S series MKIV disklavier. Absolutely... but whilst I wait for a winning lottery ticket its not going to detract from the enjoyment I get from my current instrument, even though its sound is a long way from the absolute pinnacle of what is available. I think the same thing applies in this discussion of tone generators. If it sounds good to you as a listener... be happy ! :)
Michael Weinstock
Melbourne, Australia
Show quoted textHide quoted text
-----Original Message-----
From: disklavier@yahoogroups.com [mailto:disklavier@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Carol Beigel
Sent: Wednesday, 9 January 2008 7:53 AM
To: disklavier@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [disklavier] Quality sounds

I hope not too many find this off topic for a Disklavier list, but over the years I have heard many complaints about the quality of the Ensemble sounds coming from XG tone generator DB50 modules. Now, I have very simple ears, and think my MX100XG disklavier sounds great both on the piano (older model U1) and the DB50 tones coming through a single big Yamaha speaker. When my Disklavier is playing I am a very, very happy camper!
However, I am the first one to recognize that if I want to burn MIDI piano data to a CD to play on my stereo system, the digital audio sounds on my computer soundcard are awful. Those folks lucky enough to have a MarkIII Disklavier have an amplifier underneath the piano whose audio outputs produce an excellent piano sound for this purpose. For me, this all started when my father recorded some songs on my DKV and wanted me to burn a copy to a CD so he could listen to it in his car. I am still in the middle of this journey to find a better sound, so the remainder of this post will probably bore those not interested in the nature of what sounds good to different people.
In my search for something better, I discovered VST instruments which are the next generation of XG sounds. What makes them so much better? Can they be used like a tone generator? Since they are software programs, can they be installed on a computer and the sounds played through a stereo system?
Would something like the HALion 3.1 ($300) or the HALion Player ($129.99) on the Sternberg website substitute as a tone generator?
I have developed a curiosity over the years about what other people are hearing because they seem so devoted and adamant to finding the perfect sound. Also, my livelihood depends upon my ability to deliver quality piano sounds through tuning and voicing. Many times I am not in agreement with a client with a sound, but it is my job to produce what they want to hear and not push my own agenda. I am especially astounded when dealing with audio engineers who describe themselves as "purists" when what I hear in the recording booth differs so greatly from what I hear on the studio floor with the piano. This goes for concert stages as well. I will sometimes knock myself out to produce a beautiful sound to my ears on the stage only to creep into the theatre during a performance and be so disappointed at what I hear coming through the audio system.
I am amazed about how different shapes of microphones produce different sounds; how the more they cost the better they sound. Why? The Library of Congress is archiving their old vinyl collections (including parafin cylinders) using high resolution photography of the grooves to produce data that converts to digital audio called project Irene. Yet there are people who will only own stereo amplifiers with vacuum tubes and only play music from vinyl records because they say these are the best sounds. Some people say they can hear the difference between a VST piano and an audio recording of a real one. How can that be when the recording of a real one is mixed with reverb in the studio? when the artist wants a wetter or drier sound and still be a purist?????" I suppose the answer lies in the art of reproducing what we hear as soundwaves with our ears to a table of numbers.
Is the perfect sound coming through a speaker just a table of numbers? That when you buy a reverb kit with may options, they are just different tables of numbers? That when audio engineers push those sliders up and down on a control board, that they are just creating a different table of numbers? That XG sounds are the parameters, but the little doodads on the circuit boards send a data stream that is just another table of numbers? Is that what an artist is today - someone who can skillfully manipulate a column of numbers to produce the perfect sound?
Carol Beigel


Internal Virus Database is out-of-date.
Checked by AVG Free Edition.
Version: 7.5.516 / Virus Database: 269.17.13 - Release Date: 31/12/2007 12:00 AM


Internal Virus Database is out-of-date.
Checked by AVG Free Edition.
Version: 7.5.516 / Virus Database: 269.17.13 - Release Date: 31/12/2007 12:00 AM

Re: [disklavier] Quality sounds

2008-01-10 by Matthew Teeter

I have a Roland digital piano that is almost 10 years old, and I admit, its sounds are a bit fake.  It is most noticable in the bass and for notes of long

Re: [disklavier] Quality sounds

2008-01-10 by Carol Beigel

I have noticed that the better the data, the more there is of it! Just like the Pro model Disklaviers, they process more data in XP mode - so much data that it does not fit very well on a floppy disk. Same goes for these newer sound sets. The XG sound in the DB50 and DB51 tone modules sound great with comparatively very little data and processing power.
However, these VST sounds would like to see at least 2.5 GHz processor speed and 2Gig of memory. I doubt many people have laptop computers with these requirements hooked up to their Disklaviers! But I do see this in the future. I wonder about the future of Disklaviers to be able to sync with MP3, MP4, HD or Blu ray media. Probably will require at least a 320 Gig hard drive, and a screaming fast processor that will generate enough heat to warm your entire house!
I agree that the art is in the actual performance and that is what makes it beautiful.. Since we all cannot be there to hear it live, preserving such art; duplicating the moment for all time; will be a continuing quest.
Carol Beigel
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Thursday, January 10, 2008 2:39 AM
Subject: Re: [disklavier] Quality sounds

I have a Roland digital piano that is almost 10 years old, and I admit, its sounds are a bit fake. It is most noticable in the bass and for notes of long duration. I have recently tried a 40gb piano sample library called Ivory, and it is the best piano samples I have ever heard. The only problem is that it requires a fast computer to run, and even then, still has lag problems when playing aggressively due to poor programming practices. I suggested some improvements, but they will probably not be implemented anytime soon.
Matthew
Show quoted textHide quoted text
On Jan 9, 2008 5:07 AM, Michael Weinstock <mweinstock@...> wrote:

Carol,
I very much enjoyed your thought provoking piece.
There is another aspect to this discussion... and that is the music being expressed with these sounds.
For example, I can listen to a 1920's recording of Rubenstein and be totally enraptured with the piano music I hear in spite of the monophonic somewhat scratchy reproduction from 80 years ago. In direct comparison I can listen to a modern day recording of the same piece with state of the art equipment and although the piano as a sound is significantly better quality, I might ;be left feeling relatively untouched by what I am hearing, especially when comparing my reaction to the 2 performances.
I think it important to keep in mind that those who seek the "perfect" sound is more often than not as a vehicle to hear music. It strikes me as potentially losing sight of why we are all so interested in these sounds in the first place when the focus shifts too far away from the end goal and sits exclusively on the vehicle by which it is achieved.
"Beauty" in terms of sound is very much in the ear of the beholder. What sounds good to one person is not necessarily what sounds good to another as you explained in tuning and voicing your client's pianos. What you prefer versus what they prefer can be distinctly different. We are dealing with human perceptions which is by definition subjective in nature. Whilst sound can be scientifically sampled measured and compared as mathematical tables of numbers at the end of the day it is the experience perceived by the listener that truly counts to my way of thinking.
I have a MKIII DGH1-BA. There is no doubt in my mind that I prefer the sound of an S series having been lucky enough to play on an S6 a few years back. Do I covet the thought of one day getting an S series MKIV disklavier. Absolutely... but whilst I wait for a winning lottery ticket its not going to detract from the enjoyment I get from my current instrument, even though its sound is a long way from the absolute pinnacle of what is available. I think the same thing applies in this discussion of tone generators. If it sounds good to you as a listener... be happy ! :) ;
Michael Weinstock
Melbourne, Australia
-----Original Message-----
From: disklavier@yahoogroups.com [mailto:disklavier@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Carol Beigel
Sent: Wednesday, 9 January 2008 7:53 AM
To: disklavier@...m
Subject: [disklavier] Quality sounds

I hope not too many find this off topic for a Disklavier list, but over the years I have heard many complaints about the quality of the Ensemble sounds coming from XG tone generator DB50 modules. Now, I have very simple ears, and think my MX100XG disklavier sounds great both on the piano (older model U1) and the DB50 tones coming through a single big Yamaha speaker. When my Disklavier is playing I am a very, very happy camper!
However, I am the first one to recognize that if I want to burn MIDI piano data to a CD to play on my stereo system, the digital audio sounds on my computer soundcard are awful. Those folks lucky enough to have a MarkIII Disklavier have an amplifier underneath the piano whose audio outputs produce an excellent piano sound for this purpose. For me, this all started when my father recorded some songs on my DKV and wanted me to burn a copy to a CD so he could listen to it in his car. I am still in the middle of this journey to find a better sound, so the remainder of this post will probably bore those not interested in the nature of what sounds good to different people.
In my search for something better, I discovered VST instruments which are the next generation of XG sounds. What makes them so much better? Can they be used like a tone generator? Since they are software programs, can they be installed on a computer and the sounds played through a stereo system?
Would something like the HALion 3.1 ($300) or the HALion Player ($129.99) on the Sternberg website substitute as a tone generator?
I have developed a curiosity over the years about what other people are hearing because they seem so devoted and adamant to finding the perfect sound. Also, my livelihood depends upon my ability to deliver quality piano sounds through tuning and voicing. Many times I am not in agreement with a client with a sound, but it is my job to produce what they want to hear and not push my own agenda. I am especially astounded when dealing with audio engineers who describe themselves as "purists" when what I hear in the recording booth differs so greatly from what I hear on the studio floor with the piano. This goes for concert stages as well. I will sometimes knock myself out to produce a beautiful sound to my ears on the stage only to creep into the theatre during a performance and be so disappointed at what I hear coming through the audio system.
I am amazed about how different shapes of microphones produce different sounds; how the more they cost the better they sound. Why? The Library of Congress is archiving their old vinyl collections (including parafin cylinders) using high resolution photography of the grooves to produce data that converts to digital audio called project Irene. Yet there are people who will only own stereo amplifiers with vacuum tubes and only play music from vinyl records because they say these are the best sounds. Some people say they can hear the difference between a VST piano and an audio recording of a real one. How can that be when the recording of a real one is mixed with reverb in the studio? when the artist wants a wetter or drier sound and still be a purist?????" I suppose the answer lies in the art of reproducing what we hear as soundwaves with our ears to a table of numbers.
Is the perfect sound coming through a speaker just a table of numbers? That when you buy a reverb kit with may options, they are just different tables of numbers? That when audio engineers push those sliders up and down on a control board, that they are just creating a different table of numbers? That XG sounds are the parameters, but the little doodads on the circuit boards send a data stream that is just another table of numbers? Is that what an artist is today - someone who can skillfully manipulate a column of numbers to produce the perfect sound?
Carol Beigel


Internal Virus Database is out-of-date.
Checked by AVG Free Edition.
Version: 7.5.516 / Virus Database: 269.17.13 - Release Date: 31/12/2007 12:00 AM


Internal Virus Database is out-of-date.
Checked by AVG Free Edition.
Version: 7.5.516 / Virus Database: 269.17.13 - Release Date: 31/12/2007 12:00 AM


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