Elektron Musical Instruments

I tried the MM and I love the sound, but it is unusable for me, as I musicaly need to tweek 
the parameters all the time. On the MM you need to twiddle in windows to change between 
lfos, filters, effects and so on. I cant twiddle windows while im playing!!! Also the knobs is 
unusable, fingers get tired after minutes, because the knobs need to be pressed in to hold 
their position, otherwise they jump out to a second mode. Also the knobs are slippery, 
they should have a rubber surface, or something that would make a grip.


So to controll all the parameters, i need a midi controller!

Has someone experianced this? Is it hard to assign it external controllers?


Regards,
Kim Svendsen

On Oct 13, 2004, at 7:57 PM, ze2be wrote:

> On the MM you need to twiddle in windows to change between
>  lfos, filters, effects and so on.

true. but the tradeoff is that you get endless rotaries to control the 
parameters
and the price is a lot cheaper than it would be if everything had a 
dedicated knob
(look at the nord lead 3, for example).

>  I cant twiddle windows while im playing!!! Also the knobs is
>  unusable, fingers get tired after minutes, because the knobs need to 
> be pressed in to hold
>  their position, otherwise they jump out to a second mode.

this isn't exactly correct. the knobs only need to be pushed in to 
accelerate
change in parameters. in other words, if you don't push them in, the 
value changes
by one with each "tick" as you turn it; if you do push them in, it 
changes by seven
with each "tick." there's no other second mode that they can jump to if 
released.

true, it may not be the best set up for someone wishing to play and 
tweak.  but I
think the focus was slightly more towards the "interactive sequencing" 
end.  most
people (it seems) use the keyboard to write sequences and then tweak 
later.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

--- In elektron-users@yahoogroups.com, Joseph Melnyk <jmelnyk@c...> wrote:
> On Oct 13, 2004, at 7:57 PM, ze2be wrote:
> 
> > On the MM you need to twiddle in windows to change between
> >  lfos, filters, effects and so on.
> 
> true. but the tradeoff is that you get endless rotaries to control the 
> parameters
> and the price is a lot cheaper than it would be if everything had a 
> dedicated knob
> (look at the nord lead 3, for example).
> 
> >  I cant twiddle windows while im playing!!! Also the knobs is
> >  unusable, fingers get tired after minutes, because the knobs need to 
> > be pressed in to hold
> >  their position, otherwise they jump out to a second mode.
> 
> this isn't exactly correct. the knobs only need to be pushed in to 
> accelerate
> change in parameters. in other words, if you don't push them in, the 
> value changes
> by one with each "tick" as you turn it; if you do push them in, it 
> changes by seven
> with each "tick." there's no other second mode that they can jump to if 
> released.
> 
> true, it may not be the best set up for someone wishing to play and 
> tweak.  but I
> think the focus was slightly more towards the "interactive sequencing" 
> end.  most
> people (it seems) use the keyboard to write sequences and then tweak 
> later.
> 
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

I know, or I defenitly did when I tried it. But the fact that I deeply love thae
hart of this synth, maks me want to play it!! Im seriously thinking of getting an Alesis
Photon-X25, as it has endless controllers, just to play the MM!

Regarding the click/second mode function knobs. When I play, I need to get the
full range of the knob, in one turn, not 10 turns! But are you saying you just need press
the knob once, and it stays there? You dont have to keep it pushed? Thats funny, because
when I tested it, I puched them all thwe time, it made my fingers go white of blood
loss!! heheh!

Well, still I would need an external controller. Do you know if ALL the
parameters can be assigned to different external controllers, or do they share the knobs, 
like on the MM? So that you have to press shift to go between lfo and filter, on the same 
knob, foreksample.

Thanks :-)
Kim Svendsen

On Oct 14, 2004, at 6:36 PM, ze2be wrote:

>  I know, or I defenitly did when I tried it. But the fact that I 
> deeply love thae hart of this
>  synth, maks me want to play it!! Im seriously thinking of getting an 
> Alesis Photon-X25, as
>  it has endless controllers, just to play the MM!

it will be the same situation. except you'll have a few more (is it 8 
or 10 with that
controller?) of them. you'd have to have a controller with 8*7*6 = 336 
knobs to control the
MnM without pressing buttons, since there are 8 parameters per pages, 7 
pages
per track and 6 tracks.


>  But are you saying you just need press the button
>  once, and it stays there? You dont have to keep it pushed? Thats 
> funny, because when I
>  tested it, I puched them all thwe time, it made my fingers go white 
> of blood loss!! heheh!

no. you have to keep them depressed in order to use the coarse 
adjustment.  but when
you let up, the value stays where you left it; it doesn't jump anywhere.

> Well, still I would need an external controller. Do you know if ALL 
> the parameters can be
>  assigned to different external controllers, or do they share the 
> knobs, like on the MM? So
>  that you have to press shift to go between lfo and filter, on the 
> same knob, foreksample

each parameter has its own controller. but since there are so many of 
them, I believe
they are mapped to NRPN number rather than CC. and each track occupies 
its
own MIDI channel.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

--- In elektron-users@yahoogroups.com, Joseph Melnyk <jmelnyk@c...> wrote:
> On Oct 14, 2004, at 6:36 PM, ze2be wrote:

> >  I know, or I defenitly did when I tried it. But the fact that I 
> > deeply love thae hart of this
> >  synth, maks me want to play it!! Im seriously thinking of getting an 
> > Alesis Photon-X25, as
> >  it has endless controllers, just to play the MM!

> except you'll have a few more (is it 8 
> or 10 with that
> controller?) of them. you'd have to have a controller with 8*7*6 = 336 
> knobs to control the
> MnM without pressing buttons, since there are 8 parameters per pages, 7 
> pages
> per track and 6 tracks.


Yes I know, but I would select the ones that I use mostly musicaly. like the synth section of 
the machines, tune, filters, lfos, and others that gives expression to the sound. I could live 
with a selection of about 10-12 of the most important. I checked, and they are also fairly 
located on the same spot, throughout the different machines.


> it will be the same situation.

For me, it will be a totaly different situasion ;-)



> >  But are you saying you just need press the button
> >  once, and it stays there? You dont have to keep it pushed? Thats 
> > funny, because when I
> >  tested it, I puched them all thwe time, it made my fingers go white 
> > of blood loss!! heheh!

> no. you have to keep them depressed in order to use the coarse 
> adjustment.  but when
> you let up, the value stays where you left it; it doesn't jump anywhere.


Right, this also makes a day or night situation for me, regarding the use of a good 
external controller :-)

 
> > Well, still I would need an external controller. Do you know if ALL 
> > the parameters can be
> >  assigned to different external controllers, or do they share the 
> > knobs, like on the MM? So
> >  that you have to press shift to go between lfo and filter, on the 
> > same knob, foreksample

> each parameter has its own controller. but since there are so many of 
> them, I believe
> they are mapped to NRPN number rather than CC. and each track occupies 
> its
> own MIDI channel.

I read tha manual yesterday, and found that the controllers I was interested in picking out 
had two types of numbers; Hex and Dec. What is this, and how do I set it up on a regular 
CC controller surface, do you think?

Thanks!

Kim Svendsen

That's why they made the keyboard version, the joystick may be all you need.
You can assign 8 parameters per track and controll all tracks at once so that's 6x8 parameters! Everytime I use this I'm amazed by the power of control on the overall sonic experience.

Ronald.

--- In elektron-users@yahoogroups.com, Roonan@p... wrote:
> That's why they made the keyboard version, the joystick may be all you need.
> You can assign 8 parameters per track and controll all tracks at once so that's 6x8 
parameters! Everytime I use this I'm amazed by the power of control on the overall sonic 
experience.
> 
> Ronald.


Heheheh!! Thats exactly what I dont want!

When I play a synth, I express with parameters like tune, filter, lfo etc. Much like a singer 
uses her voice. Applying them all to the same controller, would take me no where, but if 
its fine by you, thats good for you!
Do you realy need me to explane why? When you use the joystick, you force the same 
amount to all the assigned parameters, did you not think of this? heheh! :-) 
Its like playing the piano with a shovel, using all your fingers/2 hands to hold it vs. using 
your 10 fingers/2 hands playing different keys on the piano.

Im going to build an instrument of midi components, to get more expressions out of 
synths. In the meen time, im thinking of controling the MM with a Doepfer Pocket Dial.
It has 16 endless programable knobs, and it should work fine. Ill asign the most musicaly 
important parameters, and after my calculations, it should just about be ok with 16.

Im not a piano player, im a progressive synth tweeker that is forced to use keys. I feel 
musicians on other instruments more easy understands my need of expressing a synth as 
an instrument!


Regards,
Kim Svendsen

On Oct 15, 2004, at 4:49 AM, ze2be wrote:

>  Heheheh!! Thats exactly what I dont want!
>
>  When I play a synth, I express with parameters like tune, filter, lfo 
> etc. Much like a singer
>  uses her voice. Applying them all to the same controller, would take 
> me no where, but if
>  its fine by you, thats good for you!
>  Do you realy need me to explane why? When you use the joystick, you 
> force the same
>  amount to all the assigned parameters, did you not think of this? 
> heheh! :-)

no you don't.  each joystick parameter can be assigned an amount by 
which
it is effected when the joystick is pushed in the respective direction. 
  so you can
set your LFO speed to double when you push the joystick right, but have 
your
delay speed only increase by three when you push the joystick left, for 
example.

Roonan has an excellent point here. if all you want to control is 6 or 
8 parameters
(of your choice), then the joystick would be ideal for this.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

--- In elektron-users@yahoogroups.com, Joseph Melnyk <jmelnyk@c...> wrote:
> On Oct 15, 2004, at 4:49 AM, ze2be wrote:
> 
> >  Heheheh!! Thats exactly what I dont want!
> >
> >  When I play a synth, I express with parameters like tune, filter, lfo 
> > etc. Much like a singer
> >  uses her voice. Applying them all to the same controller, would take 
> > me no where, but if
> >  its fine by you, thats good for you!
> >  Do you realy need me to explane why? When you use the joystick, you 
> > force the same
> >  amount to all the assigned parameters, did you not think of this? 
> > heheh! :-)
> 
> no you don't.  each joystick parameter can be assigned an amount by 
> which
> it is effected when the joystick is pushed in the respective direction. 
>   so you can
> set your LFO speed to double when you push the joystick right, but have 
> your
> delay speed only increase by three when you push the joystick left, for 
> example.
> 
> Roonan has an excellent point here. if all you want to control is 6 or 
> 8 parameters
> (of your choice), then the joystick would be ideal for this.
> 

heheheh!

Sorry, but you dont understand this eghther!
Its simple fellas, do your math if you wish! If my language was english, I would easily clear 
this out for you. But let me try: Either way, if you apply different amount of effect on each 
controller, they will still follow the same curve, as you only use one master controller, 
namly the joustick! Tataa!! Was that difficult to understand?

If you have seperate knobs, they can go seperate paterns. Think musical, not robot 
paterns!! Try driving the car moving the stearing wheel, the speed pedal, and the brakes in 
the eksact same tempo! Id say you need a driving licence ;-)

Kim ;-)

--- In elektron-users@yahoogroups.com, "ze2be" <kimotei@g...> wrote:
> 
> --- In elektron-users@yahoogroups.com, Joseph Melnyk <jmelnyk@c...> 
wrote:
> > On Oct 15, 2004, at 4:49 AM, ze2be wrote:
> > 
> > >  Heheheh!! Thats exactly what I dont want!
> > >
> > >  When I play a synth, I express with parameters like tune, 
filter, lfo 
> > > etc. Much like a singer
> > >  uses her voice. Applying them all to the same controller, 
would take 
> > > me no where, but if
> > >  its fine by you, thats good for you!
> > >  Do you realy need me to explane why? When you use the 
joystick, you 
> > > force the same
> > >  amount to all the assigned parameters, did you not think of 
this? 
> > > heheh! :-)
> > 
> > no you don't.  each joystick parameter can be assigned an amount 
by 
> > which
> > it is effected when the joystick is pushed in the respective 
direction. 
> >   so you can
> > set your LFO speed to double when you push the joystick right, 
but have 
> > your
> > delay speed only increase by three when you push the joystick 
left, for 
> > example.
> > 
> > Roonan has an excellent point here. if all you want to control is 
6 or 
> > 8 parameters
> > (of your choice), then the joystick would be ideal for this.
> > 
> 
> heheheh!
> 
> Sorry, but you dont understand this eghther!
> Its simple fellas, do your math if you wish! If my language was 
english, I would easily clear 
> this out for you. But let me try: Either way, if you apply 
different amount of effect on each 
> controller, they will still follow the same curve, as you only use 
one master controller, 
> namly the joustick! Tataa!! Was that difficult to understand?
> 
> If you have seperate knobs, they can go seperate paterns. Think 
musical, not robot 
> paterns!! Try driving the car moving the stearing wheel, the speed 
pedal, and the brakes in 
> the eksact same tempo! Id say you need a driving licence ;-)
> 
> Kim ;-)

OUCH!!  :)

On Oct 15, 2004, at 11:37 AM, ze2be wrote:

>  Either way, if you apply different amount of effect on each
>  controller, they will still follow the same curve, as you only use 
> one master controller,
>  namly the joustick! Tataa!! Was that difficult to understand?

I don't think that you clearly understand the joystick.  it's almost 
exactly the same
as using the knobs themselves and this "curve" is defined by the way 
that you
move the joystick.  also, you don't change several parameters at once 
unless you
want to.  if you move left and only LFO speed is assigned to the left 
ONLY LFO
speed is effected.

if you still don't believe me then go back to where you demo-ed the MnM 
and
try this out.

by the way, please lighten up your attitude.  we're trying to help you, 
after all.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

--- In elektron-users@yahoogroups.com, "ze2be" <kimotei@g...> wrote:
> 
> --- In elektron-users@yahoogroups.com, Joseph Melnyk <jmelnyk@c...> 
wrote:
> > On Oct 15, 2004, at 4:49 AM, ze2be wrote:
> > 
> > >  Heheheh!! Thats exactly what I dont want!
> > >
> > >  When I play a synth, I express with parameters like tune, 
filter, lfo 
> > > etc. Much like a singer
> > >  uses her voice. Applying them all to the same controller, 
would take 
> > > me no where, but if
> > >  its fine by you, thats good for you!
> > >  Do you realy need me to explane why? When you use the 
joystick, you 
> > > force the same
> > >  amount to all the assigned parameters, did you not think of 
this? 
> > > heheh! :-)
> > 
> > no you don't.  each joystick parameter can be assigned an amount 
by 
> > which
> > it is effected when the joystick is pushed in the respective 
direction. 
> >   so you can
> > set your LFO speed to double when you push the joystick right, 
but have 
> > your
> > delay speed only increase by three when you push the joystick 
left, for 
> > example.
> > 
> > Roonan has an excellent point here. if all you want to control is 
6 or 
> > 8 parameters
> > (of your choice), then the joystick would be ideal for this.
> > 
> 
> heheheh!
> 
> Sorry, but you dont understand this eghther!
> Its simple fellas, do your math if you wish! If my language was 
english, I would easily clear 
> this out for you. But let me try: Either way, if you apply 
different amount of effect on each 
> controller, they will still follow the same curve, as you only use 
one master controller, 
> namly the joustick! Tataa!! Was that difficult to understand?
> 
> If you have seperate knobs, they can go seperate paterns. Think 
musical, not robot 
> paterns!! Try driving the car moving the stearing wheel, the speed 
pedal, and the brakes in 
> the eksact same tempo! Id say you need a driving licence ;-)
> 
> Kim ;-)

the joystick sounds like fun! i suppose unless you are an irradiated 
octopus, its hard to turn 16 little knobs at the same time anyway. 
check out the kenton control freak with 16 sliders - its rad! or for 
those more technically minded, www.ucapps.de 
greetoids, gaB

--- In elektron-users@yahoogroups.com, Joseph Melnyk <jmelnyk@c...> wrote:
> On Oct 15, 2004, at 11:37 AM, ze2be wrote:
> 
> >  Either way, if you apply different amount of effect on each
> >  controller, they will still follow the same curve, as you only use 
> > one master controller,
> >  namly the joustick! Tataa!! Was that difficult to understand?
> 
> I don't think that you clearly understand the joystick.  it's almost 
> exactly the same
> as using the knobs themselves and this "curve" is defined by the way 
> that you
> move the joystick.  also, you don't change several parameters at once 
> unless you
> want to.  if you move left and only LFO speed is assigned to the left 
> ONLY LFO
> speed is effected.
> 
> if you still don't believe me then go back to where you demo-ed the MnM 
> and
> try this out.
> 
> by the way, please lighten up your attitude.  we're trying to help you, 
> after all.

Sorry, did not meen to make you mad, it was just so tempting!

I dont know how i can make this clearer for you...

I think you just missunderstand me! If you are to controll two or more CCs from the same 
controller, theyd have to follow the same movement patterns you make, regardless of 
what amount they each have been given to move inside.

Of cource controlling one parameter with one joystick, is the same as controlling the same 
parameter with one knob! Maybe you did not read all the posts..

Kind regards,
Kim Svendsen

--- In elektron-users@yahoogroups.com, "analogback" <gehayman@h...> wrote:
> 
> --- In elektron-users@yahoogroups.com, "ze2be" <kimotei@g...> wrote:
> > 
> > --- In elektron-users@yahoogroups.com, Joseph Melnyk <jmelnyk@c...> 
> wrote:
> > > On Oct 15, 2004, at 4:49 AM, ze2be wrote:
> > > 
> > > >  Heheheh!! Thats exactly what I dont want!
> > > >
> > > >  When I play a synth, I express with parameters like tune, 
> filter, lfo 
> > > > etc. Much like a singer
> > > >  uses her voice. Applying them all to the same controller, 
> would take 
> > > > me no where, but if
> > > >  its fine by you, thats good for you!
> > > >  Do you realy need me to explane why? When you use the 
> joystick, you 
> > > > force the same
> > > >  amount to all the assigned parameters, did you not think of 
> this? 
> > > > heheh! :-)
> > > 
> > > no you don't.  each joystick parameter can be assigned an amount 
> by 
> > > which
> > > it is effected when the joystick is pushed in the respective 
> direction. 
> > >   so you can
> > > set your LFO speed to double when you push the joystick right, 
> but have 
> > > your
> > > delay speed only increase by three when you push the joystick 
> left, for 
> > > example.
> > > 
> > > Roonan has an excellent point here. if all you want to control is 
> 6 or 
> > > 8 parameters
> > > (of your choice), then the joystick would be ideal for this.
> > > 
> > 
> > heheheh!
> > 
> > Sorry, but you dont understand this eghther!
> > Its simple fellas, do your math if you wish! If my language was 
> english, I would easily clear 
> > this out for you. But let me try: Either way, if you apply 
> different amount of effect on each 
> > controller, they will still follow the same curve, as you only use 
> one master controller, 
> > namly the joustick! Tataa!! Was that difficult to understand?
> > 
> > If you have seperate knobs, they can go seperate paterns. Think 
> musical, not robot 
> > paterns!! Try driving the car moving the stearing wheel, the speed 
> pedal, and the brakes in 
> > the eksact same tempo! Id say you need a driving licence ;-)
> > 
> > Kim ;-)
> 
> the joystick sounds like fun! i suppose unless you are an irradiated 
> octopus, its hard to turn 16 little knobs at the same time anyway. 
> check out the kenton control freak with 16 sliders - its rad! or for 
> those more technically minded, www.ucapps.de 
> greetoids, gaB

Yeah, I dig the joystick too! control freak is cool. Nice midi boxes on ucapps!! Check out 
the Doepfer pocket dial! it has 16 endless knobs, and should be great with the MM! But 
best of all would be the IBK 10 Control, which bouth have endless knobs, and seperate 
leds for each controller!! To bad it only have 10 knobs..

Still it would be perfect with the MM.

Regarding octopus, youd get closer to that if you use two midi pedals at the same time,
one for each foot, and bouth hands on seperate controller knobs ;-)

Kim

>> I don't think that you clearly understand the joystick.  it's almost
>> exactly the same
>> as using the knobs themselves and this "curve" is defined by the way
>> that you
>> move the joystick.  also, you don't change several parameters at once
>> unless you
>> want to.  if you move left and only LFO speed is assigned to the left
>> ONLY LFO
>> speed is effected.
>>
>> if you still don't believe me then go back to where you demo-ed the 
>> MnM
>> and
>> try this out.
>>
>> by the way, please lighten up your attitude.  we're trying to help 
>> you,
>> after all.
>
> Sorry, did not meen to make you mad, it was just so tempting!
>
> I dont know how i can make this clearer for you...
>
> I think you just missunderstand me! If you are to controll two or more 
> CCs from the same
> controller, theyd have to follow the same movement patterns you make, 
> regardless of
> what amount they each have been given to move inside.
>
> Of cource controlling one parameter with one joystick, is the same as 
> controlling the same
> parameter with one knob! Maybe you did not read all the posts..
>

I don't own a MnM, but other users are trying to explain that you can 
control various parameters INDEPENDENTLY with its joystick.

If you assign a parameter to the left movement, pushing the joystick to 
the right won't influence this parameter.

But if you assign an other parameter to the up movement, then you can 
play with left-up at once, moving diagonally.
Looks nice :-)

Hope I've understood what you meant in your last post.

--- In elektron-users@yahoogroups.com, Federico Ciapi <federico.ciapi@t...> wrote:
> >> I don't think that you clearly understand the joystick.  it's almost
> >> exactly the same
> >> as using the knobs themselves and this "curve" is defined by the way
> >> that you
> >> move the joystick.  also, you don't change several parameters at once
> >> unless you
> >> want to.  if you move left and only LFO speed is assigned to the left
> >> ONLY LFO
> >> speed is effected.
> >>
> >> if you still don't believe me then go back to where you demo-ed the 
> >> MnM
> >> and
> >> try this out.
> >>
> >> by the way, please lighten up your attitude.  we're trying to help 
> >> you,
> >> after all.
> >
> > Sorry, did not meen to make you mad, it was just so tempting!
> >
> > I dont know how i can make this clearer for you...
> >
> > I think you just missunderstand me! If you are to controll two or more 
> > CCs from the same
> > controller, theyd have to follow the same movement patterns you make, 
> > regardless of
> > what amount they each have been given to move inside.
> >
> > Of cource controlling one parameter with one joystick, is the same as 
> > controlling the same
> > parameter with one knob! Maybe you did not read all the posts..
> >
> 
> I don't own a MnM, but other users are trying to explain that you can 
> control various parameters INDEPENDENTLY with its joystick.
> 
> If you assign a parameter to the left movement, pushing the joystick to 
> the right won't influence this parameter.
> 
> But if you assign an other parameter to the up movement, then you can 
> play with left-up at once, moving diagonally.
> Looks nice :-)
> 
> Hope I've understood what you meant in your last post.

You cant move two parameters in totaly different movement patterns at the same time 
with one controller, the way you can with seperate controllers on each hand. thats all.
The difference is that seperate controllers can have totaly seperate moves, thus when the 
joystick master controlls their movent in one move, logicaly because it is...well only one! It 
then makes no difference wether or not they are given seperate movement space, it forces 
them to take the same moves, regardless, though of cource they will react less or more as 
you have selected the space they are given to move within. If you assigne one controller to 
only leftside, and another to only right side of the joystick, you can not modulate bouth 
continuasly at once. 

if it is difficult to understand, then im sorry for my bad english!

> You cant move two parameters in totaly different movement patterns at 
> the same time
> with one controller, the way you can with seperate controllers on each 
> hand. thats all.
> The difference is that seperate controllers can have totaly seperate 
> moves, thus when the
> joystick master controlls their movent in one move, logicaly because 
> it is...well only one! It
> then makes no difference wether or not they are given seperate 
> movement space, it forces
> them to take the same moves, regardless, though of cource they will 
> react less or more as
> you have selected the space they are given to move within. If you 
> assigne one controller to
> only leftside, and another to only right side of the joystick, you can 
> not modulate bouth
> continuasly at once.


Understood.

If you already know what you want and you seem (read think) to know 
the MnM better then the owners on this list, why bother?
Go and buy your control unit and stop sending (anoying) posts.

Ronald.

(btw Behringer has a nice one: the BCR 2000, 24 high-resolution 
encoders with LED rings for ultimate control over virtual mixers, 
synths, samplers and effects processors)

> heheheh!
> 
> Sorry, but you dont understand this eghther!
> Its simple fellas, do your math if you wish! If my language was 
english, I would easily clear 
> this out for you. But let me try: Either way, if you apply 
different amount of effect on each 
> controller, they will still follow the same curve, as you only use 
one master controller, 
> namly the joustick! Tataa!! Was that difficult to understand?
> 
> If you have seperate knobs, they can go seperate paterns. Think 
musical, not robot 
> paterns!! Try driving the car moving the stearing wheel, the speed 
pedal, and the brakes in 
> the eksact same tempo! Id say you need a driving licence ;-)
> 
> Kim ;-)

Heheheh! 

Quite a control freak.. Think musical, not engineer. :P
(sorry couldn't resist)

Toni.

On Oct 15, 2004, at 2:30 PM, ze2be wrote:

>  You cant move two parameters in totaly different movement patterns at 
> the same time
>  with one controller, the way you can with seperate controllers on 
> each hand. thats all.

well if you have two hands free to tweak parameters then why did you 
bring up this
subject anyway?  I thought the whole problem was that you wanted to 
play the
keys with one hand and tweak with the other.

> If you assigne one controller to
>  only leftside, and another to only right side of the joystick, you 
> can not modulate bouth
>  continuasly at once.

no. but if you assign one to the left and one to the bottom and put the 
joystick
somewhere in between you can control them both. AND with separate 
amounts
and curves for each one, since they are independent.

I don't have too much else to offer on this subject.  I cannot make 
this any more
clear.  I would still suggest you demo it again and try the joystick 
out.  if not, if you
really want to spend an extra $150+ on a MIDI controller that you don't 
need, then
go right ahead.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

--- In elektron-users@yahoogroups.com, "Roonan" <Roonan@p...> wrote:
> 
> If you already know what you want and you seem (read think) to know 
> the MnM better then the owners on this list, why bother?
> Go and buy your control unit and stop sending (anoying) posts.
> 
> Ronald.
> 
> (btw Behringer has a nice one: the BCR 2000, 24 high-resolution 
> encoders with LED rings for ultimate control over virtual mixers, 
> synths, samplers and effects processors)

If you are anoyed by your own stupidity, it is not my fault.

Yeah, I know things, n'all... why you bother, if you dont?

If someone have constructive input on the question, PLEASE respond!

berhinger is big'n'heavy, and only 8 endless parameters. No good for 
MM.

--- In elektron-users@yahoogroups.com, "tahvenaine2002" 
<toni.ahvenainen@p...> wrote:
> 
> > heheheh!
> > 
> > Sorry, but you dont understand this eghther!
> > Its simple fellas, do your math if you wish! If my language was 
> english, I would easily clear 
> > this out for you. But let me try: Either way, if you apply 
> different amount of effect on each 
> > controller, they will still follow the same curve, as you only 
use 
> one master controller, 
> > namly the joustick! Tataa!! Was that difficult to understand?
> > 
> > If you have seperate knobs, they can go seperate paterns. Think 
> musical, not robot 
> > paterns!! Try driving the car moving the stearing wheel, the 
speed 
> pedal, and the brakes in 
> > the eksact same tempo! Id say you need a driving licence ;-)
> > 
> > Kim ;-)
> 
> Heheheh! 
> 
> Quite a control freak.. Think musical, not engineer. :P
> (sorry couldn't resist)
> 
> Toni.

heheheheeh!! If you ask, you get. ;-)

I have to agree with Joseph, being annoyed by your refusal to accept any
advice give to you.

It is obvious that assigning one parameter to left and one to bottom will
allow you to control two different parameters with different curves using
the one controller.

The joystick is a two axis controller, that is why you can control two
different parameters. Moving it left to right affects one parameter, moving
it up and down affects another...you can not compare this to a knob which
only goes left to right.

A knob is a single axis controller, that is why you would need two knobs to
control two different parameters with different curves.

In terms of your car analogy, you could replace the steering wheel,
accelerator and brake with a single joystick...left to right on the joystick
would equate to the steering wheel...centre to up on the joystick would
replace the accelerator...centre to down on the joystick would replace the
brake. This would give you all three normal single axis controllers on the
single two axis joystick controller. You can control each parameter with a
different curve...moving left to right on the joystick does not affect the
up/down position, until you actually move it up or down.

You seem to be unable to understand the difference between a single axis
knob, and a two axis joystick.

It is your stupidity ze2be that is causing the annoyance...maybe you should
go back to school and learn your maths over again!

Simon
Canberra
AUSTRALIA

-----Original Message-----
From: ze2be
To: elektron-users@yahoogroups.com
Sent: 17/10/2004 1:15 PM
Subject: [elektron] Re: external controll of MM?

If you are anoyed by your own stupidity, it is not my fault.


-----Original Message-----
From: ze2be
To: elektron-users@yahoogroups.com
Sent: 16/10/2004 1:37 AM
Subject: [elektron] Re: external controll of MM?

Its simple fellas, do your math if you wish! If my language was english,
I would easily clear 
this out for you. But let me try: Either way, if you apply different
amount of effect on each 
controller, they will still follow the same curve, as you only use one
master controller, 
namly the joustick! Tataa!! Was that difficult to understand?

If you have seperate knobs, they can go seperate paterns. Think musical,
not robot 
paterns!! Try driving the car moving the stearing wheel, the speed
pedal, and the brakes in 
the eksact same tempo! Id say you need a driving licence ;-)

Kim ;-)
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Hi!

Read this thread with interessert and amuse! Thought I might add
something to the rumble.

I think you might benefit in checking out the machinedrum before you
decide. I find it easier to tweak and be fluid on the machinedrum than
the mono, there's something, very subjectively, better for realtime
operation in the interface. The shift/function knob makes most of those
things a one-hander on the 'drum, not so on the mono(why is it on the
left side???). The machinedrum only have three windows, with two
normally in use(synth/filter), so it's very easy to jump around in it.
And a few more small things that gives it the edge. Doesn't make the
mono any bad, it's brilliant as well, I just find the drum better in
the realtime department. Have had the drum for a year and the mono for
a few weeks, so I'm biased, take it as you want.


I don't have a car licence, only motorcycle ;), but I'll add something
to the debate anyway. Ever tried a computer car simulator with a
joystick? It drives, turns and brakes better than I do in a real car!
Hehe.. 

There's a lot to be done with several knobs or sliders - but you can
only do that much at once with two hands. The joystick and it's
flexible assignment lets you do more simultaneously. 

That said, I've been pondering a small controller for the mono as well.
But I can't make up my mind if it's worth it. Might not pay off in
extra creativity, just lead me into spending too much time assigning
midi CC's and doing boring setup stuff! There's too much to control, it
feels like locking a few parameters to external knobs wouldn't do much
of a difference. There'll always be a hoard of other parameters that
are not assigned. 


>Also the knobs is unusable ...

I hereby challenge you to find better! Gimme a shout if you do,
especially in a midi controller, would be very nice. 

They're actually quite wonderful. The elektron machine knobs are a neat
solution to virtual knobs, perfect for tweaking parameters in different
windows fast. 

Recently did a 16 hour machinedrum session to finnish off tracks for a
festival and trust me the knobs won't hurt your fingers.. You can
definitely go from zero to max with an easy twist! Just push down, not
hard(..), just enough, and it jumps around fast. 


>Has someone experianced this? Is it hard to assign it external 
controllers?

Depends on the controller. But I would look into those endless rotary
before buying, have a hunch they might be built for computer use only.
Might need processing before being compatible with normal midi if it's
sysex or something other weird format. 


Just my .14 norwegian krone. :)


cheers,

Andreas / Norway

First of all, sorry Joseph for insulting you. I had no right to do that. I was real drunk 
yesterday, came home from a bar, and was a wee grumpy. I am a bitch and i know that, 
but I should not behave like this on a forum. Again, im sorry.


Andreas, hvor i norge er du fra? :-)

Interesting what you say about the machinedrum! But still it has the filter section and the 
synth section on seperate menues. (Does it have the same knob system as MM, where you 
have to keep them pressed, to get "normal" mode?)

But let me first clear out that the way I personaly play synths, is what decides whats good 
and bad for me, not how others play. Because the style im playing, im twisting all 
parameters all the time. I can play for hours on other synths, but on the MM my fingers get 
tired after minutes. Now if people have a problem with the style im playing, that is another 
discussion that I would be more then happy to join in another thread. But in this thread my 
question was simpe: How does it work to conect an external controller?

Why the joystick want do it for me, is that I dont have time to program it, as I tweak 
different parameters each time I play. I rather have seperate controllers so I can quickly 
choose which I want to blend. I might blend many within short time, each with 
individual movement patterns. And, yes Im aware that I only have two hands, that was 
mentioned in another post, but rest ashured, ive been playing with the idea of using 2 
aditionaly controllers with my feet, namly midi pedals, heheh! ;-) 

It is important that I dont need to keep the knobs pressed. It is a must that I have 
immediate full lenght of the knob within 360 degrees. I tweek fast. Rapid changes in lfos 
and filters etc. I need smooth controllers with good grip! I drive formel 1, I dont cruze 
around, heheh ;-) If you need an example, the virus has exelent knobs, good grip and 
tight responsiveness. I like the idea of a second mode on the buttons of the MM, but they 
should rather be pulled out to get the zoom/highrez mode, in my personal opinion. Well it 
would greatly improve my playability on this instrument! I respect that people have 
different playing styles. All others I know that represent the same style of music and have 
tested the MM, compleately agree with me. Of cource, because we tweek super quick 
changes in the sound, all the time.

For everybody that seem to not understand the way I tweek, the joystick simply want do it 
for me, though i dig it, and im happy you like it too ;-) Please respect that I have a 
different playing style. I have a synth already with a programable joystick, the remote 25 
audio, and trust me, it want work the way I twist!

As for contollers with endles knobs, ive been reading also that they are generaly ment to 
be used with software. So unfortunately there is a big risk the parameters will jump still. 
Have someone tried, and can confirm how it works with MM?

> I don't have a car licence, only motorcycle ;), but I'll add something
> to the debate anyway. Ever tried a computer car simulator with a
> joystick? It drives, turns and brakes better than I do in a real car!
> Hehe.. 

heheheh!! My hopes where high, before I tried it!!!

> There's a lot to be done with several knobs or sliders - but you can
> only do that much at once with two hands. The joystick and it's
> flexible assignment lets you do more simultaneously. 

Shure, but in preset patern, and preset movement responds. And again, the way I blend 
controllers, youd be superman to tweek the joystick in the movements I do, on seperate 
knobs. Also youd need to change joystick programs all the time while tweeking.
As long as you dont need this, the joystick is exelent!

> >Also the knobs is unusable ...
> 
> I hereby challenge you to find better! Gimme a shout if you do,
> especially in a midi controller, would be very nice. 

That is simple, about all others that have knobs from the early vintage 70ties gear, and up 
to date! (Still, im talking my style of playing.)

> They're actually quite wonderful. The elektron machine knobs are a neat
> solution to virtual knobs, perfect for tweaking parameters in different
> windows fast. 

Great for programing! But for me, hopeless to tweek live, but then again they werent ment 
to be. Therefore I ask if someone have tried to use external controllers, as I love the sound 
of MM, and would love to be able to tweek them the way I play, live and direct.

Ive been looking at the doepfler pocket dial. http://www.doepfer.de/pd.htm
It has 16 endles knobs. What you do is running a program from your PC with usb 
conection to the pocket dial, and simply save the cc setings you wish. 

Heres a quick sketch of an MM settings program, on the pocket dials 16 knobs: 1-2-3-4
-5-6 selections of the most important 8 parts of the synths, 7-8 LP and HP filter, 9-10 
pan and distortion, 11-12 fx send and feedback delay, 13-14-15-16 lfo1 speed, lfo1 
depth, lf2 speed, lfo2 depth. 
Lfo3 can be used for bussing to effects, or something pre-programed. This is just a quick 
drawing, but the idea is to pick out a setting that is more or less the same for all the 
machines. And it should about do it like this. Now i can quickly and freely blend what I 
want, the way I work with most other synths.

Saving this to the pocket dial wont take that much time and also be a one time operation. 
It would work more or less with all the machines. Ive been reading through the manual, 
and most of the parameters exept the synth/first section is located in the same places/
under the same control numbers throughout the machines. All the cc is written down in 
the manual. The nice people at elektron have also been very helpfull in this project of 
mine, a big thanks to them!

Thanks for all help in this matter!


Kind Regards,
Kim "rude" Svendsen ;-)

> First of all, sorry Joseph for insulting you. I had no right to do 
that. I was real drunk 
> yesterday, came home from a bar, and was a wee grumpy. I am a bitch 
and i know that, 
> but I should not behave like this on a forum. Again, im sorry.

This is an reasonable explanation and apologies. The guy is ok, after 
all. :)

Toni.

There is a lot of talk about how the MnM and MD won't
work because of the style/technique you play. I would
love to hear some samples of it, if possible. 

Thanks!
tyko 

--- ze2be <kimotei@...> wrote:

> But let me first clear out that the way I personaly
> play synths, is what decides whats good 
> and bad for me, not how others play. Because the
> style im playing, im twisting all 
> parameters all the time. I can play for hours on
> other synths, but on the MM my fingers get 
> tired after minutes. Now if people have a problem
> with the style im playing, that is another 
> discussion that I would be more then happy to join
> in another thread. But in this thread my 
> question was simpe: How does it work to conect an
> external controller?
> 
> Thanks for all help in this matter!
> 
> 
> Kind Regards,
> Kim "rude" Svendsen ;-)



		
__________________________________
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.14 kroner! good one...

ADVICE for advice givers:::

if someone seems to not take your advice, WALK AWAY. if you get 
annoyed that they are not taking your advice, it reeks of co-
dependence. 

also, let them find out that they are wrong (if they are in fact 
wrong) on their own time, because experience proves folks wrong more 
often than words and discussions do.

and stop calling each other stupid. are we all adults on this board, 
or are we just having a bad day?

PEACE,
scuto.

Ill be happy to mail you a track, tyco :-)


Kim


--- In elektron-users@yahoogroups.com, Tykorandia <tykorandia@y...> wrote:

> There is a lot of talk about how the MnM and MD won't
> work because of the style/technique you play. I would
> love to hear some samples of it, if possible. 
> 
> Thanks!
> tyko 
> 
> --- ze2be <kimotei@g...> wrote:
> 
> > But let me first clear out that the way I personaly
> > play synths, is what decides whats good 
> > and bad for me, not how others play. Because the
> > style im playing, im twisting all 
> > parameters all the time. I can play for hours on
> > other synths, but on the MM my fingers get 
> > tired after minutes. Now if people have a problem
> > with the style im playing, that is another 
> > discussion that I would be more then happy to join
> > in another thread. But in this thread my 
> > question was simpe: How does it work to conect an
> > external controller?
> > 
> > Thanks for all help in this matter!
> > 
> > 
> > Kind Regards,
> > Kim "rude" Svendsen ;-)
> 
> 
> 
> 		
> __________________________________
> Do you Yahoo!?
> Yahoo! Mail Address AutoComplete - You start. We finish.
> http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail

--- In elektron-users@yahoogroups.com, "scutopus" <scutopus@y...> wrote:
> 
> .14 kroner! good one...
> 
> ADVICE for advice givers:::
> 
> if someone seems to not take your advice, WALK AWAY. if you get 
> annoyed that they are not taking your advice, it reeks of co-
> dependence. 
> 
> also, let them find out that they are wrong (if they are in fact 
> wrong) on their own time, because experience proves folks wrong more 
> often than words and discussions do.
> 
> and stop calling each other stupid. are we all adults on this board, 
> or are we just having a bad day?
> 
> PEACE,
> scuto.

Well, I had a bad day, again sorry!! I dont need to discuss this any further. A fight usualy 
starts by missunderstanding. In a discusion my goal is to find out whats right, not whos 
right. I dont usualy attack this hard, if I dint have a realy realy bad day.

> Andreas, hvor i norge er du fra? :-)

Hvor er du fra da Kim? :-)

Mvh
Nils

--- In elektron-users@yahoogroups.com, "Nils Odegaard" <nilsodegaard@h...> wrote:
> 
> 
> > Andreas, hvor i norge er du fra? :-)
> 
> Hvor er du fra da Kim? :-)
> 
> Mvh
> Nils

Oslo, men nå bor jeg for øyeblikket i Asker!