Emax

Hi everyone,

New member here. Nice to see the Emax community still thrives.

I just acquired an Emax SE Rack, and I think the floppy drive 
might be crapped out. I just wanted to tell everyone what's 
happening, and see if there might be something I haven't 
thought of. Here are some of the things that happen:

1. when I load the boot disk that came with the unit, I will 
sometimes (not always), get a message saying "Please Insert 
Disk" even though the disk is in the drive. 

2. Sometimes the abovementioned disk will begin to load, and 
then when it gets to loading the bank on the disk i get a "Disk 
Error!" message. Once I was actually able to navigate a little bit 
through the OS, but most functions needed to be loaded off the 
disk, so I got disk errors afterward.

3. When I attempt to load disks that I have from when I used to 
own an Emax SE keyboard, the rack will give me a message 
saying "Disk Not Formatted!" even though I know the disks were 
formatted using OS 1.1.

4. Most other times I stick a disk in and I just get a "Disk Error" 
message.

What I don't understand is if the floppy drive is busted, why do I 
get different messages? 

Anyway, just thought I'd throw that out there and see if someone 
recognizes the symptoms of a floppy drive gone bad.

thanks,
gordon hurd

From: <ghurd@...>

> Anyway, just thought I'd throw that out there and see if someone
> recognizes the symptoms of a floppy drive gone bad.
>
Disk drive head out of alignment.
it might possibly be able to read/write its own disks, but would have no
hope on another drives disks.

you can get a new drive from emulatorarchive.com



julian


This ink is white.
This room is filled of bugs.
This girl have a beauty edge.
It is a noise which to cleave the head.
- English as She is Spoke

> thanks,
> gordon hurd
>
>
>
> Emax and Emax II User's Group
>
> http://www.silveriafamily.com
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>


_________________________________________________________
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Get your free @... address at http://mail.yahoo.com

I had a similar problem a few years ago with my EMAXII and I just used a
floppy disk cleaner on it and it has been fine since.  You should be able to
buy a cleaner for a few dollars.  It might save you the price of a new
drive.
----- Original Message -----

From: <ghurd@...>
To: <emax@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Monday, November 12, 2001 3:17 PM
Subject: [emax] bad disk drive?


> Hi everyone,
>
> New member here. Nice to see the Emax community still thrives.
>
> I just acquired an Emax SE Rack, and I think the floppy drive
> might be crapped out. I just wanted to tell everyone what's
> happening, and see if there might be something I haven't
> thought of. Here are some of the things that happen:
>
> 1. when I load the boot disk that came with the unit, I will
> sometimes (not always), get a message saying "Please Insert
> Disk" even though the disk is in the drive.
>
> 2. Sometimes the abovementioned disk will begin to load, and
> then when it gets to loading the bank on the disk i get a "Disk
> Error!" message. Once I was actually able to navigate a little bit
> through the OS, but most functions needed to be loaded off the
> disk, so I got disk errors afterward.
>
> 3. When I attempt to load disks that I have from when I used to
> own an Emax SE keyboard, the rack will give me a message
> saying "Disk Not Formatted!" even though I know the disks were
> formatted using OS 1.1.
>
> 4. Most other times I stick a disk in and I just get a "Disk Error"
> message.
>
> What I don't understand is if the floppy drive is busted, why do I
> get different messages?
>
> Anyway, just thought I'd throw that out there and see if someone
> recognizes the symptoms of a floppy drive gone bad.
>
> thanks,
> gordon hurd
>
>
>
> Emax and Emax II User's Group
>
> http://www.silveriafamily.com
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>

--- Honest Steve <honest23@...> wrote: 

> I had a similar problem a few years ago with my
> EMAXII and I just used a
> floppy disk cleaner on it and it has been fine
> since.  You should be able to
> buy a cleaner for a few dollars.  It might save you
> the price of a new
> drive.

hmm... I guess it is possibly a dirty drive too....
but the "disk not formatted" message sounds more like
misalligned heads to me. Yeah, try cleaning it first,
because the new drives are pretty expensive.



julian



=====
--////////////
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////////////--

http://briefcase.yahoo.com.au - Yahoo! Briefcase
- Manage your files online.

In a message dated 11/12/01 1:56:00 PM Pacific Standard Time, 
ghurd@... writes:

<< Hi everyone,
 
 New member here. Nice to see the Emax community still thrives.
 
 I just acquired an Emax SE Rack, and I think the floppy drive 
 might be crapped out. I just wanted to tell everyone what's 
 happening, and see if there might be something I haven't 
 thought of. Here are some of the things that happen:
 
 1. when I load the boot disk that came with the unit, I will 
 sometimes (not always), get a message saying "Please Insert 
 Disk" even though the disk is in the drive. 
 
 2. Sometimes the abovementioned disk will begin to load, and 
 then when it gets to loading the bank on the disk i get a "Disk 
 Error!" message. Once I was actually able to navigate a little bit 
 through the OS, but most functions needed to be loaded off the 
 disk, so I got disk errors afterward.
 
 3. When I attempt to load disks that I have from when I used to 
 own an Emax SE keyboard, the rack will give me a message 
 saying "Disk Not Formatted!" even though I know the disks were 
 formatted using OS 1.1.
 
 4. Most other times I stick a disk in and I just get a "Disk Error" 
 message.
 
 What I don't understand is if the floppy drive is busted, why do I 
 get different messages? 
 
 Anyway, just thought I'd throw that out there and see if someone 
 recognizes the symptoms of a floppy drive gone bad.
 
 thanks,
 gordon hurd
  >>
If you need that drive and your in the USA we have them at 
www.Route66studios.com
Rich

The disk drives from emulatorarchive.com are quite expensive.  You need a
Shugart-compatible drive, which is different from a normal PC drive.
There's details somewhere around for making up a cable to convert between
the types (the pins are slightly different).  Try http://www.buchty.net for
the info, IIRC it's in the Casio FZ-1 section.
A drive from a Mirage or SQ80 or similar ought to work.  You could try an
early Atari ST drive, it might work.  You might have more luck with an Amiga
drive, I seem to recall that they were Shugart.  I've heard it mentioned
that Emaxes used Apple drives - they don't.
HTH
  Gordon.

----- Original Message -----
From: "julian" <jujulilianan@...>
To: <emax@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Monday, November 12, 2001 10:33 PM
Subject: Re: [emax] bad disk drive?


>
> From: <ghurd@...>
>
> > Anyway, just thought I'd throw that out there and see if someone
> > recognizes the symptoms of a floppy drive gone bad.
> >
> Disk drive head out of alignment.
> it might possibly be able to read/write its own disks, but would have no
> hope on another drives disks.
>
> you can get a new drive from emulatorarchive.com
>
>
>
> julian
>
>
> This ink is white.
> This room is filled of bugs.
> This girl have a beauty edge.
> It is a noise which to cleave the head.
> - English as She is Spoke
>
> > thanks,
> > gordon hurd
> >
> >
> >
> > Emax and Emax II User's Group
> >
> > http://www.silveriafamily.com
> >
> > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

> >
>
>
>
> _________________________________________________________
>
> Do You Yahoo!?
>
> Get your free @... address at http://mail.yahoo.com
>
>
>
>
> Emax and Emax II User's Group
>
> http://www.silveriafamily.com
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>

Hi,
As already suggested try cleaning the heads first, this can keep an old
drive going for some time ! A major floppy drive failure will cause the Emax
to freeze during boot up.

A variety of older DS/DD drives which can be set to a disk ID of zero will
work on the Emax - this is the critical difference that all E-mu samplers
have. We have tried old Sony drives but found new drives are more reliable.
Floppy drives were made with jumpers for selecting ID, but with the
widespread adoption of the IBM floppy identification standard - jumperless
drives are now the norm. We sell brand new replacement TEAC drives which
come with the correct 41mm high bezel and are in black, thats why they cost
a little more than usual. They are an EXACT electrical and cosmetic
replacment that will last for 10 years.

You can get the floppy drive, which is a TEAC 235HF-A529, from a variety of
online stores but they usually only sell in bulk as this is an industrial
model that has lower production volumes. The bezels are somewhat harder to
locate, we sell these on their own for owners who have the TEAC drive
already. We have the jumper settings for anyone who is interested.

Regards

Rob

The Emulator Archive
www.emulatorarchive.com

  > > Anyway, just thought I'd throw that out there and see if someone
  > > recognizes the symptoms of a floppy drive gone bad.
  > >
  > Disk drive head out of alignment.
  > it might possibly be able to read/write its own disks, but would have no
  > hope on another drives disks.
  >
  > you can get a new drive from emulatorarchive.com
  >
  >
  >
  > julian



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

>The disk drives from emulatorarchive.com are quite expensive.  You need a
>Shugart-compatible drive, which is different from a normal PC drive.
>There's details somewhere around for making up a cable to convert between
>the types (the pins are slightly different).  Try http://www.buchty.net for
>the info, IIRC it's in the Casio FZ-1 section.
>A drive from a Mirage or SQ80 or similar ought to work.  You could try an
>early Atari ST drive, it might work.  You might have more luck with an Amiga
>drive, I seem to recall that they were Shugart.  I've heard it mentioned
>that Emaxes used Apple drives - they don't.
>HTH
>  Gordon.




is this true, how do i identify which drive is "shugart" drive?

i just tested epson smd-300 1.44k drive taken fron ast 386SX pc ('90)
only changed the drive id from 1 to 0.
it booteds fine, loaded banks and played ok. i kept it on for about 1 hour.
didn't notice anything exceptional (i.e. smoke.)  I dont have
data/schematics for emax original drive  so i don't know if there are some
differencies in pin order .

also once i tried a drive taken from external amiga  fdd case(citizen
720kb),  changed id, but it didn't work, maybe some other jumpers were not
set correctly.

If anyone else have tested any othe drive, please come out and share your
experience!
I  think it's important to find out which drives are compatible because
those original drives are starting to fail, sooner than later!
also it would be nice to find a replacement powersupply too.





Jyrki

This is somewhat off the subject, but related.
I have always heard and read that formatting a Hig
Density Floppy as single or double sided is not
advised.
Aside from my Emax II, I own several Atari computers
that use single and double sided floppy disks.
I have formatted HD floppy disks as single or
doublesided on a Windows computer in a pinch.
The trick is you need to tape over the hole which
tells the computer it's a high density disk.
As for formatting Emax disks with that DOS based
program goes, I'm not sure you need to tape over the
hole, as it's my understanding that it's the OS, not
the hardware which prevents formating HD floppies as
Low or DD.
Although I'd recommend using DD disks if you can, I
just wanted to point out that I have HD floppies that
I formatted as DD on a PC for use with my Atari
computers that are still good 10 years later. 
The magnetic coating on HD floppies takes more energy
to record on. I've been told that when you format as a
DD, that not enough energy is used, and the disks are
unstable. But, I have as of yet to encounter a
problem. Yet I would not rely on HD disks as a backup,
just as a quick temporary solution when you run out of
DD disks during a session.
Reminder- Always backup your disks, make a set and
store ut a friends house (just incase...).

Bob
--- Gordon JC Pearce <gordonjcp@...> wrote:
> The disk drives from emulatorarchive.com are quite
> expensive.  You need a
> Shugart-compatible drive, which is different from a
> normal PC drive.
> There's details somewhere around for making up a
> cable to convert between
> the types (the pins are slightly different).  Try
> http://www.buchty.net for
> the info, IIRC it's in the Casio FZ-1 section.
> A drive from a Mirage or SQ80 or similar ought to
> work.  You could try an
> early Atari ST drive, it might work.  You might have
> more luck with an Amiga
> drive, I seem to recall that they were Shugart. 
> I've heard it mentioned
> that Emaxes used Apple drives - they don't.
> HTH
>   Gordon.
> 
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "julian" <jujulilianan@...>
> To: <emax@yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Monday, November 12, 2001 10:33 PM
> Subject: Re: [emax] bad disk drive?
> 
> 
> >
> > From: <ghurd@...>
> >
> > > Anyway, just thought I'd throw that out there
> and see if someone
> > > recognizes the symptoms of a floppy drive gone
> bad.
> > >
> > Disk drive head out of alignment.
> > it might possibly be able to read/write its own
> disks, but would have no
> > hope on another drives disks.
> >
> > you can get a new drive from emulatorarchive.com
> >
> >
> >
> > julian
> >
> >
> > This ink is white.
> > This room is filled of bugs.
> > This girl have a beauty edge.
> > It is a noise which to cleave the head.
> > - English as She is Spoke
> >
> > > thanks,
> > > gordon hurd
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Emax and Emax II User's Group
> > >
> > > http://www.silveriafamily.com
> > >
> > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
_________________________________________________________
> >
> > Do You Yahoo!?
> >
> > Get your free @... address at
> http://mail.yahoo.com
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Emax and Emax II User's Group
> >
> > http://www.silveriafamily.com
> >
> > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> >
> >
> 
> 
> 
> ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
> 
> Emax and Emax II User's Group
> 
> http://www.silveriafamily.com 
> 
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ 
> 
> 
> 
> 


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FYI, ATY Computers in Oakland can modify PC HD floppy
drives to work as an Atari DD or Sinngle sided drive.
I forget what the modification was, but it involeved
soldering something (RPM speed?, ID?).
I can find out what the modification is, incase
someone wants to try it for their Emax.

Bob
--- Gordon JC Pearce <gordonjcp@...> wrote:
> The disk drives from emulatorarchive.com are quite
> expensive.  You need a
> Shugart-compatible drive, which is different from a
> normal PC drive.
> There's details somewhere around for making up a
> cable to convert between
> the types (the pins are slightly different).  Try
> http://www.buchty.net for
> the info, IIRC it's in the Casio FZ-1 section.
> A drive from a Mirage or SQ80 or similar ought to
> work.  You could try an
> early Atari ST drive, it might work.  You might have
> more luck with an Amiga
> drive, I seem to recall that they were Shugart. 
> I've heard it mentioned
> that Emaxes used Apple drives - they don't.
> HTH
>   Gordon.
> 
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "julian" <jujulilianan@...>
> To: <emax@yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Monday, November 12, 2001 10:33 PM
> Subject: Re: [emax] bad disk drive?
> 
> 
> >
> > From: <ghurd@...>
> >
> > > Anyway, just thought I'd throw that out there
> and see if someone
> > > recognizes the symptoms of a floppy drive gone
> bad.
> > >
> > Disk drive head out of alignment.
> > it might possibly be able to read/write its own
> disks, but would have no
> > hope on another drives disks.
> >
> > you can get a new drive from emulatorarchive.com
> >
> >
> >
> > julian
> >
> >
> > This ink is white.
> > This room is filled of bugs.
> > This girl have a beauty edge.
> > It is a noise which to cleave the head.
> > - English as She is Spoke
> >
> > > thanks,
> > > gordon hurd
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Emax and Emax II User's Group
> > >
> > > http://www.silveriafamily.com
> > >
> > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
_________________________________________________________
> >
> > Do You Yahoo!?
> >
> > Get your free @... address at
> http://mail.yahoo.com
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Emax and Emax II User's Group
> >
> > http://www.silveriafamily.com
> >
> > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> >
> >
> 
> 
> 


__________________________________________________
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HD diskettes among other things have different magnetic properties so although the 
Emax will reformat them not knowing any better the disks themselves are corrupted by 
the process and their magnetic surface will give out much quicker. So it's not a matter of 
can't, it's a matter of creating an unstable media that is guaranteed to go out quicker.

FYI...Shugart, is the last name of the guy who
invented the Floppy Drive, and subsequently the Hard
Drive. All Floppy drives are technically "Shugart"
drives. Apple drives work a little differently, I'm
not sure if they are diferent enough to be considered
non-Shugart or not.
In anycase, sounds like newer drives might need
modification to work in an Emax. As I mentioned in a
previous message, new floppy drives can be modified to
work in an Atari ST, so I suppose it's possible to
modify one for an Emax.

Bob

--- jh <jyrkih@...> wrote:
> >The disk drives from emulatorarchive.com are quite
> expensive.  You need a
> >Shugart-compatible drive, which is different from a
> normal PC drive.
> >There's details somewhere around for making up a
> cable to convert between
> >the types (the pins are slightly different).  Try
> http://www.buchty.net for
> >the info, IIRC it's in the Casio FZ-1 section.
> >A drive from a Mirage or SQ80 or similar ought to
> work.  You could try an
> >early Atari ST drive, it might work.  You might
> have more luck with an Amiga
> >drive, I seem to recall that they were Shugart. 
> I've heard it mentioned
> >that Emaxes used Apple drives - they don't.
> >HTH
> >  Gordon.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> is this true, how do i identify which drive is
> "shugart" drive?
> 
> i just tested epson smd-300 1.44k drive taken fron
> ast 386SX pc ('90)
> only changed the drive id from 1 to 0.
> it booteds fine, loaded banks and played ok. i kept
> it on for about 1 hour.
> didn't notice anything exceptional (i.e. smoke.)  I
> dont have
> data/schematics for emax original drive  so i don't
> know if there are some
> differencies in pin order .
> 
> also once i tried a drive taken from external amiga 
> fdd case(citizen
> 720kb),  changed id, but it didn't work, maybe some
> other jumpers were not
> set correctly.
> 
> If anyone else have tested any othe drive, please
> come out and share your
> experience!
> I  think it's important to find out which drives are
> compatible because
> those original drives are starting to fail, sooner
> than later!
> also it would be nice to find a replacement
> powersupply too.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Jyrki
> 
> 
> 
> ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
> 
> Emax and Emax II User's Group
> 
> http://www.silveriafamily.com 
> 
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ 
> 
> 
> 
> 


__________________________________________________
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Find the one for you at Yahoo! Personals
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just want to thank everyone for their speedy responses and 
helpful advice. I will attempt to clean the drive heads and if that 
fails, i will purchase a new drive.

are they easy to install or am i going to need to contact a repair 
shop (i hope not).

thanks again!
-g

> FYI...Shugart, is the last name of the guy who
> invented the Floppy Drive, and subsequently the Hard
> Drive. All Floppy drives are technically "Shugart"
> drives.

Hmm, kinda...  "Real" Shugart drives, as used in old Ensoniq kit (I'm
guessing Emu too)
have slight differences in the pins from "AT" floppy drives, as used in
PC's.  Generally 720k (DD)
PC drives have the Shugart nature.
The differences are slight.  The step/direction/write/read etc.  pins are
just the same.
It's more to do with the motor enable/drive select pins.  Disk change/disk
ready are also slightly different.
However, most older machines can be tricked into ignoring this, or at worst
behaving in a slightly odd way when asked to read a drive with no disk in
(decides drive is ready, falls over reading disk).
If you're lucky, the Shugart bus you're connecting to might expect a drive
on DS1.  DS1/Motor on corresponds to DSB/Motor B on a PC/AT drive.

> Apple drives work a little differently, I'm
> not sure if they are diferent enough to be considered
> non-Shugart or not.

They're very very different.  Not just the motor eject, they run at variable
speeds.  They're not true constant linear velocity, but they do speed up and
slow down when reading 720k disks.  They don't do it for 1.44M disks though.
Furthermore, Mac disk interfaces use a special custom magic Apple chip (IWM)
which uses a different disk format - GCR instead of MFM.  Finally, the plug
is different, just to put the tin hat on things.

> In anycase, sounds like newer drives might need
> modification to work in an Emax. As I mentioned in a
> previous message, new floppy drives can be modified to
> work in an Atari ST, so I suppose it's possible to
> modify one for an Emax.

HTH,
  Gordon.