EXS 24 Logic Sampler Users Group

I go on with the previous thread as it seems some of you folk are 
intersting in ;-)

     Well just as a short introduction, if I do use computers for music 
now for more than 10 years, I'm a piper first and play mainly 
traditional music ; that explains that pipes are "my cup of tea" ;-)
Something else is that my technical knowledge is nothing else than 
fragmentary (made of what I could pick up here and there along my 
expericences and problems ;-)) as I don't work and play in a 
technological environment.

     Some short general things : there're quite a lot of pipes that can 
be completely different one from the other (sound, organology, blowing, 
tuning, playing, scale). The pipes that everybody knows (which are 
these related in this thread) are the great scottish Highland bagpipes, 
but, even in Scotland, there are other ones, called "chamber pipes" or  
"small pipes" which are quite less powerful and can have quite 
different sound. Now another kind of pipes are a bit more commonly 
known, because of the "celtic fashion", which are the irish uillean 
pipes, and that have nothing to do with the great pipes (they have even 
a keyboard on it to play accompaniement notes and chords - with the 
wrist or one hand fingers).
Bagpipes had been common - shematically - in all Europe (from the Oural 
mountains to the Mediterranean sea), North Africa and Middle East up to 
India.
But although there are big differences between all of these 
instruments, all the pipes have jointly two things : a bag, allowing 
continuous sound (on the drones first, but also on the chanter) and 
drones, for a steady accompaniement of the melody.

     Well I'll not develop on pipes technicals problems, but just talk 
of some of them what can help to understand the instrument and its 
playing :
First two problems that make phrasing difficult on the instrument
- there's no dynamic modulation : velocity is 0 or 127, nothing between 
… (but same problem with the harpsicord for example) ;
- sound don't stop - so it's legato sound (except with a few kind of 
pipes like uilleann pipes, some small pipes and bulgarian pipes that 
can stop the chanter) ;
So these technical limitations explain the big use of ornementations 
(grace notes) to suggest staccato notes or dynamic modulation, the 
scottish pipes have certainly the more tricky ones (we can have 5 grace 
notes, or even more, to attack just one melody note). And unlike in 
classical music, these grace notes are not melodic ornaments but are 
sound effects for rythmic and dynamic purpose (make "stronger" notes to 
suggest dynamic stress), and are most of time very short (some 1/100 of 
second).
- depending of the pipes, never more than two diatonic octaves with a 
modal scale and eventually some accidents (Bb mixolydian for the 
scottish great pipes from Ab to Bb one octave higher) and never equal 
temperament (because of drones) ;
- there's always harmonic "alchemy" (acoustically speaking) between the 
drones and the chanter's which interact, and something as a "sound 
bubble". Something else is that the sound (harmonics) change with 
pressure variations.
This last point still makes the pipes not easy to record and can result 
in a "schizophrenic sound" ; never had a good recording of any pipes if 
drones and chanter are recorded separately ( and even difficult to play 
as the piper plays "on the drones" (or better "in" the drones) as 
tuning reference) … But for the sampling recording purpose it's always 
possible to stop the drones or the chanter and record the other  (with 
corks ;-) - and even some pipes can also play drones and chanter 
individually, like the uilleann pipes, but the problem can be to be "in 
tune" (what can be done is to record first the drones and then record 
the chanter's scale with the drones in the headphones) ; but the 
harmonic interaction between drones and chanter will be broken … well 
it's a big limitation in the pipes sampling credibility.

     So Gramophone's and Sacha's suggests are possible but with a dodgy 
problem with the loop points of the drones :  I've made a lot of 
editing on acoustic instrument, but the really most difficult job is to 
do it with pipes because of the drones whose sound is always changing  
- lightly but quite enough to give problems (especially with the great 
Highland pipes whose drones are very "present" - in front). In such 
case I've added some synth's sound (as suggested also) to attenuate the 
break.
With the split keyboard, this drones problem can be reduced with a long 
drones' sample.
I have to test second's Sacha's suggestion to trigger the drones with 
chanter's notes which is attractive but the problem of the looping 
points of the drone will be more acute here because with this way of 
doing the drone will be retriggered at each new melody's note (and 
grace note).
Also another way of doing would be to record each note of the chanter 
with the drones (not a big job : as the scale is never bigger than two 
octaves). But the problem of the drones will still be there (and I feel 
it even more problematic that way). Something else to test.

     As a conclusion, the number of parameters in action in pipes' 
playing give a real challenge for real convincing sampled pipe music, 
although technically possible - IMO it would need a dedicated 
instrument (but it's anyway the case for a lot of acoustic instruments 
isn't it ?   ;-)
I 've had the project of making some sampling experience with my 
different pipes (I play 7 different ones) and I can think of having it 
sooner under construction and let know the list when it'll be done, if 
some of you that are interested in (but don't be too much in hurry, I 
have still a job's waiting list   :-D

--
Gérald

G\ufffdrald RYCKEBOER wrote:

> [Some good insight into bagpipes and recreating their sound with a sampler]


Thanks G\ufffdrald - that's exactly what some of us need for instruments that 
we've never played (and are never likely to play!)

If you have the time could you please tell us more about the 
ornamentation? Like, exactly what ornaments are typically used? Do 
particular ornaments have particular functions? How would you make them 
sound as authentic as possible with a sample (apart from using a sample 
of the whole ornament, that is)?


Cheers,   Bill