EXS 24 Logic Sampler Users Group

Is it legal to download a demo of a VSTi, sample the sounds, then 
use the samples in EXS24 without buying the original product?

I'm thinking no, but not sure.

Thanks,

Best regards,
Henrik Buus Jensen

Henrik Buus Jensen wrote:
> 
> Is it legal to download a demo of a VSTi, sample the sounds, then 
> use the samples in EXS24 without buying the original product?
> 
> I'm thinking no, but not sure.
> 

I would imagine no, but I bet you'd find lawyers happy to take on the 
fight - but not on a no win no fee basis!

For example, look at the Linplug download page:

"The Demos are fully functional. The only restriction that applies to 
demo versions is that they emit a noise about once every minute."

A lawyer would argue that the words "only restriction" pertaining just 
to the burst of noise gives you carte blanche to do what you want. The 
legal stuff at the bottom of the page doesn't say anything specific 
about permission.

However if you ask them they will say you can't do what you are 
suggesting. If you do it you have to decide if you can afford to argue 
that you can if it comes to court (which is very unlikely - they won't 
know unless you get a big hit and then I think you will be happy to pay 
for the full version)

It's an interesting question. It's strange that most supermarkets here 
in England now trust people to scan their own food. Most garages trust 
you to fill up before paying. The percentage of honest people is 
surprisingly large where physical theft is concerned, but not, I think, 
where intellectual property is concerned.

-- 
Pete Thomas
www.petethomas.co.uk
- Free Logic Icons, Environments and EXS Instruments

--- In exs-users@yahoogroups.com, Pete Thomas <logic@p...> wrote:
> The percentage of honest people is 
> surprisingly large where physical theft is concerned, but not, I 
think, 
> where intellectual property is concerned.

 
Very well put, Pete. This comment should be set in stone. 

kind regards

Mark Cahill

On 25.01.2005, at 12:04, Henrik Buus Jensen wrote:

> Is it legal to download a demo of a VSTi, sample the sounds, then
> use the samples in EXS24 without buying the original product?
>
> I'm thinking no, but not sure.


Yet I know only the Austrian situation, but I think it is very similar 
in other countries:

If the owner says you are allowed to use the samples for whatever you 
want, clearly, or accidently by an awkward phrase in his license, they 
are free. If not, not. If there is no license of any sort, the samples 
are not free. Just like with your car: you don't need a sticker "This 
car must not be stolen!" (it gets stolen anyway, like the samples... 
:-)

We differentiate between the "right on the original" and the "right of 
use". If you compose music, these state cannnot be changed - you are 
the composer forever. So the "right on the original" cannot be sold or 
transferred. But you can transfer the usage rights (which we understand 
as "copyright" in Austria). You say what others are allowed to do with 
your creation and they are bound to that.


Peter Ostry

--- In exs-users@yahoogroups.com, Pete Thomas <logic@p...> wrote:
> For example, look at the Linplug download page:
> 
> "The Demos are fully functional. The only restriction that applies 
to 
> demo versions is that they emit a noise about once every minute."
> 
This is in fact exactly what I was looking at - LinPlug Albino etc. 

Oh well, instead of spending time putting various licenses under a 
microscope to find possible loopholes, I guess it's easier to just 
follow my conscience - and it says 'no' pretty clearly!

After all there are tons of free samples out there also.

Thanks though,

Best regards,
Henrik Buus Jensen
P4 2.4, Logic Gold 5.5.1 / EXS24 (a powerful and stable setup btw)

From: "Henrik Buus Jensen" <henrik@...>

>Is it legal to download a demo of a VSTi, sample the sounds, then
>use the samples in EXS24 without buying the original product?

I sure hope it's not!
-- 

Nick Batzdorf
818/905-9101, cell 590-9101, fax 905-5434

> Is it legal to download a demo of a VSTi, sample the sounds, then
> use the samples in EXS24 without buying the original product?
> 
> I'm thinking no, but not sure.
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> Best regards,
> Henrik Buus Jensen


Uh....no....not legal - stealing, just like downloading music and not paying
for it.

James

James Ryan wrote:
>>Is it legal to download a demo of a VSTi, sample the sounds, then
>>use the samples in EXS24 without buying the original product?
>>
>>I'm thinking no, but not sure.
>>
>>Thanks,
>>
>>Best regards,
>>Henrik Buus Jensen
> 
> 
> 
> Uh....no....not legal - stealing, just like downloading music and not paying
> for it.
> 
> James

But what do you think about the statement on the Linplug site?

"The only restriction that applies to
demo versions is that they emit a noise about once every minute."

Doesn't this imply that these don't come under the licence of the actual 
instruments and that they are actually giving you permission to do what 
you want?

-- 
Pete Thomas
www.petethomas.co.uk
- Free Logic Icons, Environments and EXS Instruments

On 26.01.2005, at 22:05, Pete Thomas wrote:

> But what do you think about the statement on the Linplug site?
>
> "The only restriction that applies to
> demo versions is that they emit a noise about once every minute."
>
> Doesn't this imply that these don't come under the licence of the 
> actual
> instruments and that they are actually giving you permission to do what
> you want?


The full text is:
"The Demos are fully functional. The only restriction that applies to 
demo versions is that they emit a noise about once every minute."

Pretty clear that they talk about functionality. A lawyer might try to 
go around that but I believe the judge would decide for the benefit of 
the company. But an adjudication depends sometimes on the knowledge of 
the customer: is it supposable that he did understand the message? If 
you, Pete, are the customer, the judge might say "we know that you 
know...". With a newbie it could be different.

Of course, on the website you mentioned they should better say 
"technical restriction".


Peter Ostry

> >>Is it legal to download a demo of a VSTi, sample the sounds, then
> >>use the samples in EXS24 without buying the original product?
> >>I'm thinking no, but not sure.
> > 
> > Uh....no....not legal - stealing, just like downloading music and
> > not paying for it.
> > James
> 
> But what do you think about the statement on the Linplug site?
> "The only restriction that applies to
> demo versions is that they emit a noise about once every minute."
> Doesn't this imply that these don't come under the licence of the
> actual instruments and that they are actually giving you permission 
> to do what you want?
 

Sir, might I enquire as to why you didn't _ask_ Linnplug for their
express permision to use their sounds outwith the context of a 
Linnplug product? Isn't the onus to verify such use put upon _you_, 
as the one who wants to make such use? Are you not aware that to _not_ 
take such steps to ensure the legality of use/abuse of content that
you leave yourself open to the possibility of criminal activity?

<snipped by admin>

Ian William Shaftem

<snipped by admin>

> James Ryan wrote:

No I didn't.
>>> Is it legal to download a demo of a VSTi, sample the sounds, then
>>> use the samples in EXS24 without buying the original product?
>>> 
>>> I'm thinking no, but not sure.
>>> 
>>> Thanks,
>>> 
>>> Best regards,
>>> Henrik Buus Jensen
>> 
This is my quote:
>> Uh....no....not legal - stealing, just like downloading music and not paying
>> for it.
>> 
>> James
> 
> But what do you think about the statement on the Linplug site?
> 
> "The only restriction that applies to
> demo versions is that they emit a noise about once every minute."
> 
> Doesn't this imply that these don't come under the licence of the actual
> instruments and that they are actually giving you permission to do what
> you want?
> 
> -- 
> Pete Thomas
> www.petethomas.co.uk
> - Free Logic Icons, Environments and EXS Instruments

Hi Pete,
I didn't write the original post but I will answer your question.  The "only
restriction...." refers to your using the software - it's going to bleep you
every so often.  It's a performance of the instrument restriction.  You
won't want to use it on a project.

As for the sounds contained in the instrument, I would be amazed if they
didn't have some copyright restriction on them.  This was probably written
by a salesman and not the legal team.  Had the legal team written it, it
would have probably read more like:  You may use this software demo freely
to explore it's capabilities.  It may not be used in professional projects
and will emit a sound occasionally to prevent misuse.  This software and all
sounds contained are the property of Linplug.  They are copyrighted
worldwide and copying and using them in other software, or reselling them in
any way, shape or form is strictly forbidden.......

Or some such thing.  Yes, I live with a lawyer.

Cheers,
James

--- In exs-users@yahoogroups.com, "sleazyjoeblob" <azyte@b...> wrote:
> 
> Sir, might I enquire as to why you didn't _ask_ Linnplug for their
> express permision to use their sounds outwith the context of a 
> Linnplug product? Isn't the onus to verify such use put upon 
_you_, 
> as the one who wants to make such use? Are you not aware that to 
_not_ 
> take such steps to ensure the legality of use/abuse of content that
> you leave yourself open to the possibility of criminal activity?
> 
> <snipped by admin>
> 
> Ian William Shaftem
> 
> <snipped by admin>
>
Good question - it simply didn't occur to me!
I just mailed them and will post their response here.

Best regards,
Henrik Buus Jensen

***

Dear Linplug,

Would it be legal for me to download the demos of some of your
excellent products, sample the sounds and then use these samples in 
my songs - that is, without actually buying the products in question?

The reason I'm asking is because of this sentence on your homepage:

"The Demos are fully functional. The only restriction that applies to
demo versions is that they emit a noise about once every minute."

There is a thread on the Emagic EXS24 discussion group about whether
or not this means there is no legal restriction on the use of these
demo versions (see http://groups.yahoo.com/group/exs-users/)

I would like to stress that I fully intend to stay within the
boundaries of the law and have no intentions of taking advantage of
any of your products in a manner you didn't mean to allow - 
regardless of the exact wording of licenses etc. That said, if you 
give the green light, I will not hesitate to add some of these 
lovely sounds to my sample library.

I have posted this e-mail on the discussion group and will take the
liberty of posting your reply there also, if it's okay.

Thank you in advance,

Best regards,
Henrik Buus Jensen

In the process of installing the Albino 2 demo, I came across the 
license:

"The user is not allowed to distribute the program or the sounds or 
samples of the sounds. Further, the user may not modify, the user 
may not decompile and the user may not debug the software.

Sounds provided within the Albino by Rob Papen Sound Design & Music 
are also licensed to the user "as is" with the same terms and extra 
term added that the user may not copy or sample sounds for 
distribution use."

This doesn't really shed much light on the issue! Apparently it's 
illegal to sample sounds *for distribution use*, but what about 
sampling sounds in order of using them in your own songs?

It will be interesting to hear Linplug's comment.

Best regards,
Henrik Buus Jensen

Henrik Buus Jensen wrote:
> 
> --- In exs-users@yahoogroups.com, "sleazyjoeblob" <azyte@b...> wrote:
> 
>>Sir, might I enquire as to why you didn't _ask_ Linnplug for their
>>express permision to use their sounds outwith the context of a 
>>Linnplug product? Isn't the onus to verify such use put upon 
> 
> _you_, 
> 
>>as the one who wants to make such use? Are you not aware that to 
> 
> _not_ 
> 
>>take such steps to ensure the legality of use/abuse of content that
>>you leave yourself open to the possibility of criminal activity?
>>
>><snipped by admin>
>>
>>Ian William Shaftem
>>
>><snipped by admin>
>>
> Good question - it simply didn't occur to me!
> I just mailed them and will post their response here.
> 
> Best regards,
> Henrik Buus Jensen
> 
> ***
> 
> Dear Linplug,
> 
> Would it be legal for me to download the demos of some of your
> excellent products, sample the sounds and then use these samples in 
> my songs - that is, without actually buying the products in question?
> 
> The reason I'm asking is because of this sentence on your homepage:
> 
> "The Demos are fully functional. The only restriction that applies to
> demo versions is that they emit a noise about once every minute."
> 
> There is a thread on the Emagic EXS24 discussion group about whether
> or not this means there is no legal restriction on the use of these
> demo versions (see http://groups.yahoo.com/group/exs-users/)
> 
> I would like to stress that I fully intend to stay within the
> boundaries of the law and have no intentions of taking advantage of
> any of your products in a manner you didn't mean to allow - 
> regardless of the exact wording of licenses etc. That said, if you 
> give the green light, I will not hesitate to add some of these 
> lovely sounds to my sample library.
> 
> I have posted this e-mail on the discussion group and will take the
> liberty of posting your reply there also, if it's okay.
> 
> Thank you in advance,
> 
> Best regards,
> Henrik Buus Jensen

What's the betting that wording will change in the next few days?

-- 
Pete Thomas
www.petethomas.co.uk
- Free Logic Icons, Environments and EXS Instruments

Hi,

On 27-Jan-05, at 1:21 AM, Henrik Buus Jensen wrote:

>  In the process of installing the Albino 2 demo, I came across the
>  license:
>
>  "The user is not allowed to distribute the program or the sounds or
>  samples of the sounds. Further, the user may not modify, the user
>  may not decompile and the user may not debug the software.
>
>  Sounds provided within the Albino by Rob Papen Sound Design & Music
>  are also licensed to the user "as is" with the same terms and extra
>  term added that the user may not copy or sample sounds for
>  distribution use."
>
>  This doesn't really shed much light on the issue! Apparently it's
>  illegal to sample sounds *for distribution use*, but what about
>  sampling sounds in order of using them in your own songs?

I'm willing to bet that any form of sampling of the sounds for use in 
your song will not be allowed.  It's pretty obvious if you take some of 
Rob Papen's programmed sounds from Albino and sample them to use in one 
of your songs and you've only got them from a demo, it will not be 
allowed.  If you own Albino, sample them and use them in your own 
songs, I suspect that technically it is not allowed but they won't care 
(and wouldn't be able to prove that you sampled them instead of using 
the synth itself).

Bottom line is that I don't think that you'll get anywhere with them or 
any other VSTi developer.

Fernstudio


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

As promised, here's the reply from Linplug:

*****

Hi,

Personally speaking, I think you're ripping us off. The demos are 
designed for you to try out the instruments, not do finished 
productions with. Our prices are pretty low, and we're steadily 
upgrading and improving them. I'd say it's a thin line you're riding.

Company speaking, I'd have to check with Peter. Of course, there's 
really no way we can check you so you'd do as you wish. I commend 
you on at least asking....

Kind Regards,

Ken

*****

I think the bottom line still is that we're dealing with a gray area 
where it's really up to ones conscience if one thinks it's okay to 
download demos and sample stuff from it. If someone feels like it, 
I'm certainly not going to be the one passing judgment on their 
moral. Personally, I'll stick to downloading Soundfonts etc.

Interesting question, though, and thanks for the replies.

Best regards,
Henrik Buus Jensen

And for the record, my reply to Linplug:

*****

Hi Ken,

Thanks for your quick response, and please accept my apology if I 
have offended you or any of the others in your company by asking this
question. I know it's  tricky, that's why I'm asking.

With all the free samples and Soundfonts out there, I can assure you
that I am not going to be wasting any time sampling stuff off demos.
The software I'm running is the Logic Gold/EXS bundle bought a couple
of years ago - and registered - and the only samples I have used in
songs are free or taken from my Yamaha CS6x synth.

I actually regret starting the thread on the user group but still, it
was an interesting question and I would like to thank you again for
replying.

Best regards,
Henrik Buus Jensen

*****

On 27.01.2005, at 19:02, Henrik Buus Jensen wrote:

> I think the bottom line still is that we're dealing with a gray area

Speculations about possibilities to get something for free which is not 
intended to be free are interesting and some of us can learn about the 
complexity for her/his own work. But I think we should start seeing 
things differently: A world were anybody gets deprived of something 
because he has no bullet proof written license, is not a good world. 
But we want a good world, not?

Possibly I am soon in the situation to give some advice or at least 
support regarding copyright. I will tell everybody "Do not do that. You 
don't want it to be done to your own property and don't forget: you 
would not have any samples without those people."


Peter Ostry

Fernstudio wrote:
> If you own Albino, sample them and use them in your own
> songs, I suspect that technically it is not allowed but they won't care
> (and wouldn't be able to prove that you sampled them instead of using
> the synth itself).

This is a) perfectly legal (otherwise you wouldn't even be allowed to freeze
a track just because that's some sort of sampling too) and to extend it, b)
it'd even be legal to distribute those sounds.
The reason for b) being that Albino isn't sample based.
Whether these laws are stupid or not is out of question - but that's the
situation.

- Sascha