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is virtual system memory useable on a Macbook Pro?

is virtual system memory useable on a Macbook Pro?

2006-05-17 by Jeff Fisher

thinking of moving from a Powerbook G4 1.67 up to a Macintel Laptop  
to run a huge live kit in logic. The new books still have a
2Gig Ram limit...my present live template exceeds that and memory  
paging begins. On the G4 this means audio glitching as OSX
moves data to and from the system disk. I was wondering if the Intel  
boxes with their much faster buses can thus run memory-hogging
setups without interrupting the flow of audio (a dual G5 with only  
512 Megs of RAM was able to do this)...Not looking for  simultaneous  
playback of many tracks, just the ability to load way way beyond the  
RAM ceiling with VSL and plugs in a live situation..with no audio
stuttering
anybody care to test this out
THX Jeff

Re: is virtual system memory useable on a Macbook Pro?

2006-05-18 by Nick Batzdorf

From: "Jeff Fisher" jefisher@...
>

> thinking of moving from a Powerbook G4 1.67 up to a Macintel Laptop
> to run a huge live kit in logic. The new books still have a
> 2Gig Ram limit...my present live template exceeds that and memory
> paging begins. On the G4 this means audio glitching as OSX
> moves data to and from the system disk. I was wondering if the Intel
> boxes with their much faster buses can thus run memory-hogging
> setups without interrupting the flow of audio (a dual G5 with only
> 512 Megs of RAM was able to do this)...Not looking for  simultaneous
> playback of many tracks, just the ability to load way way beyond the
> RAM ceiling with VSL and plugs in a live situation..with no audio
> stuttering
> anybody care to test this out
> THX Jeff

Remember, hard disk access isn't any faster than it's been for the  
past few years.







Nick Batzdorf, editor/publisher
Virtual Instruments Magazine - the world of softsynths and samplers
www.Virtualinstrumentsmag.com
1-877 VImagzn (846-2496)
818/905-9101, cell 590-9101




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

is virtual system memory useable on a Macbook Pro?

2006-05-21 by Jeff Fisher

>
> Message 3
>     From: "Nick Batzdorf" recording@...
>     Date: Thu May 18, 2006 8:04am(PDT)
> Subject: Re: is virtual system memory useable on a Macbook Pro?
>
> From: "Jeff Fisher" jefisher@...
>>
>
>> thinking of moving from a Powerbook G4 1.67 up to a Macintel Laptop
>> to run a huge live kit in logic. The new books still have a
>> 2Gig Ram limit...my present live template exceeds that and memory
>> paging begins. On the G4 this means audio glitching as OSX
>> moves data to and from the system disk. I was wondering if the Intel
>> boxes with their much faster buses can thus run memory-hogging
>> setups without interrupting the flow of audio (a dual G5 with only
>> 512 Megs of RAM was able to do this)...Not looking for  simultaneous
>> playback of many tracks, just the ability to load way way beyond the
>> RAM ceiling with VSL and plugs in a live situation..with no audio
>> stuttering
>> anybody care to test this out
>> THX Jeff
>
> Remember, hard disk access isn't any faster than it's been for the
> past few years.

Hmm, don't the new Powerbooks all uses SATA drives (although methinks  
5400RPM)? perhaps if I boot off an external drive...
I guess I'll have to go to the store to run some tests...
thanx   Jeff


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Re: is virtual system memory useable on a Macbook Pro?

2006-05-22 by Nick Batzdorf

>> From: "Jeff Fisher" jefisher@...
>>>
>>
>>> thinking of moving from a Powerbook G4 1.67 up to a Macintel Laptop
>>> to run a huge live kit in logic. The new books still have a
>>> 2Gig Ram limit...my present live template exceeds that and memory
>>> paging begins. On the G4 this means audio glitching as OSX
>>> moves data to and from the system disk. I was wondering if the Intel
>>> boxes with their much faster buses can thus run memory-hogging
>>> setups without interrupting the flow of audio (a dual G5 with only
>>> 512 Megs of RAM was able to do this)...Not looking for  simultaneous
>>> playback of many tracks, just the ability to load way way beyond the
>>> RAM ceiling with VSL and plugs in a live situation..with no audio
>>> stuttering
>>> anybody care to test this out
>>> THX Jeff

I wrote:

>> Remember, hard disk access isn't any faster than it's been for the
>> past few years.
Show quoted textHide quoted text
From: "Jeff Fisher" jefisher@...

> Hmm, don't the new Powerbooks all uses SATA drives (although methinks
> 5400RPM)? perhaps if I boot off an external drive...
> I guess I'll have to go to the store to run some tests...
> thanx   Jeff

SATA is a faster *bus* than PATA, so it can handle more data. But you  
were never saturating the bus with PATA; the important issue for  
streaming samples is how quickly the drive itself can deliver the  
data. The best hard drives are WD Raptors, which are 10K RPM drives  
with a seek time 50-60% of a regular 7200 RPM ATA or SATA drive's  
spec. They do deliver a few more voices.

However, you're asking whether a hard drive is a substitute for RAM  
access, and it clearly isn't. If EXS forces OS X to start pretending  
the hard drive is a RAM buffer for loading sample starts, you're  
going to get crashes while the machine swaps that data into RAM.

Memory is thousands of times faster than any hard disk, and the only  
way to pay samples is from RAM. Streaming samplers store the bulk of  
the samples on the disk, but they still read from the RAM buffer.

I've avoided using the term "virtual memory," because EXS uses  
(misuses?) it to mean sample-streaming. People aren't usually talking  
about EXS when the general term - they're talking about the OS  
running out of RAM and using a temporary hard disk buffer that it  
swaps out.

Nick Batzdorf, editor/publisher
Virtual Instruments Magazine - the world of softsynths and samplers
www.Virtualinstrumentsmag.com
1-877 VImagzn (846-2496)
818/905-9101, cell 590-9101




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Re: is virtual system memory useable on a Macbook Pro?

2006-05-23 by Jeff Fisher

On 23-May-06, at 3:41 AM, exs-users@yahoogroups.com wrote:

> However, you're asking whether a hard drive is a substitute for RAM
> access, and it clearly isn't. If EXS forces OS X to start pretending
> the hard drive is a RAM buffer for loading sample starts, you're
> going to get crashes while the machine swaps that data into RAM.

understood. Just wondering why a dual G5 1.8 with only 512M Ram (it  
was a store loaner) was able to run tons of EXS with so little  
RAM...and no audio glitching. OSX was obviously in a low RAM  
situation....
anyways it sounds futile...just have to wait for higher RAM capacity  
in future macbooks...sigh...
thanx Nick
J




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Re: [EXS] is virtual system memory useable on a Macbook Pro?

2006-05-23 by Garth Hjelte

At 08:57 AM 5/23/2006, you wrote:

> > However, you're asking whether a hard drive is a substitute for RAM
> > access, and it clearly isn't. If EXS forces OS X to start pretending
> > the hard drive is a RAM buffer for loading sample starts, you're
> > going to get crashes while the machine swaps that data into RAM.

>understood. Just wondering why a dual G5 1.8 with only 512M Ram (it
>was a store loaner) was able to run tons of EXS with so little
>RAM...and no audio glitching. OSX was obviously in a low RAM
>situation...

Nick's overview was absolutely excellent, let me add a response...

It's all about efficiency.

The over-simplistic/basic concept of the EXS's playback (and 
basically all "streaming" samplers) is that the first part of the 
sound is loaded into memory, thus creating as small as possible 
memory footprint for the instrument. Since memory is instantly 
accessible, your initial sounds can be played. The program is 
continually checking if it needs to load stuff off disk if the 
playing "threatens" accessing sound data that isn't in memory yet. 
Also, the program may elect to dump things out that were loaded 
post-load that hadn't been accessed for awhile.

It's not that different than when RealPlayer first came out and you'd 
constantly look at that little "buffer meter" and you could see when 
RP would have to download more data off the Net, or even have to stop 
playback because it didn't have the data yet.

Think of a non-streaming sampler like Reason NN-XT and think of the 
memory that never gets used, or even the memory that isn't used in 
2-3 seconds of time and you see how inefficient that is.

The ultimate sampler would always have the sound data in RAM that's 
needed for playback AT THAT MOMENT and ONLY that data. How many mb's 
of data is actually being sounded at any particular time? Perhaps 
only 5mb per second, on average, I don't really know, but it can't be 
too huge. Certainly not even close to 32mb.

It's efficiency that is the crucial thing, not the sheer amount of 
memory. Lots of memory just covers high stress situations and 
less-then optimally efficient samplers. You can have a 5-lane 
freeway, but they get completely jammed when there's cars driving in 
parallel at 45mph.

So, regarding the 1.8 dual with 512mb, perhaps that it was playing 
was efficient - no piano sprawls with pedal, spread out sparse 
orchestrations, and of course the efficiency of EXS24 in general.

Garth Hjelte
Sampler User

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