EXS 24 Logic Sampler Users Group

I'm looking for some input from other EXS users regarding typical latency in
EXS24 and how you are dealing with it when tracking.

I am brand new to Logic and EXS, just received my Logic Gold/EXS edition
(4.8) and have it installed and running on Windows 2000. While I'm completly
knocked out by Logic's depth and ability, I'm also disapointed in the
drastic latency I'm getting in EXS. (Card Drivers and options are all
correct)

Now I realize that some is to be expected, for instance, when I run NI's B4
in stand-alone mode, latency is there but playable. I can at least record
the track and then adjust it's timming.

With the EXS, there's no way. I can hit and release a key and spin 1/8 way
around in my studio chair before it sounds.

So here's the question(s)

1. Is EXS playable for live recording? and if so, with what kind of
hardware?

2. If EXS is not playable, how the heck are you tracking with it?
Selecting a subsitute keyboard, performing the part and then swapping in EXS
prevents performace usage of all those cool zone layers etc.

I'm running an SB Live card which I realize is a big part of the problem,
however I don't want to spend the $$ on a better digital audio card (Mia,
Delta44) if the return is only marginal.

Many Thanks
Douglas Harris

Windows 2000 Pro
Gigabyte BXE / PIII 400mhz

This is not normal. You should contact Emagic 
and/or the retailer that sold it to you. I use EXS 
everyday and have near zero latency.

Ned

Douglas Harris wrote:

> I am brand new to Logic and EXS, just received my Logic Gold/EXS edition
> (4.8) and have it installed and running on Windows 2000. While I'm completly
> knocked out by Logic's depth and ability, I'm also disapointed in the
> drastic latency I'm getting in EXS. (Card Drivers and options are all
> correct)




http://www.nedfx.com

       Ned Bouhalassa

n e d @ n e d f x . c o m

Douglas Harris wrote:
> I'm running an SB Live card which I realize is a big part of the problem,
> however I don't want to spend the $$ on a better digital audio card (Mia,
> Delta44) if the return is only marginal.

There you go.
You will have to buy another audio card. Lowest latency you can get with the
SBLive should be around 250ms or something, that's defenitely unusable for
realtime play. All "real" audiocards these days come with ASIO drivers which
should give you latencies below 10ms - defenitely no marginal difference,
even some older hardwaresynths have that much of latency.
Go buy yourself one of the available small solutions (personal tip:
M-Audio's Delta Audiophile 2496, www.m-audio.com) and be happy immediately.
Depending on the amount of I/Os and features you need prices start around
150 US$, defenitely worth every penny. Apart from the great improvement
regarding latency you will experience that the SBLive simply sounds like a
piece of total crap, once you run your stuff through good converters (which
the Audiophile for example has).

Btw, the reason that you can run the B4 in standalone mode with reasonable
results has to do with the fact that it uses the DX drivers which are not
suitable for sequencers.

Regards,
Sascha

Don't give up on your sblive just yet. There are ASIO drivers available
at http://www.kxproject.com/ . I've been using them for several months
under windows XP: totally stable, a usable latency of 21ms and they
sound better than Creative's drivers. They're a little tricky to install
and there are a few issues so read carefully before you jump in.
Regards,
Dyav

-----Original Message-----
From: Sascha Franck [mailto:saschafranck@...] 
Sent: 23 March 2002 01:30
To: exs-users@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [exs] EXS not playable?

Douglas Harris wrote:
> I'm running an SB Live card which I realize is a big part of the
problem,
> however I don't want to spend the $$ on a better digital audio card
(Mia,
> Delta44) if the return is only marginal.

There you go.
You will have to buy another audio card. Lowest latency you can get with
the
SBLive should be around 250ms or something, that's defenitely unusable
for
realtime play. All "real" audiocards these days come with ASIO drivers
which
should give you latencies below 10ms - defenitely no marginal
difference,
even some older hardwaresynths have that much of latency.
Go buy yourself one of the available small solutions (personal tip:
M-Audio's Delta Audiophile 2496, www.m-audio.com) and be happy
immediately.
Depending on the amount of I/Os and features you need prices start
around
150 US$, defenitely worth every penny. Apart from the great improvement
regarding latency you will experience that the SBLive simply sounds like
a
piece of total crap, once you run your stuff through good converters
(which
the Audiophile for example has).

Btw, the reason that you can run the B4 in standalone mode with
reasonable
results has to do with the fact that it uses the DX drivers which are
not
suitable for sequencers.

Regards,
Sascha



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Dyayvyd wrote:
> Don't give up on your sblive just yet. There are ASIO drivers available
> at http://www.kxproject.com/ . I've been using them for several months
> under windows XP: totally stable, a usable latency of 21ms and they
> sound better than Creative's drivers. They're a little tricky to install
> and there are a few issues so read carefully before you jump in.

I have been trying out the (older) SBLive's ASIO drivers in the past, and
while they were working OK-ish it still was FAR away from feeling reliable,
compared to any audio card delivering "non-hacked" ASIO drivers.
Plus, never forget that any SBLive (and even the newer Audigy) is allways
resampling your stuff, as it's only working on 48kHz internally - that's why
you will also get the best results using 48kHz as your samplerate, but this
means being incompatible with almost everything/body (unless you want to
spend hours on kHz conversions).
My final conclusion: If you are even halfway serious about what you are
doing musically, if you shelled out the dough for a program such as Logic
(along with the money for some softsynths), get rid of any SBLive crap. With
nowadays fast computers you don't even need it for SF2 playback anymore.
Keep it for multimedia purposes if you need, but don't use it for any
audiorelated stuff. Shitty converters and crappy drivers - yes, it's that
simple!
Just try out another card and you will immediately feel and hear the immense
difference.

Regards,
Sascha

> Dyayvyd wrote:
> > Don't give up on your sblive just yet. There are ASIO drivers available
> > at http://www.kxproject.com/ .

> Sascha wrote:
> Just try out another card and you will immediately feel and hear
> the immense
> difference.

Fellas
Thanks very much for the quality replies! I do appreciate it. Sascha, you
are correct about going the extra mile having spent $$ on Logic. The SB
wasn't an arrangement I planned on sticking with long term. And thanks for
the explaination on NI's B4. That was  really bugging me.

Since we are on the subject of drivers (sort of) I would like to ask
clarification / opinions on their categories and how they relate to Logic /
Digital Audio.

..Based on my own reading and interpretation:

ASIO-2: The premier and preferred audio driver? Not supported by Logic 4.x,
5.x?

ASIO: The P and P if you can't use ASIO-2

EASI: Emagic's driver technology. Maybe not as good as ASIO unless it's
matched with Emagic hardware? EMI 2/6??

WDM: Equal to or better than ASIO when matched with supporting software / OS
platform, i.e. Sonar / Windows 32bit OS's. Not supported by Logic 4.x/5.x.
Although strangely enough Echo speaks about their ASIO driver as a ASIO WDM
driver. Now I'm confused.
See http://www.echoaudio.com/Download/6.02/echo24/Echo24%20readme%206.02.pdf
Page 12.

MME: Don't know much about this one. Seems to be an older driver folks are
moving away from.

Direct X: Same again.

GSIF: Gigasampler / Nemesys proprietary driver only.

end.

Thanks again, I'm off to spend money.

Douglas Harris

Douglas Harris wrote:

>
>
>
> WDM: Equal to or better than ASIO when matched with supporting
> software / OS
> platform, i.e. Sonar / Windows 32bit OS's. Not supported by Logic
> 4.x/5.x.

WDM is supported by the updated EASI/MME drivers in LA5



Dave Eager

> Don't give up on your sblive just yet. There are ASIO drivers available
> at http://www.kxproject.com/ . I've been using them for several months
> under windows XP: totally stable, a usable latency of 21ms and they
> sound better than Creative's drivers. They're a little tricky to install
> and there are a few issues so read carefully before you jump in.
> Regards,
> Dyav

Wow, thanks for that link! I had a lot of fun using the ASIO drivers this
past weekend. Unfortunately when I use them the MIDI I/O on my SBLive
Platinum doesn't work, probably because its an older SBLive Platinum, made
before the SBLive Plat 5.1 let alone the Audigy. So I'm back to using the
EASI DirectX drivers for now... :-( Oh well.

Jeremy