EXS 24 Logic Sampler Users Group

On a fine day, 08-09-2003, Larry Tarof wrote:

>I have Logic 5.5.0 with Mac OS 9.2 (could go to OS X but eMagic says this is
>not useful for my applications) on a G4 733.  I've been experimenting with
>panning on MIDI instruments, which are controlled through OMS.  Even for the
>extreme case of two instruments panned to opposite sides I can hear both
>instruments in both speakers and can't hear any stereo separation,

Are you *sure* the midi instruments can respond to incoming panning 
messages?  Not all midi-synths do, so that might be the problem. 
BTW, not very EXS-related, it seems -- wouldn't this be better suited 
for the LUG instead?

>Going to the LUG website, I don't see how to search on, e.g., 
>"panning".  Is http://f23.parsimony.net/forum49865/ still the 
>correct website?  What am I
>missing?

That has never been the correct site :-). The LUG is at:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/logic-users/

On the page is a 'search' field, etc...

-- 
Hendrik Jan Veenstra   h @ k n o w a r e . n l
Omega Art: http://www.omega-art.com/

I have Logic 5.5.0 with Mac OS 9.2 (could go to OS X but eMagic says this is
not useful for my applications). I'm trying to import a Giga format sample.
Unfortunately, the sample I care about (which represents the majority) is
formatted for PC on the CD (i.e. the disk itself), not for the Mac. The .wav
files which comprise the overall big file are importable into EXS. In this
particular case (from EastWest at Soundsonline), the disk is .rar compressed
into an .exe file which fits on a CD -- the uncompressed file would not. I
don't have access to a PC at my site.

Here's what I've done:
1. Offsite uncompress the .exe file onto a PC. It ends up as one large .gig
file.
2. Move .gig file to Mac offsite. Again one large .gig file (~900 MB).
3. Use Stuffit to compress .gig file into a .sit file which fits onto a CD.
Burn the CD.
4. Take the CD to my site and uncompress. It does uncompress but I get
"error 17538".
5. Import the file into EXS by moving the .gig file into the samples folder.
Logic thru EXS does in fact recognize the .gig file, creates an .exs file,
and moves 12, but only 12, of the
528 files (or is it 529? one file is in "default") gets converted to .wav.

The end result is that if I have the pedal down and play pp (not mf or ff),
I can hear some "A"s and "B-flat"s and nothing else. So I think I'm
partially there and the technique fundamentally works. I'd like to believe,
though, that there is a better way.

Has anyone gone through this before? Any tips, suggestions, etc.? Any ideas
on what it will take for the Giga format samples producers to recognize Mac
as important or for eMagic itself to supply tested procedures for importing
a supported format (Giga) which exists mainly on PC disks into the Logic
application, which is, going forward, being supported on Mac only?

Thanks,
Larry

At 02:41 PM 12/22/02 -0500, you wrote: 

>
> Here's what I've done:
> 1. Offsite uncompress the .exe file onto a PC. It ends up as one large .gig
> file.
> 2. Move .gig file to Mac offsite. Again one large .gig file (~900 MB).
> 3. Use Stuffit to compress .gig file into a .sit file which fits onto a CD.
> Burn the CD.
> 4. Take the CD to my site and uncompress. It does uncompress but I get
> "error 17538".


I suspect that this is a CRC (error checking) problem -- that the big sit
archive is corrupt. The gig archive could also be corrupt but I don't think
Stuffit would spot that. That's why the first 12 files were decoded but you
lost everything after the error. If you moved the big .gig file via a network
that could also have introduced an error in the gig file. You could try a
repeat or just burn a CD using the PC you started on without a transfer to Mac
-- if that is an option.

You could simply try to compress the gig file again -- see if your archiving
program can get it right a second time or use a different compression format.
Another possiblity is to use a utilitly which will split a big file across two
or more CDs  -- these exist for PC and must surely be available for the mac

>
> Has anyone gone through this before? Any tips, suggestions, etc.? Any ideas
> on what it will take for the Giga format samples producers to recognize Mac
> as important or for eMagic itself to supply tested procedures for importing
> a supported format (Giga) which exists mainly on PC disks into the Logic
> application, which is, going forward, being supported on Mac only?


Despite having read several hundred "Get a Mac" replies to PC users help
requests and several thousand "I got a Mac cos it's better" sigs on the LUG
over the last 7 years I find that am still able to resist giving the obvious
answers here ;-).

On its native platform, the large self-extracting archive containing everything
for an instrument is very convenient but it visits a lot of trouble on Mac
people. Because the compressed gig files are often very large it is not simply
a matter of putting an alternative version on the same disc. Not compressing
means more CD's in the box and more expense for the end user. 

Making Mac specific discs would also increase costs and handling expenses on
small print runs. Perhaps the neatest solution is for the Mac to run a small PC
emulation environment built for the express purpose of running conversion of
native PC exectuable archive files. Maybe Alladin could build this into their
archive manager.

If the instrument builders see that they have a significant potential customer
base of Mac users they might be more accommodating in future. 

Regards,
Murray

--- In exs-users@yahoogroups.com, Murray McDowall <murraymc@m...> 
wrote:
> At 02:41 PM 12/22/02 -0500, you wrote: 
> 
> >
> > Here's what I've done:
> > 1. Offsite uncompress the .exe file onto a PC. It ends up as one large .gig
> > file.
> > 2. Move .gig file to Mac offsite. Again one large .gig file (~900 MB).
> > 3. Use Stuffit to compress .gig file into a .sit file which fits onto a CD.
> > Burn the CD.
> > 4. Take the CD to my site and uncompress. It does uncompress but I get
> > "error 17538".
> 
> 
> I suspect that this is a CRC (error checking) problem -- that the big sit
> archive is corrupt. The gig archive could also be corrupt but I don't think
> Stuffit would spot that. That's why the first 12 files were decoded but you
> lost everything after the error. If you moved the big .gig file via a network
> that could also have introduced an error in the gig file. You could try a
> repeat or just burn a CD using the PC you started on without a transfer to Mac
> -- if that is an option.

Indeed, Ethernet was used to get from PC to Mac.  Is there another way?  
The uncompressed file is 900MB, which won't fit onto a CD.  

> 
> You could simply try to compress the gig file again -- see if your archiving
> program can get it right a second time or use a different compression format.
> Another possiblity is to use a utilitly which will split a big file across two
> or more CDs  -- these exist for PC and must surely be available for the mac

Are you aware of a utility which will split on PC and rejoin on Mac?

> 
> >
> > Has anyone gone through this before? Any tips, suggestions, etc.? Any ideas
> > on what it will take for the Giga format samples producers to recognize Mac
> > as important or for eMagic itself to supply tested procedures for importing
> > a supported format (Giga) which exists mainly on PC disks into the Logic
> > application, which is, going forward, being supported on Mac only?
> 
> 
> Despite having read several hundred "Get a Mac" replies to PC users help
> requests and several thousand "I got a Mac cos it's better" sigs on the LUG
> over the last 7 years I find that am still able to resist giving the obvious
> answers here ;-).
> 
> On its native platform, the large self-extracting archive containing everything
> for an instrument is very convenient but it visits a lot of trouble on Mac
> people. Because the compressed gig files are often very large it is not simply
> a matter of putting an alternative version on the same disc. Not compressing
> means more CD's in the box and more expense for the end user. 
More CDs in the box -- fair comments.
More expense for end user?  Isn't this marginal given that a CD costs 
~$1 but the samples can cost >$100?  Of course I wouldn't recommend 
this if the samples were already dirt cheap, but that's not the case 
for giga format samples.

> 
> Making Mac specific discs would also increase costs and handling expenses on
> small print runs. Perhaps the neatest solution is for the Mac to run a small PC
> emulation environment built for the express purpose of running conversion of
> native PC exectuable archive files. Maybe Alladin could build this into their
> archive manager.

Small print runs?  Does anyone have an idea of what volume there exists 
for giga format samples?

Mac specific discs -- isn't this merely a matter of using Stuffit 
compression on the .gig file which already exists?  Especially for the 
more expensive samples, wouldn't this be a marginal cost for 
potentially significantly larger revenue?

I like the idea of Mac running a utility to extract files from a PC; 
are there any eMagic/Apple decision makers in this audience?

> 
> If the instrument builders see that they have a significant potential customer
> base of Mac users they might be more accommodating in future.

And this is the crux of the matter.  And this is surprising to me, 
given that so many times one hears that sound/recording engineers use 
Macs -- and even that Apple thought it important to acquire eMagic.
 
> 
> Regards,
> Murray
Thanks for taking the trouble to reply.  Cheers, Larry

Larry wrote: 
>
> Indeed, Ethernet was used to get from PC to Mac.  Is there another way?  
> The uncompressed file is 900MB, which won't fit onto a CD.  


If the PC has a CD burner you can avoid an ethernet transfer. I don't know how
likely that is to be the problem -- a file compare utility could confirm that
the file made it across OK. 
 
>
> > You could simply try to compress the gig file again -- see if your
> archiving
> > program can get it right a second time or use a different compression
> format.
> > Another possiblity is to use a utilitly which will split a big file across
> two
> > or more CDs  -- these exist for PC and must surely be available for the mac
>
> Are you aware of a utility which will split on PC and rejoin on Mac?


Sorry no -- but there is a lot of Mac expertise on this list and L-OT.

>
> > On its native platform, the large self-extracting archive containing
> everything
> > for an instrument is very convenient but it visits a lot of trouble on Mac
> > people. Because the compressed gig files are often very large it is not
> simply
> > a matter of putting an alternative version on the same disc. Not
> compressing
> > means more CD's in the box and more expense for the end user. 


>
> More CDs in the box -- fair comments.
> More expense for end user?  Isn't this marginal given that a CD costs 
> ~$1 but the samples can cost >$100?  Of course I wouldn't recommend 
> this if the samples were already dirt cheap, but that's not the case 
> for giga format samples.


After I sent my last post I decided that the simplest cross platform solution
is for the distributors to stop using self-exectuing archives. Distributing
zips or rar files would mean that Mac users would not have to try to run PC
executables. The reason the distributors use these things is pretty obvious -- 
they are idiot proof and thus reduce the support burden. WinZip, WinRAR  etc --
not everyone has them or knows how to use them -- self-executing archives solve
that one.

Really big instruments that span multiple discs are often designed to be
installed from within Gigasampler/Studio which conducts the installation
process. This is fixable with a simple Mac utility which the distributor can
supply if they are willing and are easily contactable. 

>
> > Making Mac specific discs would also increase costs and handling expenses
> on
> > small print runs. Perhaps the neatest solution is for the Mac to run a
> small PC
> > emulation environment built for the express purpose of running conversion
> of
> > native PC exectuable archive files. Maybe Alladin could build this into
> their
> > archive manager.
>
> Small print runs?  Does anyone have an idea of what volume there exists 
> for giga format samples?


My impression is that a lot of these people are pretty small fry -- I would
guess as few as a couple of hundred legit copies for some of these instruments.
Of course, if the instrument is decent, it keeps on selling for years. 

>
> Mac specific discs -- isn't this merely a matter of using Stuffit 
> compression on the .gig file which already exists?  Especially for the 
> more expensive samples, wouldn't this be a marginal cost for 
> potentially significantly larger revenue?


The little guy is probably going to like the cross-platform idea best. Bigger
operations might be prepared to distribute two inventory items and print two
labels and print two runs of CDs etc. The thing to remember is that
Gigasampler/Studio is actually pretty big -- it has sold a lot of copies over
several years and is widely used. Support for gig format in Halion, EXS and
Kontact is all relatively new and a lot of the users of those are also on PC. 
So the law of inertia applies -- the supplying gig instruments in a form
convenient to Mac users will probably happen when the old print runs of CDs are
sold off etc.

Good luck with getting your instrument happening,

Regards,
Murray

Thoughts from the mind of steinway03 <ltarof@...>, 23-12-2002:

>Are you aware of a utility which will split on PC and rejoin on Mac?

Well, I, for one, am not.  However, writing a simple program that 
does this should really not take more than a couple of minutes, 
literally.  So if there's not such a thing for Mac & PC, I could try 
and find the time to write it.  I just wonder how much interest there 
would be for such an application (well, there's at least one 
interested person already, I guess :-).

-- 
Hendrik Jan Veenstra  <h@...>

*** NEW LOCATION *** Omega Art: http://www.omega-art.com

I have Logic 5.5.0 with Mac OS 9.2 (could go to OS X but eMagic says this is
not useful for my applications) on a G4 733.  I've been experimenting with
panning on MIDI instruments, which are controlled through OMS.  Even for the
extreme case of two instruments panned to opposite sides I can hear both
instruments in both speakers and can't hear any stereo separation, either in
my monitor speakers or on a CD produced from the corresponding .aif file
recorded in stereo, played on a second sound system (which should eliminate
the sound system from the equation, I would think).  In the Logic Event
Window (#2) the pan command is clear.  In the Logic Track Mixer the panning
is clearly visible.  I'm not sure whether I've got mono or stereo with the
panning not working.  Whichever way, though, I would expect to be able to
hear separation from the panning.

Does anyone have any experience, comments or suggestions?

Thanks,
Larry 

P.S. Although I've been skimming the LUG e-mails, my first though is that
it's possible I've missed a discussion.  Going to the LUG website, I don't
see how to search on, e.g., "panning".  Is
http://f23.parsimony.net/forum49865/ still the correct website?  What am I
missing?



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]