EXS 24 Logic Sampler Users Group

Dear EXS Forum User's,

We offer free tryout versions of our upcoming products to give the
possibility for everybody to check out our MVIs, so you know what you can
expect with the full versions. Audio demos are always a nice thing, but
finally with these demos nobody can get any impressions of playability,
handling, etc.
How many bandwidth we have to pay for these tryouts is our problem, I would
say. See it as a kind of service for all interested users.

We as the Developers of Majestic and Culture have been watching your post's
regarding our Instruments with interest for the last couple of day's.
Whilst we never normally interfere in Open Forums/Mailing lists, we feel we
have to explain things a bit more clearly at this point.

By re-sampling the sounds we supplied with the 'Tryout ' versions of our
Instrument's, you have inadvertently broken the License agreement supplied
with the 'Tryout' versions.

As specified in the "Audio Samples" license agreement....

> "All unauthorised giving, trading, lending, renting, re-issuing,
> re-distribution or re-sale of this product or any of the sounds it contains
> are expressly prohibited."


And also in Section 2.(Restrictions) of the Software License agreement....

     "You may not modify, rent, lease, loan, distribute or create derivative
works 
      based upon the Software in whole or in part."

As I'm sure you now understand, the distribution of these samples by members
of this list has to stop.
We have worked long and hard to develop these instrument for musicians to
use, in order to give them what we feel is a 'Top Quality, Credible
Instrument', please respect this fact and stop this at once.
We do not want to have to get further involved in stopping this legally as
this just cut's into our development time and is counter productive for all
involved.

I am sad that this has had to be done , but I felt that there was no other
obvious cause of action.

Your Sincerely

Christian Hellinger
Yellow tools
> 
>                  
> 
> 
>                                 "Yellow Tools License Agreements"
>  
> 
> 
> ======================================
> yellow tools Audio Samples license agreement
> ======================================
> ALL SAMPLES ARE 100% COPYRIGHT CLEAN !!!
> You can use the material, which is included in this library, for commercial or
> noncommercial music productions, without worrying about the possibility of
> copyright injuries. Yellow tools produced all sounds for yellow tools and all
> rights of these sounds are of the company yellow tools. If you buy a yellow
> tools product, you'll get a single license for use of the sounds/samples for
> your  music productions.
> However, it would greatly appreciated if you adhered to the following
> crediting guidelines on any music recording that utilizes material from yellow
> tools ³Culture³. We would be very thankful if you could include the following
> courtesy credits using this wording only: Percussion Samples courtesy of
> yellow tools ³Culture²
> Screen credit for film & television use is not required except on soundtrack
> albums etc.
> Without the written consent of yellow tools, the reproduction or duplication
> of the products or sound recordings within them (either as they exist on the
> disc or by any means of reformatting, mixing, filtering, re-synthesizing,
> processing, editing for use in another product or for re-sale) is strictly
> prohibited.
> All unauthorized giving, trading, lending, renting, re-issuing,
> re-distribution or re-sale of this product or any of the sounds it contains
> are expressly prohibited.
> In short: DON¹T COPY THIS LIBRARY!
> 
> 
> ============================================
> YELLOW TOOLS Software End User License Agreement
> ============================================
> PLEASE READ THIS LICENSE CAREFULLY BEFORE USING THE SOFTWARE. BY USING THE
> SOFTWARE, YOU ARE AGREEING TO BE BOUND BY THE TERMS OF THIS LICENSE. IF YOU DO
> NOT AGREE TO THE TERMS OF THIS LICENSE, PROMPTLY RETURN THE UNUSED SOFTWARE TO
> THE PLACE WHERE YOU OBTAINED IT AND YOUR MONEY WILL BE REFUNDED.
> 
> 1. License.
> The application, demonstration, system and other software accompanying this
> License, whether on disk, in read only memory, or on any other media (the
> 'Software'), the related documentation and fonts are licensed to you by Yellow
> tools and its Licensors. You own the disk on which the Software and fonts are
> recorded but Yellow tools and/or Yellow tools' licensors retain title to the
> Software, related documentation and fonts. This License allows you to use the
> Software and fonts on a single computer. You may use a copy of the software on
> a home or portable computer, as long as the extra copy is never loaded at the
> same time the software is loaded on the primary computer on which you use the
> Software. You may make one copy of the Software and fonts in machine-readable
> form for backup purposes. You must reproduce on such copy the Yellow tools
> copyright notice and any other proprietary legends that were on the original
> copy of the Software and fonts. You may also transfer all your license rights
> in the Software and fonts, the backup copy of the Software and fonts, the
> related documentation and a copy of this License to another party, provided
> the other party reads and agrees to accept the terms and conditions of this
> License. 
> 
> 2. Restrictions.
> The Software contains copyrighted material, trade secrets, and other
> proprietary material. In order to protect them, and except as permitted by
> applicable legislation, you may not decompile, reverse engineer, disassemble
> or otherwise reduce the Software to a human-perceivable form. You may not
> modify, rent, lease, loan, distribute or create derivative works based upon
> the Software in whole or in part.
> 
> 3. Termination.
> This License is effective until terminated. You may terminate this License at
> any time by destroying the Software, related documentation and fonts and all
> copies thereof. This License will terminate immediately without notice from
> Yellow tools if you fail to comply with any provision of this License. Upon
> termination you must destroy the Software, related documentation and fonts and
> all copies thereof.
> 
> 4. Limited Warranty on Media.
> Yellow tools warrants the compact discs and /or DVD(s) on which the Software
> and fonts are recorded to be free from defects in materials and workmanship
> under normal use for a period of ninety (90) days from the date of purchase as
> evidenced by a copy of the receipt. Yellow tools's entire liability and your
> exclusive remedy will be replacement of the diskettes, DVD(s) and/or compact
> discs not meeting Yellow tools limited warranty and which is returned to
> Yellow tools with a copy of the receipt. Yellow tools will have no
> responsibility to replace a disk/disc/DVD damaged by accident, abuse or
> misapplication. ANY IMPLIED WARRANTIES ON THE COMPACT DISC/DISKETTE(S)/DVD(S),
> INCLUDING THE IMPLIED WARRANTIES OF MERCHANTABILITY AND FITNESS FOR A
> PARTICULAR PURPOSE, ARE LIMITED IN DURATION TO NINETY (90) DAYS FROM THE DATE
> OF DELIVERY. THIS WARRANTY GIVES YOU SPECIFIC LEGAL RIGHTS, AND YOU MAY ALSO
> HAVE OTHER RIGHTS WHICH VARY BY JURISDICTION.
> 
> 5. Disclaimer of Warranty on Yellow tools Software.
> You expressly acknowledge and agree that use of the Software and fonts is at
> your sole risk. The Software, related documentation and fonts are provided 'AS
> IS' and without warranty of any kind and Yellow tools and Yellow tools'
> Licensor(s) (for the purposes of provisions 4 and 5, Yellow tools and Yellow
> tools' Licensor(s) shall be collectively referred to as 'Yellow tools')
> EXPRESSLY DISCLAIM ALL OTHER WARRANTIES, EXPRESS OR IMPLIED, INCLUDING, BUT
> NOT LIMITED TO, THE IMPLIED WARRANTIES OF MERCHANTABILITY, FITNESS FOR A
> PARTICULAR PURPOSE AND NONINFRINGEMENT. YELLOW TOOLS DOES NOT WARRANT THAT THE
> FUNCTIONS CONTAINED IN THE SOFTWARE WILL MEET YOUR REQUIREMENTS, OR THAT THE
> OPERATION OF THE SOFTWARE WILL BE UNINTERRUPTED OR ERROR-FREE, OR THAT DEFECTS
> IN THE SOFTWARE AND THE FONTS WILL BE CORRECTED. FURTHERMORE, YELLOW TOOLS
> DOES NOT WARRANT OR MAKE ANY REPRESENTATIONS REGARDING THE USE OR THE RESULTS
> OF THE USE OF THE SOFTWARE AND FONTS OR RELATED DOCUMENTATION IN TERMS OF
> THEIR CORRECTNESS, ACCURACY, RELIABILITY, OR OTHERWISE. NO ORAL OR WRITTEN
> INFORMATION OR ADVICE GIVEN BY YELLOW TOOLS OR A YELLOW TOOLS AUTHORIZED
> REPRESENTATIVE SHALL CREATE A WARRANTY OR IN ANY WAY INCREASE THE SCOPE OF
> THIS WARRANTY. WITHOUT LIMITING THE FOREGOING, YELLOW TOOLS DISCLAIMS ANY AND
> ALL EXPRESS OR IMPLIED WARRANTIES OF ANY KIND, AND YOU EXPRESSLY ASSUME ALL
> LIABILITIES AND RISKS, FOR USE OR OPERATION OF THE SOFTWARE, INCLUDING WITHOUT
> LIMITATION.  SHOULD THE SOFTWARE PROVE DEFECTIVE, YOU (AND NOT YELLOW TOOLS OR
> A YELLOW TOOLS AUTHORIZED REPRESENTATIVE) ASSUME THE ENTIRE COST OF ALL
> NECESSARY SERVICING, REPAIR OR CORRECTION. SOME JURISDICTIONS DO NOT ALLOW THE
> EXCLUSION OF IMPLIED WARRANTIES, SO THE ABOVE EXCLUSION MAY NOT APPLY TO YOU.
> 
> 6. Limitation of Liability.
> UNDER NO CIRCUMSTANCES INCLUDING NEGLIGENCE, SHALL YELLOW TOOLS BE LIABLE FOR
> ANY INCIDENTAL, SPECIAL OR CONSEQUENTIAL DAMAGES THAT RESULT FROM THE USE OR
> INABILITY TO USE THE SOFTWARE OR RELATED DOCUMENTATION, EVEN IF YELLOW TOOLS
> OR A YELLOW TOOLS AUTHORIZED REPRESENTATIVE HAS BEEN ADVISED OF THE
> POSSIBILITY OF SUCH DAMAGES. SOME JURISDICTIONS DO NOT ALLOW THE LIMITATION OR
> EXCLUSION OF LIABILITY FOR INCIDENTAL OR CONSEQUENTIAL DAMAGES SO THE ABOVE
> LIMITATION OR EXCLUSION MAY NOT APPLY TO YOU. In no event shall Yellow tools'
> total liability to you for all damages, losses, and causes of action (whether
> in contract, tort (including negligence) or otherwise) exceed that portion of
> the amount paid by you which is fairly attributable to the Software and fonts.
> 
> 7. Controlling Law and Severability.
> This License shall be governed by and construed in accordance with the laws of
> the Federal Republic of Germany. If for any reason a court of competent
> jurisdiction finds any provision of this License, or portion thereof, to be
> unenforceable, that provision of the License shall be enforced to the maximum
> extent permissible so as to effect the intent of the parties, and the
> remainder of this License shall continue in full force and effect.
> 
> 8. Complete Agreement.
> This License constitutes the entire agreement between the parties with respect
> to the use of the Software, the related documentation and fonts, and
> supersedes all prior or contemporaneous understandings or agreements, written
> or oral, regarding such subject matter. No amendment to or modification of
> this License will be binding unless in writing and signed by a duly authorized
> representative of yellow tools.
> Should you have any questions or comments concerning this license, please do
> not hesitate to write to yellow tools GBR, Printzstrasse 4, 76139 Karlsruhe,
> Germany. attn: Warranty Information. Email: info@....



---------------------------------------------
yellow tools
Printzstr. 4
D-76139 Karlsruhe
Germany

fon: +49-721-62 73 89 01
fax: +49-721-62 73 89 06

info@...
www.yellowtools.de

Hey Christian, and everyone else here...

Well, that ends that one... :-)

That was kinda of freaky too, wouldn't ya all say, like "someone was 
watching us"...

Thanks for the post though, Christian!  Good thing I didn't get to use 
them yet anyhow, and then maybe have LIKED them, and then have to STOP 
using them. So it worked out pretty good for me. I will delete them 
right away!  :-)

Also, I never got that "agreement" to begin with... nowhere to be found 
on my download from your website. I use OS X, hence no access to the 
VST implementation of this software anyhow.

Take care,
Chris M.


On Wednesday, January 8, 2003, at 04:59  AM, Christian Hellinger 
(yellow tools) wrote:

> Dear EXS Forum User's,
>
> We offer free tryout versions of our upcoming products to give the
> possibility for everybody to check out our MVIs, so you know what you 
> can
> expect with the full versions. Audio demos are always a nice thing, but
> finally with these demos nobody can get any impressions of playability,
> handling, etc.
> How many bandwidth we have to pay for these tryouts is our problem, I 
> would
> say. See it as a kind of service for all interested users.
>
> We as the Developers of Majestic and Culture have been watching your 
> post's
> regarding our Instruments with interest for the last couple of day's.
> Whilst we never normally interfere in Open Forums/Mailing lists, we 
> feel we
> have to explain things a bit more clearly at this point.
>
> By re-sampling the sounds we supplied with the 'Tryout ' versions of 
> our
> Instrument's, you have inadvertently broken the License agreement 
> supplied
> with the 'Tryout' versions.
>
> As specified in the "Audio Samples" license agreement....
>
>> "All unauthorised giving, trading, lending, renting, re-issuing,
>> re-distribution or re-sale of this product or any of the sounds it 
>> contains
>> are expressly prohibited."
>
>
> And also in Section 2.(Restrictions) of the Software License 
> agreement....
>
>      "You may not modify, rent, lease, loan, distribute or create 
> derivative
> works
>       based upon the Software in whole or in part."
>
> As I'm sure you now understand, the distribution of these samples by 
> members
> of this list has to stop.
> We have worked long and hard to develop these instrument for musicians 
> to
> use, in order to give them what we feel is a 'Top Quality, Credible
> Instrument', please respect this fact and stop this at once.
> We do not want to have to get further involved in stopping this 
> legally as
> this just cut's into our development time and is counter productive 
> for all
> involved.
>
> I am sad that this has had to be done , but I felt that there was no 
> other
> obvious cause of action.
>
> Your Sincerely
>
> Christian Hellinger
> Yellow tools

"Christian Hellinger (yellow tools)" <ch@...> wrote: 
>
> Dear EXS Forum User's,
>
> By re-sampling the sounds we supplied with the 'Tryout ' versions of our
> Instrument's, you have inadvertently broken the License agreement supplied
> with the 'Tryout' versions.


Hi Christian,

It seems that there some confusion has arisen from the discussion here.
Absolutely no re-sampling or re-distribution of your samples has occurred. That
would clearly be a violation of your IP rights - but, as I said,  it has not
occurred.  

You have put about 1% of the samples in each instrument up on your site and we
EXS24 users -- including those on the PC platform have had a chance to try them
out. I would suggest that this is all good publicity for your sample based
instruments.

If you had wished to keep your samples private you could have used a
non-standard format for them.  Your demos could have been closed by some method
(encryption/non-standard formats) but your company (wisely in my view)  opted
to avoid this course. 

Regards,
M

Hi Murray,
 
> It seems that there some confusion has arisen from the discussion here.
> Absolutely no re-sampling or re-distribution of your samples has occurred.
> That
> would clearly be a violation of your IP rights - but, as I said,  it has not
> occurred.  

Using the samples of the tryout versions within other applications is
against the license agreement, because you are not allowed to create a new
sampling library with it.
 
> You have put about 1% of the samples in each instrument up on your site and we
> EXS24 users -- including those on the PC platform have had a chance to try
> them
> out. I would suggest that this is all good publicity for your sample based
> instruments.

We will offer the PC versions in a few weeks. Also there is absolutely no
sense to use the samples with another sampler if we already give an
optimized software instrument...
 
> If you had wished to keep your samples private you could have used a
> non-standard format for them.  Your demos could have been closed by some
> method
> (encryption/non-standard formats) but your company (wisely in my view)  opted
> to avoid this course.

All legal users complain about all the copy-protections with dongles, codes,
hardware, keys, ... and also about one 9GB large file on their HDD.
Sure we could have taken any kind of protection - and of course the final
versions will have - but has the time already come where we have to protect
even demo-versions and tryouts?
We offer FREE tryouts with up to 145MB sounds included. You are allowed to
use it even commercially. Take it, use it and enjoy it, but keep the license
and do not transfer the samples to other applications!
Best

Christian 

---------------------------------------------
yellow tools
Printzstr. 4
D-76139 Karlsruhe
Germany

fon: +49-721-62 73 89 01
fax: +49-721-62 73 89 06

info@...
www.yellowtools.de

Dear Christian Hellinger !

Thank you for taking the opportunity to voice your opinion in this
forum. However from your post it seems there is a misconception as
to what has been discussed in this forum.

I will try to clarify further down.

>By re-sampling the sounds we supplied with the 'Tryout ' versions of our
>Instrument's, you have inadvertently broken the License agreement supplied
>with the 'Tryout' versions.

To my knowledge nobody in this forum has re-sampled any of your samples.

>As specified in the "Audio Samples" license agreement....
>
>> "All unauthorised giving, trading, lending, renting, re-issuing,
>> re-distribution or re-sale of this product or any of the sounds it
>> contains are expressly prohibited."

Again to my knowledge none of this has happened. At least it has not
been made public on this forum.

What happened is that the demo versions of Majestic and Culture have
received free advertising. It was also pointed out that these demo
versions do contain samples that could be loaded into the EXS24 sampler.

>And also in Section 2.(Restrictions) of the Software License agreement....
>
>     "You may not modify, rent, lease, loan, distribute or create
>      derivative works 
>      based upon the Software in whole or in part."
>
>As I'm sure you now understand, the distribution of these samples by
>members of this list has to stop.

As I'm sure you now understand, no member of this forum has distributed
*ANY* samples whatsoever.

However what I would like to know from you and possibly from YT is
wether creating an EXS24 instrument (i.e. a list of mappings of
filenames from the harddisk to keys/keyzones/velocityzones etc.)
which happens to contain the names of the YT samples is to be
considered a "derivative work" in the context of Section 2. of
the Software Licence agreement.

Note that nobody can make use of this instrument without prior
having downloaded the demos from your site.

In other words:
Is it the position of YT that publishing EXS24 instrument (no samples
includes) is a violation of the Software Licence agreement ?


>We have worked long and hard to develop these instrument for musicians to
>use, in order to give them what we feel is a 'Top Quality, Credible
>Instrument', please respect this fact and stop this at once.
>We do not want to have to get further involved in stopping this legally as
>this just cut's into our development time and is counter productive for all
>involved.
>
>I am sad that this has had to be done , but I felt that there was no other
>obvious cause of action.

Let me repeat that I welcome that you took the opportunity to voice
your (and possibly YTs) concerns.

I hope by now you agree that these concerns are based on a
misunderstanding as to what has actually happened.

Yours sincerely,
Michael Gerdau
--
 Vote against SPAM - see http://www.politik-digital.de/spam/
 Michael Gerdau       email: mgd@...
 Convert your Pentium III into a Game Boy, run Windows NT!
 GPG/PGP-keys available on request or at public keyserver

Christian Hellinger wrote: 

>
> Using the samples of the tryout versions within other applications is
> against the license agreement, because you are not allowed to create a new
> sampling library with it.


Hmmm .. this gets complicated. I certainly hadn't thought of that as
"resampling."

Let's say I record a one note sequence in Logic and play it through Majestic.
Then I bounce that sequence to an audio track: Voila -- I have "resampled" it -
no? 

>
> We will offer the PC versions in a few weeks. Also there is absolutely no
> sense to use the samples with another sampler if we already give an
> optimized software instrument...



Yes -- I was really just impatient to try them since I am on PC .

>
> We offer FREE tryouts with up to 145MB sounds included. You are allowed to
> use it even commercially. Take it, use it and enjoy it, but keep the license
> and do not transfer the samples to other applications!


Christian -- thanks for  your reply. I look forward to the PC version. I hope I
don't need to download the whole thing again. :-)

BTW Until I heard these latest samples,  the only Yellow Tools samples I had
heard were the ones which came with Kontact. I am much more impressed with the
samples in Culture and Majectic so IMHO, these free offers to attract customers
will benefit your company, not harm it.

Best Regards,
Murray

OK, now I'm really confused. There's no giving, trading, lending, renting,
re-issuing, re-distribution or re-sale going on here. No one is trading the
sounds, only creating a new system of organization of sounds and sharing
that. I'm not convinced of the similarity here. If your product is never
exchanged, how can you classify it as such, or consider it a misuse? Sorry
to beat a dead horse here... Jer

> Dear EXS Forum User's,
> 
> We offer free tryout versions of our upcoming products to give the
> possibility for everybody to check out our MVIs, so you know what you can
> expect with the full versions. Audio demos are always a nice thing, but
> finally with these demos nobody can get any impressions of playability,
> handling, etc.
> How many bandwidth we have to pay for these tryouts is our problem, I would
> say. See it as a kind of service for all interested users.
> 
> We as the Developers of Majestic and Culture have been watching your post's
> regarding our Instruments with interest for the last couple of day's.
> Whilst we never normally interfere in Open Forums/Mailing lists, we feel we
> have to explain things a bit more clearly at this point.
> 
> By re-sampling the sounds we supplied with the 'Tryout ' versions of our
> Instrument's, you have inadvertently broken the License agreement supplied
> with the 'Tryout' versions.
> 
> As specified in the "Audio Samples" license agreement....
> 
>> "All unauthorised giving, trading, lending, renting, re-issuing,
>> re-distribution or re-sale of this product or any of the sounds it contains
>> are expressly prohibited."
> 
> 
> And also in Section 2.(Restrictions) of the Software License agreement....
> 
>    "You may not modify, rent, lease, loan, distribute or create derivative
> works 
>     based upon the Software in whole or in part."
> 
> As I'm sure you now understand, the distribution of these samples by members
> of this list has to stop.
> We have worked long and hard to develop these instrument for musicians to
> use, in order to give them what we feel is a 'Top Quality, Credible
> Instrument', please respect this fact and stop this at once.
> We do not want to have to get further involved in stopping this legally as
> this just cut's into our development time and is counter productive for all
> involved.
> 
> I am sad that this has had to be done , but I felt that there was no other
> obvious cause of action.
> 
> Your Sincerely
> 
> Christian Hellinger
> Yellow tools
>> 
>>                 
>> 
>> 
>>                                 "Yellow Tools License Agreements"
>>  
>> 
>> 
>> ======================================
>> yellow tools Audio Samples license agreement
>> ======================================
>> ALL SAMPLES ARE 100% COPYRIGHT CLEAN !!!
>> You can use the material, which is included in this library, for commercial
>> or
>> noncommercial music productions, without worrying about the possibility of
>> copyright injuries. Yellow tools produced all sounds for yellow tools and all
>> rights of these sounds are of the company yellow tools. If you buy a yellow
>> tools product, you'll get a single license for use of the sounds/samples for
>> your  music productions.
>> However, it would greatly appreciated if you adhered to the following
>> crediting guidelines on any music recording that utilizes material from
>> yellow
>> tools ³Culture³. We would be very thankful if you could include the following
>> courtesy credits using this wording only: Percussion Samples courtesy of
>> yellow tools ³Culture²
>> Screen credit for film & television use is not required except on soundtrack
>> albums etc.
>> Without the written consent of yellow tools, the reproduction or duplication
>> of the products or sound recordings within them (either as they exist on the
>> disc or by any means of reformatting, mixing, filtering, re-synthesizing,
>> processing, editing for use in another product or for re-sale) is strictly
>> prohibited.
>> All unauthorized giving, trading, lending, renting, re-issuing,
>> re-distribution or re-sale of this product or any of the sounds it contains
>> are expressly prohibited.
>> In short: DON¹T COPY THIS LIBRARY!
>> 
>> 
>> ============================================
>> YELLOW TOOLS Software End User License Agreement
>> ============================================
>> PLEASE READ THIS LICENSE CAREFULLY BEFORE USING THE SOFTWARE. BY USING THE
>> SOFTWARE, YOU ARE AGREEING TO BE BOUND BY THE TERMS OF THIS LICENSE. IF YOU
>> DO
>> NOT AGREE TO THE TERMS OF THIS LICENSE, PROMPTLY RETURN THE UNUSED SOFTWARE
>> TO
>> THE PLACE WHERE YOU OBTAINED IT AND YOUR MONEY WILL BE REFUNDED.
>> 
>> 1. License.
>> The application, demonstration, system and other software accompanying this
>> License, whether on disk, in read only memory, or on any other media (the
>> 'Software'), the related documentation and fonts are licensed to you by
>> Yellow
>> tools and its Licensors. You own the disk on which the Software and fonts are
>> recorded but Yellow tools and/or Yellow tools' licensors retain title to the
>> Software, related documentation and fonts. This License allows you to use the
>> Software and fonts on a single computer. You may use a copy of the software
>> on
>> a home or portable computer, as long as the extra copy is never loaded at the
>> same time the software is loaded on the primary computer on which you use the
>> Software. You may make one copy of the Software and fonts in machine-readable
>> form for backup purposes. You must reproduce on such copy the Yellow tools
>> copyright notice and any other proprietary legends that were on the original
>> copy of the Software and fonts. You may also transfer all your license rights
>> in the Software and fonts, the backup copy of the Software and fonts, the
>> related documentation and a copy of this License to another party, provided
>> the other party reads and agrees to accept the terms and conditions of this
>> License. 
>> 
>> 2. Restrictions.
>> The Software contains copyrighted material, trade secrets, and other
>> proprietary material. In order to protect them, and except as permitted by
>> applicable legislation, you may not decompile, reverse engineer, disassemble
>> or otherwise reduce the Software to a human-perceivable form. You may not
>> modify, rent, lease, loan, distribute or create derivative works based upon
>> the Software in whole or in part.
>> 
>> 3. Termination.
>> This License is effective until terminated. You may terminate this License at
>> any time by destroying the Software, related documentation and fonts and all
>> copies thereof. This License will terminate immediately without notice from
>> Yellow tools if you fail to comply with any provision of this License. Upon
>> termination you must destroy the Software, related documentation and fonts
>> and
>> all copies thereof.
>> 
>> 4. Limited Warranty on Media.
>> Yellow tools warrants the compact discs and /or DVD(s) on which the Software
>> and fonts are recorded to be free from defects in materials and workmanship
>> under normal use for a period of ninety (90) days from the date of purchase
>> as
>> evidenced by a copy of the receipt. Yellow tools's entire liability and your
>> exclusive remedy will be replacement of the diskettes, DVD(s) and/or compact
>> discs not meeting Yellow tools limited warranty and which is returned to
>> Yellow tools with a copy of the receipt. Yellow tools will have no
>> responsibility to replace a disk/disc/DVD damaged by accident, abuse or
>> misapplication. ANY IMPLIED WARRANTIES ON THE COMPACT
>> DISC/DISKETTE(S)/DVD(S),
>> INCLUDING THE IMPLIED WARRANTIES OF MERCHANTABILITY AND FITNESS FOR A
>> PARTICULAR PURPOSE, ARE LIMITED IN DURATION TO NINETY (90) DAYS FROM THE DATE
>> OF DELIVERY. THIS WARRANTY GIVES YOU SPECIFIC LEGAL RIGHTS, AND YOU MAY ALSO
>> HAVE OTHER RIGHTS WHICH VARY BY JURISDICTION.
>> 
>> 5. Disclaimer of Warranty on Yellow tools Software.
>> You expressly acknowledge and agree that use of the Software and fonts is at
>> your sole risk. The Software, related documentation and fonts are provided
>> 'AS
>> IS' and without warranty of any kind and Yellow tools and Yellow tools'
>> Licensor(s) (for the purposes of provisions 4 and 5, Yellow tools and Yellow
>> tools' Licensor(s) shall be collectively referred to as 'Yellow tools')
>> EXPRESSLY DISCLAIM ALL OTHER WARRANTIES, EXPRESS OR IMPLIED, INCLUDING, BUT
>> NOT LIMITED TO, THE IMPLIED WARRANTIES OF MERCHANTABILITY, FITNESS FOR A
>> PARTICULAR PURPOSE AND NONINFRINGEMENT. YELLOW TOOLS DOES NOT WARRANT THAT
>> THE
>> FUNCTIONS CONTAINED IN THE SOFTWARE WILL MEET YOUR REQUIREMENTS, OR THAT THE
>> OPERATION OF THE SOFTWARE WILL BE UNINTERRUPTED OR ERROR-FREE, OR THAT
>> DEFECTS
>> IN THE SOFTWARE AND THE FONTS WILL BE CORRECTED. FURTHERMORE, YELLOW TOOLS
>> DOES NOT WARRANT OR MAKE ANY REPRESENTATIONS REGARDING THE USE OR THE RESULTS
>> OF THE USE OF THE SOFTWARE AND FONTS OR RELATED DOCUMENTATION IN TERMS OF
>> THEIR CORRECTNESS, ACCURACY, RELIABILITY, OR OTHERWISE. NO ORAL OR WRITTEN
>> INFORMATION OR ADVICE GIVEN BY YELLOW TOOLS OR A YELLOW TOOLS AUTHORIZED
>> REPRESENTATIVE SHALL CREATE A WARRANTY OR IN ANY WAY INCREASE THE SCOPE OF
>> THIS WARRANTY. WITHOUT LIMITING THE FOREGOING, YELLOW TOOLS DISCLAIMS ANY AND
>> ALL EXPRESS OR IMPLIED WARRANTIES OF ANY KIND, AND YOU EXPRESSLY ASSUME ALL
>> LIABILITIES AND RISKS, FOR USE OR OPERATION OF THE SOFTWARE, INCLUDING
>> WITHOUT
>> LIMITATION.  SHOULD THE SOFTWARE PROVE DEFECTIVE, YOU (AND NOT YELLOW TOOLS
>> OR
>> A YELLOW TOOLS AUTHORIZED REPRESENTATIVE) ASSUME THE ENTIRE COST OF ALL
>> NECESSARY SERVICING, REPAIR OR CORRECTION. SOME JURISDICTIONS DO NOT ALLOW
>> THE
>> EXCLUSION OF IMPLIED WARRANTIES, SO THE ABOVE EXCLUSION MAY NOT APPLY TO YOU.
>> 
>> 6. Limitation of Liability.
>> UNDER NO CIRCUMSTANCES INCLUDING NEGLIGENCE, SHALL YELLOW TOOLS BE LIABLE FOR
>> ANY INCIDENTAL, SPECIAL OR CONSEQUENTIAL DAMAGES THAT RESULT FROM THE USE OR
>> INABILITY TO USE THE SOFTWARE OR RELATED DOCUMENTATION, EVEN IF YELLOW TOOLS
>> OR A YELLOW TOOLS AUTHORIZED REPRESENTATIVE HAS BEEN ADVISED OF THE
>> POSSIBILITY OF SUCH DAMAGES. SOME JURISDICTIONS DO NOT ALLOW THE LIMITATION
>> OR
>> EXCLUSION OF LIABILITY FOR INCIDENTAL OR CONSEQUENTIAL DAMAGES SO THE ABOVE
>> LIMITATION OR EXCLUSION MAY NOT APPLY TO YOU. In no event shall Yellow tools'
>> total liability to you for all damages, losses, and causes of action (whether
>> in contract, tort (including negligence) or otherwise) exceed that portion of
>> the amount paid by you which is fairly attributable to the Software and
>> fonts.
>> 
>> 7. Controlling Law and Severability.
>> This License shall be governed by and construed in accordance with the laws
>> of
>> the Federal Republic of Germany. If for any reason a court of competent
>> jurisdiction finds any provision of this License, or portion thereof, to be
>> unenforceable, that provision of the License shall be enforced to the maximum
>> extent permissible so as to effect the intent of the parties, and the
>> remainder of this License shall continue in full force and effect.
>> 
>> 8. Complete Agreement.
>> This License constitutes the entire agreement between the parties with
>> respect
>> to the use of the Software, the related documentation and fonts, and
>> supersedes all prior or contemporaneous understandings or agreements, written
>> or oral, regarding such subject matter. No amendment to or modification of
>> this License will be binding unless in writing and signed by a duly
>> authorized
>> representative of yellow tools.
>> Should you have any questions or comments concerning this license, please do
>> not hesitate to write to yellow tools GBR, Printzstrasse 4, 76139 Karlsruhe,
>> Germany. attn: Warranty Information. Email: info@....
> 
> 
> 
> ---------------------------------------------
> yellow tools
> Printzstr. 4
> D-76139 Karlsruhe
> Germany
> 
> fon: +49-721-62 73 89 01
> fax: +49-721-62 73 89 06
> 
> info@...
> www.yellowtools.de
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> To unsubscribe from this group, send a blank email to:
>  exs-users-unsubscribe@egroups.com
> For a list of places to get free samples please see:
>  http://groups.yahoo.com/group/exs-users/links/
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> 
> 
>

Christian, please ignore my last question. I didn't realize you had already
responded to a similar question in later posts. -Jer

> Hi Murray,
> 
>> It seems that there some confusion has arisen from the discussion here.
>> Absolutely no re-sampling or re-distribution of your samples has occurred.
>> That
>> would clearly be a violation of your IP rights - but, as I said,  it has not
>> occurred.  
> 
> Using the samples of the tryout versions within other applications is
> against the license agreement, because you are not allowed to create a new
> sampling library with it.
> 
>> You have put about 1% of the samples in each instrument up on your site and
>> we
>> EXS24 users -- including those on the PC platform have had a chance to try
>> them
>> out. I would suggest that this is all good publicity for your sample based
>> instruments.
> 
> We will offer the PC versions in a few weeks. Also there is absolutely no
> sense to use the samples with another sampler if we already give an
> optimized software instrument...
> 
>> If you had wished to keep your samples private you could have used a
>> non-standard format for them.  Your demos could have been closed by some
>> method
>> (encryption/non-standard formats) but your company (wisely in my view)  opted
>> to avoid this course.
> 
> All legal users complain about all the copy-protections with dongles, codes,
> hardware, keys, ... and also about one 9GB large file on their HDD.
> Sure we could have taken any kind of protection - and of course the final
> versions will have - but has the time already come where we have to protect
> even demo-versions and tryouts?
> We offer FREE tryouts with up to 145MB sounds included. You are allowed to
> use it even commercially. Take it, use it and enjoy it, but keep the license
> and do not transfer the samples to other applications!
> Best
> 
> Christian 
> 
> ---------------------------------------------
> yellow tools
> Printzstr. 4
> D-76139 Karlsruhe
> Germany
> 
> fon: +49-721-62 73 89 01
> fax: +49-721-62 73 89 06
> 
> info@...
> www.yellowtools.de
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> To unsubscribe from this group, send a blank email to:
>  exs-users-unsubscribe@egroups.com
> For a list of places to get free samples please see:
>  http://groups.yahoo.com/group/exs-users/links/
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> 
> 
>

Yeah, I guess I don't understand how this constitutes resampling either.
Regardless, it's obvious you don't approve of this process whether we have a
point or not, so I will have to let this aspiration go.

> Christian Hellinger wrote:
> 
>> 
>> Using the samples of the tryout versions within other applications is
>> against the license agreement, because you are not allowed to create a new
>> sampling library with it.
> 
> 
> Hmmm .. this gets complicated. I certainly hadn't thought of that as
> "resampling."
>

"Christian Hellinger (yellow tools)" <ch@...> wrote:

> Take it, use it and enjoy it, but keep the license
> and do not transfer the samples to other applications!
> Best
> 
> Christian 

I don't think you get it. The statement above is bizarre. It's like, "Here
try this, it's free and you use it in this free microwave, but if you put it
in your blender we'll have to sue you." Give me a freakin' break.

Are you going to come to my house and tell me I can't use the free demo
samples in my EXS24? If so, you are nuts. If you allow your samples to be
downloaded for free, you must deal with the consequences. End of story. You
can spout all the legal mumbo jumbo you want, but it won't make a
difference. You will not win this argument.

FYI,
I didn't download your samples and will not after reading your lame response
to this quandry.

teddybut

Christian Hellinger (yellow tools) wrote:
> "All unauthorised giving, trading, lending, renting, re-issuing,
> re-distribution or re-sale of this product or any of the sounds it
contains
> are expressly prohibited."

Nothing like this is (or was planned to be) happening through this group.

And also in Section 2.(Restrictions) of the Software License agreement....

>      "You may not modify, rent, lease, loan, distribute or create
derivative
> works
>      based upon the Software in whole or in part."

Again the same as above is true.

> As I'm sure you now understand, the distribution of these samples by
members
> of this list has to stop.

Nobody has planned to distribute any of your samples. So there's nothing
that has to be stopped.

All that was planned was to exchange EXS patches which are nothing else but
sample mapping information (so, the sampels would be the ones downloaded
from your site but wouldn't be redistributed at all).
I still can't see why this would be illegal at all.
A) I don't think you could prohibit the remapping of your samples in another
sampler to anybody. At least that would be quite new to me.
B) The actual EXS mapping isn't done by Yellow Tools, so it isn't your
intellectual property.
C) Just anybody could remap those sounds, and as said under A I don't thing
it could be prohibited.
.
IMO if a company doesn't like this, samples have to be distributed in a
proprietary format, just in the way, say, Spectrasonics do it.

Best,
Sascha

Christian Hellinger wrote:
> Using the samples of the tryout versions within other applications is
> against the license agreement, because you are not allowed to create a new
> sampling library with it.

Nobody is doing this either.
All that is happening is that your samples are loaded into the EXS and used
there. That's nop new sample library but using an existing one.

A (hopefully good) analogy:
Let's suppose you were doing an AKAI sample CD or whatever. IMO it would
just be impossible to prohibit using it in the EXS - regardless whether you
bought it or got it as a freebie.
Could you imagine a part of the licence agreement on an AKAI CD reading like
"You aren't allowed to load this CD into anything but an AKAI sampler"? I
certainly couldn't.
And it's really just the same - there's CDs that were especially made for
AKAI samplers, utilizing some features only existing on them (= your samples
are optimized for your instrument/s), yet any modern sampler will import
them in one way or the other.

> We will offer the PC versions in a few weeks. Also there is absolutely no
> sense to use the samples with another sampler if we already give an
> optimized software instrument...

Well, the EXS might not be as optimized as your instrument (I haven't even
tried it yet, still being on a 56k modem connect), but it offers other
options.

I still can't see how building my own EXS patches from your samples would
infringe any copyright or licence agreement.
If you'd say people would not be allowed to use those samples in any sort of
a commercial context, all OK with me.
And of course redistribution isn't allowed at all.
But I can't see how reusing those samples in anything else but your
instrument would (or even could) infringe any laws. Just to imagine the
worst case: I doubt you'd win any sort of lawsuit if someone would do so.

In the end, IMO if people would use your samples in other samplers that'd
just be a nice free advertising. If they like those limited versions they
may as well get another of your products.

Anyways, fortunately I don't have to care about that any longer until my DSL
line finally is established.

Cheers,
Sascha

I couldn't agree more. -Jer

> All that was planned was to exchange EXS patches which are nothing else but
> sample mapping information (so, the sampels would be the ones downloaded
> from your site but wouldn't be redistributed at all).
> I still can't see why this would be illegal at all.
> A) I don't think you could prohibit the remapping of your samples in another
> sampler to anybody. At least that would be quite new to me.
> B) The actual EXS mapping isn't done by Yellow Tools, so it isn't your
> intellectual property.
> C) Just anybody could remap those sounds, and as said under A I don't thing
> it could be prohibited.
> .
> IMO if a company doesn't like this, samples have to be distributed in a
> proprietary format, just in the way, say, Spectrasonics do it.
> 
> Best,
> Sascha

Further more, if this were true, CDXtract and Translator would have been
sued into oblivion by now. I think this case is baseless, and Christian
should reconsider his position on the matter, or rather reverse his verbal
opinion. Nothing that originated from his company is traded with anyone. The
more I think about it, the more silly the argument seems to me. I don't
think you'd have a case in hell on this one my friend, much less on earth. I
don't usually write in such a cocky manner, but the more I've thought of it
(especially considering translation software availability) the more silly
the argument is. If you've been on this list for long, you know that EXS
patches created by list members (which in this case are never the property
of the sample owners) are traded all the time here provided they are not
exchanged with the samples attached. To quote Charlie Brown, "Good grief!"
-Jer

> I still can't see how building my own EXS patches from your samples would
> infringe any copyright or licence agreement.
> If you'd say people would not be allowed to use those samples in any sort of
> a commercial context, all OK with me.
> And of course redistribution isn't allowed at all.
> But I can't see how reusing those samples in anything else but your
> instrument would (or even could) infringe any laws. Just to imagine the
> worst case: I doubt you'd win any sort of lawsuit if someone would do so.

> Hey teddybut,
> 
> Although you may not like Christian's response, would it be better if he
> hadn't written at all? That's what I fear will happen if you describe
> someone's posting as 'lame', 'mumbo jumbo', and call them 'nuts'. I respect
> that you might like to talk 'straight', but I would rather our exchanges be
> a bit less hot, if only to keep all kinds of people interested and
> _participating_ in our group.
> 
> Ned

Well put. Very good point.

Sorry.

I will try to curtail my passion for the pursuit of truth and use words that
won't offend potentially helpful vendors. This kind of stuff just gets my
blood boiling so much it hurts.

ouch,
Teddybut

Christian Hellinger wrote:

>  > Using the samples of the tryout versions within other applications is
>>  against the license agreement, because you are not allowed to create a new
>  > sampling library with it.

Just out of interest, why does this bother you?

I'm not trying to be rude, just trying to understand your position.
-- 

Nick Batzdorf
818/905-9101, fax -5434, cell 818/601-4874

> teddybut wrote:
> 
>> I will try to curtail my passion for the pursuit of truth and use words that
>> won't offend potentially helpful vendors.

Ned Bouhalassa wrote:

> Hey TB,
> 
> Don't curtail too much! Passion is welcomed here, I'm sure, as are your
> insights and tips. ;-)

don't worry, you did no harm. I took it gracefully...

you want gratuities now? he he

tbut