EXS 24 Logic Sampler Users Group

Hi,

I will offer any free Scarbee library  (see www.scarbee.com) if you 
can help me with this:

I'm currently converting my bass libs from Giga to EXS24 mk II.
In the Giga version I have a special Bass string program, which is 
like this:

Midichannel 1: E-string
Midichannel 2: A-string
Midichannel 3: D-string
Midichannel 4: G-string

How can I do this with EXS24 mk II?

regards

T.H.S.
www.scarbee.com

Thomas wrote:
>I'm currently converting my bass libs from Giga to EXS24 mk II.
>In the Giga version I have a special Bass string program, which is
>like this:
>
>Midichannel 1: E-string
>Midichannel 2: A-string
>Midichannel 3: D-string
>Midichannel 4: G-string
>
>How can I do this with EXS24 mk II?

There's a basic problem in concept to address here first. Even in the 
Giga version, how do you play this instrument live?
You could set up a split on a controller keyboard that sends MIDI 
channel 1 from E1 to G#1 (for the E-string), then MIDI channel 2 from 
A1 to C#2 (for the A-string) and so on.

But that means that you never play higher than the 4th fret except 
perhaps on the G-string. Not how most bass players would work.

Now, if your program does in fact extend up the fretboard on each 
string by at least an octave (12th fret) you'd have to play your bass 
part live on one MIDI channel, and then re-organise all your 
notes/MIDI channels to move up and down the fretboard as you choose.

If this is the case, you might as well just set up 4 x EXS24 mkII 
(one for each string) and program accordingly.

There is one other option perhaps, that uses a new feature I just 
discovered while trying out the Vienna Symphonic Library demo CD. One 
of their programs makes use of Keyswitching, which I believe is a new 
feature in EXS24 mkII. In case you don't know about it (I didn't!), 
certain keys in an EXS instrument (usually chosen to be outside the 
playable range of the instrument) are defined so that they select 
different groups of samples. In the case of a bass, you can use the 
high keys. So, you could set C8 to select the E-string samples, D8 to 
select the A-string and so on. After you press D8 once, the new set 
of samples plays. Your sets of samples lie parallel on the keyboard 
as if they were velocity switchable, but actually Keyswitchable.

In this way, with a bit of manoeuvering, you could actually play your 
whole instrument live using only one MIDI channel plus keyswitches.

Hope this long-winded post makes sense.......

Regards - Colin

--- In exs-users@yahoogroups.com, Colin Shapiro <musos@i...> wrote:

> 
> There is one other option perhaps, that uses a new feature I just 
> discovered while trying out the Vienna Symphonic Library demo CD. One 
> of their programs makes use of Keyswitching, which I believe is a new 
> feature in EXS24 mkII. In case you don't know about it (I didn't!), 
> certain keys in an EXS instrument (usually chosen to be outside the 
> playable range of the instrument) are defined so that they select 
> different groups of samples. In the case of a bass, you can use the 
> high keys. So, you could set C8 to select the E-string samples, D8 to 
> select the A-string and so on. After you press D8 once, the new set 
> of samples plays. Your sets of samples lie parallel on the keyboard 
> as if they were velocity switchable, but actually Keyswitchable.

Hi Colin, 

I can't see how to do this.  Where do you define the key to switch groups?

Larry Pink

--- In exs-users@yahoogroups.com, Colin Shapiro <musos@i...> wrote:
> 
> There is one other option perhaps, that uses a new feature I just 
> discovered while trying out the Vienna Symphonic Library demo CD. One 
> of their programs makes use of Keyswitching, which I believe is a new 
> feature in EXS24 mkII. In case you don't know about it (I didn't!), 
> certain keys in an EXS instrument (usually chosen to be outside the 
> playable range of the instrument) are defined so that they select 
> different groups of samples. In the case of a bass, you can use the 
> high keys. So, you could set C8 to select the E-string samples, D8 to 
> select the A-string and so on. After you press D8 once, the new set 
> of samples plays. Your sets of samples lie parallel on the keyboard 
> as if they were velocity switchable, but actually Keyswitchable.
> 

Hi Colin,

Sorry, I forgot to change the subject line in my previous post.

I can't see how to do this.  Where do you define the key to switch groups?
And can someone explain the modulation routing 'Relative Volume (Auto Adjust)?
I can't seem to find it in the documentation.
Thanks.

Larry Pink

Larry wrote:
>I can't see how to do this.  Where do you define the key to switch groups?

I'm no expert on this but it seems to work like this:
Select the Zones you want and assign them to a Group.
Set the Group as follows:
Trigger on <Key Down>
Select by <Note:> <C0>

Select the next set of Zones and assign to a new Group.
Set this group as above but <Note:> <C#0>

Now when you press C0 the first set of Zones will play.
After you press C#0, the 2nd set of Zones will play.

If anyone can add info to this, please go ahead. I just tried it 
using 2 sets of identical Zones, but I tuned the one set a semitone 
up. By keyswitching, I can hear the pitch change, so it works.

Hope this helps
Colin

>Sorry, I forgot to change the subject line in my previous post.

and I only noticed it later.
See my other post.....

--- In exs-users@yahoogroups.com, Colin Shapiro 
<musos@i...> wrote:
> Larry wrote:
> >I can't see how to do this.  Where do you define the key to 
switch groups?
> 
> I'm no expert on this but it seems to work like this:
> Select the Zones you want and assign them to a Group.
> Set the Group as follows:
> Trigger on <Key Down>
> Select by <Note:> <C0>
> 
> Select the next set of Zones and assign to a new Group.
> Set this group as above but <Note:> <C#0>
> 
> Now when you press C0 the first set of Zones will play.
> After you press C#0, the 2nd set of Zones will play.
> 
> If anyone can add info to this, please go ahead. I just tried it 
> using 2 sets of identical Zones, but I tuned the one set a 
semitone up. By keyswitching, I can hear the pitch change, so it 
works.
> 
> Hope this helps
> Colin


Why not just assign the zones for each string to its own octave 
on the keyboard as well as their own group? Each group can be 
set to playback only one voice. 

A cool feature idea: if you play two notes assigned to the same 
string (octave/group) and the higher note is more than a minor 
third higher, that note would automatically be triggered using the 
next highest string (or vice versa if you are playing from one of 
the higher octaves. This could actuate playing in a specific finger 
postiions on the fretboard. So, let's say that you're pedalling an 
"A" on the low "E" string (fifth fret), if you play a C# or D, it is the 
"A" string that would be triggered. 

In practical implementation terms I think this means that when a 
2nd note is triggered within a monphonic group, a note in the 
next highest/lowest group would be triggered.

-Matt

--- In exs-users@yahoogroups.com, Colin Shapiro <musos@i...> wrote:

> I'm no expert on this but it seems to work like this:
> Select the Zones you want and assign them to a Group.
> Set the Group as follows:
> Trigger on <Key Down>
> Select by <Note:> <C0>
> 
> Select the next set of Zones and assign to a new Group.
> Set this group as above but <Note:> <C#0>
> 
> Now when you press C0 the first set of Zones will play.
> After you press C#0, the 2nd set of Zones will play.

I'm using EXS mkII but there is no 'trigger on' parameter, or 
'select by" parameter anywhere that I can see.
Are you using EXSP?

Larry

Go to modulation and select megatrigger.

Set modulation 1 to "Switch key" and select the key range: lo/hi (C0=24)
then select AND "modulation 1" (second field)

  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: larry pink <old_lar2001@...> 
  To: exs-users@yahoogroups.com 
  Sent: Tuesday, January 14, 2003 8:50 PM
  Subject: Re: [exs] Key Switching


  --- In exs-users@yahoogroups.com, Colin Shapiro <musos@i...> wrote:

  > I'm no expert on this but it seems to work like this:
  > Select the Zones you want and assign them to a Group.
  > Set the Group as follows:
  > Trigger on <Key Down>
  > Select by <Note:> <C0>
  > 
  > Select the next set of Zones and assign to a new Group.
  > Set this group as above but <Note:> <C#0>
  > 
  > Now when you press C0 the first set of Zones will play.
  > After you press C#0, the 2nd set of Zones will play.

  I'm using EXS mkII but there is no 'trigger on' parameter, or 
  'select by" parameter anywhere that I can see.
  Are you using EXSP?

  Larry





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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Thoughts from the mind of larry pink <old_lar2001@...>, 14-01-2003:

>I'm using EXS mkII but there is no 'trigger on' parameter, or
>'select by" parameter anywhere that I can see.
>Are you using EXSP?

In the Instrument Editor's View menu, check "view all".  Then open a 
group, and you'll see all apraemetr sinall their glory, inclduing 
'select by' and 'trigger on'.  And yes, this is in the EXS-mkII.


-- 
Hendrik Jan Veenstra  <h@...>
Omega Art: http://www.omega-art.com

--- In exs-users@yahoogroups.com, Hendrik Jan Veenstra <h@k...> wrote:
> Thoughts from the mind of larry pink <old_lar2001@y...>, 14-01-2003:
> 
> >I'm using EXS mkII but there is no 'trigger on' parameter, or
> >'select by" parameter anywhere that I can see.
> >Are you using EXSP?
> 
> In the Instrument Editor's View menu, check "view all".  Then open a 
> group, and you'll see all apraemetr sinall their glory, inclduing 
> 'select by' and 'trigger on'.  And yes, this is in the EXS-mkII.
> 

Thank you Hendrik.  I should have seen that.
Just while I have your attention -am I correct in assuming that
'relative volume' in the modulation routings is control #11 (expression)?
Also, can you explain  "relative vol. (auto adjust)"?
I appreciate your time.

Larry Pink

Thoughts from the mind of larry pink <old_lar2001@...>, 14-01-2003:

>--- In exs-users@yahoogroups.com, Hendrik Jan Veenstra <h@k...> wrote:
>>  Thoughts from the mind of larry pink <old_lar2001@y...>, 14-01-2003:
>>
>>  >I'm using EXS mkII but there is no 'trigger on' parameter, or
>>  >'select by" parameter anywhere that I can see.
>>  >Are you using EXSP?
>>
>>  In the Instrument Editor's View menu, check "view all".  Then open a
>  > group, and you'll see all apraemetr sinall their glory, inclduing
>  > 'select by' and 'trigger on'.  And yes, this is in the EXS-mkII.

"all apraemetr sinall their glory"???  What had I been drinking?? :)

>Thank you Hendrik.  I should have seen that.

Some things are just _too_ obvious to be seen...

>Just while I have your attention -am I correct in assuming that
>'relative volume' in the modulation routings is control #11 (expression)?

No.  Relative volume is an EXS destination parameter -- i.e. an 
EXS-thingie, which has nothing to do per se with MIDI controllers. 
The source parameters are the MIDI controllers and such.  So CC11 is 
a Source thing, which _can_ be routed to the EXS's relative volume. 
However, you can also route your modulation wheel (CC1) to relative 
volume...

Here's a thing to try: set Dest=Rel.volume, Src=Ctrl#1  Set the green 
triangle on the mini slider to the right of the mod matrix parameters 
to halfway up (e.g. to +18 dB).  Play a note on your controller.  Now 
slowly turn up the modwheel while keeping the key pressed down: 
you'll get a volume increase.  So, yes, in a sense Relative Volume 
acts like its MIDI counterpart Expression.

>Also, can you explain  "relative vol. (auto adjust)"?

Take the above scenario, and suppose you set the green triangle to 18 
dB.  Then playing without any modwheel will give the original patch's 
volume, while turning up the modwheel all the way will give a volume 
+18dB up.

Now change the Destination to "Rel Vol (auto adjust)".  Again play 
the patch without any modwheel: I have the impression the patch is 
now played 18 dB softer, so that turning the modwheel all the way up 
gives you the original volume back.

So RelVol gives you (relatively) 0 to 18 dB, while the auto adjust 
version gives -18 to 0 dB.  Or at least it's something close to 
this...

-- 
Hendrik Jan Veenstra  <h@...>
Omega Art: http://www.omega-art.com

--- In exs-users@yahoogroups.com, Hendrik Jan Veenstra <h@k...> wrote:
> Thoughts from the mind of larry pink <old_lar2001@y...>, 14-01-2003:
> 
> >Just while I have your attention -am I correct in assuming that
> >'relative volume' in the modulation routings is control #11 (expression)?
> 
> No.  Relative volume is an EXS destination parameter -- i.e. an 
> EXS-thingie, which has nothing to do per se with MIDI controllers. 
> The source parameters are the MIDI controllers and such.  So CC11 is 
> a Source thing, which _can_ be routed to the EXS's relative volume. 
> However, you can also route your modulation wheel (CC1) to relative 
> volume...
> 
Yes, I understand that.

> Here's a thing to try: set Dest=Rel.volume, Src=Ctrl#1  Set the green 
> triangle on the mini slider to the right of the mod matrix parameters 
> to halfway up (e.g. to +18 dB).  Play a note on your controller.  Now 
> slowly turn up the modwheel while keeping the key pressed down: 
> you'll get a volume increase.  So, yes, in a sense Relative Volume 
> acts like its MIDI counterpart Expression.

I've used the mod wheel to control volume  on my hardware synths
for years. You expect to see cc11 as a mod destination. It's easy to forget the EXS is an audio instrument.
 
> >Also, can you explain  "relative vol. (auto adjust)"?
> 
> Take the above scenario, and suppose you set the green triangle to 18 
> dB.  Then playing without any modwheel will give the original patch's 
> volume, while turning up the modwheel all the way will give a volume 
> +18dB up.
> 
> Now change the Destination to "Rel Vol (auto adjust)".  Again play 
> the patch without any modwheel: I have the impression the patch is 
> now played 18 dB softer, so that turning the modwheel all the way up 
> gives you the original volume back.
> 
> So RelVol gives you (relatively) 0 to 18 dB, while the auto adjust 
> version gives -18 to 0 dB.  Or at least it's something close to 
> this...
> 
Yes, of course.  Thanks again.

Larry Pink

Has anybody had a chance to compare any of the Vienna library head to head 
against Garritan yet? If so, how do they rate? And for that matter, how do 
either of them rate against the Siedleczek or Vitous libraries?  Now that 
all of this stuff is so easy to integrate into EXS24, we're probably about 
due for a full roundup.

Sean McCoy
Oregon Sound Recording

Sean McCoy wrote:
>Has anybody had a chance to compare any of the Vienna library head to head
>against Garritan yet? If so, how do they rate? And for that matter, how do
>either of them rate against the Siedleczek or Vitous libraries?  Now that
>all of this stuff is so easy to integrate into EXS24, we're probably about
>due for a full roundup.

I've been following the VSL (Vienna Symphonic Library) forum for a 
while, and folks who have bought VSL (Giga version) seem very 
impressed. The EXS24 version isn't out yet, but should be ready 
fairly soon.

You could eavesdrop here:
http://vsl.co.at/forum_pop.html

Regards - Colin

Just got the new disk streaming update to Kontact from the NI site and have
been running it head to head with EXS24. Streaming seems to work quite well
on PC in Logic 5.5. 

It falls behind the EXS24 still in some departments:

-- Giga imports are inferior to the EXS24 -- key switching is not converted
properly.

-- The instrument editor can't seem to cope with displaying large sample
sets. EXS24 instrument editor has facilities like automapping that put it
in front still in important areas.

Sound quality: I tested some sample sets where every note is sampled -- the
sound quality of Kontact seems indistinguishable from that of the EXS24 Mk
II  when running the same sample set head to head.

Filters -- large variety of filters and FX are built into Kontact. Sound
pretty decent to me -- as do the Emagic filters. 

Advantages of Kontact are:

1.  that it works standalone -- you can put it on another machine(s) and
get another 16 channels of sampling. Using it in a host like Chainer or
V-stack (when it supports midi routing) will be very useful. 

2.  Not tied to Logic and it works cross platform. PC development path of
EXS24 would appear to be at an end -- ( we can still hope not I guess )

3. Extensive sound mangling possibilities.  

I believe the crossgrade offer has been extended till the end of Feb.

Regards,
Murray

At 01:37 PM 1/24/2003, you wrote:
>Has anybody had a chance to compare any of the Vienna library head to head
>against Garritan yet? If so, how do they rate? And for that matter, how do
>either of them rate against the Siedleczek or Vitous libraries?  Now that
>all of this stuff is so easy to integrate into EXS24, we're probably about
>due for a full roundup.

Remember that Mark from ILIO mentioned a while back that the Vienna team 
was working with Emagic to add some new features into EXS... The native EXS 
version of the Vienna sample library might support some extra features not 
available when playing a Giga-imported version in EXS?

Jeremy

Jeremy Martin wrote: 
>
> Remember that Mark from ILIO mentioned a while back that the Vienna team 
> was working with Emagic to add some new features into EXS... The native EXS 
> version of the Vienna sample library might support some extra features not 
> available when playing a Giga-imported version in EXS?


Hi Jeremy, 

I would say ... possibly. 

Not everything from Giga format instruments makes it across, but this is
largely because EXS24 lacks features that Giga supports. If EXS24 can match the
feature (keyswitching, crossfades, release samples etc) a decent translation
should be possible -- either with the EXS24's inbuilt converter or aftermarket
utilities. 

As anyone who read Skarbee's posts recently would expect, my guess is that the
developers are in Emagic's ear to improve the capabilities of the EXS24 so they
can deliver the same features the Giga libraries have. 

If the EXS24 and Kontact can match the feature set of Gigasampler I think they
will severely dent sales of Gigastudio. Version 3.0 of Giga may be shown at
Musicmesse - delivering handling of 24 bit samples and other overdue features.
Three years with no significant improvements is a bad indicator of the future
prospects of Nemesys.

Regards,
Murray

Murray wrote:
>If EXS24 can match the
>feature (keyswitching, crossfades, release samples etc) a decent translation
>should be possible

Um...EXS24 can do keyswitching, and crossfades, and release samples......

Regards - Colin

How does it do release sampling?! (where's the button?)

That would make it possible for me to create an EXS PipeOrgan with authentic
(acoustic) reverb(key-up release sample)

Can it do the releaseportion of the Giga Sonic Implant stringslibrary?

That would be something..=)

Cheers,

Nick

From: Colin Shapiro <musos@...>
Reply-To: exs-users@yahoogroups.com
Date: Sun, 26 Jan 2003 23:00:14 +0200
To: exs-users@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [exs] Latest String Libraries


Murray wrote:
>If EXS24 can match the
>feature (keyswitching, crossfades, release samples etc) a decent translation
>should be possible

Um...EXS24 can do keyswitching, and crossfades, and release samples......

Regards - Colin

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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

At 11:00 PM 1/26/03 +0200, you wrote: 
>
> Murray wrote:
> >If EXS24 can match the
> >feature (keyswitching, crossfades, release samples etc) a decent translation
> >should be possible
>
> Um...EXS24 can do keyswitching, and crossfades, and release samples......


Well yes and no -- EXS24 does all those things in it's own way BUT its
capabilities in those areas are not as extensive as those of GigaStudio -- it
can't always replicate the structure of the instrument which means some
failures in translation aren't just an inadequate converter routine. See
Skarbee's posts of  a week or so ago for an idea of the limitations he came up
against. There is also the rather strange thing that a crossfade with a
controller is not possible when you also want velocity switching and two kinds
of crossfading at once (eg by velocity and by contoller #x) are impossible. 

Regards,
Murray

Murray wrote:
>Well yes and no -- EXS24 does all those things in it's own way BUT its
>capabilities in those areas are not as extensive as those of GigaStudio -- it
>can't always replicate the structure of the instrument which means some
>failures in translation aren't just an inadequate converter routine. See
>Skarbee's posts of  a week or so ago for an idea of the limitations he came up
>against. There is also the rather strange thing that a crossfade with a
>controller is not possible when you also want velocity switching and two kinds
>of crossfading at once (eg by velocity and by contoller #x) are impossible.

Okay, I wasn't aware of all of that.
It really would be good if someone from Emagic would post here to 
clarify some points.
Anyone on the list have a hot connection?

Regards - Colin