Korg Poly800/EX800 Users

Hi guys,

since this is my first post to the group, maybe I should introduce  
myself.
My name is Alex, and I'm from London, in the UK. The Kork Poly-800  
was my first 'proper' synthesizer, bought 2nd-hand in 1993. Although  
I was initially disappointed it didn't have lots of knobs and sliders  
on it (I stupidly bought it 'blind' without even seeing any pictures  
of it), I've grown to love it's sound and little idiosyncrasies over  
the years. I picked up an EX-800 a few years ago, but it had been  
languishing unused in my rack until I installed Mike's excellent  
Hawk-800 mod a couple of weeks ago. Now I can see it's going to get a  
lot of use!

a|x

Of course, my previous email was the preamble to something else,  
which I forget actually to include. I have a notoriously poor memory,  
so this doesn't surprise me...

Sequencer Enhancement Idea:
Two ideas, really. Don't know how practical either is, but one, or  
both, would be very cool.

1. A dedicated '303-style' bassline sequencer mode.
Switching to this mode would automatically drop the current sound  
into Portamento Mono mode, and set the filter envelope to a simple  
Attack Decay mode (which could be done by overiding the patch's  
existing Breakpoint, Slope and Sustain settings). In addition, this  
new mode would allow slide notes to be added to the current sequencer  
step with a special keypress. This would slide from the previous note  
to the current one. Also, you'd be able to add accents to the current  
note by pressing another keypad key. Accented notes wouldn't  
necessarily have to be louder, but I'd envisage them (as in the  
tb-303), having a tighter filter envelope decay, increased filter  
env.mod, and maybe slightly higher resonance and cutoff values.
It might also be cool to add the accent function outlined above to an  
additional Bassline key mode, so that note velocities above a  
settable threshold would trigger the accent effect.
In either case, you'd be able to set the accent amount.

2. A more generalised ability to record arbitrary parameter settings  
per-sequencer-step. In this mode, any edits made to parameter  
settings while in sequencer write mode would be recorded with the  
current step, and would be played-back at the same time as any notes  
recorded. This would allow all kinds of cool sequenced timbral  
effects, especially is the ability to record just parameter-changes  
(and no note data) was added. That way, you could play any notes you  
wanted, and have the synth parameters automated by the sequencer.


I realise both these options (but particularly the 2nd one) would  
greatly increase the memory demands of the sequencer, so I'd be  
perfectly willing to accept a cut in the number of available  
sequencer steps from the current 256 to, say, 32, or even 16, if this  
helps at all.


Anyone any thoughts on whether the above would be desirable? I'm  
aware that the Poly/EX-800 is never going to make a particularly  
convincing tb-303 emulator, but the Slide and Accent features of the  
original bassline box still sound amazing, even when applied to a  
different basic sound. Option 2 is admittedly a little more  
ambitious, but if it's possible, would open up all kinds of cool  
possibilities.

Cheers guys,

a|x

On Tue, 11 Nov 2008, Alex Drinkwater wrote:

> 1. A dedicated '303-style' bassline sequencer mode.
==============

using an MC-202 to sequence external gear via CV/gate has always been a 
cool trick...

doing that doesn't require mods to a half-baked sequencer, though. a good 
303 emulation can be done simply with a key-on legato (not sure if that's 
the proper term) and proper routing of velocity to "accent" (with whatever 
you want to assign to accent, and just use two velocity values to control 
accent off and accent on).

so if the hawk-800 has a key-on legato feature (should be easy if it 
doesn't already have it?) then you can get a 303 behavior out it... but 
don't count on 303 sounds. it would probably sound more like using an 
MC-202 to control CV/gate gear... but with the addition of an accent 
feature.

the same trick works on plenty of other synths, ranging from the casio 
CZ-101 (but only the CZ-1 deals with velocity/accent) to some of the 
better hardware 303 emulators.


-- 
         ...atom

  ________________________
  http://atom.smasher.org/
  762A 3B98 A3C3 96C9 C6B7 582A B88D 52E4 D9F5 7808
  -------------------------------------------------

 	"This is a bit more than a vote."
 		-- Oilman Roger Tamraz, explaining why he never
 		bothered to vote, but did give $300,000 to the
 		Democratic Party. For his contribution, Tamraz
 		got a personal meeting with President Clinton,
 		at which he promoted his Caspian Sea pipeline
 		scheme.
 	(Testimony to Senate Governmental Affairs Committee, 9/18/1997)

Hiya!

--- On Tue, 11/11/08, Atom Smasher <atom@...> wrote:

> From: Atom Smasher <atom@...>
> Subject: Re: [korgpolyex] Hawk-800 Feature Idea
> To: korgpolyex@yahoogroups.com
> Date: Tuesday, 11 November, 2008, 7:59 PM
> On Tue, 11 Nov 2008, Alex Drinkwater wrote:
> 
> > 1. A dedicated '303-style' bassline sequencer
> mode.
> ==============
> 
> using an MC-202 to sequence external gear via CV/gate has
> always been a 
> cool trick...
> 
> doing that doesn't require mods to a half-baked
> sequencer, though. a good 
> 303 emulation can be done simply with a key-on legato (not
> sure if that's 
> the proper term) and proper routing of velocity to
> "accent" (with whatever 
> you want to assign to accent, and just use two velocity
> values to control 
> accent off and accent on).
> 
> so if the hawk-800 has a key-on legato feature (should be
> easy if it 
> doesn't already have it?) then you can get a 303
> behavior out it... but 
> don't count on 303 sounds. it would probably sound more
> like using an 
> MC-202 to control CV/gate gear... but with the addition of
> an accent 
> feature.
> 
> the same trick works on plenty of other synths, ranging
> from the casio 
> CZ-101 (but only the CZ-1 deals with velocity/accent) to
> some of the 
> better hardware 303 emulators.

All true. The Hawk mod does have a 'Portamento Mono' mode, which is essentially a legato effect, as you describe, with automatic portamento between overlapping notes. It's very cool. There's no equivalent to the 'accent' effect though, but I can't imagine it being massively difficult to add. Mike would know more about that though..

The only problem with Portamanento Mono mode is that you can't really use it with the builtin sequencer, as (as far as I know), you can't record overlapping notes. You CAN make a note longer than one step, but you can't make notes actually everlap (ie force a note not to retrigger while another note is added at the next step), so there's no way to actually get that slide effect with the sequencer.

Incidentally, as I said, I'm not looking to reinvent the wheel, it's just I think the 303 has a couple of nice features that would also be cool to add to the Poly/EX-800.

a|x

PS
I'm uploading an example of the current Hawk mod Portamento Mono mode in use, sequenced from an d recorded in Ableton Live, with realtime control-tweaking from my Novation XStation controller.

> 
> 
> -- 
>          ...atom
> 
>   ________________________
>   http://atom.smasher.org/
>   762A 3B98 A3C3 96C9 C6B7 582A B88D 52E4 D9F5 7808
>   -------------------------------------------------
> 
>  	"This is a bit more than a vote."
>  		-- Oilman Roger Tamraz, explaining why he never
>  		bothered to vote, but did give $300,000 to the
>  		Democratic Party. For his contribution, Tamraz
>  		got a personal meeting with President Clinton,
>  		at which he promoted his Caspian Sea pipeline
>  		scheme.
>  	(Testimony to Senate Governmental Affairs Committee,
> 9/18/1997)
> 
> 
> 
> ------------------------------------
> 
> Yahoo! Groups Links
> 
> 
>

On Tue, 11 Nov 2008, Alex Drinkwater wrote:

> All true. The Hawk mod does have a 'Portamento Mono' mode, which is 
> essentially a legato effect, as you describe, with automatic portamento 
> between overlapping notes. It's very cool. There's no equivalent to the 
> 'accent' effect though, but I can't imagine it being massively difficult 
> to add. Mike would know more about that though..
============

if you can route velocity to DCA/DCF/etc then you can have your accent.

just program a sequence that only uses velocity "1" for no accent and 
velocity "127" for accent.


> The only problem with Portamanento Mono mode is that you can't really 
> use it with the builtin sequencer,
==================

i wouldn't consider that a lack of feature... maybe more a lack of 
external sequencer?


> I'm uploading an example of the current Hawk mod Portamento Mono mode in 
> use, sequenced from an d recorded in Ableton Live, with realtime 
> control-tweaking from my Novation XStation controller.
======================

if you're running it from abelton, forget that the poly even has a built 
in sequencer. really.


-- 
         ...atom

  ________________________
  http://atom.smasher.org/
  762A 3B98 A3C3 96C9 C6B7 582A B88D 52E4 D9F5 7808
  -------------------------------------------------

 	"We really haven't done everything we could to protect our
 	 customers... Our products just aren't engineered for security"
 		-- Brian Valentine,
 		Senior Vice President of Microsoft, Windows Division

On Tue, 11 Nov 2008, Alex Drinkwater wrote:

> I'm uploading an example of the current Hawk mod Portamento Mono mode in 
> use, sequenced from an d recorded in Ableton Live, with realtime 
> control-tweaking from my Novation XStation controller.
========================

damn!!! i can't believe that's coming from a poly-800!!!!

just add some velocity "accent" and you can not just emulate a 303, but go 
beyond a basic 303 sound.


-- 
         ...atom

  ________________________
  http://atom.smasher.org/
  762A 3B98 A3C3 96C9 C6B7 582A B88D 52E4 D9F5 7808
  -------------------------------------------------

 	"The liberty of a democracy is not safe if the people
 	 tolerate the growth of private power to a point
 	 where it becomes stronger than the democratic state
 	 itself. That in its essence is fascism: ownership of
 	 government by an individual, by a group or any
 	 controlling private power."
 		-- Franklin Roosevelt

Atom Smasher wrote:

> just add some velocity "accent" and you can not just emulate a 303, but go 
> beyond a basic 303 sound.

Bear in mind that a real 303 also slows down the attack portion of the 
filter envelope when accent is on, as you increase the resonance.

That's why the resonance pot has a double track - one half provides 
feedback around the filter, the other varies the time constant of an RC 
circuit formed by C13/VR4/R46 so that as the resonance is increased, the 
attack is lagged by C13 giving the distinctive 303 "weoow".  It's damn 
near impossible to emulate on other synths ;-)  In fact, only 303 clones 
and one 303 softsynth get it nearly right...

Gordon

On 11 Nov 2008, at 21:07, Atom Smasher wrote:

> On Tue, 11 Nov 2008, Alex Drinkwater wrote:
>
>> All true. The Hawk mod does have a 'Portamento Mono' mode, which is
>> essentially a legato effect, as you describe, with automatic  
>> portamento
>> between overlapping notes. It's very cool. There's no equivalent to  
>> the
>> 'accent' effect though, but I can't imagine it being massively  
>> difficult
>> to add. Mike would know more about that though..
> ============
>
> if you can route velocity to DCA/DCF/etc then you can have your  
> accent.
>
> just program a sequence that only uses velocity "1" for no accent and
> velocity "127" for accent.

My thoughts exactly. Currently, you can't, however.

>> The only problem with Portamanento Mono mode is that you can't really
>> use it with the builtin sequencer,
> ==================
>
> i wouldn't consider that a lack of feature... maybe more a lack of
> external sequencer?

I just like the idea of being able to sequence basslines on the EX-800  
itself. Like the original 303, it forces you to think in a different  
way, and gets you away from the screen for a while.
And, since the Hawk mod is all about extending the synth in different  
ways, I still think it would make a worthwhile addition.

Also, the more complex idea of making the sequencer capable of  
recording arbitrary parameter-changes would be even cooler, in my  
opinion.

a|x

>
>> I'm uploading an example of the current Hawk mod Portamento Mono  
>> mode in
>> use, sequenced from an d recorded in Ableton Live, with realtime
>> control-tweaking from my Novation XStation controller.
> ======================
>
> if you're running it from abelton, forget that the poly even has a  
> built
> in sequencer. really.
>
>
> -- 
>         ...atom
>
>  ________________________
>  http://atom.smasher.org/
>  762A 3B98 A3C3 96C9 C6B7 582A B88D 52E4 D9F5 7808
>  -------------------------------------------------
>
> 	"We really haven't done everything we could to protect our
> 	 customers... Our products just aren't engineered for security"
> 		-- Brian Valentine,
> 		Senior Vice President of Microsoft, Windows Division
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>

--- On Tue, 11/11/08, Atom Smasher <atom@...> wrote:

> From: Atom Smasher <atom@...>
> Subject: Re: [korgpolyex] Hawk-800 Feature Idea
> To: korgpolyex@yahoogroups.com
> Date: Tuesday, 11 November, 2008, 9:11 PM
> On Tue, 11 Nov 2008, Alex Drinkwater wrote:
> 
> > I'm uploading an example of the current Hawk mod
> Portamento Mono mode in 
> > use, sequenced from an d recorded in Ableton Live,
> with realtime 
> > control-tweaking from my Novation XStation controller.
> ========================
> 
> damn!!! i can't believe that's coming from a
> poly-800!!!!
> 
> just add some velocity "accent" and you can not
> just emulate a 303, but go 
> beyond a basic 303 sound.

Exactly- which is why an accent feature would be the icing on the cake for me :D

Incidentally, I did manage to come quite close to this sound with my unmodded Poly-800 some years ago (the example was an EX-800).

I'll upload another example file :D

a|x

> 
> 
> -- 
>          ...atom
> 
>   ________________________
>   http://atom.smasher.org/
>   762A 3B98 A3C3 96C9 C6B7 582A B88D 52E4 D9F5 7808
>   -------------------------------------------------
> 
>  	"The liberty of a democracy is not safe if the
> people
>  	 tolerate the growth of private power to a point
>  	 where it becomes stronger than the democratic state
>  	 itself. That in its essence is fascism: ownership of
>  	 government by an individual, by a group or any
>  	 controlling private power."
>  		-- Franklin Roosevelt
> 
> 
> 
> ------------------------------------
> 
> Yahoo! Groups Links
> 
> 
>

On Tue, 11 Nov 2008, Gordon JC Pearce MM3YEQ wrote:

> Bear in mind that a real 303 also slows down the attack portion of the 
> filter envelope when accent is on, as you increase the resonance.
>
> That's why the resonance pot has a double track - one half provides 
> feedback around the filter, the other varies the time constant of an RC 
> circuit formed by C13/VR4/R46 so that as the resonance is increased, the 
> attack is lagged by C13 giving the distinctive 303 "weoow".  It's damn 
> near impossible to emulate on other synths ;-)  In fact, only 303 clones 
> and one 303 softsynth get it nearly right...
=================

which is why i'd say, don't try to emulate a 303, as such, with any other 
synth. but... if you can get everything else in place, it does open up 
some possibilities where the real 303 leaves off.

http://www.synthmania.com/Famous%20Sounds.htm

srcoll down to "Smack My Bitch Up" and check out a nice emulation that 
isn't *really* an emulation, but has a similar feel as the real thing. 
i've done similar with a CZ-1, and heard similar on an FS1r and k5000. 
being able to do similar on a poly-800... with filter mods... wow! just 
run it through an AM8000r and you should be able to sound like liam's 
prophecy ;)


-- 
         ...atom

  ________________________
  http://atom.smasher.org/
  762A 3B98 A3C3 96C9 C6B7 582A B88D 52E4 D9F5 7808
  -------------------------------------------------

 	"The first duty of a revolutionary is to get away with it."
 		-- Abbie Hoffman

On Tue, 11 Nov 2008, Alex Drinkwater wrote:

>> if you can route velocity to DCA/DCF/etc then you can have your accent.
>>
>> just program a sequence that only uses velocity "1" for no accent and 
>> velocity "127" for accent.
>
> My thoughts exactly. Currently, you can't, however.
===============

why not??


-- 
         ...atom

  ________________________
  http://atom.smasher.org/
  762A 3B98 A3C3 96C9 C6B7 582A B88D 52E4 D9F5 7808
  -------------------------------------------------

 	"Not one weapon in our vast arsenal can shield us from
 	 a nuclear weapon delivered in a sailboat or a Piper
 	 Cub or a suitcase or a Ryder rental truck. Not a
 	 penny of the 273 billion dollars a year we spend on
 	 so-called defense can actually defend us against a
 	 terrorist bomb. Nothing in our enormous military
 	 establishment can actually give us one whit of
 	 security. That is a military fact... In country
 	 after country, our government has thwarted
 	 democracy, stifled freedom, and trampled human
 	 rights. That's why we are hated around the world...
 	 We are not hated because we practice democracy,
 	 freedom, and human rights. We are hated because our
 	 government denies these things to people in third
 	 world countries whose resources are coveted by our
 	 multinational corporations... We must change our
 	 government's ways... Only one thing has ever ended a
 	 terrorist campaign - denying the terrorist
 	 organization the support of the larger community it
 	 represents... Remove the desperation, give them some
 	 hope, and support for terrorism will evaporate. At
 	 that point bin Laden will be forced to abandon
 	 terrorism or be treated like a common criminal.
 	 Either way, he and his money cease to be a threat. We
 	 CAN have security ... or we can have revenge. We
 	 cannot have both."
 		-- Dr. Robert M. Bowman, Director of all "Star Wars"
 		programs under presidents Ford and Carter, combat
 		pilot over Vietnam (101 missions), Ph.D. in Aeronautics
 		and Nuclear Engineering, President of the Institute for
 		Space and Security Studies and Presiding Archbishop of
 		the United Catholic Church

Hi.

--- On Tue, 11/11/08, Gordon JC Pearce MM3YEQ <gordon@...> wrote:

> From: Gordon JC Pearce MM3YEQ <gordon@...>
> Subject: Re: [korgpolyex] Hawk-800 Feature Idea
> To: korgpolyex@yahoogroups.com
> Date: Tuesday, 11 November, 2008, 10:12 PM
> Atom Smasher wrote:
> 
> > just add some velocity "accent" and you can
> not just emulate a 303, but go 
> > beyond a basic 303 sound.
> 
> Bear in mind that a real 303 also slows down the attack
> portion of the 
> filter envelope when accent is on, as you increase the
> resonance.

Ah.. I didn't know that...
I thought the decay was reduced on accented notes, but I'd never have twigged the attack was also slowed at the same time. I assume it's only the filter attack that's altered, not the volume envelope.

> That's why the resonance pot has a double track - one
> half provides 
> feedback around the filter,

So the resonance-boost on accented notes isn't actually from the filter circuit itself? Interesting...

> ...the other varies the time
> constant of an RC 
> circuit formed by C13/VR4/R46 so that as the resonance is
> increased, the 
> attack is lagged by C13 giving the distinctive 303
> "weoow".  It's damn 
> near impossible to emulate on other synths ;-)  In fact,
> only 303 clones 
> and one 303 softsynth get it nearly right...

Ah.. I seee. I hadn't analysed the sound in such detail, I must admit. And I don't have a 303 of my own to run tests on, sadly..
So is the filter env attack only altered on accented notes, or on all notes, as the resonance is increased?

a|x

> 
> Gordon
> 
> 
> ------------------------------------
> 
> Yahoo! Groups Links
> 
> 
>

--- On Tue, 11/11/08, David Mochen <davidmochen@...> wrote:

> From: David Mochen <davidmochen@...>
> Subject: Re: [korgpolyex] Hawk-800 Feature Idea
> To: korgpolyex@yahoogroups.com
> Date: Tuesday, 11 November, 2008, 11:27 PM
> Hi!
> 
> I was astonished too by your mp3.

Cheers!

> I love to disguise the
> Poly 800's often "too characteristic"
> soundmark by turning off the chorus, for example. Congrats!

I've always loved the chorus, to be honest. I've even grown to love the large amount of noise that suddenly appears when you turn it on (especially on patches with the filter cutoff turned down).

a|x

> 
> Dave
> 
> ----- Original Message ----- 
>   From: Alex Drinkwater 
>   To: korgpolyex@yahoogroups.com 
>   Sent: Tuesday, November 11, 2008 7:23 PM
>   Subject: Re: [korgpolyex] Hawk-800 Feature Idea
> 
> 
>   --- On Tue, 11/11/08, Atom Smasher
> <atom@...> wrote:
> 
>   > From: Atom Smasher <atom@...>
>   > Subject: Re: [korgpolyex] Hawk-800 Feature Idea
>   > To: korgpolyex@yahoogroups.com
>   > Date: Tuesday, 11 November, 2008, 9:11 PM
>   > On Tue, 11 Nov 2008, Alex Drinkwater wrote:
>   > 
>   > > I'm uploading an example of the current
> Hawk mod
>   > Portamento Mono mode in 
>   > > use, sequenced from an d recorded in Ableton
> Live,
>   > with realtime 
>   > > control-tweaking from my Novation XStation
> controller.
>   > ========================
>   > 
>   > damn!!! i can't believe that's coming from a
>   > poly-800!!!!
>   > 
>   > just add some velocity "accent" and you
> can not
>   > just emulate a 303, but go 
>   > beyond a basic 303 sound.
> 
>   Exactly- which is why an accent feature would be the
> icing on the cake for me :D
> 
>   Incidentally, I did manage to come quite close to this
> sound with my unmodded Poly-800 some years ago (the example
> was an EX-800).
> 
>   I'll upload another example file :D
> 
>   a|x
> 
>   > 
>   > 
>   > -- 
>   > ...atom
>   > 
>   > ________________________
>   > http://atom.smasher.org/
>   > 762A 3B98 A3C3 96C9 C6B7 582A B88D 52E4 D9F5 7808
>   > -------------------------------------------------
>   > 
>   > "The liberty of a democracy is not safe if the
>   > people
>   > tolerate the growth of private power to a point
>   > where it becomes stronger than the democratic state
>   > itself. That in its essence is fascism: ownership of
>   > government by an individual, by a group or any
>   > controlling private power."
>   > -- Franklin Roosevelt
>   > 
>   > 
>   > 
>   > ------------------------------------
>   > 
>   > Yahoo! Groups Links
>   > 
>   > 
>   >

Alex,

I wish I was less engineer and more musician!

Standby for my comments on your "feature request".

Mike.




________________________________
From: David Mochen <davidmochen@...>
To: korgpolyex@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Tuesday, November 11, 2008 6:27:28 PM
Subject: Re: [korgpolyex] Hawk-800 Feature Idea


 
Hi!
 
I was astonished too by your mp3. I love 
to disguise the Poly 800's often "too characteristic" soundmark by turning off 
the chorus, for example. Congrats!
 
Dave
 
----- Original Message ----- 
From: Alex  Drinkwater 
To: korgpolyex@yahoogro ups.com 
Sent: Tuesday, November 11, 2008 7:23  PM
Subject: Re: [korgpolyex] Hawk-800  Feature Idea

--- On Tue, 11/11/08, Atom Smasher <atom@smasher. org>  wrote:

> From: Atom Smasher <atom@smasher. org>
> Subject:  Re: [korgpolyex] Hawk-800 Feature Idea
> To: korgpolyex@yahoogro ups.com
>  Date: Tuesday, 11 November, 2008, 9:11 PM
> On Tue, 11 Nov 2008, Alex  Drinkwater wrote:
> 
> > I'm uploading an example of the  current Hawk mod
> Portamento Mono mode in 
> > use, sequenced  from an d recorded in Ableton Live,
> with realtime 
> >  control-tweaking from my Novation XStation controller.
>  ============ ========= ===
> 
> damn!!! i can't believe  that's coming from a
> poly-800!!!!
> 
> just add some  velocity "accent" and you can not
> just emulate a 303, but go 
>  beyond a basic 303 sound.

Exactly- which is why an accent feature would  be the icing on the cake for me :D

Incidentally, I did manage to come  quite close to this sound with my unmodded Poly-800 some years ago (the  example was an EX-800).

I'll upload another example file  :D

a|x

> 
> 
> -- 
> ..atom
> 
> ____________ _________ ___
> http://atom. smasher.org/
> 762A  3B98 A3C3 96C9 C6B7 582A B88D 52E4 D9F5 7808
>  ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- -
> 
> "The liberty of a democracy is not safe if the
> people
>  tolerate the growth of private power to a point
> where it becomes  stronger than the democratic state
> itself. That in its essence is  fascism: ownership of
> government by an individual, by a group or  any
> controlling private power."
> -- Franklin Roosevelt
> 
> 
> 
>  ------------ --------- --------- ------
> 
> Yahoo!  Groups Links
> 
> 
>

On Tue, 11 Nov 2008, Alex Drinkwater wrote:

> Ah.. I seee. I hadn't analysed the sound in such detail, I must admit. 
> And I don't have a 303 of my own to run tests on, sadly.. So is the 
> filter env attack only altered on accented notes, or on all notes, as 
> the resonance is increased?
===============

don't spend too much time on it, unless you really want to build a clone 
and/or drive yourself crazy. this is the topic of much bandwidth in places 
like analog-heaven, synth-diy, etc, and i wouldn't be surprised if there 
have been graduate theses done on it.

at the end of the day, it's just "magic". especially when you're trying to 
recreate the "vibe" or "feel" on other hardware.


-- 
         ...atom

  ________________________
  http://atom.smasher.org/
  762A 3B98 A3C3 96C9 C6B7 582A B88D 52E4 D9F5 7808
  -------------------------------------------------

 	"The proper time to influence the character of a
 	 child is about a hundred years before he's born."
 		-- William R. Inge (1913-1973)

Alex Drinkwater wrote:
> Hi.
> 
> --- On Tue, 11/11/08, Gordon JC Pearce MM3YEQ <gordon@...> wrote:
> 
>> From: Gordon JC Pearce MM3YEQ <gordon@...>
>> Subject: Re: [korgpolyex] Hawk-800 Feature Idea
>> To: korgpolyex@yahoogroups.com
>> Date: Tuesday, 11 November, 2008, 10:12 PM
>> Atom Smasher wrote:
>>
>>> just add some velocity "accent" and you can
>> not just emulate a 303, but go 
>>> beyond a basic 303 sound.
>> Bear in mind that a real 303 also slows down the attack
>> portion of the 
>> filter envelope when accent is on, as you increase the
>> resonance.
> 
> Ah.. I didn't know that...
> I thought the decay was reduced on accented notes, but I'd never have twigged the attack was also slowed at the same time. I assume it's only the filter attack that's altered, not the volume envelope.

Yes, the decay is reduced to minimum.

>> That's why the resonance pot has a double track - one
>> half provides 
>> feedback around the filter,
> 
> So the resonance-boost on accented notes isn't actually from the filter circuit itself? Interesting...

I'm not sure that there *is* a resonance boost on accented notes - I 
don't see anything in the circuit that would do that.  There might be 
something I'm missing though.

>> ...the other varies the time
>> constant of an RC 
>> circuit formed by C13/VR4/R46 so that as the resonance is
>> increased, the 
>> attack is lagged by C13 giving the distinctive 303
>> "weoow".  It's damn 
>> near impossible to emulate on other synths ;-)  In fact,
>> only 303 clones 
>> and one 303 softsynth get it nearly right...
> 
> Ah.. I seee. I hadn't analysed the sound in such detail, I must admit. And I don't have a 303 of my own to run tests on, sadly..
> So is the filter env attack only altered on accented notes, or on all notes, as the resonance is increased?

No, it's only on accented notes.

If you have a look at the circuit for the 303, you'll see that the gate 
pulse is differentiated by C54/R148 and buffered by Q36 etc. so it can 
charge C62 via D37/R152.  The decay control discharges C62 through 
D26-D28 and R138, with the first having a resistor to bias it to around 
0.6v, presumably to stop it doing odd things to Q39 (I don't fully 
understand this bit but suspect it gives the envelope the correct 
exponential curve).

Now when accent is triggered, one of IC12's analogue switches shorts out 
the decay pot, leaving only R138 to set the decay time.  Another of 
IC12's switches sends the envelope pulse to one end of the accent pot, 
with the wiper going to D24 in the filter accent circuit and also to the 
VCA, where it gets added to the the "normal" VCA envelope.

Note that because of D24, the resonance control doesn't affect the VCA 
envelope rise time.

Damn.  I've just spotted a bug in my plugin model ;-)

Gordon

--- On Tue, 11/11/08, Michael Hawkins <korgpolyex800@...> wrote:
From: Michael Hawkins <korgpolyex800@...>
Subject: Re: [korgpolyex] Hawk-800 Feature Idea
To: korgpolyex@yahoogroups.com
Date: Tuesday, 11 November, 2008, 10:36 PM





Alex,

I wish I was less engineer and more musician!

Standby for my comments on your "feature request".

Standing (or rather sitting) by as I type.
Those speech marks look ominous, though...

a|x


Mike.


From: David Mochen <davidmochen@...>
To: korgpolyex@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Tuesday, November 11, 2008 6:27:28 PM
Subject: Re: [korgpolyex] Hawk-800 Feature Idea










    
            


Hi!
 
I was astonished too by your mp3. I love 
to disguise the Poly 800's often "too characteristic" soundmark by turning off 
the chorus, for example. Congrats!
 
Dave
 
----- Original Message ----- 

  From: 
  Alex 
  Drinkwater 
  To: korgpolyex@yahoogro ups.com 
  Sent: Tuesday, November 11, 2008 7:23 
  PM
  Subject: Re: [korgpolyex] Hawk-800 
  Feature Idea
  

  
  --- On Tue, 11/11/08, Atom Smasher <atom@smasher. org> 
  wrote:

> From: Atom Smasher <atom@smasher. org>
> Subject: 
  Re: [korgpolyex] Hawk-800 Feature Idea
> To: korgpolyex@yahoogro ups.com
> 
  Date: Tuesday, 11 November, 2008, 9:11 PM
> On Tue, 11 Nov 2008, Alex 
  Drinkwater wrote:
> 
> > I'm uploading an example of the 
  current Hawk mod
> Portamento Mono mode in 
> > use, sequenced 
  from an d recorded in Ableton Live,
> with realtime 
> > 
  control-tweaking from my Novation XStation controller.
> 
  ============ ========= ===
> 
> damn!!! i can't believe 
  that's coming from a
> poly-800!!!!
> 
> just add some 
  velocity "accent" and you can not
> just emulate a 303, but go 
> 
  beyond a basic 303 sound.

Exactly- which is why an accent feature would 
  be the icing on the cake for me :D

Incidentally, I did manage to come 
  quite close to this sound with my unmodded Poly-800 some years ago (the 
  example was an EX-800).

I'll upload another example file 
  :D

a|x

> 
> 
> -- 
> ..atom
> 
  
> ____________ _________ ___
> http://atom. smasher.org/
> 762A 
  3B98 A3C3 96C9 C6B7 582A B88D 52E4 D9F5 7808
> 
  ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- -
> 
  
> "The liberty of a democracy is not safe if the
> people
> 
  tolerate the growth of private power to a point
> where it becomes 
  stronger than the democratic state
> itself. That in its essence is 
  fascism: ownership of
> government by an individual, by a group or 
  any
> controlling private power."
> -- Franklin Roosevelt
> 
  
> 
> 
> 
  ------------ --------- --------- ------
> 
> Yahoo! 
  Groups Links

> 
> 
>

Atom Smasher wrote:
> On Tue, 11 Nov 2008, Alex Drinkwater wrote:
> 
>> Ah.. I seee. I hadn't analysed the sound in such detail, I must admit. 
>> And I don't have a 303 of my own to run tests on, sadly.. So is the 
>> filter env attack only altered on accented notes, or on all notes, as 
>> the resonance is increased?
> ===============
> 
> don't spend too much time on it, unless you really want to build a clone 
> and/or drive yourself crazy. this is the topic of much bandwidth in places 
> like analog-heaven, synth-diy, etc, and i wouldn't be surprised if there 
> have been graduate theses done on it.

I've thought about it *waaaay* too much.  I wrote a software clone and 
went crazy.  There's a lesson in that for us all ;-)

> at the end of the day, it's just "magic". especially when you're trying to 
> recreate the "vibe" or "feel" on other hardware.

Yeah.  Ultimately you need a not-quite-squarewave (the Poly-800's 
divider-generated squarewaves are too perfect), a squeaky resonant 
filter, and a fuzzbox.  Maybe an echo machine, too, but definitely a 
fuzzbox.

And then you need to listen to New Order - "Confusion (Pump Panel 
Remix)", you know, the one from Blade with all the vampires dancing in 
the club in back of a meat packing plant.

Gordon

On 11 Nov 2008, at 23:00, Gordon JC Pearce MM3YEQ wrote:

> Atom Smasher wrote:
>> On Tue, 11 Nov 2008, Alex Drinkwater wrote:
>>
>>> Ah.. I seee. I hadn't analysed the sound in such detail, I must  
>>> admit.
>>> And I don't have a 303 of my own to run tests on, sadly.. So is the
>>> filter env attack only altered on accented notes, or on all notes,  
>>> as
>>> the resonance is increased?
>> ===============
>>
>> don't spend too much time on it, unless you really want to build a  
>> clone
>> and/or drive yourself crazy. this is the topic of much bandwidth in  
>> places
>> like analog-heaven, synth-diy, etc, and i wouldn't be surprised if  
>> there
>> have been graduate theses done on it.
>
> I've thought about it *waaaay* too much.  I wrote a software clone and
> went crazy.  There's a lesson in that for us all ;-)
>
>> at the end of the day, it's just "magic". especially when you're  
>> trying to
>> recreate the "vibe" or "feel" on other hardware.
>
> Yeah.  Ultimately you need a not-quite-squarewave (the Poly-800's
> divider-generated squarewaves are too perfect), a squeaky resonant
> filter, and a fuzzbox.  Maybe an echo machine, too, but definitely a
> fuzzbox.
>
> And then you need to listen to New Order - "Confusion (Pump Panel
> Remix)", you know, the one from Blade with all the vampires dancing in
> the club in back of a meat packing plant.

I haven't seen the film, but I can picture the scene now.
That track is pretty-much The definitive 303 track (though there are  
probably some by Hardfloor that are in the running too).
Oh, hang on, I was thinking of the Pump Panel remix of Blue Monday  
(also a distorted 303 workout).

Right; time for bed. Glad I've stimulated a little debate, anyway :D


a|x

>
>
> Gordon
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>

On 11 Nov 2008, at 22:36, Michael Hawkins wrote:

> Alex,
>
> I wish I was less engineer and more musician!

And I wish I was more musician and less..... 'person who spends more  
time thinking about music that actually making it'...
;)

a|x

>
>
> Standby for my comments on your "feature request".
>
> Mike.
>
>
> From: David Mochen <davidmochen@...>
> To: korgpolyex@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Tuesday, November 11, 2008 6:27:28 PM
> Subject: Re: [korgpolyex] Hawk-800 Feature Idea
>
>
> Hi!
>
> I was astonished too by your mp3. I love to disguise the Poly 800's  
> often "too characteristic" soundmark by turning off the chorus, for  
> example. Congrats!
>
> Dave
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Alex Drinkwater
> To: korgpolyex@yahoogro ups.com
> Sent: Tuesday, November 11, 2008 7:23 PM
> Subject: Re: [korgpolyex] Hawk-800 Feature Idea
>
> --- On Tue, 11/11/08, Atom Smasher <atom@smasher. org> wrote:
>
> > From: Atom Smasher <atom@smasher. org>
> > Subject: Re: [korgpolyex] Hawk-800 Feature Idea
> > To: korgpolyex@yahoogro ups.com
> > Date: Tuesday, 11 November, 2008, 9:11 PM
> > On Tue, 11 Nov 2008, Alex Drinkwater wrote:
> >
> > > I'm uploading an example of the current Hawk mod
> > Portamento Mono mode in
> > > use, sequenced from an d recorded in Ableton Live,
> > with realtime
> > > control-tweaking from my Novation XStation controller.
> > ============ ========= ===
> >
> > damn!!! i can't believe that's coming from a
> > poly-800!!!!
> >
> > just add some velocity "accent" and you can not
> > just emulate a 303, but go
> > beyond a basic 303 sound.
>
> Exactly- which is why an accent feature would be the icing on the  
> cake for me :D
>
> Incidentally, I did manage to come quite close to this sound with my  
> unmodded Poly-800 some years ago (the example was an EX-800).
>
> I'll upload another example file :D
>
> a|x
>
> >
> >
> > --
> > ..atom
> >
> > ____________ _________ ___
> > http://atom. smasher.org/
> > 762A 3B98 A3C3 96C9 C6B7 582A B88D 52E4 D9F5 7808
> > ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- -
> >
> > "The liberty of a democracy is not safe if the
> > people
> > tolerate the growth of private power to a point
> > where it becomes stronger than the democratic state
> > itself. That in its essence is fascism: ownership of
> > government by an individual, by a group or any
> > controlling private power."
> > -- Franklin Roosevelt
> >
> >
> >
> > ------------ --------- --------- ------
> >
> > Yahoo! Groups Links
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>
>

Hi!

I was astonished too by your mp3. I love to disguise the Poly 800's often "too characteristic" soundmark by turning off the chorus, for example. Congrats!

Dave

----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Alex Drinkwater 
  To: korgpolyex@yahoogroups.com 
  Sent: Tuesday, November 11, 2008 7:23 PM
  Subject: Re: [korgpolyex] Hawk-800 Feature Idea


  --- On Tue, 11/11/08, Atom Smasher <atom@...> wrote:

  > From: Atom Smasher <atom@smasher.org>
  > Subject: Re: [korgpolyex] Hawk-800 Feature Idea
  > To: korgpolyex@yahoogroups.com
  > Date: Tuesday, 11 November, 2008, 9:11 PM
  > On Tue, 11 Nov 2008, Alex Drinkwater wrote:
  > 
  > > I'm uploading an example of the current Hawk mod
  > Portamento Mono mode in 
  > > use, sequenced from an d recorded in Ableton Live,
  > with realtime 
  > > control-tweaking from my Novation XStation controller.
  > ========================
  > 
  > damn!!! i can't believe that's coming from a
  > poly-800!!!!
  > 
  > just add some velocity "accent" and you can not
  > just emulate a 303, but go 
  > beyond a basic 303 sound.

  Exactly- which is why an accent feature would be the icing on the cake for me :D

  Incidentally, I did manage to come quite close to this sound with my unmodded Poly-800 some years ago (the example was an EX-800).

  I'll upload another example file :D

  a|x

  > 
  > 
  > -- 
  > ...atom
  > 
  > ________________________
  > http://atom.smasher.org/
  > 762A 3B98 A3C3 96C9 C6B7 582A B88D 52E4 D9F5 7808
  > -------------------------------------------------
  > 
  > "The liberty of a democracy is not safe if the
  > people
  > tolerate the growth of private power to a point
  > where it becomes stronger than the democratic state
  > itself. That in its essence is fascism: ownership of
  > government by an individual, by a group or any
  > controlling private power."
  > -- Franklin Roosevelt
  > 
  > 
  > 
  > ------------------------------------
  > 
  > Yahoo! Groups Links
  > 
  > 
  >

That's very impressive. Much closer to 'that' 303 sound than I ever got.

a|x



--- On Wed, 12/11/08, Piotr P <xelectric123@...> wrote:

> From: Piotr P <xelectric123@...>
> Subject: Re: [korgpolyex] Hawk-800 Feature Idea
> To: "korgpolyex" <korgpolyex@yahoogroups.com>
> Date: Wednesday, 12 November, 2008, 8:58 AM
> In the subject of 303-ish Poly-800 some time ago I've
> made a patch that works pretty good in terms of emulating
> squelchy distorted 303-ish sound:
> 
> http://xelectric.republika.pl/poly303.mp3
> 
> It's sequenced through Techno Toys Seq-303   small
> delay applied on the audio output.
> ----------------------------------------------------Sylwester
> pod palmami! Egipt już od 1672 zł.Sprawdź nasze
> propozycje.http://klik.wp.pl/?adr=http://wycieczki.wp.pl&sid=551
> 
> 
> 
>

----- Original Message -----

Ok that is a great snippet.

I am assuming that you did this with the Moog Slayer mods in place - right?

If not, how did you control the filter? Or were you just using the keypad to change parameters the hard way?

Mike

--- On Wed, 12/11/08, Piotr P <xelectric123@...> wrote:

> From: Piotr P <xelectric123@...>
> Subject: Re: [korgpolyex] Hawk-800 Feature Idea
> To: "korgpolyex" <korgpolyex@yahoogroups.com>
> Date: Wednesday, 12 November, 2008, 3:33 PM
> IIRC it was one of the first patches I made after the
> cut/rez mod somewhere back in 2001. The filter resonance was
> set near self-oscillation, and I was twiddling with cutoff
> knob during the sequence.

Ah, of course. That's why it sounds so different- hadn't realised it was a modded Poly-800..

The clip I uploaded last night was from a completely unmodified one, so I was changing the filter and envelope parameters one at a time, from the keypad. I used to do a lot of that kind of thing with the P-800, which is why it's such a revelation to now be able to tweak sounds from sliders on my master keyboard!

a|x

> I'll try to find a chart with that patch (I used to
> write down every single patch back then), and post it here.
> If not, I'll dust off my Poly and if there were no
> problems with  memory (I guess it wasn't turned on for
> like 2 years now), I'll write the numbers down again 
> :-)
> 
> Cheers.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>     
>             Ok that is a great snippet.
> 
> I am assuming that you did this with the Moog Slayer mods
> in place - right?
> 
> If not, how did you control the filter? Or were you just
> using the keypad to change parameters the hard way?
> 
> Mike
> 
> From: Piotr P <xelectric123@ wp.pl>
> To: korgpolyex <korgpolyex@yahoogro ups.com>
> Sent: Wednesday, November 12, 2008 3:58:18
>  AM
> Subject: Re: [korgpolyex] Hawk-800 Feature Idea
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>     
>             
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> In the subject of 303-ish Poly-800 some time ago I've
> made a patch that works pretty good in terms of emulating
> squelchy distorted 303-ish sound:
> 
> http://xelectric. republika. pl/poly303. mp3
> 
> It's sequenced through Techno Toys Seq-303   small
> delay applied on the audio output.
> 
> 
> 
> ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- ----
> Sylwester pod palmami! 
> Egipt już od 1672 zł.
> Sprawdź nasze propozycje.
> http://klik. wp.pl/?adr= http://wycieczki .wp.pl&sid=551
> 
> 
> 
>       
> 
> 
> 	
> 	
> 
> 
>       
>       
> 
>     
> 	
> 	
> 
> 
> 
> ----------------------------------------------------Oto
> ostrzeżenie od Twojego Słoneczka ! -
> Kliknij:http://klik.wp.pl/?adr=http://corto.www.wp.pl/as/prorocznia2.html&sid=554
> 
> 
> 
>