The Logic Off Topic list

This past Wednesday in Audio Round-Table we discussed how midi could be
used more effectively on rocketnetwork if everyona had access to an
identical and predictable instrument set to use for basic songwriting
tools.

The session was attended by BetaBrett, Lennie, Robert_Matichak,
remixqueen, EB, onlinesupp-dazeI, skwawksoun, mojen, MixMasterMark and
oink.
The following is a substantially edited summary of the forum chat:


 oink says, "we had a discussion a while back "
 oink says, "where we agreed it might be good to propse a general set of
instruments to
replace GM for rocket users"
 oink says, "like to approach a software company to produce a free or
low-cost locked version of
their soft-sampler which we could all use"
 oink says, "for drums and basses and keys etc"
 oink says, "stuff for songwriters mainly"
 skwawksoun says, "cheap exs lite with upgrade possibility"
 oink says, "yes, something like that"
 oink says, "with quality samples, but a limited set"
 oink says, "no gunshots and odd synths"
 oink says, "cause GM is just not working round here"
 oink says, "and we still have a lotta users on dial-up"
 BetaBrett says, "yup"
 BetaBrett says, "a LOT"
 oink says, "so it would be good to re-invigorate midi a bit"
 oink says, "wel I think, in australia, there are like only 10 or 20
thousand people
who are on cable"
 oink says, "well midi would be a lot better served through an
audioinstrument, as it
stands"
 BetaBrett says, "true enuf"
 oink says, "cause , absolutely , midi has a back seat now"
 skwawksoun says, "i'm just finding it"
 oink says, "because GM is so variable, and low quality"
 oink says, "so any takers to work on getting a proposal together ?"
 skwawksoun says, "yeah you get over gm sounds pretty quick as a newuser
but samples
are hard to jump into at first"
 BetaBrett says, "Oink - outline your main points"
 oink says, "a limited set isn't too hard"
 oink says, "OK. point1 GM is dead and not of sufficient quality for
most rocket users"
 oink says, "point 2 GM lacks sufficient variation in the instruments
that matter,
basses, drums, keys"
 oink says, "point 3 lots of rocket users are on dialup and need
low-bandwidth option
for general rythm stuff, if they are writing songs"
 oink says, "point4 a locked down general-use set version of a
soft-sampler plugin would
be a good demo for the company that makes it"
 oink says, "and introduce a fast and consistent basis for rocket users
to get on with
sessions"
 skwawksoun says, "consistency is a BIG point"

 oink says, "I just wonder what you guys think about what sort of
instruments you would
need on such a 'general rocket set' ?"
 skwawksoun says, "be nice if it had a good baritone"
 skwawksoun says, "or is that going to far"
 BetaBrett says, "baritone marimba? (hehe)"
 oink says, "well , its up to all you  guys, and others, to put forward
what you think"
 skwawksoun says, "baritone ice rain"
 oink says, "what your needs are"
 oink says, "size will be an issue"
 mojen says, "isn't it always?  ;-)"
 Lennie says, "well everyone is goin to have different needs"
 oink says, "so whatever list we get will probably have to be cut by
half"
 Lennie says, "I think its a matter of how stripped down is the set to
be"
 oink says, "but some instruments could have different zones with
different
instruments"
 BetaBrett says, "The common instrument should be meat and potatoes...
users augment
them with audio - let's be practical"
 oink says, "yes, thats it"
 Lennie says, "yup   bass drums pianos & strings he he"
 BetaBrett says, "right"
 skwawksoun says, "how big are exs samples"
 oink says, "yeh, what do you need to get on with the real stuff"
 BetaBrett says, "Most of the common instruments would probably get
replaced anyway -
used for composing and arranging"
 oink says, "ok most samples will be about 100k or less"
 oink says, "I think the thing is to have instruments that sound good
enough to get on
with, till you get that drummer or bassist or whatever lined up"
 oink says, "they should be crisp and clean and not mushy"
 oink says, "no synths are really required, as a other instruments can
have filters
applied"
 BetaBrett says, "Yeah - it's important to keep to practical limits
defined by the
need of the problem - easy collaboration"
 skwawksoun says, "less choice lean towards better sounds ,for the
inspiration"
 oink says, "so maybe we could start with half a dozen basses, elctric
pno, a nice
grand pno, string section pad [not lush though, that can be fixed in
fiters etc]"
 skwawksoun says, "what about sets for styles"
 oink says, "liek ahard rock set, acoustic set etc ?"
 skwawksoun says, "yeah"
 oink says, "yeh it needs to be kept basic"
 oink says, "otherwise they won't go for it"
 onlinesupp-dazeI says, "ambint set "
 oink says, "well ambient can be achieved with filters etc"
 onlinesupp-dazeI says, "kool"
 oink says, "but a strings pad, a synth pad and a 303 inst should cover
a lot"
 onlinesupp-dazeI says, "yes i agree"
 oink says, "steinberg already has the Universal Sound Module, which is
a big point of
thirs for using on rocket, or it was last year"
 oink says, "but you can't use it in Logic"
 oink says, "something based on the some other VSTi could be used by
everyone"
 oink says, "and the USM is pretty big"
 oink says, "too big to download for most"
 oink says, "81mb, would you beleive"
 oink says, "I think, we need something no bigger than 10mb or less"
 oink says, "maybe 15mb on the outside"
 oink says, "so we'd have to be very prudent with long samples"
 oink says, "any more ideas on instruments ?"
 skwawksoun says, "sax"
 BetaBrett says, "keep it simple - otherwise you re-invent the wheel"
 oink says, "OK, a sax could cover zones"
 skwawksoun says, "like sax sections"
 BetaBrett says, "but sax of course!"
 oink says, "from bari to tenor to soprano"
 skwawksoun says, "yeah"
 BetaBrett says, "never heard a sax section i liked ;)"
 BetaBrett says, "if you mean sampled as a section that is"
 oink says, "i don't think alto would come into play much"
 BetaBrett says, "BOO!"
 skwawksoun says, "sorry i meant i like the sound of a few saxes playing
together"
 BetaBrett says, "horn section is required or I take my marbles and go
home!"
 Lennie says, "Hmmm  its straying from stripped down already he he"
 oink says, "the brass sesction in yamaha's XG set isn't bad"
 oink says, "especially brass-fall"
 BetaBrett says, "speaking as a sax player, I can't agree..... (i'm just
playing
devil's advocate here...)"
 oink says, "ok a brass sect instrument and a sax instrument [including
alto]"
 oink says, "well ask me about harmonica in synths"
 skwawksoun says, "done"
 oink says, "no one has come even close yet"
 mojen says, "how about a user-selectable configuration of instruments
to download?"
 oink says, "virtual-melodica is as close as they get"
 BetaBrett says, "don\ufffdt need a harmonica - most sax samples already
sound like
harmonica!"
 oink says, "well user-selectable sorta goes against the idea of a
general set"
 oink says, "yeh, harmonica isn't needed"
 mojen says, "i mean, meat & potatoes are included, but sax or whatever
is an option"
 oink says, "besides, harmonica just puts icing on the cake"
 BetaBrett says, "You will have to be hella severe, Oink, to make this
viable ;)"
 oink says, "mojen, they will want to sell the full retail version to
anyione who wants more"
 oink says, "besides we are talking a general instrument so midi is more
viable here"
 oink says, "a substitute for GM"
 oink says, "something absolutely constant"
 mojen says, "good point...  don't mind me"
 oink says, "it will be up to the software company if they want to make
an expanded version as an
extra step up to the full versions out now"
 oink says, "but that could be viable too"
 oink says, "like the way Bitheadz do specific versions of Unity for
piano and drums
etc"
 oink says, "but not our brief really"
 oink says, "ok how many basses ?"
 skwawksoun says, "one precision"
 oink says, "and an upright"
 skwawksoun says, "finger/pick"
 oink says, "fretless ?"
 BetaBrett says, "yes, fretless"
 skwawksoun says, "fretless=upright almost"
 BetaBrett says, "no way"
 mojen says, "why not just base it on the meat & potatoes of the GM
set?"
 BetaBrett says, "right - it would turn into that anyway :)"
 skwawksoun says, "o.k "
 oink says, "I think the funk bases could be, well lets see where GM
falls down ?"
 oink says, "the funk basses can be a bit hard in GM"
 mojen says, "GM falls down in many, many ways and it can't get up"
  BetaBrett says, "lol"
oink says, "but a soft sampler offers more options with filters and
stuff"
 oink says, "so a thumb-bass or pick bass could be made funky"
 skwawksoun says, "there's alot in slapping "
 oink says, "yeh, but for good stuff you still need to get a bassist.
were just talking
framework tracks which can be a guide, but which dont make you puke"
 remixqueen says, "there are some great freebie vst insts already out
there"
 remixqueen says, "mda piano"
 remixqueen says, "vb bass"
 oink says, "yes, actually, for bass, the VB-1 covers quite a bit"
 remixqueen says, "i'm just trying the sampletank piano"
 oink says, "Ok so we keep basses to a minimum"
 oink says, "maybe 4 plus a 303 ?"
 skwawksoun says, "thats enough for an album"
 oink says, "drums..."
 oink says, "now theres an area that could be improved"
 skwawksoun says, "a little kit an a big kit"
 oink says, "yes"
 remixqueen says, "ok got it to work!!!!"
 BetaBrett says, "!"
 remixqueen says, "not bad sounding for a freebie"
 remixqueen says, "or definitely great for writing on rocket"
 remixqueen says, "sorry the freebie sampletank acoustic piano"
 oink says, "Ok then, just a rhodes, and a basic pno for our set then,
or should EP be
a wurli ?"
 skwawksoun says, "hohner hehe"
 BetaBrett says, "how am I gonna share my john cage pieces?"
 oink says, "Ok treated piano too :)"
 BetaBrett says, "lol"
 oink says, "ok so two pianos"
 skwawksoun says, "a rhodes is a seperate sort of inst so y not
rho/stand/wurli"
 oink says, "ok"
 oink says, "i just wonder if a wurli would be used as much"
 oink says, "personally i love wurli"
 BetaBrett says, "Come on - you're getting way to broad!"
 oink says, "but rhodes would be more general"
 BetaBrett says, "if i understand the agenda, that is"
 oink says, "yes"
 oink says, "anyway any set can be treated with filters too"
 oink says, "Ok 2 pianos"
 oink says, "standard and rhodes"
 oink says, "what else ?"
 oink says, "we don't want like 128 instruments"
 oink says, "maybe a dozen or so"
 oink says, "up to 20 I guess"
 oink says, "acoustic guitar"
 skwawksoun says, "funky clav"
 Lennie says, "how many instruments do U need to write a song?"
 oink says, "not many"
 Lennie says, "not produce 1  just write it"
 skwawksoun says, "well funky clav leads somewhere"
 oink says, "but you need to create a sound in the style you want"
 oink says, "we are talking mainly of low-bandwidth users geetting
meaningful stuff
done"
 oink says, "with midi"
 skwawksoun says, "gm guitar of any sort just does nothing for me"
 BetaBrett says, "but Oink... I thought the PRIMARY purpose was
COMMONALITY"
 BetaBrett says, "No?"
 Lennie says, "guitar samples are worse than sax!!!"
 oink says, "ok you can make funky clav out of rhodes with filters"
 skwawksoun says, "just doesn't happen"
 oink says, "yes commonality"
 remixqueen says, "call me old fashioned but there is a big differenece
between
writing a song and producing a track"
 skwawksoun says, "you a lite es1 would be nice bundles with it"
 Lennie says, "thats what Im tryin to get at Remix "
 oink says, "of course, but you guys know the level people want to be at
here"
 remixqueen says, "no what level?"
 oink says, "in public sessions they want to express style as well as
barebones
songwriting"
 remixqueen says, "so why can't they buy or download some vst insts?"
 BetaBrett says, "The inst set should be meat and potatoes for composing
and
arranging purposes augmented by audio - anything else will fail"
 oink says, "but if they learn the filters etc in the softsampler, ther
can be lots of variation"
 remixqueen says, "i mean if everyone owned an exs24 there would be no
problem"
 skwawksoun says, "sorry I'll say that again .a lite es1 bundled with it
would be
good "
 oink says, "right brett and jan, lets KISS"
 BetaBrett wonders what the kiss emoticon is
 oink says, "well , for instance, the EXS filters  are quite extensive"
 remixqueen says, "?"
 oink says, "KISS= keep it simple stupid"
 remixqueen says, "who's stupid?"
 remixqueen says, "(-:"
 oink says, "actaully I think the deeper meaning is keep it simple and
stupid"
 BetaBrett says, "as long as it has a good beat"
 skwawksoun says, "KISSAS??"
 remixqueen says, "k . . .as long as it didn't mean what i thought it
meant at first"
 oink says, "skwawksoun: have you seen how deep the filter section on
EXS is ?"
 skwawksoun says, "no I dont know it yet"
 oink says, "well it nearly appraoches ES-1"
 skwawksoun says, "so i guess thats the answer"
 oink says, "Ok  basic waveform sample"
 oink says, "triangle ?"
 remixqueen says, "once we get a good way of sending exs24 samples
figured on rocket
i believe it will be the way to go"
 oink says, "yes, that will be good too"
 oink says, "quick and tasty :)"
 remixqueen says, "exactly"
 skwawksoun says, "thats sort of what i meant"
 remixqueen says, "and it's not going to break any serious musician's
bank"
 oink says, "like take-away indian food"
 remixqueen says, "ahh yes . . . . ."
 oink says, "but thats a separate issue to the general set thing"
 remixqueen says, "k"
 remixqueen says, "but i think a rocket set for exs24 would be the way
to go"
 oink says, "Ok we have 2pno, 2 drums, 2basses"
 BetaBrett says, "yup"
 remixqueen says, "then u have the best of all worlds"
 skwawksoun says, "seeing as we trashed the guitar does that leave any
room"
 oink says, "sax"
 oink says, "horn sect"
 oink says, "what else ?"
 remixqueen says, "u can send your own samples and use a gm type set"
 oink says, "triangle wave"
 remixqueen says, "well everything u've talked about comes with the
basic exs24 CD"
 oink says, "yeh, but for a locked down freebie or very cheap
entry-level softsampler vsti"
 oink says, "so everyone has it"
 remixqueen says, "downloadable when they sign up with rocket?"
 BetaBrett has his doubts
 oink says, "something like that"
 oink says, "or just available"
 skwawksoun says, "it would promote rocket too if it was part of the
download"
 oink says, "a demo of sorts"
 remixqueen says, "so what is the basic problem with using the exs24?"
 remixqueen says, "does it not work with cubase?"
 oink says, "none, I was proposing a locked down free softsampler with
the basic set in it,
VSTi version of course"
 oink says, "like what sampletank have done with the piano"
 remixqueen says, "isee . .to promote rocket? who would sponser it?"
 oink says, "well it would be primarily a sales tool for the software
company"
 oink says, "but would make it so midi-users could communicate better on
rocket"
 oink says, "low-bandwidth users especially"
 remixqueen says, "emagic and steinberg have done the same for rocket
software now , correct?"
 remixqueen says, "the freedownload"
 oink says, "with logicRocket and CubasisInWire [for PC]"
 remixqueen says, "yes"
 oink says, "more than half the users have no access to cable or dsl, so
bandwidth can be an issue"
 skwawksoun says, "this is worth getting happening for "
 oink says, "and in really remote locations, will not have till 2007"
 oink says, "in 2007 everyone who can afford it will have bandwidth"
 oink says, "supposedly"
 skwawksoun says, "thats really only an issue for real time users dont
you ythink"
 oink says, "from sattellite"
 skwawksoun says, "i know thats wrongish"
 oink says, "no, not just realtime users"
 oink says, "cause for serious sessions we like to upload un-compressed
files for final
mix"
 oink says, "so that can be over 100mb in some cases"
 oink says, "but real-time use is imprtant too"
 oink says, "its not so much fun if you have to wait a long time for
downloads/uploads"
 skwawksoun says, "logicrocket just auto compresses doesn't ti"
 oink says, "yes, but with platinum"
 oink says, "you can post Source"
 oink says, "which is uncompressed"
 skwawksoun says, "yeah well 2 megs is about the edge of patience isn't
it"
 oink says, "and hopefully, sometime, lossless compression"
 oink says, "yes, 2mb is about the comfort limit for dial-up"
 skwawksoun says, "lossless compression is that like voodoo"
 oink says, "well lossless compression has been around for some time"
 oink says, "Emagic have Zap"
 skwawksoun says, "how?"
 oink says, "I don't know how the algorithms work"
 skwawksoun says, "voodoo!"
 oink says, "but you get back exactly what you put in"
 oink says, "do it compresses some parts of the data"
 skwawksoun says, "life!"
 oink says, "like zipped files"
 oink says, "hehe life indeed :)"
 skwawksoun says, "that common sound bank is a good idea .i haven't
played with midi
on rocket yet"
 oink says, "yes, and GM is so variable"
 oink says, "people like others to hear what they post exactly as they
intended"
 skwawksoun says, "the thing is you play the sound whether you
demo,,write or perform
you have to play the sound"
 skwawksoun says, "so it REALLY counts"
 skwawksoun says, "that its consistent"


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 Disclaimer: I have edited this chat substantially, but done my utmost
to maintain the sense of what was said. This is to be regarded as only a

precis of the actual chat, and any unforseen or contentious inference
that can be drawn form one line to the next, is purely unintentional on
my part, and cannot be attributed to the persons who posted the chat.

***********************************************************************

Dave Eager [oink]