The Logic Off Topic list

This past Wednesday in Audio Round-Table we discussed pre-mastering our
mixes. When to limit and , what we use for EQ and compression. Then, we
moved on to discussion of commercial arrangements for sessions on
rocketnetwork, and how we want to deal with payment and trust issues in
the future.

The session was attended by LennieJ, mojen, Dave, BetaBrett, remixqueen,
DJ-Allard, societynon and oink.
The following is a heavily edited summary of the forum chat:

 oink says,  "ok , then , to get the ball rolling"
 oink says,  "can i have a show of hands.."
 oink says,  "who uses Waves plugins ?"
 mojen  raises hand
 remixqueen says, "occasionally but only on my DAE machine"
 oink says,  "who uses T-racks ?"
 Dave  does also
 mojen says, "mojen raises hand"
 oink says,  "who uses Ionizer ?"
 oink says,  "no-one I guess"
 Dave says, "whazat?"
 oink says,  "Arboretum Ionizer is a multiband EQ etc that allows you to
'steal' EQ curves from other recordings"
 oink says,  "and does EQ-morphing and a whole bunch of other neat
stuff"
 oink says,  "any other favourites for putting that finishing gleam on
our audio gems ?"
 mojen says, "waveburner, sometimes"
 oink says,  "waveburner-pro ?"
 mojen says, "it has a nice multi-band compressor that they haven't put
in logic yet."
 LennieJ says, "I"
 oink says,  "yes, that will be nice in 5.0"
 mojen says, "And also a denoiser that's not bad if you don't have
anything else."
 oink says,  "Ok , then I'd like to mine the collected wisdom of the
group"
 oink says,  "and ask what you feel about Limiting before the final mix,
and after ?"
 oink says,  "any  takers ?"
 LennieJ says, "depends on the material "
 Dave says, "totaly"
  mojen says, "i usually don't limit until the final mix."
  oink says,  "lest say a on a  dense mix with lots of horns and synths
and stuff"
  LennieJ says, "I try not to limit at all"
  Dave says, "some tracks get some compression, or limiting ... but not
the whole mix, for me"
  LennieJ says, "same here Dave"
  mojen says, "i'll use a compressor/limiter on the final mix to squeeze
the last few db's out of the
overall volume, especially if it's going to mp3"
  Dave says, "I just switch between the best mastered disc I have that
is similar to the material, without any mastering ... and try to get it
as close as I can..."
  mojen says, "ditto here on that technique as well"
  Dave says, "then I run it all thru my Aphex, with big bottom (girth
baby)"
  Dave says, "Anyone use BBE, or Aphex for tracking or mastering?"
  LennieJ says, "BBE is cool"
  LennieJ says, "Ive tried that but dont use it reg"
  LennieJ says, "adds a nice sparkle"
  LennieJ says, "how about spectrum analylisers?"
  mojen says, "I just got the PSP plugins, and there is a stereo
analyzer amongst the bunch.  I've only used it a few times, but it's
helpful."
  oink says,  "I haven't used that yet, but I like the mixsaturator"
  Dave says, "how does one use a spectrum analyser in mastering? What do
you look for?"
  mojen says, "the psp plugins are quite impressive, especially when you
consider the price"
  oink says,  "thats what  I wanna know too, usually I can hear if a
certain range is over the top, and the
analyser just confirms it"
  oink says,  "I've only used spectrum anyalyser to try and save some
distorted harp which sounds crap"
  LennieJ says, "U get an iteresting mix by flatlining every freq"
  LennieJ says, "he he"
  LennieJ says, "& then limit it all"
  LennieJ says, "bringing up all the buried frquencies"
  LennieJ says, "Use the graphic EQ ta bring up the buried freq"
  LennieJ says, "I dont know if U can do it within logic"
  oink says,  "you could, with fat EQ"
  oink says,  "that is the sort of process that Ionizer is excellent for
though"
  LennieJ says, "yes but as U bring up the buried freq U have to turn
the other  down"
  LennieJ says, "or U wind up with way to much gain"
  oink says,  "well fat EQ is very customisable"
  LennieJ says, "so an EQ with gain control  is what I used for that"
  oink says,  "i don't know how close to   Q10 it gets though"
  LennieJ says, "but it usually fixes a lot of thinge U couldnt get EQ
right on individual tracks"
  LennieJ says, "for a quick fix hehe"
  oink says,  "how many of you got the PSP plugs ?"
  mojen raises hand
  oink says,  "I did too"
  oink says,  "are you using the presets ?"
  mojen says, "i used the presets as a starting point to figure out
exactly what all the knobs mean.  now i'm starting to create my own.
i've only had the plugins for about a week."
 oink says,  "yeh, i didn't realise there were any presets at first"
  oink says,  "how would you compare them to waves plugs /"
  oink says,  "?"
  mojen says, "the psp plugins have a distinct "sound", where the waves
plugins are more transparent.  but i happen to dig that "sound," so i'm
loving them! "
  oink says,  "yeh, the sound reminds me a little of T-Racks too, but
clearer"
  mojen says, "i was never really happy with t-racks.  it's probably
just me, but i couldn't ever get the sound i was looking for out of it."

  oink says,  "yeh, T-Racks takes alot of tweeking "
  mojen says, "i'm still waiting for the "perfect mix" preset:  just
click and go."
  oink says,  "well i fooled around trying to do that with Ionizer"
  mojen says, "and?"
  oink says,  "load prince album as the source"
  oink says,  "oh i think it takes a lot of experience to get the
eq-morphing thing right"
  oink says,  "it works, but you have to be very careful choosing
source"
  oink says,  "what it is good for though, is acheiving consistency over
an album"
  oink says,  "find which track you want the lot to sound most like and
apply the curves to the rest"
  mojen says, "how would you compare ionizer to the other products you
mentioned?"
  oink says,  "free-filter sorta does the same, but ionozer is way more
advanced"
  oink says,  "well I'd much rather use Ionizer than   Q10"
  oink says,  "for overall EQ curve  adjustment"
  oink says,  "but   Q10 is good for individual tracks i think"
  mojen says, "how do you use the standalone hyperprism?  is it a pain
to exit logic and go back and forth?"
  oink says,  "no its not a pain, but i use hyperprism mainly as a
sound-design tool"
  mojen says, "would the effects be useful as vst plugins?"
  oink says,  "take a sample into hyperprism and hit it with as much as
i can get away with, and bring it back to logic for loops and stuff"
  oink says,  "oh its a very creative tool"
  oink says,  "especially teh pitch-time plug"
  oink says,  "you have a number of parameters assined to X and Y axes"
  oink says,  "and draw the pass with your mouse"
  oink says,  "all customisable"
  mojen says, "i'm downloading the demo...  it all sounds very cool."
  oink says,  "and then you can layer the effects"
  oink says,  "then you can save that to be applied to another sound
file"
  oink says,  "ok i guess this subject is at a dead end"


  oink says,  "is there anything you guys would rather discuss ? like
getting people to commit to finishing collaborations ?"
  oink says,  "lennie, you do pretty well getting collab sessions
finished"
  oink says,  "do you have any special tips ?"
  LennieJ says, "Hmmm  not really "
  mojen says, "bribes? "
  oink says,  "or is just beeing logged in all the time the thing ?"
  mojen says, ";-)"
  oink says,  "i wonder what we can do to make thes things pan out
better"
  LennieJ says, "well I just invite the peops who I think would like the
tune"
  oink says,  "should I start being the man-with-the-whip-for-hire"
  oink says,  "'did you do your homework yet ?"
  oink says,  "NO!, well no new sessions for you today !"

  LennieJ says, "if U log in & nap in a session  someone will show up he
he"
  DJ-Allard says, "true"
  mojen says, "lennie, are you using your collaborative recordings
commercially?"
  LennieJ says, "yes some of the private sessions "
  mojen says, "how do you negotiate payment?"
  LennieJ says, "by giving a share of the rights"
  oink says,  "ah, well that is purely a private matter at the moment"
  LennieJ says, "I cant see any other way ta do it at this time"
  mojen says, "do you fax or e-mail contracts?  "
  oink says,  "but we have discussed ,in this forum, whether there
should be an escrow company involved"
  LennieJ says, "nope  its an honour system he he"
  oink says,  "well, pay-per-track is another alternative"
  LennieJ says, "I plan on sending socan documents to all "
  LennieJ says, "just a agreement as to how rights are divided"
  oink says,  "but at the moment its all on the never-never, which means
rights when the project comes to fruition"
  mojen says, "so the collaborators will be paid when you get paid?
something like that?"
  LennieJ says, "well yes  obviously all contributions cant always be
used"
  LennieJ says, "ya thats basically it mojen"
  LennieJ says, "if I make money they make it too"
  mojen says, "Here's an example for me:  i'm scoring a short film right
now.  if i wanted one of you folks to work on a piece, there are no
rights to be shared.  it is strictly a work for hire.  would you work on
it and then wait for me to mail you a check?"
  oink says,  "yes"
  oink says,  "we would do that"
  LennieJ says, "I prob would "
  oink says,  "and trust you"
  oink says,  "but we feel we know you"
  mojen says, "ah, the trust factor"
  LennieJ says, "well ya  U ve been around for a while  "
  LennieJ says, "& on a pay per track basis  theres not a whole lot of
money he he"
  oink says,  "we need a method of official record though"
  oink says,  "some record of arrangements"
  DJ-Allard says, "That would be sensible"
  LennieJ says, "so  trust is easy "
  DJ-Allard says, "Trust is never easier........."
  mojen says, "but there is no official method in the non-cyber world.
i think it must just come down to trust."
  oink says,  "well , true"
  DJ-Allard says, "Its the only way"
  oink says,  "paper contracts aren't always honest or enforcable"
  mojen says, "And checks bounce."
  DJ-Allard says, "theres always flaws with any system"
  oink says,  "sure"
  oink says,  "so its good policy for you to be able to ask someone else
you know if user X seems legit or not"
  mojen says, "but if you get a private studio and use who you trust
(just like you would in your non-virtual studio), then you should be ok,
right?"
  DJ-Allard says, "Users could also give feedback on other users, which
could then be included in the personel profiles"
  oink says,  "maybe we can have our own jargon"
  LennieJ says, "well U cant go putting + or- beside someones icon he
he"
  oink says,  "yeh, I man having ratings in writing could open up a
legal can of worms"
  DJ-Allard says, ".......true"
  oink says,  "but if you had a friend, or friends"
  oink says,  "who use the system a lot"
  LennieJ says, "thats trouble   discrimination & all"
  oink says,  "they could give you some clues"
  LennieJ says, "yup"
  LennieJ says, "I have  found Im only workin with 3 or 4 peops in that
serios kind of a way"
  oink says,  "anyway, networking is key"
  mojen says, "it seems like the seriuos folks are too busy making music
to cause trouble"
  oink says,  "you gotta be able to have a community so you can get to
know these things"
  DJ-Allard says, "I think if you can build a good relationship with the
people you work with, i.e phone calls,  meet up, etc, it gives you more
trust in them"
  oink says,  "yes, but phone calls can get expensive"
  DJ-Allard says, "International maybe"
  oink says,  "we wanna be able to do it all within this domain"
  DJ-Allard says, "well it obviously depends on distance"
  LennieJ says, "well the messaging works pretty good"
  LennieJ says, "still not that personal though"
  oink says,  "video conferencing too"
  DJ-Allard says, "web cams"
  oink says,  "is much more personal"
  oink says,  "like iVisit"
  mojen says, "web cams might scare poeple away"
  DJ-Allard says, "I might come to think of it"


***********************************************************************
 Disclaimer: I have edited this chat substantially, but done my utmost
to maintain the sense of what was said. This is to be regarded as only a

precis of the actual chat, and any unforseen or contentious inference
that can be drawn form one line to the next, is purely unintentional on
my part, and cannot be attributed to the persons who posted the chat.

***********************************************************************

Dave Eager [oink]

This past Wednesday in Audio Round-Table we discussed payment and hiring
issues  for session players and producers on rocketnetwork, and what
arrangements could be made to foster a social scene for meeting new
players better. We also touched on EXS24 and EVP88 for the few users who
were not yet enjoying these marvels :)

The session was attended by LennieJ, drumboy, butchjones, BetaBrett,
remixqueen,
DJ-Allard, xiabram, MixMasterMark and oink.
The following is a substantially edited summary of the forum chat:


 remixqueen says, "so oink can we start ?"
 BetaBrett says, "let's..."
 oink says, "OK , welcome everyone"
 oink says, "I have set 2 topics tonight"
 oink says, "Softsynths, because the functionality has changed since
4.7"
 oink says, "and arrangements for hiring session players on rocket,
cause that is becoming more of an issue lately, as to where we need to
go"
 remixqueen says, "well who is using rocket for session work . . i know
I'm using it for co-writing?"
 oink says, "ok lets go to the sessions topic"
 oink says, "I think butch has a strong interest there"
 remixqueen says, "yes I'm interested to know about this"
 remixqueen says, "too"
 butchjones says, "you mean the session work stuff"
 remixqueen says, "i have only thought of a co-writing situation whereby
if money changes hands for the recording one gets paid . .like in the
real world"
 oink says, "yes"
 remixqueen says, "supposedly (-:"
 BetaBrett says, "btw.... check out DigiDesign's DigiProNet for actual
action around these issues..."
 LennieJ says, "well so far its been on a situation basis for me"
 oink says, "so we need a system to make that more easy on rocket"
 oink says, "especially for remote users"
 remixqueen says, "well who is going to pay?"
 remixqueen says, "and who is paying?"
 oink says, "well, also a system of record for future payments"
 butchjones says, "Currently trying to setup a NY base for xxxxxxx as
well as anyone else "
 oink says, "like sessions done on the expectation of gettin paid when
the producer does"
 butchjones says, "from what they say money for session players and
studio time is being wired directly into accounts"
 remixqueen says, "but that's between the producer and muso not rocket i
would have thought"
 oink says, "does xxxxxxx have a plan for a payment system ?"
 oink says, "well I don't think rocket needs get totally involved"
 oink says, "at all"
 remixqueen says, "no not at all"
 oink says, "but if a 3rd party were to come on board"
 remixqueen says, "it should be strictly between the producer and muso"
 butchjones says, "I talked with xxx from xxxxxxxx and that's how they
go about it for right now"
 butchjones says, "wire services"
 BetaBrett says, "DigiProNet is doing it as a service related to Rocket
but not delivered by Rocket"
 remixqueen says, "3rd party?"
 remixqueen says, "oink?"
 oink says, "well an escrow company"
 remixqueen says, "no it shouldn't have anything to do with rocket"
 butchjones says, "that's because they [xxxxx] want to keep it self
proprietary"
 oink says, "or someone who could be there to register agreements"
 remixqueen says, "no it should be between pro and mus"
 remixqueen says, "what should rocket get involved"
 remixqueen says, "a regular studio doesn't"
 remixqueen says, "which is what rocket really is"
 oink says, "well if there was a button on the webpage"
 oink says, "that would lead to commercial service providers"
 remixqueen says, "?"
 oink says, "cause we are in remote situations"
 oink says, "different unions etc."
 remixqueen says, "i think people who are looking for collaborators or
musicians can find them easily enough on rocket"
 remixqueen says, "i certainly have"
 oink says, "sure"
 BetaBrett says, "I think we should see Rocket as a behind-the-scenes
provider of code for collaboration - others will do the business of
music business.... that's my guess anyway"
 butchjones says, "might be nice to start building some kind of data
base when a person uses a musician where they can be rated by current
users"
 BetaBrett says, "but in the meantime.....  ;)"
 oink says, "there are people here available for sessions"
 remixqueen says, "and my agreement with everyone is exactly the same as
if they were in my "real"studio"
 oink says, "lots"
 remixqueen says, "but who would use them?"
 oink says, "but a lot want some framework for arranging payment etc."
 remixqueen says, "the session players . . . "
 remixqueen says, "but it's nothing to do with rocket . . . "
 remixqueen says, "session players have a union"
 oink says, "not for on-going collaborations so much"
 remixqueen says, "collabs are different"
 oink says, "but for quick 'one-timers'"
 remixqueen says, "they are writing"
 oink says, "yes, of course"
 remixqueen says, "well who do u know that is doing sessions on rocket?"

 oink says, "i know a few who want to"
 oink says, "but are wary"
 remixqueen says, "well don't we all (-:"
 oink says, "and i'm sure there will be individuals who want to hire
players"
 remixqueen says, "i'm sorry but that sounds like typical musi paranoia"

 butchjones says, "xxxxxxx has been doing them between @@@@@ and Calif"
 oink says, "especially private users who want a bit more pro-edge to
what they're working on"
 remixqueen says, "but is that not something they have sorted out
individually?"
 remixqueen says, "butch?"
 butchjones says, "they just did a horn date on Sat with players from
Earth Wind and Fire"
 remixqueen says, "and was rocket involved?"
 remixqueen says, "i thought rocket was a service"
 butchjones says, "The players and arranger were contacted by the Calif
engineer"
 remixqueen says, "not a collection agency"
 oink says, "its not a collection agency"
 remixqueen says, "good"
 drumboy says, "hi guys, i'm new to rocket but as a session drummer in
los angeles, i would love to be able to get some sort of payment for
programming drums on a track over this system for someone who would need
that service."
 butchjones says, "xxxxxxx pays directly to the producer or arranger i
believe"
 remixqueen says, "k"
 oink says, "never will be, I hope, but we are talking about the general
process of online sessions"
 remixqueen says, "well as i've said before why should it be any
different from the "outside" world?"
 remixqueen says, "u make an agreement"
 butchjones says, "agreed"
 remixqueen says, "phew (-:"
 oink says, "in real world there are plenty of private individuals who
want to hire session players to finish of their projects, this could be
a source of work for players  here"
 oink says, "if a producer or two could offer a service"
 remixqueen says, "so the people who want to work should avail
themselves of the public sessions"
 butchjones says, "that's why i think there should be some kind of
referral page along with ratings for players that have been used"
 remixqueen says, "that's the best way to see how someone plays and
thinks"
 oink says, "yes indeed"
 drumboy says, "and the people who need the musicians should too"
 remixqueen says, "good idea butch"
 BetaBrett says, "Butch... does AMG offer this stuff?"
 oink says, "spending time around the place sure helps"
 remixqueen says, "yes indeed (-:"
 drumboy has left the Session
 butchjones says, "no "
 BetaBrett says, "k"
 butchjones says, "they just gather all RIAA approved credits and post
them on their database"
 BetaBrett says, "ahhh"
 oink says, "a referral page would be good"
 oink says, "but there needs to be an umpire or something behind it"
 remixqueen says, "AMG is a good ref but a lot of indie records don't
make it there"
 butchjones says, "but if you keep checking through the played with
links you can find out what ever a player you're looking into has been"
 butchjones says, "that"
 oink says, "and not a lot of non-US records either"
 remixqueen says, "yes . .almost"
 oink says, "UK coverage is poor"
 butchjones says, "that's right but the best musicians do"
 butchjones says, "we would have to do some research because there must
be an eqiv service in Europe"
 oink says, "maybe not, i haven't found one"
 oink says, "except for band-register"
 oink says, "which isn't the same"
 oink says, "http://www.bandreg.com/"
 butchjones says, "i'm now trying to tap into a lot of the session
players that i work with in the studio here in NY to see how they feel
about this new tech"
 oink says, "they have a service you can pay for i think"
 butchjones says, "they're loving the idea but they are also waiting to
see about the payment plans"
 oink says, "so we need agents really"
 oink says, "on-line agents"
 oink says, "just dealing with rocket stuff"
 butchjones says, "not so sure"
 BetaBrett says, "hmmmm"
 butchjones says, "i think xxx's idea of making your deal with whoever
is going to play on the session then working out a wire transfer"
 oink says, "or at least a live body who has an on-line presence, who
can arrange things, suggest players , keep tabs ?"
 butchjones says, "one of the things to work on is finding a way"
 butchjones says, "to loose the mystique of who does what first"
 LennieJ says, "well its all pretty simple  if your going to hire
someone the odds are 99% its someone U have worked with before"
 butchjones says, "wire the money, play the gig first, get money first,
etc....."
 butchjones says, "gotta start working with people we trust"
 butchjones says, "also you can still deal with them thru the union"
 oink says, "yes , and we need someone who can be a 'rabbi', who can
gently hint if they know a user might be full of ****"
 BetaBrett says, "lol"
 butchjones says, "that's part of the ratings page if it can happen"
 oink says, "cause its a good platform for spammers"
 butchjones says, "person is bad he gets listed as badddddd"
 LennieJ says, "the ratings page is a big can of worms "
 butchjones says, "not a good platform if they're in the union tho"
 oink says, "ratings page can be a bit difficult at first, if we have a
small userbase"
 LennieJ says, "U cant put rocket users into classes"
 oink says, "people could get political"
 butchjones says, "it's not classifying them"
 oink says, "personal friendships could come into play"
 butchjones says, "and we know about friends in the studio :-) "
 oink says, "wheras a few individuals who are online all the time and
keep tabs on whats going on"
 oink says, "rabbis if you will, could be more impartial"
 BetaBrett says, "the only true filters are our own experiences - like
in the real world"
 oink says, "because their reputations would depend on being fair"
 remixqueen says, "i hate to be the harbinger of doom but i think all of
this is a bit pie in the sky . . the only way i would ever use someone
is on recommendation . .  . and name experience . . "
 BetaBrett says, "that's right on jan"
 remixqueen says, "i co-write with a lot of people on rocket"
 oink says, "well in every city there is a microcosm of a 'session
scene' or 'music scene' , but individuals would have to spend a lot of
time on-line to become part of that sort of scene on a global basis"
 remixqueen says, "and play in public sessions to see who's around and
to "shock horror" play some music occasionally (-:"
 remixqueen says, "because i enjoy it  . . . ."
 oink says, "yeh, but trust and positive experience will grow the
system"
 oink says, "jan has a good line on a lot of good players here"
 oink says, "probably the best"
 remixqueen says, "oh gosh i should say so . . ."
 remixqueen says, "incredible collabs"
 oink says, "when we have 20 or 30 'jans' around the place"
 butchjones says, "that's how it begins"
 oink says, "it will grow on its own strength"
 butchjones says, "being able to listen to each other"
 oink says, "well we have to push push push for community"
 remixqueen says, "yes butch"
 remixqueen says, "and yes oink"
 butchjones says, "and hear what's being played goes along way with
recommending those players too"
 oink says , "yes it does, and IRL that is in clubs"
 oink says, "well trust needs community"
 remixqueen says, "can we have lounges please"
 BetaBrett says, "yup, jan"
 remixqueen says, "like we used to in the studio days"
 remixqueen says, "thanx"
 oink says, "yes lounges"
 remixqueen says, "coffee and tea?"
 remixqueen says, "can we talk about soft synths and midi situation type
4 in a mo please?"
 oink says, "ok midi situation type 4 is a Unified midi engine error"
 remixqueen says, "yes . .i'm getting a lot of those"
 oink says, "which can be avoided if you turn off UME"
 remixqueen says, "4.72"
 remixqueen says, "well that's the last thing i want to do "
 oink says, "but you lose the functionality"
 remixqueen says, "so what is the reason for these errors?"
 remixqueen says, "512 ram"
 remixqueen says, "dual g4"
 remixqueen says, "should be able to handle it"
 oink says, "i don't know, but some sort of conflict between UME and the
way youre doing midi"
 remixqueen says, "oh"
 remixqueen says, "what could that be?"
 oink says, "in the readme emagic have stated they would like some
feedback on when people get these sort of errors"
 remixqueen says, "ok i'll pay more attention and report it"
 remixqueen says, "thanx"
 oink says, "are you using OMS ?"
 remixqueen says, "no"
 oink says, "oh hang on, are you using autoloads created in older
versions ?"
 BetaBrett says, "good point"
 oink says, "i had those errors on 4.7 till I rebuilt my autoload"
 remixqueen says, "hmm poss  . .i'll redo them if that's the case"
 oink says, "never get them now"
 oink says, "touch wood"
 remixqueen says, "k "
 remixqueen says, "thanx"
 remixqueen says, "always good advice"
 oink says, "did you only get them on audioinstruments ?"
 remixqueen says, "seems that way"
 oink says, "have you got them when you had no softs ?"
 remixqueen says, "hardly use the midi rack anymore (-:"
 remixqueen says, "so hard to tell"
 oink says, "it might pay to just replace the audioinstrument objects
when you open an older song"
 remixqueen says, "k"
 oink says, "save the settings first as a preset"
 oink says, "the delete the object and create a new one"
 oink says, "worth trying"
 remixqueen says, "k thanx"
 oink says, "just off the top of my head"
 remixqueen says, "your auto load theory makes the most sense  . . "
 oink says, "butch: are you using softsynths much ?"
 butchjones says, "not yet"
 oink says, "EXS is very handy on rocket"
 remixqueen says, "i think it's the best way to work on rocket"
 butchjones says, "have to check it out"
 remixqueen says, "snap "
 remixqueen says, "and the little freebie vst insts are great too"
 remixqueen says, "the mda piano is great for writing"
 butchjones says, "gotta an early session tomorrow so hope i get to talk
with evrybody again next Wed"
 oink says, "I have a yen for the full version of absynth"
 remixqueen says, "of course the evp88 is a dream come true (-:"
 butchjones says, "thanks for the invite"
 remixqueen says, "bye butch"
 BetaBrett says, "cya butch, take care"
 oink says, "great butch, thanks for coming :)"
 remixqueen says, "bye"
 oink says, "bye"
 butchjones has left the Session
 xiabram says, "i dont use them much"
 xiabram says, "somtimes though should use them more"
 oink says, "but you have a rhodes etc. don't you X ?"
 xiabram says, "no only a  triton pro X"
 xiabram says, "and a JD800"
 MixMasterMark says, "you  can do that on the triton  x"
 xiabram says, "thats it here"
 oink says, "well EVP88 would be cool for you"
 xiabram says, "yes it would"
 oink says, "it loves a weighted kb"
 xiabram says, "and i love piano"
 oink says, "only EP, but lovely"
 xiabram says, "yes iv'e heard"
 oink says, "dynamics are so much better than layered samples"
 xiabram says, "how much is it?"
 xiabram says, "cost"
 oink says, "I'll check, i dunno the US cost"
 xiabram says, "i've heard demos of it sounds wonderful"
 xiabram says, "i'm still kinda worried about doing things internally"
 xiabram says, "i still like having dedicated units"
 oink says, "ok I got a rrp of $199"
 BetaBrett says, "EVP88 as low as 169$US i've heard"
 oink says, "i guess it could be less"
 xiabram says, "wow i thought it was more"
 xiabram says, "that's well worth looking into"
 oink says, "well if you are worried about doing things internally, just
take a pointer from those of us who have both and just get too slack to
go to the external devices"
 oink says, "cause its so easy to just grab a soft"
 BetaBrett says, "I always wonder about that - grabbing an external midi
device is sooooooo easy in logic"
 xiabram says, "it just seems to me that already when im doing audio and
processing that to start doing samplers and synths just gonna be one
more thing that can go wrong"
 oink says, "i have to keep kicking myself to use that hardware more
often"
 oink says, "well not really, the same things go wrong with both"
 BetaBrett says, "Am i the only one here who still mixes on a hardware
desk????"
 oink says, "its not a cumulative effect"
 xiabram says, "no i use a hard wear desk"
 BetaBrett says, "whew!"
 BetaBrett says, "i feel better now"
 xiabram says, "a small one"
 xiabram says, "makie 1604"
 remixqueen says, "no brett i still use a "line mixer" which is what my
dear old mackies have become (-:"
 oink says, "hehe"
 xiabram says, "yeah"
 BetaBrett says, "ahhh yes... i use a 32 4-bus and love it"
 BetaBrett says, "mackie"
 xiabram says, "its nice to touch something"
 remixqueen says, "yes i have the 8 bus and they rocked"
 xiabram says, "hehe"
 BetaBrett says, "mmmmmmmm yummy, 8bus"
 remixqueen says, "even had the sidecars"
 BetaBrett says, "sweet"
 xiabram says, "id like to find some neve channels"
 remixqueen says, "oh yes please"
 xiabram says, "like 2"
 oink says, "but sequencers are only just coming up to speed with bus
arrangements"
 BetaBrett says, "hooked up to a mackie 8bus"
 remixqueen says, "guys . .have to finish my remix . .great chatting see
y'all next week"
 BetaBrett says, "cya jan - die well!"
 oink says, "thanks for joining us jan :)"
 remixqueen says, "hehe bye"
 oink says, "cya :)"
 xiabram says, "ciao"
 oink thanks eveyone for coming"


***********************************************************************
 Disclaimer: I have edited this chat substantially, but done my utmost
to maintain the sense of what was said. This is to be regarded as only a

precis of the actual chat, and any unforseen or contentious inference
that can be drawn form one line to the next, is purely unintentional on
my part, and cannot be attributed to the persons who posted the chat.

***********************************************************************

Dave Eager [oink]




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

This past Wednesday in Audio Round-Table we discussed how midi could be
used more effectively on rocketnetwork if everyona had access to an
identical and predictable instrument set to use for basic songwriting
tools.

The session was attended by BetaBrett, Lennie, Robert_Matichak,
remixqueen, EB, onlinesupp-dazeI, skwawksoun, mojen, MixMasterMark and
oink.
The following is a substantially edited summary of the forum chat:


 oink says, "we had a discussion a while back "
 oink says, "where we agreed it might be good to propse a general set of
instruments to
replace GM for rocket users"
 oink says, "like to approach a software company to produce a free or
low-cost locked version of
their soft-sampler which we could all use"
 oink says, "for drums and basses and keys etc"
 oink says, "stuff for songwriters mainly"
 skwawksoun says, "cheap exs lite with upgrade possibility"
 oink says, "yes, something like that"
 oink says, "with quality samples, but a limited set"
 oink says, "no gunshots and odd synths"
 oink says, "cause GM is just not working round here"
 oink says, "and we still have a lotta users on dial-up"
 BetaBrett says, "yup"
 BetaBrett says, "a LOT"
 oink says, "so it would be good to re-invigorate midi a bit"
 oink says, "wel I think, in australia, there are like only 10 or 20
thousand people
who are on cable"
 oink says, "well midi would be a lot better served through an
audioinstrument, as it
stands"
 BetaBrett says, "true enuf"
 oink says, "cause , absolutely , midi has a back seat now"
 skwawksoun says, "i'm just finding it"
 oink says, "because GM is so variable, and low quality"
 oink says, "so any takers to work on getting a proposal together ?"
 skwawksoun says, "yeah you get over gm sounds pretty quick as a newuser
but samples
are hard to jump into at first"
 BetaBrett says, "Oink - outline your main points"
 oink says, "a limited set isn't too hard"
 oink says, "OK. point1 GM is dead and not of sufficient quality for
most rocket users"
 oink says, "point 2 GM lacks sufficient variation in the instruments
that matter,
basses, drums, keys"
 oink says, "point 3 lots of rocket users are on dialup and need
low-bandwidth option
for general rythm stuff, if they are writing songs"
 oink says, "point4 a locked down general-use set version of a
soft-sampler plugin would
be a good demo for the company that makes it"
 oink says, "and introduce a fast and consistent basis for rocket users
to get on with
sessions"
 skwawksoun says, "consistency is a BIG point"

 oink says, "I just wonder what you guys think about what sort of
instruments you would
need on such a 'general rocket set' ?"
 skwawksoun says, "be nice if it had a good baritone"
 skwawksoun says, "or is that going to far"
 BetaBrett says, "baritone marimba? (hehe)"
 oink says, "well , its up to all you  guys, and others, to put forward
what you think"
 skwawksoun says, "baritone ice rain"
 oink says, "what your needs are"
 oink says, "size will be an issue"
 mojen says, "isn't it always?  ;-)"
 Lennie says, "well everyone is goin to have different needs"
 oink says, "so whatever list we get will probably have to be cut by
half"
 Lennie says, "I think its a matter of how stripped down is the set to
be"
 oink says, "but some instruments could have different zones with
different
instruments"
 BetaBrett says, "The common instrument should be meat and potatoes...
users augment
them with audio - let's be practical"
 oink says, "yes, thats it"
 Lennie says, "yup   bass drums pianos & strings he he"
 BetaBrett says, "right"
 skwawksoun says, "how big are exs samples"
 oink says, "yeh, what do you need to get on with the real stuff"
 BetaBrett says, "Most of the common instruments would probably get
replaced anyway -
used for composing and arranging"
 oink says, "ok most samples will be about 100k or less"
 oink says, "I think the thing is to have instruments that sound good
enough to get on
with, till you get that drummer or bassist or whatever lined up"
 oink says, "they should be crisp and clean and not mushy"
 oink says, "no synths are really required, as a other instruments can
have filters
applied"
 BetaBrett says, "Yeah - it's important to keep to practical limits
defined by the
need of the problem - easy collaboration"
 skwawksoun says, "less choice lean towards better sounds ,for the
inspiration"
 oink says, "so maybe we could start with half a dozen basses, elctric
pno, a nice
grand pno, string section pad [not lush though, that can be fixed in
fiters etc]"
 skwawksoun says, "what about sets for styles"
 oink says, "liek ahard rock set, acoustic set etc ?"
 skwawksoun says, "yeah"
 oink says, "yeh it needs to be kept basic"
 oink says, "otherwise they won't go for it"
 onlinesupp-dazeI says, "ambint set "
 oink says, "well ambient can be achieved with filters etc"
 onlinesupp-dazeI says, "kool"
 oink says, "but a strings pad, a synth pad and a 303 inst should cover
a lot"
 onlinesupp-dazeI says, "yes i agree"
 oink says, "steinberg already has the Universal Sound Module, which is
a big point of
thirs for using on rocket, or it was last year"
 oink says, "but you can't use it in Logic"
 oink says, "something based on the some other VSTi could be used by
everyone"
 oink says, "and the USM is pretty big"
 oink says, "too big to download for most"
 oink says, "81mb, would you beleive"
 oink says, "I think, we need something no bigger than 10mb or less"
 oink says, "maybe 15mb on the outside"
 oink says, "so we'd have to be very prudent with long samples"
 oink says, "any more ideas on instruments ?"
 skwawksoun says, "sax"
 BetaBrett says, "keep it simple - otherwise you re-invent the wheel"
 oink says, "OK, a sax could cover zones"
 skwawksoun says, "like sax sections"
 BetaBrett says, "but sax of course!"
 oink says, "from bari to tenor to soprano"
 skwawksoun says, "yeah"
 BetaBrett says, "never heard a sax section i liked ;)"
 BetaBrett says, "if you mean sampled as a section that is"
 oink says, "i don't think alto would come into play much"
 BetaBrett says, "BOO!"
 skwawksoun says, "sorry i meant i like the sound of a few saxes playing
together"
 BetaBrett says, "horn section is required or I take my marbles and go
home!"
 Lennie says, "Hmmm  its straying from stripped down already he he"
 oink says, "the brass sesction in yamaha's XG set isn't bad"
 oink says, "especially brass-fall"
 BetaBrett says, "speaking as a sax player, I can't agree..... (i'm just
playing
devil's advocate here...)"
 oink says, "ok a brass sect instrument and a sax instrument [including
alto]"
 oink says, "well ask me about harmonica in synths"
 skwawksoun says, "done"
 oink says, "no one has come even close yet"
 mojen says, "how about a user-selectable configuration of instruments
to download?"
 oink says, "virtual-melodica is as close as they get"
 BetaBrett says, "don\ufffdt need a harmonica - most sax samples already
sound like
harmonica!"
 oink says, "well user-selectable sorta goes against the idea of a
general set"
 oink says, "yeh, harmonica isn't needed"
 mojen says, "i mean, meat & potatoes are included, but sax or whatever
is an option"
 oink says, "besides, harmonica just puts icing on the cake"
 BetaBrett says, "You will have to be hella severe, Oink, to make this
viable ;)"
 oink says, "mojen, they will want to sell the full retail version to
anyione who wants more"
 oink says, "besides we are talking a general instrument so midi is more
viable here"
 oink says, "a substitute for GM"
 oink says, "something absolutely constant"
 mojen says, "good point...  don't mind me"
 oink says, "it will be up to the software company if they want to make
an expanded version as an
extra step up to the full versions out now"
 oink says, "but that could be viable too"
 oink says, "like the way Bitheadz do specific versions of Unity for
piano and drums
etc"
 oink says, "but not our brief really"
 oink says, "ok how many basses ?"
 skwawksoun says, "one precision"
 oink says, "and an upright"
 skwawksoun says, "finger/pick"
 oink says, "fretless ?"
 BetaBrett says, "yes, fretless"
 skwawksoun says, "fretless=upright almost"
 BetaBrett says, "no way"
 mojen says, "why not just base it on the meat & potatoes of the GM
set?"
 BetaBrett says, "right - it would turn into that anyway :)"
 skwawksoun says, "o.k "
 oink says, "I think the funk bases could be, well lets see where GM
falls down ?"
 oink says, "the funk basses can be a bit hard in GM"
 mojen says, "GM falls down in many, many ways and it can't get up"
  BetaBrett says, "lol"
oink says, "but a soft sampler offers more options with filters and
stuff"
 oink says, "so a thumb-bass or pick bass could be made funky"
 skwawksoun says, "there's alot in slapping "
 oink says, "yeh, but for good stuff you still need to get a bassist.
were just talking
framework tracks which can be a guide, but which dont make you puke"
 remixqueen says, "there are some great freebie vst insts already out
there"
 remixqueen says, "mda piano"
 remixqueen says, "vb bass"
 oink says, "yes, actually, for bass, the VB-1 covers quite a bit"
 remixqueen says, "i'm just trying the sampletank piano"
 oink says, "Ok so we keep basses to a minimum"
 oink says, "maybe 4 plus a 303 ?"
 skwawksoun says, "thats enough for an album"
 oink says, "drums..."
 oink says, "now theres an area that could be improved"
 skwawksoun says, "a little kit an a big kit"
 oink says, "yes"
 remixqueen says, "ok got it to work!!!!"
 BetaBrett says, "!"
 remixqueen says, "not bad sounding for a freebie"
 remixqueen says, "or definitely great for writing on rocket"
 remixqueen says, "sorry the freebie sampletank acoustic piano"
 oink says, "Ok then, just a rhodes, and a basic pno for our set then,
or should EP be
a wurli ?"
 skwawksoun says, "hohner hehe"
 BetaBrett says, "how am I gonna share my john cage pieces?"
 oink says, "Ok treated piano too :)"
 BetaBrett says, "lol"
 oink says, "ok so two pianos"
 skwawksoun says, "a rhodes is a seperate sort of inst so y not
rho/stand/wurli"
 oink says, "ok"
 oink says, "i just wonder if a wurli would be used as much"
 oink says, "personally i love wurli"
 BetaBrett says, "Come on - you're getting way to broad!"
 oink says, "but rhodes would be more general"
 BetaBrett says, "if i understand the agenda, that is"
 oink says, "yes"
 oink says, "anyway any set can be treated with filters too"
 oink says, "Ok 2 pianos"
 oink says, "standard and rhodes"
 oink says, "what else ?"
 oink says, "we don't want like 128 instruments"
 oink says, "maybe a dozen or so"
 oink says, "up to 20 I guess"
 oink says, "acoustic guitar"
 skwawksoun says, "funky clav"
 Lennie says, "how many instruments do U need to write a song?"
 oink says, "not many"
 Lennie says, "not produce 1  just write it"
 skwawksoun says, "well funky clav leads somewhere"
 oink says, "but you need to create a sound in the style you want"
 oink says, "we are talking mainly of low-bandwidth users geetting
meaningful stuff
done"
 oink says, "with midi"
 skwawksoun says, "gm guitar of any sort just does nothing for me"
 BetaBrett says, "but Oink... I thought the PRIMARY purpose was
COMMONALITY"
 BetaBrett says, "No?"
 Lennie says, "guitar samples are worse than sax!!!"
 oink says, "ok you can make funky clav out of rhodes with filters"
 skwawksoun says, "just doesn't happen"
 oink says, "yes commonality"
 remixqueen says, "call me old fashioned but there is a big differenece
between
writing a song and producing a track"
 skwawksoun says, "you a lite es1 would be nice bundles with it"
 Lennie says, "thats what Im tryin to get at Remix "
 oink says, "of course, but you guys know the level people want to be at
here"
 remixqueen says, "no what level?"
 oink says, "in public sessions they want to express style as well as
barebones
songwriting"
 remixqueen says, "so why can't they buy or download some vst insts?"
 BetaBrett says, "The inst set should be meat and potatoes for composing
and
arranging purposes augmented by audio - anything else will fail"
 oink says, "but if they learn the filters etc in the softsampler, ther
can be lots of variation"
 remixqueen says, "i mean if everyone owned an exs24 there would be no
problem"
 skwawksoun says, "sorry I'll say that again .a lite es1 bundled with it
would be
good "
 oink says, "right brett and jan, lets KISS"
 BetaBrett wonders what the kiss emoticon is
 oink says, "well , for instance, the EXS filters  are quite extensive"
 remixqueen says, "?"
 oink says, "KISS= keep it simple stupid"
 remixqueen says, "who's stupid?"
 remixqueen says, "(-:"
 oink says, "actaully I think the deeper meaning is keep it simple and
stupid"
 BetaBrett says, "as long as it has a good beat"
 skwawksoun says, "KISSAS??"
 remixqueen says, "k . . .as long as it didn't mean what i thought it
meant at first"
 oink says, "skwawksoun: have you seen how deep the filter section on
EXS is ?"
 skwawksoun says, "no I dont know it yet"
 oink says, "well it nearly appraoches ES-1"
 skwawksoun says, "so i guess thats the answer"
 oink says, "Ok  basic waveform sample"
 oink says, "triangle ?"
 remixqueen says, "once we get a good way of sending exs24 samples
figured on rocket
i believe it will be the way to go"
 oink says, "yes, that will be good too"
 oink says, "quick and tasty :)"
 remixqueen says, "exactly"
 skwawksoun says, "thats sort of what i meant"
 remixqueen says, "and it's not going to break any serious musician's
bank"
 oink says, "like take-away indian food"
 remixqueen says, "ahh yes . . . . ."
 oink says, "but thats a separate issue to the general set thing"
 remixqueen says, "k"
 remixqueen says, "but i think a rocket set for exs24 would be the way
to go"
 oink says, "Ok we have 2pno, 2 drums, 2basses"
 BetaBrett says, "yup"
 remixqueen says, "then u have the best of all worlds"
 skwawksoun says, "seeing as we trashed the guitar does that leave any
room"
 oink says, "sax"
 oink says, "horn sect"
 oink says, "what else ?"
 remixqueen says, "u can send your own samples and use a gm type set"
 oink says, "triangle wave"
 remixqueen says, "well everything u've talked about comes with the
basic exs24 CD"
 oink says, "yeh, but for a locked down freebie or very cheap
entry-level softsampler vsti"
 oink says, "so everyone has it"
 remixqueen says, "downloadable when they sign up with rocket?"
 BetaBrett has his doubts
 oink says, "something like that"
 oink says, "or just available"
 skwawksoun says, "it would promote rocket too if it was part of the
download"
 oink says, "a demo of sorts"
 remixqueen says, "so what is the basic problem with using the exs24?"
 remixqueen says, "does it not work with cubase?"
 oink says, "none, I was proposing a locked down free softsampler with
the basic set in it,
VSTi version of course"
 oink says, "like what sampletank have done with the piano"
 remixqueen says, "isee . .to promote rocket? who would sponser it?"
 oink says, "well it would be primarily a sales tool for the software
company"
 oink says, "but would make it so midi-users could communicate better on
rocket"
 oink says, "low-bandwidth users especially"
 remixqueen says, "emagic and steinberg have done the same for rocket
software now , correct?"
 remixqueen says, "the freedownload"
 oink says, "with logicRocket and CubasisInWire [for PC]"
 remixqueen says, "yes"
 oink says, "more than half the users have no access to cable or dsl, so
bandwidth can be an issue"
 skwawksoun says, "this is worth getting happening for "
 oink says, "and in really remote locations, will not have till 2007"
 oink says, "in 2007 everyone who can afford it will have bandwidth"
 oink says, "supposedly"
 skwawksoun says, "thats really only an issue for real time users dont
you ythink"
 oink says, "from sattellite"
 skwawksoun says, "i know thats wrongish"
 oink says, "no, not just realtime users"
 oink says, "cause for serious sessions we like to upload un-compressed
files for final
mix"
 oink says, "so that can be over 100mb in some cases"
 oink says, "but real-time use is imprtant too"
 oink says, "its not so much fun if you have to wait a long time for
downloads/uploads"
 skwawksoun says, "logicrocket just auto compresses doesn't ti"
 oink says, "yes, but with platinum"
 oink says, "you can post Source"
 oink says, "which is uncompressed"
 skwawksoun says, "yeah well 2 megs is about the edge of patience isn't
it"
 oink says, "and hopefully, sometime, lossless compression"
 oink says, "yes, 2mb is about the comfort limit for dial-up"
 skwawksoun says, "lossless compression is that like voodoo"
 oink says, "well lossless compression has been around for some time"
 oink says, "Emagic have Zap"
 skwawksoun says, "how?"
 oink says, "I don't know how the algorithms work"
 skwawksoun says, "voodoo!"
 oink says, "but you get back exactly what you put in"
 oink says, "do it compresses some parts of the data"
 skwawksoun says, "life!"
 oink says, "like zipped files"
 oink says, "hehe life indeed :)"
 skwawksoun says, "that common sound bank is a good idea .i haven't
played with midi
on rocket yet"
 oink says, "yes, and GM is so variable"
 oink says, "people like others to hear what they post exactly as they
intended"
 skwawksoun says, "the thing is you play the sound whether you
demo,,write or perform
you have to play the sound"
 skwawksoun says, "so it REALLY counts"
 skwawksoun says, "that its consistent"


***********************************************************************
 Disclaimer: I have edited this chat substantially, but done my utmost
to maintain the sense of what was said. This is to be regarded as only a

precis of the actual chat, and any unforseen or contentious inference
that can be drawn form one line to the next, is purely unintentional on
my part, and cannot be attributed to the persons who posted the chat.

***********************************************************************

Dave Eager [oink]

This past Wednesday in Audio Round-Table we discussed 'free softsynths
and softsamplers which
are both cross-platform and sufficient quality to be a standard for
collaboration'
And also disussed some logic techniques . like strip silence and
quantising audio regions.

The session was attended by BetaBrett, remixqueen,  skwawksoun, Jody and
oink.
The following is a substantially edited summary of the forum chat:




  Jody says, "my first round-table!!!"
  Jody says, "what's the topic tonight?"
  oink says,  "free softsynths and softsamplers which
are both cross-platform and sufficient quality to be a standard for
collaboration"
  Jody says, "hmmm..."
  Jody says, "I'm not aware of any free ones."
  oink says,  "for a start , there aint a lot of
cross-platform freebies"
  oink says,  "oh there are a few""
  oink says,  "quite a few, but usually either or"
   oink says,  "mac OR pc"
  Jody says, "right."
  oink says,  "not many are both"
  oink says,  "the sampletank free piano looks like it
qualifies"
  oink says,  "and mda piano"
  Jody says, "really?"
  Jody says, "where do you get them?"
  Jody says, "I grab it right now and plug it in."
  oink says,  "ok best places to start are
www.hitsquad.com/smm/"
  oink says,  "and www.kvr-vst.com"
  oink says,  "my list so far consists of ces synth1,
ces synth2,  ces synth5, sampletank free piano, mda piano [but I cant
get to the download],
loopazoid"
  oink says,  "muon tau. muon atom,"
  oink says,  "and from steinberg, VB-1
  Brett says, "Whew..."
  oink says,  "jan , do you have any other Xplatform
ones ?"
  remixqueen says, "aside from the ones that Sascha mentioned on the
list today no . ."
 oink says,  "what else did he mention, let me check"
 oink says,  "the thing is with things like loopazoid"
  remixqueen says, "i'm interested in a drum one
though . .i have been unscuccessful in finding one of those so have
reverted to using short audio
loops"
  oink says,  "is that they don't include a standard
sample set, as far as I can see"
  oink says,  "so that sorta disqualifies it, in a way"
  oink says,  "VB-1 is a good standard instrument"
  oink says,  "a lot of variation"
  oink says,  "the virtual analog synths are another
kettle of fish"
  oink says,  "I'm not sure they are really useful for
collaboration"
  oink says,  "what do you think jan ?"
  Jody says, "I can't get sampletank to play. :-("
  remixqueen says, "the dx10 i use all the time . .
  remixqueen says, "the ces synths seem unuseable in
the main"
  oink says,  "is the dx10 cross-platform ?"
   remixqueen says, "it's an mda plug in"
  Jody says, "never mind I just figured it out."
 Jody says, "can't have midi channel set to all."
  Jody says, "only allows 3 keys."
  Jody says, "sounds pretty good."
 oink says,  "have you got VB-1 ?"
 oink says,  "VB-1 is bass, get it from that hitsquad
link"
  Jody says, "hold on. I'll grab it."
  Jody says, "though I really prefer real bass."
  oink says,  "of course, but for MIDI collaboration,
thats what were looking at"
  oink says,  "songwriting etc"
   oink says,  "quick and easy for dialup users to
colaborate too"
  oink says,  "leave the audio for the most important
tracks"
  Jody says, "right."
  Jody says, "I like the reverb for sampletank."
  remixqueen says, "can someone explain about DAE,
TDM and rocket?"
  remixqueen says, "and soft synth compatability?"
  Brett says, "All I know is that TDM and non-TDM
aren't compatible... I'm saving my penies for a Mix Plus system"
  oink says,  "oh, you would need to get the TDM
bridge"
  remixqueen says, "and UTM vs split stereo files .
. i'm so confused recently as some users seem to have been posting with
split stereo files"
  oink says,  "OK with split stereo"
  oink says,  "if a song is UTM-off, you need 2channels
in the tracklist"
 oink says,  "they can be linked stereo channels"
  oink says,  "but the 2 channels must be present"
  remixqueen says, "right but when i first got on
rocket i wasa told it only worked using UTM"
  remixqueen says, "now i see so much split stuff"
 oink says,  "with utm-on, you can drop a split stereo
file on a regular stereo channel and it works fine"
  remixqueen says, "is it compatible with DAE now?"
  oink says,  "I don't know if DAE does interleaved or
not, it never used to"
  remixqueen says, "no it doesn't"
  remixqueen says, "so again i was told it wasn't
compatable when i became a rocketeer"
  remixqueen says, "but now i have seen people
posting using it"
  oink says,  "TDM and native sessions aren't all that
compatible, if tehy have TDM plugins, and if users don't know how to
handle UTM-off"
  remixqueen says, "right so how does the PT deal
work?"
  oink says,  "and of course , no VST plugs on TDM
sessions, till now"
  oink says,  "if they are using the TDM bridge"
  remixqueen says, "i thought there was a bridge 4
that?"
  remixqueen says, "ok"
  Jody says, "got the VB-1, working with the
sampletank piano."
  oink says,  "cool, they give a framework"
  Jody says, "put up a file so I can grab it. I'd
like to check something out with it."

  remixqueen says, "exs24 is incred"
  Jody says, "still waiting for my copy."
  remixqueen says, "worth the wait"
  oink says,  "OK, maybe I should try loopazoid"
  Jody says, "I'm also looking into Battery."
  Jody says, "I want to trigger it with midi data
from the V-drum."
 oink says,  "maybe if we gt standard set of samples
posted"

  Jody says, "any body know how to qantize the
objects in the arrange window?"
  remixqueen says, "?"
 oink says,  "in the event list"
  Jody says, "no"
  oink says,  "deselect all"
  oink says,  "open event list"
  remixqueen says, "highlight and use the left top
menu "
  oink says,  "select all"
  remixqueen says, "under midi thru"
  Jody says, "select the ones I want to qantize?"
  remixqueen says, "yes"
  oink says,  "yeh"
  remixqueen says, "and of course change the
quantize figure"
  Jody says, "doesn't work."
  Jody says, "darn."
  Jody says, "It's got a mind of it's own and only
quantizing two of the ones I'm not selecting."
  oink says,  "you are talkin about audio ?"
  Jody says, "I'm trying it on midi, but I'd like to
do it with audio objects."
  Jody says, "say like I cut up a loop or
something."
  oink says,  "with midi it quantises the content, but
not the actual sequence position"
  oink says,  "with audio it should work"
  oink says,  "import a drum file"
  oink says,  "a longish one"
  oink says,  "do 'strip silence'"
  Jody says, "trying it now. I'd like it if logic
could automatically slice it up."
  oink says,  "then go to the event list"
  oink says,  "select all those regions, and quantise
using the q button"
  oink says,  "you'll see em snap"
-  Jody says, "how do I work the strip silence?
forgive my ignorance."
-  oink says,  "logic does"
  oink says,  "audio window"
  oink says,  "select the audio region"
 oink says,  "options/strip silence"
  oink says,  "keycommand ctrlS"
  oink says,  "strip silence window will open"
  Jody says, "got it open, seems to miss the quiet
hits though."
  oink says,  "tweek the threshold and pre-attack
values till the splits look right"
  Jody says, "yup."
  oink says,  "try taking the thereshold down to 1"
  Jody says, "gotcha."
  Jody says, "I'm getting it now."
  Jody says, "I'm feeling like I just learned
something really good to know."
  Jody says, "that splicing and quantize of a loop."
  remixqueen says, "hi paul"
  Jody says, "thanks a bunch. Even after 5 years I
learn something new every time about Logic."
  oink says,  "Jody: strip silence aint ReCycle, but it
comes close"
  remixqueen says, "me too jody (-:"
 remixqueen says, "it's like a big video game (-:"
 Jody says, "and people think I know how to run
this program. :-)"
 Jody says, "I've never used recycle."
  Jody says, "is it better?"
 oink says,  "yeh I guess"
  oink says,  "though it only just went stereo"
  oink says,  "and strip-silence has been stereo for
years"
  Jody says, "I was curious about this cause I know
Pro Tools works this way and wanted logic to do it to."
  Jody says, "now I know."




***********************************************************************
 Disclaimer: I have edited this chat substantially, but done my utmost
to maintain the sense of what was said. This is to be regarded as only a

precis of the actual chat, and any unforseen or contentious inference
that can be drawn form one line to the next, is purely unintentional on
my part, and cannot be attributed to the persons who posted the chat.

***********************************************************************

Dave Eager [oink]

This past Wednesday in Audio Round-Table we touched on the relative
merits of various Audio I/O systems, and warnings about installing OSX
and its sffect on PACE authorisations , before getting down to the main
topic, which was 'hard drives, storage and backups'. Particularly we
shared opinions on what the best backup strategy is , and what should
our realistic expectaions be in archiving.

The session was attended by Timbook2, Brett, AWitt, DJ-Allard, LennieJ,
EB, oink, herman



The following is a substantially edited summary of the forum chat:

 oink says, "I'm still debating whether to get an 828 or not"
 oink says, "I notice at NAMM, aardvark announced a usb interface which
might be good for my powerbook"
 oink says, "so i could just go for a delta card or something for the
G4"
 Brett says, "what's the big debate in your head?"
 oink says, "or an EMI2/6 till I can afford something more powerful"
 Brett says, "stuff you need or don't need?"
 oink says, "need"
 Brett says, "cool enuf"
 oink says, "cause I think the 1212 will be history with OSX"
 Brett says, "1212 is already history"
 Timbook2 says, "forget osx as long as you can"
 oink says, "even now the 1212 drivers are getting a bit fractious"
 oink says, "too old"
 Brett says, "Logic on OS X coming soon!"
 Timbook2 says, "i don't go even near it with tweezers"
 Timbook2 says, "yes and all tdm-pace floppy installs are lost "
 oink says, "oh shit"
 Timbook2 says, "well poor emagic is being chased by all these new
things"
 oink says, "oh well  hang on I only have a few pace installs"
 oink says, "which don't work good anyway"
 oink says, "Orange vocoder and retroAS-1"
 Timbook2 says, "i already know some poor blokes who installed osx on
their protools rig"
 Timbook2 says, "lost all their installation instances"
 oink says, "well for PT that's an expensive loss"
 oink says, "but is that with OSX 10.1 beta ?"
 Timbook2 says, "any OSX will kill all your pace floppy installs"
 oink says, "dave B is pretty upbeat about it too"
 Timbook2 says, "but that still wont be a reason for me to infect my PT
rig with that killer hehe"
 Brett says, "PT will be last on OS X"
 Timbook2 says, "for sure....still many PT users on nubus"
 oink says, "you have a big investment to protect"
 Timbook2 says, "each of these plugins between 600-1000 $"
 oink says, "yes indeed"
 Timbook2 says, "i hear creamware hardware kicks protools ass these
days"
 Timbook2 says, "latency wise etc"
 oink says, "scope ?"
 Timbook2 says, "yes all these cards"
 oink says, "what about DSP power though ?"
 Timbook2 says, "yes dsp power is there but very expensive too"
 oink says, "surely PT still has the DSP edge"
 Timbook2 says, "not really"
 Timbook2 says, "you can build a similar power with creamware"
 oink says, "what about Paris and things like that ?"
 Timbook2 says, "its just not the standard PT is"
 oink says, "how do they compare ?"
 Timbook2 says, "i know a guy in nashville who swears on paris "
 Timbook2 says, "but that's about it"
 Timbook2 says, "nuendo is supposed to sound a lot better too"
 LennieJ says, "well lots think logic is just as good"
 oink says, "it will be interesting t see how the quality is with the
DSP version of  metric halo"
 Timbook2 says, "a friend ordered the MH box in april ...its still not
here"
 Timbook2 says, "they are not shipping it ...promised may ...now we have
august"
 oink says, "well, what's unusual about that ?"
 oink says, "it was years before they shipped scope, after they first
announced it"
 LennieJ says, "I sold all my PT sftw & hdwr he he"


 Timbook2 says, "do we have a topic then ?"
 oink says, "well  it was hard drives and storage and backups"
 Timbook2 says, "i have a good tip for all you scsi folks out there"
 Timbook2 says, "there is a company at www.scsi2ide"
 Timbook2 says, "that sells little adaptors that stick onto any ide
drive and make it scsi"
 LennieJ says, "harddrives & backups is a good topic"
 Timbook2 says, "and ide drives are cheap !"
 Timbook2 says, "60 gb ide drives go for 300 $"
 Timbook2 says, "or even less now"
 LennieJ says, "what is the most reliable add on hard drive?"
 Timbook2 says, "ibm IMO"
 Timbook2 says, "the deskstar models"
  oink says, "IBM for my money too"
 oink says, "actually I've stuck with IBM for a number of years now"
 LennieJ says, "deskstar is good oink already turned me on to them"
 Timbook2 says, "yes"
 LennieJ says, "what about scsi drives?"
 Timbook2 says, "another option is DDS 3 drives"
 Timbook2 says, "well no more scsi drives for me...too expensive"
 Timbook2 says, "they don't make the 50 pin models anymore"
 Timbook2 says, "and that's all i need here"
 oink says, "I think SCSI is only worth it for high track count and
video users these days"
 Timbook2 says, "for video yes"
 EB says, "i find my scsi drives pretty fast but not hugely different
from ide..but its important to remember they draw more power from the
psu"
 Timbook2 says, "for track count i prefer to spread them over many discs
anyway"
 Timbook2 says, "did anybody have a look at www.scsi2ide yet?"
 EB says, "yes im going to show ellis"
 EB says, "he's going to be sceptical im sure hehe"
 Timbook2 says, "its a german guy...young chap i know him"
 Timbook2 says, "I have it running since 2 months now and all is cool"
 EB says, "ok cool"
 LennieJ says, "K so your ata drives are gettin full"
 LennieJ says, "what's a good cheap alternative for perm storage"
 Timbook2 says, "buy a new drive"
 oink says, "i think that is cheapest these days"
 Timbook2 says, "or get a tape backup...very costly but most safe"
 LennieJ says, "K so U just plug em in & unplug em as U need "
 Timbook2 says, "DDS3 does 12 gb on 1 tape"
 oink says, "and its so easy to swap drives. Well there was a long
debate on DAT Vs CD on the lug list some time
back"
 Timbook2 says, "but costs a lot !!"
 Timbook2 says, "i don't like CD too much"
 Timbook2 says, "1st : it writes errors"
 Timbook2 says, "2nd you never know how long it lasts"
 Timbook2 says, "i have some 4 year old CDs that already have read
errors"
 Timbook2 says, "i never burned faster than 4x"
 oink says, "that's true"
 oink says, "but how old is your drive ?"
 Timbook2 says, "hehe very old "
 Timbook2 says, "one of the first yamahas"
 Timbook2 says, "i think model is 1000 or so"
 oink says, "very good drive though"
 Timbook2 says, "yep"
 Timbook2 says, "i still burn CDs of course but not for long term
safety"
 Timbook2 says, "long term safety is tape or just a drive I think"
 oink says, "but how long do you really need ?"
 Timbook2 says, "good question"
 Timbook2 says, "i try to make timeless music so I want it to last hehe"

 oink says, "do your client expect you archive for 10 years ?"
 LennieJ says, "well I tell them I will hold tapes or files for 5 yrs"
 Timbook2 says, "if i made hip hop or techno the tunes have a half life
of 1 month so who cares"
 oink says, "5 yrs seems reasonable"
 LennieJ says, "after that its their problem"
 Timbook2 says, "yes that's the time range CDs will hold too"
 Timbook2 says, "if you burn them nice and slow"
 oink says, "I had a lot of issues with removable media"
 oink says, "I definitely won't go there again"
 Timbook2 says, "i heard optical drives were pretty good"
 Timbook2 says, "but too expensive"
 oink says, "yes, optical drives are used a lot by the AV media"
 Timbook2 says, "others make their backups on adat tapes too"
 oink says, "and its interesting yamaha chose optical for their HDR
devices"
 oink says, "I would think ADAT would be no less risky than CD"
 Timbook2 says, "in germany post pro is done entirely on optical"
 LennieJ says, "adat is very reliable"
 LennieJ says, "if U put them away & don't touch em"
 Timbook2 says, "yes"
 Timbook2 says, "in a dry room"
 LennieJ says, "yup"
 oink says, "store them vertically"
 Timbook2 says, "still i think with prices for ide drives so low its
cheaper to just buy a swappable tray and move the drives"
 LennieJ says, "but the prob arises when U have a client who has done a
hard disc recording"
 LennieJ says, "& comes back 3 yrs later for a remix"
 oink says, "what about archiving on-line, do you think there might be a
place for that ?"
 oink says, "as bandwidth increases"
 Timbook2 says, "online storage is way too expensive "
 Timbook2 says, "pop in the drive and go "
 Timbook2 says, "dave walker and I just installed a hot swappable ide
drive into his G4"
 Timbook2 says, "into the Cd drive bay"
 LennieJ says, "that's what I was asking about perm reliable storage"
 Timbook2 says, "what a surgery"
 oink says, "cool"
 oink says, "firewire ?"
 Timbook2 says, "when we finally had it in there the blue plastic lid
wouldn't come back on..."
 Timbook2 says, "no ide"
 Timbook2 says, "i mean ata"
 Timbook2 says, "anyway we powered the baby up and booted logic....comes
he message EXS requires the CD
rom ....boooo"
 Timbook2 says, "no CD rom"
 oink says, "LOL"
 Timbook2 says, "i hate those G4 s"
 oink says, "well it looks like LA5 will have dongle authorisation"
 Timbook2 says, "i think they are a nightmare"
 LennieJ says, "U think G4s are a nightmare?"
 oink says, "my old beige G3/233, now that's a nightmare"
 Timbook2 says, "i will stay with my old 9500 as long as i can"
 Timbook2 says, "9600-350 s now go for 500 $"
 LennieJ says, "I was just lookin at trading up to the dual 850 he he"
 oink says, "yeh, but there are a lotta things that require G3 minimum"
 oink says, "softsynths and stuff"
 Timbook2 says, "well having taken apart the G4 with dave last week i
saw how flimsy it was built and how design reigned over practical needs"

 Timbook2 says, "i have a G3-450 in my 9500 and its still holding up to
the task"
 Timbook2 says, "surely not as fast as a G4 but then...."
 oink says, "oh 604 based macs are the last of the all hi-quality
machines for sure"
 oink says, "but if they had stayed on that road"
 oink says, "a new G4/800DP would cost more than a car"
 LennieJ says, "well your old G3 hangs in cause its a Mac"
 Timbook2 says, "right"
 Timbook2 says, "i think if i upgrade my mac situation i only go for
powerbooks from now on"
 LennieJ says, "hey I was lookin at one today he he"
 Timbook2 says, "for me powerbook is the future"
 Timbook2 says, "i bought an i-book 500 for my wife"
 oink says, "yeh, but can you leave a PB running for days"
 Timbook2 says, "that small thing kicks ass !!"
 Timbook2 says, "enough of those desktoppers"
 oink says, "I have dreams of a TiPB sitting atop a metric halo box"
 Timbook2 says, "cant wait to see my friend stephen here with the
titanic and the metric halo box"
 Timbook2 says, "just what he's dreaming too"
 Timbook2 says, "if it works he sells his PT rig....he says"
 oink says, "how many tracks can you really run off a PB drive though"
 Timbook2 says, "and what about firewire drives?"
 LennieJ says, "U cant sell me on powerbooks "
 Timbook2 says, "when the firewire is already occupied by MH ?"
 Brett says, "Maxtor 80 gig Firewire SUCKS!!!!!!!!!"
 Timbook2 says, "i hear people say the pismo G3-500 has more horsepower
and 2 firewire ports"
 oink says, "there is still the issue of the firewire bus being too
narrow to handle an interface and a drive"
 Brett says, "Only one firewire bus there"
 Timbook2 says, "maxtor sucks yes brett"
 oink says, "you need a separate card or one"
 oink says, "I'll upgrade my wallstreet to a pismo soon"
 Timbook2 says, "doesn't the pismo 500 have 2 firewires brett?"
 Brett says, "i believe that it is 1 port w/2 I/Os"
 Brett says, "could be wrong"
 Brett says, "err... one bus"
 oink says, "one bus yes"
 oink says, "same on the TiPB"
 Timbook2 says, "ok"
 oink says, "and its not enuf bandwidth to run an external drive too"
 Timbook2 says, "so that is a whole new territory to beta test"
 Timbook2 says, "in this case paying beta testing"
 oink says, "I think , if I had a TiPB as my only machine"
 oink says, "I'd look at the IBM travelstar drives"
 Brett says, "it's plenty of bandwidth for DV at least and minimum of 10
tracks of 16/44 or more"
 Timbook2 says, "i would get the small usb audio interface..stereo"
 Brett says, "USB audio? ouch"
 Brett says, "USB is a placeholder for firewire"
 Timbook2 says, "i saw it work s fine on the pismo of a friend"
 oink says, "well lets see how it goes"
 oink says, "it seems we have USB3 now"
 Timbook2 says, "usb stereo for audio in out and a firewire drive for
the track count"
 Timbook2 says, "is my bet"
 LennieJ says, "well sorry but my idea idea of a power book is a 15 buck
cassette recorder U can carry in your shirt pocket "
 Timbook2 says, "i just put a 20gb drive into my lombard ....150$ for
the drive"
 Brett says, "MS has gone for firewire in XP, USB is going away for
anything requiring bandwidth"
 Timbook2 says, "i see"
 Timbook2 says, "but how are we supposed to get high track count with 1
firewire bus?"
 Brett says, "Wait"
 oink says, "cool, so MS has given up on the format war that was
reputedly being waged ?"
 Brett says, "It's the controllers/translators that are the bottleneck"
 Timbook2 says, "i still have the vxpocket for audio here and it sounds
great"
 Brett says, "MS announced they will fully support firewire for
bandwidth-intensive peripherals"
 Brett says, "Not that I care - but it plays into Apple's hands - hehe"
 Timbook2 says, "in what way?"
 oink says, "firewire is apple's baby"
 Brett says, "Apple wrote the firewire spec and owns the original spec
and code"
 Timbook2 says, "ahhhhh that's it"
 Timbook2 says, "so what about usb ??"
 oink says, "i think usb was MS's"
 Brett says, "I believe that USB will fade away over the next two years
as the redubdancy becomes apparent"
 Brett can't type
 oink says, "so you feel there will be firewire keyboard etc ?"
 Brett says, "Of course, "redubdancy" could be a future music trend ;)"
 LennieJ says, "so what's wrong with USB?"
 oink says, "yes, lets do that"
 oink says, "lets own redubdancy"
 Brett says, "mLan is growing REALLY fast"
 Brett says, "lol"
 Timbook2 says, "the Yamaha thing?"
 oink says, "tell me about it, I still haven't sighted any product in
the stores"
 Brett says, "yeah"
 oink says, "still waiting for an mLAN interface for my KB"
 Brett says, "Go to the Sound On Sound Website, back issues, search for
mLan for great info"
 Brett says, "err... mLan"
 DJ-Allard says, "I have the issue on mLAN"
 oink says, "of course mLAN is designed for bigger things"
 DJ-Allard has left the Session
 LennieJ says, "Im still waiting for the shoelaces that tie themselves"
 Brett says, "This protocol will definitely win - mLan rocks and solves
so many problems"
 oink says, "than just audio/midi"
 Brett says, "Shoelace-mLan is still in development"
 Brett says, "One cable for all devices - audio, midi, synch, with
software routing for all"
 Timbook2 says, "as redubdancy"
 Brett says, "but you have to tie your own shoes"
 Timbook2 says, "so you think yamaha will win this and make it a
standard?"
 Brett says, "Yes, I just copywrited "Redubdancy".... stand back, my
lawyers haven't been fed today ;)"
 Timbook2 says, "LOL"
 Timbook2 says, "good one !!"
 oink says, "well mLAN will be everywhere eventually"
 oink says, "from your fridge to your hifi to your 'puter to your oven"
 Brett says, "Did you guys cover the subject of backing up gigs worth of
data yet?"
 Timbook2 says, "buy a new ide drive and swap it"
 oink says, "DAT is expensive but effective"
 LennieJ says, "have lots & lots of CDs on hand"
 Brett says, "Hard drives do not qualify as backup - Rule One"
 oink says, "maybe magneto-optical might be the most secure"
 Timbook2 says, "why ?"
 Timbook2 says, "brett?"
 Brett says, "Cause they crash"
 Timbook2 says, "why not store on to drives?"
 Brett says, "Cause both crash"
 oink says, "everything can crash"
 Timbook2 says, "well if i buy a new one , dump the data onto it and
leave it there for  months??"
 Brett says, "CDs don't crash - they do something else. But they are TOO
SMALL!"
 Timbook2 says, "never touching it til needed?"
 oink says, "dvd"
 Brett says, "yes"
 Timbook2 says, "dvd would be nice yes"
 Timbook2 says, "too expensive still"
 Brett says, "and storing correctly - RULE TWO: it's not backed up
without three copies"
 Timbook2 says, "true !!"
 Timbook2 says, "at least 2"
 oink says, "well 3 copies would make CD viable"
 Timbook2 says, "in my book"
 oink says, "especially if you use different brands of media"
 LennieJ says, "well I opt for good old tape "
 Brett says, "Good old linear slow rusty tape"
 LennieJ says, "yup "
 Brett says, "My video collection testifies: all my tapes over 8 years
old are not playable"
 LennieJ says, "it hasnt let me down yet"
 LennieJ says, "I have 16 track masters  here 20 yrs old that play back
as good as  the day they were recorded"
 Brett says, "Lennie - I hear you, understood"
 Timbook2 says, "that play back in 20 years as today??"
 Timbook2 says, "i backed up all the old sessions"
 Timbook2 says, "i can re post them anytime brett"
 Brett says, "All my friends with tapes over 15 years old had to bake
them, play once, and dump to digital"
 Timbook2 says, "must be the humid climate"
 LennieJ says, "well they didnt know how to store them he he"
 oink says, "well that depends on the tape, I've heard of 30-40 yo tape
that don't need baking"
 Timbook2 says, "in berlin they last at least 30 years ..I know cause I
remastered many in the 80s"
 oink says, "its a matter of luck"
 oink says, "on what tape they bought"
 Brett says, "Well stored expensive 2-inch 16 track tapes... almost
lost"
 Brett says, "Yes - batches varied quite a bit"
 Timbook2 says, "must be the san andreas fault"
 oink says, "expense has nothing to do with it"
 LennieJ says, "well I always use ampex 246 "
 Brett says, "Yes, it's San Andreas' fault!"
 LennieJ says, "its never dropped out on me"
 oink says, "some tape formulations lasted better than others"
 Brett says, "Lennie - you have good skills and practices"
 Timbook2 says, "yes some tapes had issues"
 Brett says, "But Lennie, what about 10 more years?"
 Timbook2 says, "i remember BASF almost went awol when they sent out
faulty tape and got sued in germany in the 70s""
 LennieJ says, "how do U make it last as long as U can?"
 Timbook2 says, "soooooo.....backup is tape heh?"
 Timbook2 says, "DDS 3 I guess "
 oink says, "I guess, for those with the resources"
 LennieJ says, "well tape or 3 CD copies he he"
 oink says, "I'll opt for 3 CD copies, but tape is the easiest"
 LennieJ says, "or 4 hard drives"
 oink says, "microdrives might be an option too, when they get big
enough, storage wise"
 LennieJ says, "U cant preserve multi track recordings on CD though"
 LennieJ says, "what if U want to remix something 10 yrs from now"
 oink says, "I'm talkin about saving audiofiles "
 oink says, "usually with a logic song"
 Timbook2 says, "1 song easily gets into the 650mb range "
 oink says, "but I'm thinking it would make a lotta sense to be more
rigorous about timestamping the files"
 Timbook2 says, "if its more than that...happy file shuffling"
 oink says, "I do that, one song per CD"
 oink says, "and keep writing to it as the session progresses"
 oink says, "then it will overflow to  a second CD as I pile up
alternative mixes"
 LennieJ says, "Hmmm"
 LennieJ says, "well I mix &m save to CD "
 LennieJ says, "I have numerous mixes of the tunes i like to keep"
 LennieJ says, "so hopefully if I loose. the stuff of the drive at least
theres a pile of mixes to choose from"
 LennieJ says, "he he"
 LennieJ says, "& then U make copies of them"










***********************************************************************
 Disclaimer: I have edited this chat substantially, but done my utmost
to maintain the sense of what was said. This is to be regarded as only a

precis of the actual chat, and any unforseen or contentious inference
that can be drawn form one line to the next, is purely unintentional on
my part, and cannot be attributed to the persons who posted the chat.

***********************************************************************

Dave Eager [oink]

This past Wednesday in Audio Round-Table we started the discussion with
standalone audio editor s/w, but soon moved into 'using 2-track editors
for transferring audio files. Then we moved on to a discussion of Super
Audio CD format .

The session was attended by Brett, skwawksoun, janpulsford, Vesaa,
Hanno, Jody, BrianF, DJ-Allard, MC, MixMasterMark and oink

The following is a substantially edited summary of the forum chat:

Brett says, "Dave - BTW... for a future topic:\ufffdworking with video on
Rocket\ufffd
You say, "yes indeed, I'd like you to give us a
little talk on that Brett :)"

 Vesaa says, "Hi,all what's the topic?"
 oink says, "well i set it as standalone audio and FX  editors"
 Vesaa says, "ok"
 oink says, "and what do we use and do we use them at all anymore"
 oink says, "well first for news: Dave B has closed the Logic FAQ site"
 Vesaa says, "noticed:-("
 skwawksoun says, "aaarrrggghhh"
 skwawksoun says, "why doesn't he charge an annual fee[small]"
 oink says, "a lotta folx expect to get everything for free on the net"
 Vesaa says, "since Lug is free"
 skwawksoun says, "it's saved my bacon a few times , i'd cough up to
keep him going "
 oink says, "yhe, but the faq site was easier to get answers from "
 Vesaa says, "It was i know and,in overall,it was more controlled"
 skwawksoun says, "He'll be missed "
 oink says, "yes, much better for troubleshooting"
 skwawksoun says, "tell him thanx anyway"
 oink says, "will do"
 Vesaa says, "Name one standalone audio editor for me ,so I get a better
grasp of the issue"
 oink says, "well Peak, hyperprism, SonicWorx"
 Vesaa says, "got it"
 skwawksoun says, "like t rax"
 BrianF says, "Wave Burner?"
 oink says, "I guess too"
 BrianF says, "Wavelab?"
 oink says, "do you have waveburner Pro ?"
 oink says, "yes wavelab too"
 BrianF says, "yes"
 oink says, "cause we have been caught up in the plug-in bonanza lately"

 oink says, "so do these apps still do a better job ?"
 BrianF says, "better than within LOGIC or cubase?"
 oink says, "yes"
 BrianF says, "for me, yes"
 oink says, "can you tell us your experience ?"
 oink says, "for instance wavelab"
 oink says, "how does that work better than Logic Sample edit [I'm mac
so I don't know]"
 BrianF says, "I guess it depends on what job you need to do. Wavelab is
very fast and sonically very good. Being
able to stack plug-ins, make a cd with PQ codes ect"
 oink says, "oh good, that is a big point with standalone editors"
 oink says, "they often work faster, or are easier to use quickly I
mean"
 oink says, "how is waveburner pro shaping up ?"
 BrianF says, "yes and easier to setup with a sound card"
 BrianF says, "Waveburner is great. A couple of things that need to be
tweaked but overall I think it is great for what it's designed to do"
 oink says, "I myself still use hyperprism  a bit, mainly for sound
design possibilities"
 BrianF says, "for sound design you are right . For 2 track editing
Wavelab "
 BrianF says, "So do we need an editor with Rocket in it?"
 oink says, "well some users have suggested that"
 oink says, "but do you think it would help ?"
 oink says, "like for instance if, someone had  a track they brought to
you for mastering ?"
 BrianF says, "well now they can send it via LogicRocket"
 oink says, "but not in source quality"
 oink says, "Logicrocket is compressed-only"
 BrianF says, "I didn't know that! I do have some people wanting to FTP
things to me as well"
 oink says, "though you may be able to tweek the compression real low"
 oink says, "FTP is good"
 BrianF says, "low compression wouldn't cut it"
 oink says, "thats what i mean"
 BrianF says, "FTP is cool. Also some have used I Tools accounts to post
files for me"
 BrianF says, "Especially if they don't have LOGIC or cubase"
 oink says, "yeh iDisk is handy, but it plays hell with your 'puter
when logged in "
 oink says, "really bogs down"
 BrianF says, "it's getting better lately"
 oink says, "oh cool"
 BrianF says, "but if "
 BrianF says, "everyone could rocket things it would be lovely"
 oink says, "yeh, it would make communication that much better"
 oink says, "so what s/w do your clients often have ?"
 BrianF says, "some use RADAR and mix to Masterlink or 1/2""
 oink says, "ok"
 BrianF says, "and some mix in PT"
 oink says, "well, i beleive euphonix is going rocketpowered"
 BrianF says, "they are suppose to have E- Desk"
 oink says, "they use a flavour of PT don't they ?"
 oink says, "isn't E-desk a form of PT ?"
 BrianF says, "I don't think so. I know the E Desk is first for PC and
it's mainly 2 track of 5.1"
 Vesaa says, "What is an E-desk?"
 oink says, "its software"
 BrianF says, "an app that Euphonix is getting ready to launch"
 Vesaa says, "I thought they were into mixers"
 oink says, "well, a whole studio solution"
 BrianF says, "I know that Euphonix is trying to get the labels into it
so people can send masters that way straight to the label"
 Vesaa says, "ok"
 oink says, "euphonix are a rocketnetwork development partner"
 Jody says, "So using the euphonix stuff would be like the rocket thing,
only geared towards the major labels?"
 BrianF says, "that's what I've been hearing"
 oink says,
"http://www.euphonix.com/news/2001/2001_Feb/SplashPageEDeck.htm"
 BrianF says, "I was just there, you are quick"
 oink says, "I have spoken to a number of producers on here"
 oink says, "who mainly want a way of sending mixes to their labels"
 oink says, "so they can have them vetted etc and for fast turnaround"
 BrianF says, "yes it will save time and less remixes  possibly"
 Jody says, "save the label a few bucks that the artist still won't
see."
 BrianF says, "true"
 oink says, "even in NYC  or LA or nashville, oline transfer would be
much faster than courier-ing CDs or tapes"
 oink says, "by the time the mix gets passed back and forth afew times"
 oink says, "days can go by"
 BrianF says, "instant feedback as well"
 oink says, "well private sessions are secure, no need to let anyone
have access"
 BrianF says, "a simple app like this that labels can have vs having
LOGIC or cubase or PT"
 oink says, "yes"
 oink says, "so maybe a two track player of some sort"
 Jody says, "I think this puts too many hands into the pot when the
artist is recording their material. A&R people
generally dont' know a good song when they hear one. They always have to
have a meeting about it. Don't want to lose the job."
 BrianF says, "this way they can listen on NS10 that are out of phase or
out of wack"
 Vesaa says, "Based on my experiences,if you you give them more more
mixes than two ,you're heading for
trouble.Too many options ,they'll go crazy"
 Vesaa says, "you'll be mixing forever"
 Jody says, "Good musicians get screwed when suits force a sound upon
them."
 BrianF says, "but if you give them the final mix only. you gotta give
it to them some time"
 skwawksoun says, "yes its very easy to say do this and send it back"
 skwawksoun says, "no decision "
 oink says, "just gonna read a bit about E-desk"
 BrianF says, "they are going to have it recalled anyhow why not get it
then"
 skwawksoun says, "true"
 Vesaa says, "They like visiting the actual studio:How's it been,is this
stereo now,ETC"
 skwawksoun says, "you could keep the vibe alive with less time"
 skwawksoun says, "in between"
 BrianF says, "sure that will stil have to happen. But if I'm finished
with a mix and the president it LA for a meeting I
don't want to wait for him to get back"
 oink says, "So many more dance producers etc are working from home or
project studios  today"
 BrianF says, "alot are and it will only grow"
 Vesaa says, "Anything with Euphonix logo is outta reach for a project
studio"
 BrianF says, "not only dance. I'm doing mastering and mixing out of my
house"
 BrianF says, "Not true about E-desk"
 BrianF says, "It's really a transfer app"
 Jody says, "but it seems you would need a pretty damn fast connection
to make the files worth while."
 Jody says, "If you're a studio and only have 56k, forget it."
 oink says, "all this is based on bandwidth "
 BrianF says, "that will go away in the next few years and all studio,
labels will have fast pipes"
 oink says, "by 2007 everyone will have bandwidth available"
 oink says, "by sattelite"
 oink says, "both ways,  http://www.teledesic.com/\ufffd
 BrianF says, "Did anyone see the demo of 5.1 and live dancers at AES
last year?"
 Jody says, "I wasn't there."
 skwawksoun says, "long way away"
 Vesaa says, "I wasn't even near"
 BrianF says, "5.1 24 bit audio real time to the dancers in canada while
the music was played at UCLA"
 Jody says, "wow."
 Jody says, "that's pretty amazing."
 oink says, "really, wow"
 Jody says, "some sort of dedicated line?"
 skwawksoun says, "what transmission?"
 BrianF says, "the geeks are calling Internet 2"
 BrianF says, "I don't remember exactly but something like 100X DSL"
 Jody says, "like an OC3 or something?"
 BrianF says, "not sure. I"
 BrianF says, "I'd have to go back and find the info"
 skwawksoun says, "gotta get that soundcard latency down"
 BrianF says, "yepper"
 BrianF says, "so in five years where are we going  to be with
delivering audio"
 Vesaa says, "If this all is very important why are the IT stocks goin
dow ,down,down?"
 Jody says, "cause technology is getting cheaper."
 oink says, "cause they were over-inflated by vapourware"
 BrianF says, "yes just got 256 of RAM for $38"
 BrianF says, "so anyone heard SACD"
 skwawksoun says, "whats SACD"
 BrianF says, "Super Audio CD"
 skwawksoun says, "no"
 oink says, "no, haven't, have you ?"
 Jody says, "better than DVD?"
 BrianF says, "way better"
 Jody says, "how so?"
 BrianF says, "it samples at 2.8 Mhz for one"
 oink says, "wow"
 Jody says, "what machine can do that now?"
 Jody says, "what studio can record that?"
 Vesaa says, "well,ten years ago in Finland they estimated GSM
cellphones will never be big ,cause the price won't
drop under 1000 GBP"
 Hanno joined the Session.
 BrianF says, "it's not PCM it's DSD Direct Stream Digital"
 Jody says, "Shit I'm just getting into 96/24"
 skwawksoun says, "do you get a new set of ears too"
 Jody says, "I still don't think most machines can even handle that."
 BrianF says, "It sounds like analog"
 skwawksoun says, "brian somewhere someone will gisagree about that"
 Jody says, "why would sounding analog be so good?"
 oink says, "Brian: are SACD players in the near future, or far away ?"
 BrianF says, "well I ve been doing this a long time and it's for sure
the closest by a long shot"
 skwawksoun says, "just because "
 BrianF says, "you can buy them now"
 Jody says, "nothing's record for that format yet is it?"
 BrianF says, "last year they cost $2000 but I bought one today for
$300"
 Jody says, "mastering a CD into SACD isn't going to improve an old
master."
 BrianF says, "it sure will if the old master is analog"
 Jody says, "is SACD available in surround sound?"
 BrianF says, "surround and stereo"
 Jody says, "lots of stuff recorded these days are digital though."
 BrianF says, "some of the high end classical stuff is being record
straight to DSD"
 Jody says, "by what kind of machine?"
 Hanno says, "ahhh sonys bit streaming?"
 Jody says, "not a HD recorder."
 oink says, "oh like the old direct to disk stuff"
 BrianF says, "Genex or Tascam now has a tape machine that will record
DSD"
 Hanno says, "but isnt DSD a sony thing?"
 Jody says, "that tape must move pretty fast to capture that much data."

 skwawksoun says, "sorry guys ,DSD?"
 BrianF says, "DSD is a sony/phillips deal"
 Hanno says, "direct stream digitaL"
 BrianF says, "yep"
 Hanno says, "its for the classical folk and maybe for chesky records"
 Hanno says, "and other audio purists"
 Jody says, "I think DVD will win out over SACD."
 Jody says, "it's too popular right now."
 oink says, "just like direct to disk"
 BrianF says, "no I heard Keb' Mo' today and it was amazing"
 Hanno says, "problem is : you cant edit it"
 oink says, "DVD will be the standard for the next 10-15 years I guess"
 Jody says, "I can make a surround sound mix for DVD right now and take
to mom 'n' dads to hear it."
 BrianF says, "yes you can"
 Hanno says, "you have to transform it to pcm"
 Jody says, "even grandparents have DVD setups at home now."
 BrianF says, "no the new SADiE system allows editing and Eq/compression
etc"
 Jody says, "makes it the easy medium to master too."
 Hanno says, "wow thats news"
 Jody says, "how long before logic records in DSD?"
 BrianF says, "that trouble with DVD Audio is that you can't play it in
your CD player"
 Hanno says, "hehe"
 Jody says, "how long before audio cards are made for DSD?"
 Hanno says, "looong"
 BrianF says, "how much money ya got?"
 Jody says, "can you play SACD in your CD player?"
 BrianF says, "you can play it if it is dual layer"
 BrianF says, "SACD on one layer and 16/44 on the second"
 Jody says, "I think I prefer DVD right now. People have them in their
houses and their cars."
 Jody says, "way more common."
 oink says, "so SACD doesn't have error correction etc ?"
 Vesaa says, "Digidesing has one Le DSD card available ,only that the Le
version is mono,hehe"
 Hanno says, "will the audio DVD s have this region bullshit like the
video discs?"
 Jody says, "and that costs how much?"
 BrianF says, "I agree about DVD but not about DVD audio"
 MC joined the Session.
 Vesaa says, "like 10000000000000 USD"
 Jody says, "too much for me, I'm out."
 Vesaa :-)
 Hanno says, "i just bought some DVDs in USA and some wont play on my
german powerbook"
 Jody says, "yeah the region thing is stupid."
 BrianF says, "for sure it's way expensive now but so was 24/96 not long
ago"
 Hanno says, "so will this be valid for audio too?"
 BrianF says, "anyhow if you get a chance to hear it you should"
 Hanno says, "i mean can i buy a DVD audio cd in usa and play it on my
european DVD auio player?"
 Jody says, "I'm looking to start making DVD audio discs when I get the
Dual 800."
 BrianF says, "no you can hear the difference on Mackies"
 Hanno says, "sounds good "
 Vesaa says, "Genelec is building some with DSD compability,go figure
the price'"
 Hanno says, "i just did a listening test"
 BrianF says, "it looses all the harshness of digital"
 skwawksoun says, "regions kind of get back to edesk and labels and
control by vested interests dont they"
 Hanno says, "somebody mixed in PT , in logic and then thru an SSL"
 BrianF says, "and"
 Jody says, "I can hear the difference between 16 & 24 bit files."
 Jody says, "I'm going to do a test with 96/24 shortly."
 oink says, "sure"
 Hanno says, "i need better speakers "
 Vesaa says, "I can hear the difference between 44 and 48 DAT ,that's
all I know"
 Hanno says, "i cant hear a difference I need new ears"
 Hanno says, "or new speakers"
 Jody says, "If you buy my first comment I gotta bridge to sell you."
 BrianF says, "Here is a spec from the $300 SACD player"
 Hanno says, "bridge?"
 Jody says, "But I believe there is a difference between 44.1 and 96."
 BrianF says, "Playback Frequency Range: 2Hz - 100kHz"
 BrianF says, "Playback Frequency Range: 2Hz - 100kHz"
 BrianF says, "Frequency Response: 2Hz - 50kHz(-3dB)"
 Jody says, "who the hell can hear 2Hz?"
 Hanno says, "yeah i remember when i heard 2 hz last time"
 Hanno says, "it was a sledgehammer"
 BrianF says, "my sub goes down to 8hz"
 oink says, "2hz, you can kill people"
 skwawksoun says, "jelly belly"
 Vesaa says, "Here's a nice thread,don't read it now ,it's huge:
http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/Forum3/HTML/000822-3.html"
 BrianF says, "don't shoot the messenger"
 Hanno says, "so the player outputs that freq ranger into which amp
which speaker??"
 oink says, "you would need a speaker the size of your house"
 Hanno says, "are there microfones with that range?"
 Jody says, "and an amp capable of hoggin lots of electricity."
 Hanno says, "how do you pick up such a spectrum?"
 oink says, "maybe transducers"
 Vesaa says, "digital difference compared,hanno .it's easy optically"
 Hanno says, "imagine the teccno guys investing their dollars into that
technology"
 oink says, "seismographs"
 MixMasterMark has left the Session
 BrianF says, "I know of some new sennheisers that go way out there and
also the earthworks that go from 9hz to
30K"
 skwawksoun says, "you know this guy raved to me once about the
dinosaurs footsteps in jurasic park the movie was still crap tho"
 oink says, "hehe, they would"
 oink says, "for that 'killer' bass"
 Hanno says, "and the damaga done to the buildings"
 Jody says, "I think 2Hz is the T-rex stepping on a stradavarius."
 Hanno says, "lol"
 skwawksoun says, "hehe"
 oink says, "Hz 2 much"
 BrianF says, "hehe"
 Hanno says, "LOL"
 BrianF says, "anyhow so what was the subject?"
 Vesaa says, "If you take two optical fibres and measure the difference
,it can go down to 0 hz"
 oink says, "standalone audio and FX editors"
 skwawksoun says, "standalone apps ,i dont know anything bout them
either"
 Jody says, "I pretty much do it all in the computer nowadays."
 oink says, "but thats been replaced by more interesting stuff :)"
 oink says, "I meant apps like wavelab and peak and sparx, hyperprism,
T-racks etc"
 Hanno says, "stuff like sound designer? peak ? "
 oink says, "yeh"
 Hanno says, "ohh still handy for me"
 oink says, "hanno, what is the curent SD like"
 Jody says, "I've stopped using peak."
 oink says, "I haven't used for years"
 Jody says, "I recently check out T-racks, that's kinda cool."
 Hanno says, "me neither i think its dead"
 Jody says, "But I'm not really familiar with it yet."
 Hanno says, "if only didgi would give us interleaved stereo in DAE"
 oink says, "like  i said i still like hyperprism  standalone for
sound-design"
 BrianF says, "digi "give" something?"
 skwawksoun says, "could we talk about mic emulators??"
 oink says, "sure"
 Hanno says, "arboretum yes"
 Vesaa says, "I ain't never heard or seen one"
 Hanno says, "nice stuff "
 skwawksoun says, "well if they  work i need one"
 BrianF says, "yes it is"
 BrianF says, "they work"
 MC has left the Session
 oink says, "whats the best source to use ?"
 Jody says, "Isn't there one by Antares that's supposed to work really
well?"
 oink says, "is an SM58 sufficient ?"
 oink says, "mic-modeller"
 BrianF says, "sure"
 Jody says, "I just got a Vipre from GT, those make one mic sound pretty
different from setting to setting."
 oink says, "is the only one I know"
 skwawksoun says, "i'd love a neumann but realistically an all that"
 oink says, "try Rode"
 Jody says, "I want a ribbon mic."
 Jody says, "Those rock!"
 BrianF says, "I've heard good things about the new NKT"
 skwawksoun says, "they've had reasonable reviews in elec. muso"
 skwawksoun says, "the rodes"
 skwawksoun says, "back to mic emulates when i think of the trouble we
used to have getting a loud git sound
recorded and now theres pod"
 BrianF says, "I gotta go too. Have a good day/good night!"
 Hanno says, "first thing i noticed = l a t e n c y"
 BrianF says, "see you soon"
 BrianF has left the Session
 skwawksoun says, "you sure thats not just modelled in for the room?"
 oink says, "parting words, in the POD manual they explain that"
 Hanno says, "101% sure"
 skwawksoun says, "the pilots handbook"
 oink says, "bye"











***********************************************************************
 Disclaimer: I have edited this chat substantially, but done my utmost
to maintain the sense of what was said. This is to be regarded as only a

precis of the actual chat, and any unforseen or contentious inference
that can be drawn form one line to the next, is purely unintentional on
my part, and cannot be attributed to the persons who posted the chat.

***********************************************************************

Dave Eager [oink]

This past Wednesday in Audio Round-Table we discussed 'editing and
slicing audio files' Including using ReCycle slices and strip-silence
and also repairing audio in Logic's Sample Edit window.

The session was attended by mojen, dagroov, Bop, skwawksoun and oink

The following is a substantially edited summary of the forum chat:


 dagroov says, "so, we just started?? :)"
 mojen says, "yup"
 oink says, "I wanted to swap tips on slicing audio etc"
 dagroov says, "brb"
 oink says, "with Logic, recycle, PT etc"
 mojen says, "i'm quite fond of strip silence in logic"
 oink says, "me too"
 oink says, "it has improved no end with faster processors"
 dagroov says, "me too but I recently accquired recycle and I dig it a
lot too"
 oink says, "and i think the inbuilt cross-fading in logic has improved"

 mojen says, "recycle is stereo now, right?  i had it years ago when it
first came out but i stopped using it"
 oink says, "not the cross-fades you set, but what logic does with
overlapping regions"
 oink says, "yeh it's in stereo now"
 dagroov says, "I am a big fan of using logic's cut on song position and
cut between locators key commands instead of
manually using scissor tools"
 oink says, "which is a big improvement"
 oink says, "me too"
 mojen says, "same here"
 oink says, "I like splitting a region into 16th measures and
rearranging"
 dagroov says, "what's with automatically overlap crossfades? I only
know the ones you manually set"
 dagroov says, "and the old one, destructive I think"
 oink says, "well, i noticed a few versions ago, that the clicks on
overlapping regions which were not 'zero-crossed' seemed
much less pronounced , or non-existant"
 dagroov says, "I noticed this too"
 dagroov says, "so, it does something?"
 oink says, "so i figured that logic is doing some kind of cross-fade"
 dagroov says, "!"
 mojen says, "i just noticed it recently myself.  i chopped up a vocal
randomly just for an effect and it's very smooth"
 oink says, "or fade in-out with single  regions"
 dagroov says, "you think so???"
 dagroov says, "no prefs?"
 oink says, "yeh, hardly getting clicks at all except in really extreme
cases"
 mojen says, "seems like the "search zero crossings" is automatic or
something"
 oink says, "well I have zero crossings off in the arrange window"
 dagroov says, "usually bass and acoustic guitar give me clicks"
 dagroov says, "oh, I always use zero-crossing"
 oink says, "so i know I'm cutting exactly to the bar"
 oink says, "for slicing drums etc"
 dagroov says, "I don't know if zero-crossing is on in arrange, but its
is in sample edit window!"
 oink says, "i like to choose which zero crossing I go to"
 oink says, "I keep it on in sample edit, usually"
 oink says, "just turn it off when needed"
 dagroov says, "do you guys zoom more with key commands, or with control
key?"
 mojen says, "key commands  - i use powerkeys"
 oink says, "control key here"
 dagroov says, "but keycommand for in and out or for memorizing zoom
levels?"
 oink says, "though I still reach for zoom boxes"
 dagroov says, "I am addicted on ctrl-arrows for zooming in small,
continuous steps (instead of the boxes)"
 mojen says, "me too"
 dagroov says, "get lost with ctrl-key's "memories""
 mojen says, "but aren't the audio file drawings in the arrange window
off?"
 oink says, "they are in the arrange"
 oink says, "never trust the overview"
 mojen says, "the overview is evil"
 dagroov says, "what do you mean now??"
 dagroov says, ""oink"
 oink says, "well the audio that shows in arrange"
 oink says, "is just the overview"
 oink says, "like you see in the audio window"
 oink says, "not like Protools"
 dagroov says, "so whats the alternative??"
 mojen says, "pro tools"
 oink says, "the wave form"
 oink says, "which has a direct representation"
 oink says, "like Logic has in the main Sample Edit window"
 oink says, "so logic calculates a graphical representation of the
waveforem"
 dagroov says, "ok, so to clear it up, you are saying, oink, that
logic's arrange/audio window's overviews aren't precise,
whether sample edit's is ? right?"
 oink says, "which is no way sample accurate"
 mojen says, "right"
 oink says, "for the overview, which we see in top of Sample edit,
arrange window, and audio window"
 oink says, "you always have to refer back to sample edit for accuracy"
 dagroov says, "ok, so to edit end points on sample edit is easy, but
what about start points? have to move start indicator
pressing control so as not to affect the anchor!"
 mojen says, "that's one complaint of pro tools users about logic"
 oink says, "its valid too"
 mojen says, "i wish they would fix it, but no plans"
 oink says, "i'd love to see logic with audio like PT edit window"
 oink says, "dunno"
 mojen says, "logic would be the pro tools killer"
 oink says, "looks like it"
 oink says, "yeh"
 oink says, "it would"
 dagroov says, "I never heard something that protools does that logic
doesn't - maybe this is the first one!"
 mojen says, "dagroov: to answer your earlier question, option click on
the bottom of the waveform in sample edit and you
can drag the region wherever you want."
 oink says, "yeh i use that all the time"
 dagroov says, "yup, but it is weird, and not too precise"
 mojen says, "not precise?  just zoom in.  sample edit is the only
precise window."
 oink says, "turn zero crossings off first"
 dagroov says, "I use it too"
 oink says, "to maintain the selection size"
 dagroov says, "its a drag having to press option"
 dagroov says, "if you let it go, you lose the whole thing"
 oink says, "I like Logic's zoom levels better than PT"
 dagroov says, "and undo usually in sample edits can be useless!"
 oink says, "PT doesn't go far enough"
 mojen says, "dagroov: logic is not very undo friendly"
 oink says, "you have trouble with undo's in sample edit ?"
 oink says, "I use undo all the time"
 dagroov says, "but does it WORK all the time"
 oink says, "especially when processing"
 oink says, "it does for me"
 mojen says, "one undo, yes.  but not like peak where you can go back to
where you started"
 oink says, "oh I know what you mean"
 dagroov says, "I get stuff that don't say it undoable and stuff that
don't say  undo at all"
 oink says, "when you cut samples"
 oink says, "and undo"
 dagroov says, "undo with sample edit if you save a backup copy is easy
:)"
 oink says, "yes that can be tricky"
 oink says, "but with processing [like with time/pitch, or waves plugs,
I never have it fail"
 oink says, "cause i will apply a process, save selection as new file,
and undo"
 dagroov says, "btw, I love peak's batch stuff, like normalizing - wish
logic would adopt it!"
 dagroov says, "me too"
 mojen says, "peak is the swiss army knife of audio editing."
 oink says, "yes, I'd love that too"
 dagroov says, "I love envelope for vst :)"
 oink says, "batch processing in the audio window would be awsome"
 oink says, "and batch renaming too"
 dagroov says, "it seems logic 5 will have great hyperdraw right? like
easier to move levels, lines, curves, etc?"
 dagroov says, "I use a freeware called renamer for batch renaming
FILES, but nothing for regions, except logic's own
smart sequential numbering"
 oink says, "I meant for files"
 dagroov says, "so, nice lil' renamer app, free, I can change prefixes
and sufixes!"
 oink says, "do you guys use the pencil tool in sample edit much ?"
 dagroov says, "never used pencil!"
 oink says, "but that's not much help in a logic song"
 dagroov says, "for pops' and stuff?"
 mojen says, "i've used pencil in extreme circumstances (like pops on
the perfect take) "
 dagroov says, "works?"
 oink says, "well pencil sucked when it was first introduced"
 mojen says, "yes, but backup, backup, backup."
 oink says, "but it's really cooking now"
 dagroov says, "how do you use it? you just draw following the curve of
what's around?"
 mojen says, "pretty much...  if you zoom in far enough you can get rid
of the offending sample(s) quite nicely"
 oink says, "you used to get into all sorts of trouble with samples
suddenly going to clipping"
 oink says, "but not now"
 dagroov says, "will it work with wind pops and plosives (P's and B's)?"

 oink says, "and always make sure you are in 'sample-hold' view"
 mojen says, "yes"
 dagroov says, "you mean max zoom right?"
 oink says, "cause at fine zoom, the interpolated view is wrong, by it's
very nature"
 oink says, "yeh"
 dagroov says, "what's sample-hold? is it the same as maximum zoom? or
not?"
 oink says, "no its an option in the view menu"
 dagroov says, "never seen it!"
 dagroov says, "stopped reading manuals some versions ago :("
 mojen says, "sample edit menu: view: show as sample and hold"
 oink says, "show as sample&hold"
 mojen says, "jinx!"
 dagroov says, "gotta try it"
 dagroov says, "at any zoom level???"
 oink says, "the normal view interpolates between the sample values"
 oink says, "no only at a really high zoom"
 dagroov says, "you mean, if sample&hold is OFF, at a high zoom, its
still being interpolated?"
 oink says, "the intrpolated view is fine for seeing what the waveform
is like, but sample and hold shows the real sample values"
 dagroov says, "so why not using it all the time???"
 dagroov says, "i mean s&h"
 oink says, "you can be a sample off a zero crossing, for instance, in
the interpolated view"
 mojen says, "it's quite a bit of work to calculate the correct display.
that's why logic can't do it in the arrange in realtime"
 oink says, "well, the interpolated view gives you a better idea of
where glitches might be"
 dagroov says, "oh"
 oink says, "you can see it in the waveform"
 dagroov says, "gotta try it!!"
 oink says, "hard to assess in sample and hold"
 oink says, "but once you start using the pencil...."
 mojen says, "...all hell breaks loose"
 mojen says, ";-)"
 oink says, "you need to know exactly where to draw"
 dagroov says, "gotta try it... definately :)"
 oink says, "dagroov, do you know how to draw in either one or both
channels ?"
 dagroov says, "nope, probably some modifier key, eh?"
 oink says, "option key"
 oink says, "hold option and what you draw goes to both channels"
 dagroov says, "usually, for pops and stuff, if crossfades don't work,
I'll use the silencer!!!"
 dagroov says, "and usually get crazy trying to make it work!!! :("
 dagroov says to you, "cool"
 oink says, "for real nasties, I'm a big fan of removing a wave cycle"
 mojen says, "same here"
 dagroov says, "I once saw an editing session done on sonic solutions -
still think its the most elegant implementation, you
simply position beginning and ending marks (brackets), no dragging
anything..."
 oink says, "as long as I paste it in a silent part not to far after"
 oink says, "then silence"
 dagroov says, "removing a wave cycle - wont it shorten the wave???"
 oink says, "I cut"
 dagroov doesn't get it
 oink says, "and paste the offending bit at the next silence"
 oink says, "then silence the bit i pasted"
 oink says, "then everything after is still in sync"
 dagroov says, "oh got it ! good idea!!"
 dagroov says, "just one cycle? any cycle?"
 oink says, "or try and match the cycle and replace the bad bit"
 oink says, "I'm talking about the cycle with the bad glitch in it"
 oink says, "the one that can't be drawn out"
 oink says, "usually some high-frequency scratch"
 oink says, "or pop"
 dagroov says, "wow!!!"
 mojen says, "ain't logic grand?"
 mojen says, ";-)"
 dagroov says, "love it!"
 oink says, "you know, the ones that look like little squarewaves
imposed on top of the main waveform"
 mojen says, "or those horrendous spiky guys"
 dagroov says, "I once demonstrated to someone audio editing, during
clinton's scandal, by recording "I did NOT have sex
with Monica" and removing the NOT :)"
 oink says, "i like picking up syllables from one word and pasting on
another in logic"
 dagroov says, "did it a couple of times already"
 dagroov says, "clients get crazy!!!"
 oink says, "if a sibillant is not quite right, replace it with another"

 dagroov says, "once I turned a D into a T, by cutting off its
beggining"
 oink says, "I do that too"
 mojen says, "it works well for k's or t's at the end of a word"
 oink says, "its amazing what tricks you learn when youre a crap singer"

 mojen says, "ha!"
 dagroov says, "hahaha - dagroov the autotune meister :)"
 oink says, "hhe"
 oink says, "not refering to anyone but me"
 oink says, "I hear some records where the cut and paste politicians
words together"
 oink says, "and mostly they are really rough"
 oink says, "I know it can be done seamlessly if you want"
 mojen says, "oberheim has a scaled down version of autotune for $49
based on the antares engine.  but it's pc only"
 dagroov says, "I heard it, with stutttttering fx ight?"
 dagroov says, "i mean right?"
 oink says, "well making up sentences they never said"
 dagroov says, "btw, there are some records with stuttering "transform"
cuts that I try to replicate by editing, but it aint the
same"
 dagroov says, "such as Peter Gabriel's OVO - super editing there"
 oink says, "that would more likely be done with a sampler"
 mojen says, "trigger it"
 dagroov says, "but it cuts in the middle of the sample, its not just
being retriggered and its not lfo either"
 dagroov says, "not saying H H H Hello, but saying H l o, sort of"
 oink says, "depends on material"
 dagroov says, "DJ's do it at DJ mixers' mute button (instant, not
toggle type)"
 oink says, "i have done it with slicing regions in Logic"
 mojen says, "this was discussed on the lug recently.  someone explained
how to do it with a sampler, where you vary the
start point using the feature of the sampler"
 dagroov says, "but logic's mute is toggle type"
 oink says, "sampler is definitely the way though"
 dagroov says, "slicing works, but hard for complex rhythms"
 dagroov says, "would be great to autoslice based on a midi guide track"

 oink says, "yeh, some samplers can control the loop point with mod
wheel"
 dagroov says, "there's a cubase vst plug that does it, but doesnt work
in logic"
 dagroov says, "...gotta search the lug"
 dagroov says, "so what one does is trigger sample, pause, trigger
sample with changed start poing, pause, repeat, rinse?"
 mojen says, "dagroove, i think that's the gist of it"
 dagroov says, "gotta try it :)))))"
 dagroov gotta try so _many_ things!!!
 mojen says, "in the exs, couldn't you assign a different sample start
point over a range of keys?"
 dagroov says, "think so"
 mojen says, "well, there you go... "
 mojen says, "then you'd have complete MIDI control"
 oink says, "have you guys worked much with applying groove templates to
strip-silenced segments ?"
 mojen says, "no"
 oink says, "its really cool"
 oink says, "i've been doing that a bit lately"
 dagroov says, "say what?"
 mojen says, "break it down, oink"
 dagroov says, "oh, I know, from the event list, right?"
 oink says, "like autotune for the rythm, hehe"
 dagroov says, "not bad!"
 oink says, "well if you strip-silence"
 oink says, "selct all the segments you want to quantise"
 oink says, "you can apply Q in the event list window"
 mojen says, "gotcha...  "
 oink says, "good for ,lets say quantising a chorus, or spoken track to
a drum groove"
 oink says, "makes something sit much tighter"
 oink says, "you can groove audio in sample edit, but not with groove
templates"
 oink says, "and the sample edit way is destructive editing"
 skwawksoun says, "hate to be a bore but could you clarify strip
sinlence for me oink . i know i cant do it in sil but i want a handle on
it"
 oink says, "well, in Gold and Plat"
 oink says, "logic will split up an audio file"
 oink says, "at the silence points"
 oink says, "like drum hits"
 mojen says, "you can define what level constitutes silence"
 oink says, "but you can tweek it to split at any gain level in the file
if you want"
 skwawksoun says, "gotcha"
 dagroov says, "like a non-realtime gate"
 skwawksoun says, "soyou can define all the start points"
 dagroov says, "btw, how do we compare split silence vs simply gating?"
 mojen says, "split silence gives you individual regions that you can
move around to your heart's content"
 oink says, "and play merry hell with"
 oink says, "hehe"
 mojen says, "ha!"
 skwawksoun says, "long time ago i used to make hi hats groove ,straight
sixteens whatever on a drum machine by making
the bass drum drive a compressor on the hats"
 dagroov says, "cool"
 mojen says, "sidechain, right?"
 skwawksoun says, "it was lo tech but interesting "
 skwawksoun says, "not really side chain all the same signal but the
kick made the comp work"
 mojen says, "gotcha"
 oink says, "thans guys , i think we all learned from each other today"
 oink says, "which is the best :)"









***********************************************************************
 Disclaimer: I have edited this chat substantially, but done my utmost
to maintain the sense of what was said. This is to be regarded as only a

precis of the actual chat, and any unforseen or contentious inference
that can be drawn form one line to the next, is purely unintentional on
my part, and cannot be attributed to the persons who posted the chat.

***********************************************************************

Dave Eager [oink]

This past Wednesday in Audio Round-Table we discussed 'portable
rocording'

The session was attended by Brett , timmymacdd, Bop, janpulsford, oink,
Lennie, Rockbox191

The following is a substantially edited summary of the forum chat:


 Bop says, "so   ummm oinkE    is  there  any  type  of  topic  to this
roundtable?"
 oink says, "OK, tonight's topic, is 'taking the studio to the client'"
 oink says, "so we can discuss powerbooks, magma chassis, and anything
else that makes that happen"

 janpulsford says, "ok . . i have a question"
 janpulsford says, "does anyone know of a fold up midi keyboard?"
 janpulsford says, "like the fold up querty keyboards"
 Bop says, "nope"
 oink says, "haven't"
 janpulsford says, "you can get to plug into your palm pilot?"
 oink says, "but the little yamaha...."
 janpulsford says, "someone should design one for the power book users"
 oink says, "CBX-K1, is handy"
 janpulsford says, "how big?"
 oink says, "3 8ve, and assignable controllers"
 oink says, "about 18" long"
 janpulsford says, "i have a tiny one that came with cyber studio"
 oink says, "can be battery or wall-wart"
 janpulsford says, "which is great for taking out on the road but my bro
wondered if there was an even tinier
one"
 janpulsford says, "one that folds up"
 oink says, "hard to find now, cause yamaha don't mention it on their
website"
 oink says, "haven't seen one"
 janpulsford says, "ok thanx"
 oink says, "the old bass-station is good too"
 oink says, "also, yamaha do these little workstations"
 oink says, "which are tiny"
 oink says, "smaller than a powerbook"
 janpulsford says, "yes i remember"
 oink says, "http://www.yamahasynth.com/pro/qy70/index.html"
 janpulsford says, "thanx ..  i'll email him the link"
 oink says, "hmm, yamaha don't even list the XG version of the CBX
anymore"
 oink says, "but some music stores still carry them, if you ask for
them"
 oink says, "anyone here doing jobs for clients 'in situ' ?"
 timmymacdd says, "no"
 oink says, "reason i ask, is i find a lot of my friends are doing that
kinda work lately"
 oink says, "packing the PT rig or whatever into the car and recording
bands, or artists intheir own home studios, when they need it"
 oink says, "or recording school choirs and such"
 timmymacdd says, "thats cool work ...."
 oink says, "and i figured it was  a good discussion point, since
technology is changing so quickly"
 oink says, "its just got to the point where powerbooks and such are a
viable option for this kinda work"
 timmymacdd says, "yes it is changing everything...people don't even
beleive that rocket is worth it"
 timmymacdd says, "i keep telling the people i work with to hook up here
and pay the fee but they think it doesn't work well enough....."
 oink says, "well, rocket fulfills a different function"
 oink says, "it will be working better and better, i promise"
 timmymacdd says, "it works great its just poeple don't want to take a
month to learn the software that goes with it"
 timmymacdd says, "but that is another topic ...sorry"
 Bop says, "hehe   there  is a  definite  learning  curve,  but  so far
I think it's  worth  it"
 oink says, "jan: you woulda liked the session we had going a coupla
days ago with onlinesupp-song, lennie and
joemagic1 and others, all throwing lyrics at each other"
 timmymacdd says, "that was cool"
 timmymacdd says, "i think it is just as easy to write online as it is
in a studio"
 Lennie says, "sure it is"
 oink says, "easier i think, if you can see the words in text"
 oink says, "but we really need some form of scratch-pad "
 timmymacdd says, "yes i wish we had a notepad to write the official
lyrics in the song"
 oink says, "included in RocketControl"
 timmymacdd says, "yes"
 timmymacdd says, "also"
 timmymacdd says, "it would be nice if we all could post edit notes in
every session"
 oink says, "it has been duly noted, we just gotta keep hammering away
to get it implemented"
 timmymacdd says, "is it good to get people over to rocket at this point
or not?"
 timmymacdd says, "the more the merrier right?"
 oink says, "yes it is"
 Lennie says, "yup thats right Tim"
 timmymacdd says, "cool"
 oink says, "and things are going from strength to strength with
reliability"
 oink says, "reliability is the #1 objective right now"
 timmymacdd says, "i try to advertise on other places while i'm out
cause i really think it is the best place for a band to write their
material"
 timmymacdd says, "this has been totally reliable"
 timmymacdd says, "more reliable then my drummer and bass
player....hehe"
 oink says, "hehe"
 timmymacdd says, "they never show and never on time"
 Bop says, "lets  not  get started about  keyboard  players  either"
 oink says, "so has anyone her been doin the powerbook thing ?"
 Lennie says, "no Ive done the adat thing for live recording"
 oink says, "I'm yearning for a decent audio interface to use, but my
budget has been off in another direction"
 oink says, "adat has been important for that"
 oink says, "I think these days people prefer a graphical interface if
they can get it"
 Lennie says, "a power book is more of a luxury for me that I cant
afford"
 Lennie says, "but it would be nice"
 oink says, "I know users who went to HDR sytems, and wanna get back to
computer-based systems"
 oink says, "i think we're getting spoiled by GUIs"
 Lennie says, "GUIs ?  "
 oink says, "graphical user interfaces, ie 'puters"
 timmymacdd says, "graphical ? interfaces"
 Lennie says, "ah  "
 Lennie says, "dials on a screen"
 timmymacdd says, "now money is not an object in getting a good demo
recorded though so that is far better...plus these dials can be
automated...i remember when you had to turn the dials manually as it was
playing back"
 oink says, "I think the graphical tracks and waveforms is what has
everyone hooked"
 oink says, "or people just wanna use the same app for recording as they
do their editing on"
 timmymacdd says, "is there a big sound difference between the two
systems?"
 timmymacdd says, "32 bit comp sounds good to me"
 oink says, "HDR definitely delivers the goods, sonically"
 oink says, "but its fiddly for setting up tracks etc"
 oink says, "and doing edits"
 oink says, "I've been looking at the combo of a powerbook with the new
Metric halo interface."
 oink says, "just looking of course, can't afford it now :("
 oink says, "that looks like it could be the total goods for a portable
solution"
 oink says, "anyone here have any troubles with transporting a desktop
and peripherals to do a recording ?"

 oink says, "do you have nay experience there ?"
 oink says, "looks like sessionover then"
 oink says, "timmy have you done any powerbook stuff ?"
 timmymacdd says, "i use pc"
 timmymacdd says, "hehe"
 oink says, "yeh theer are somenotebooks that people have had success
with"
 timmymacdd says, "i have a laptop but i like my pc better "
 oink says, "theyare getting there"
 oink says, "though the people I know whio record 'in the field' so to
speak"
 timmymacdd says, "my notebook records but if was going to do a real
recording i would just bring my pc......or my favorite thing now is to
get all the poeple i record to sign up here"
 oink says, "are still lugging their tower boxes"
 timmymacdd says, "hehe yep"
 timmymacdd says, "it is more trust worthy"
 oink says, "now that is the easiest for sure"
 timmymacdd says, "and it runs faster"








***********************************************************************
 Disclaimer: I have edited this chat substantially, but done my utmost
to maintain the sense of what was said. This is to be regarded as only a

precis of the actual chat, and any unforseen or contentious inference
that can be drawn form one line to the next, is purely unintentional on
my part, and cannot be attributed to the persons who posted the chat.

***********************************************************************

Dave Eager [oink]