The Logic Off Topic list

This past Wednesday in Audio Round-Table we touched on the relative
merits of various Audio I/O systems, and warnings about installing OSX
and its sffect on PACE authorisations , before getting down to the main
topic, which was 'hard drives, storage and backups'. Particularly we
shared opinions on what the best backup strategy is , and what should
our realistic expectaions be in archiving.

The session was attended by Timbook2, Brett, AWitt, DJ-Allard, LennieJ,
EB, oink, herman



The following is a substantially edited summary of the forum chat:

 oink says, "I'm still debating whether to get an 828 or not"
 oink says, "I notice at NAMM, aardvark announced a usb interface which
might be good for my powerbook"
 oink says, "so i could just go for a delta card or something for the
G4"
 Brett says, "what's the big debate in your head?"
 oink says, "or an EMI2/6 till I can afford something more powerful"
 Brett says, "stuff you need or don't need?"
 oink says, "need"
 Brett says, "cool enuf"
 oink says, "cause I think the 1212 will be history with OSX"
 Brett says, "1212 is already history"
 Timbook2 says, "forget osx as long as you can"
 oink says, "even now the 1212 drivers are getting a bit fractious"
 oink says, "too old"
 Brett says, "Logic on OS X coming soon!"
 Timbook2 says, "i don't go even near it with tweezers"
 Timbook2 says, "yes and all tdm-pace floppy installs are lost "
 oink says, "oh shit"
 Timbook2 says, "well poor emagic is being chased by all these new
things"
 oink says, "oh well  hang on I only have a few pace installs"
 oink says, "which don't work good anyway"
 oink says, "Orange vocoder and retroAS-1"
 Timbook2 says, "i already know some poor blokes who installed osx on
their protools rig"
 Timbook2 says, "lost all their installation instances"
 oink says, "well for PT that's an expensive loss"
 oink says, "but is that with OSX 10.1 beta ?"
 Timbook2 says, "any OSX will kill all your pace floppy installs"
 oink says, "dave B is pretty upbeat about it too"
 Timbook2 says, "but that still wont be a reason for me to infect my PT
rig with that killer hehe"
 Brett says, "PT will be last on OS X"
 Timbook2 says, "for sure....still many PT users on nubus"
 oink says, "you have a big investment to protect"
 Timbook2 says, "each of these plugins between 600-1000 $"
 oink says, "yes indeed"
 Timbook2 says, "i hear creamware hardware kicks protools ass these
days"
 Timbook2 says, "latency wise etc"
 oink says, "scope ?"
 Timbook2 says, "yes all these cards"
 oink says, "what about DSP power though ?"
 Timbook2 says, "yes dsp power is there but very expensive too"
 oink says, "surely PT still has the DSP edge"
 Timbook2 says, "not really"
 Timbook2 says, "you can build a similar power with creamware"
 oink says, "what about Paris and things like that ?"
 Timbook2 says, "its just not the standard PT is"
 oink says, "how do they compare ?"
 Timbook2 says, "i know a guy in nashville who swears on paris "
 Timbook2 says, "but that's about it"
 Timbook2 says, "nuendo is supposed to sound a lot better too"
 LennieJ says, "well lots think logic is just as good"
 oink says, "it will be interesting t see how the quality is with the
DSP version of  metric halo"
 Timbook2 says, "a friend ordered the MH box in april ...its still not
here"
 Timbook2 says, "they are not shipping it ...promised may ...now we have
august"
 oink says, "well, what's unusual about that ?"
 oink says, "it was years before they shipped scope, after they first
announced it"
 LennieJ says, "I sold all my PT sftw & hdwr he he"


 Timbook2 says, "do we have a topic then ?"
 oink says, "well  it was hard drives and storage and backups"
 Timbook2 says, "i have a good tip for all you scsi folks out there"
 Timbook2 says, "there is a company at www.scsi2ide"
 Timbook2 says, "that sells little adaptors that stick onto any ide
drive and make it scsi"
 LennieJ says, "harddrives & backups is a good topic"
 Timbook2 says, "and ide drives are cheap !"
 Timbook2 says, "60 gb ide drives go for 300 $"
 Timbook2 says, "or even less now"
 LennieJ says, "what is the most reliable add on hard drive?"
 Timbook2 says, "ibm IMO"
 Timbook2 says, "the deskstar models"
  oink says, "IBM for my money too"
 oink says, "actually I've stuck with IBM for a number of years now"
 LennieJ says, "deskstar is good oink already turned me on to them"
 Timbook2 says, "yes"
 LennieJ says, "what about scsi drives?"
 Timbook2 says, "another option is DDS 3 drives"
 Timbook2 says, "well no more scsi drives for me...too expensive"
 Timbook2 says, "they don't make the 50 pin models anymore"
 Timbook2 says, "and that's all i need here"
 oink says, "I think SCSI is only worth it for high track count and
video users these days"
 Timbook2 says, "for video yes"
 EB says, "i find my scsi drives pretty fast but not hugely different
from ide..but its important to remember they draw more power from the
psu"
 Timbook2 says, "for track count i prefer to spread them over many discs
anyway"
 Timbook2 says, "did anybody have a look at www.scsi2ide yet?"
 EB says, "yes im going to show ellis"
 EB says, "he's going to be sceptical im sure hehe"
 Timbook2 says, "its a german guy...young chap i know him"
 Timbook2 says, "I have it running since 2 months now and all is cool"
 EB says, "ok cool"
 LennieJ says, "K so your ata drives are gettin full"
 LennieJ says, "what's a good cheap alternative for perm storage"
 Timbook2 says, "buy a new drive"
 oink says, "i think that is cheapest these days"
 Timbook2 says, "or get a tape backup...very costly but most safe"
 LennieJ says, "K so U just plug em in & unplug em as U need "
 Timbook2 says, "DDS3 does 12 gb on 1 tape"
 oink says, "and its so easy to swap drives. Well there was a long
debate on DAT Vs CD on the lug list some time
back"
 Timbook2 says, "but costs a lot !!"
 Timbook2 says, "i don't like CD too much"
 Timbook2 says, "1st : it writes errors"
 Timbook2 says, "2nd you never know how long it lasts"
 Timbook2 says, "i have some 4 year old CDs that already have read
errors"
 Timbook2 says, "i never burned faster than 4x"
 oink says, "that's true"
 oink says, "but how old is your drive ?"
 Timbook2 says, "hehe very old "
 Timbook2 says, "one of the first yamahas"
 Timbook2 says, "i think model is 1000 or so"
 oink says, "very good drive though"
 Timbook2 says, "yep"
 Timbook2 says, "i still burn CDs of course but not for long term
safety"
 Timbook2 says, "long term safety is tape or just a drive I think"
 oink says, "but how long do you really need ?"
 Timbook2 says, "good question"
 Timbook2 says, "i try to make timeless music so I want it to last hehe"

 oink says, "do your client expect you archive for 10 years ?"
 LennieJ says, "well I tell them I will hold tapes or files for 5 yrs"
 Timbook2 says, "if i made hip hop or techno the tunes have a half life
of 1 month so who cares"
 oink says, "5 yrs seems reasonable"
 LennieJ says, "after that its their problem"
 Timbook2 says, "yes that's the time range CDs will hold too"
 Timbook2 says, "if you burn them nice and slow"
 oink says, "I had a lot of issues with removable media"
 oink says, "I definitely won't go there again"
 Timbook2 says, "i heard optical drives were pretty good"
 Timbook2 says, "but too expensive"
 oink says, "yes, optical drives are used a lot by the AV media"
 Timbook2 says, "others make their backups on adat tapes too"
 oink says, "and its interesting yamaha chose optical for their HDR
devices"
 oink says, "I would think ADAT would be no less risky than CD"
 Timbook2 says, "in germany post pro is done entirely on optical"
 LennieJ says, "adat is very reliable"
 LennieJ says, "if U put them away & don't touch em"
 Timbook2 says, "yes"
 Timbook2 says, "in a dry room"
 LennieJ says, "yup"
 oink says, "store them vertically"
 Timbook2 says, "still i think with prices for ide drives so low its
cheaper to just buy a swappable tray and move the drives"
 LennieJ says, "but the prob arises when U have a client who has done a
hard disc recording"
 LennieJ says, "& comes back 3 yrs later for a remix"
 oink says, "what about archiving on-line, do you think there might be a
place for that ?"
 oink says, "as bandwidth increases"
 Timbook2 says, "online storage is way too expensive "
 Timbook2 says, "pop in the drive and go "
 Timbook2 says, "dave walker and I just installed a hot swappable ide
drive into his G4"
 Timbook2 says, "into the Cd drive bay"
 LennieJ says, "that's what I was asking about perm reliable storage"
 Timbook2 says, "what a surgery"
 oink says, "cool"
 oink says, "firewire ?"
 Timbook2 says, "when we finally had it in there the blue plastic lid
wouldn't come back on..."
 Timbook2 says, "no ide"
 Timbook2 says, "i mean ata"
 Timbook2 says, "anyway we powered the baby up and booted logic....comes
he message EXS requires the CD
rom ....boooo"
 Timbook2 says, "no CD rom"
 oink says, "LOL"
 Timbook2 says, "i hate those G4 s"
 oink says, "well it looks like LA5 will have dongle authorisation"
 Timbook2 says, "i think they are a nightmare"
 LennieJ says, "U think G4s are a nightmare?"
 oink says, "my old beige G3/233, now that's a nightmare"
 Timbook2 says, "i will stay with my old 9500 as long as i can"
 Timbook2 says, "9600-350 s now go for 500 $"
 LennieJ says, "I was just lookin at trading up to the dual 850 he he"
 oink says, "yeh, but there are a lotta things that require G3 minimum"
 oink says, "softsynths and stuff"
 Timbook2 says, "well having taken apart the G4 with dave last week i
saw how flimsy it was built and how design reigned over practical needs"

 Timbook2 says, "i have a G3-450 in my 9500 and its still holding up to
the task"
 Timbook2 says, "surely not as fast as a G4 but then...."
 oink says, "oh 604 based macs are the last of the all hi-quality
machines for sure"
 oink says, "but if they had stayed on that road"
 oink says, "a new G4/800DP would cost more than a car"
 LennieJ says, "well your old G3 hangs in cause its a Mac"
 Timbook2 says, "right"
 Timbook2 says, "i think if i upgrade my mac situation i only go for
powerbooks from now on"
 LennieJ says, "hey I was lookin at one today he he"
 Timbook2 says, "for me powerbook is the future"
 Timbook2 says, "i bought an i-book 500 for my wife"
 oink says, "yeh, but can you leave a PB running for days"
 Timbook2 says, "that small thing kicks ass !!"
 Timbook2 says, "enough of those desktoppers"
 oink says, "I have dreams of a TiPB sitting atop a metric halo box"
 Timbook2 says, "cant wait to see my friend stephen here with the
titanic and the metric halo box"
 Timbook2 says, "just what he's dreaming too"
 Timbook2 says, "if it works he sells his PT rig....he says"
 oink says, "how many tracks can you really run off a PB drive though"
 Timbook2 says, "and what about firewire drives?"
 LennieJ says, "U cant sell me on powerbooks "
 Timbook2 says, "when the firewire is already occupied by MH ?"
 Brett says, "Maxtor 80 gig Firewire SUCKS!!!!!!!!!"
 Timbook2 says, "i hear people say the pismo G3-500 has more horsepower
and 2 firewire ports"
 oink says, "there is still the issue of the firewire bus being too
narrow to handle an interface and a drive"
 Brett says, "Only one firewire bus there"
 Timbook2 says, "maxtor sucks yes brett"
 oink says, "you need a separate card or one"
 oink says, "I'll upgrade my wallstreet to a pismo soon"
 Timbook2 says, "doesn't the pismo 500 have 2 firewires brett?"
 Brett says, "i believe that it is 1 port w/2 I/Os"
 Brett says, "could be wrong"
 Brett says, "err... one bus"
 oink says, "one bus yes"
 oink says, "same on the TiPB"
 Timbook2 says, "ok"
 oink says, "and its not enuf bandwidth to run an external drive too"
 Timbook2 says, "so that is a whole new territory to beta test"
 Timbook2 says, "in this case paying beta testing"
 oink says, "I think , if I had a TiPB as my only machine"
 oink says, "I'd look at the IBM travelstar drives"
 Brett says, "it's plenty of bandwidth for DV at least and minimum of 10
tracks of 16/44 or more"
 Timbook2 says, "i would get the small usb audio interface..stereo"
 Brett says, "USB audio? ouch"
 Brett says, "USB is a placeholder for firewire"
 Timbook2 says, "i saw it work s fine on the pismo of a friend"
 oink says, "well lets see how it goes"
 oink says, "it seems we have USB3 now"
 Timbook2 says, "usb stereo for audio in out and a firewire drive for
the track count"
 Timbook2 says, "is my bet"
 LennieJ says, "well sorry but my idea idea of a power book is a 15 buck
cassette recorder U can carry in your shirt pocket "
 Timbook2 says, "i just put a 20gb drive into my lombard ....150$ for
the drive"
 Brett says, "MS has gone for firewire in XP, USB is going away for
anything requiring bandwidth"
 Timbook2 says, "i see"
 Timbook2 says, "but how are we supposed to get high track count with 1
firewire bus?"
 Brett says, "Wait"
 oink says, "cool, so MS has given up on the format war that was
reputedly being waged ?"
 Brett says, "It's the controllers/translators that are the bottleneck"
 Timbook2 says, "i still have the vxpocket for audio here and it sounds
great"
 Brett says, "MS announced they will fully support firewire for
bandwidth-intensive peripherals"
 Brett says, "Not that I care - but it plays into Apple's hands - hehe"
 Timbook2 says, "in what way?"
 oink says, "firewire is apple's baby"
 Brett says, "Apple wrote the firewire spec and owns the original spec
and code"
 Timbook2 says, "ahhhhh that's it"
 Timbook2 says, "so what about usb ??"
 oink says, "i think usb was MS's"
 Brett says, "I believe that USB will fade away over the next two years
as the redubdancy becomes apparent"
 Brett can't type
 oink says, "so you feel there will be firewire keyboard etc ?"
 Brett says, "Of course, "redubdancy" could be a future music trend ;)"
 LennieJ says, "so what's wrong with USB?"
 oink says, "yes, lets do that"
 oink says, "lets own redubdancy"
 Brett says, "mLan is growing REALLY fast"
 Brett says, "lol"
 Timbook2 says, "the Yamaha thing?"
 oink says, "tell me about it, I still haven't sighted any product in
the stores"
 Brett says, "yeah"
 oink says, "still waiting for an mLAN interface for my KB"
 Brett says, "Go to the Sound On Sound Website, back issues, search for
mLan for great info"
 Brett says, "err... mLan"
 DJ-Allard says, "I have the issue on mLAN"
 oink says, "of course mLAN is designed for bigger things"
 DJ-Allard has left the Session
 LennieJ says, "Im still waiting for the shoelaces that tie themselves"
 Brett says, "This protocol will definitely win - mLan rocks and solves
so many problems"
 oink says, "than just audio/midi"
 Brett says, "Shoelace-mLan is still in development"
 Brett says, "One cable for all devices - audio, midi, synch, with
software routing for all"
 Timbook2 says, "as redubdancy"
 Brett says, "but you have to tie your own shoes"
 Timbook2 says, "so you think yamaha will win this and make it a
standard?"
 Brett says, "Yes, I just copywrited "Redubdancy".... stand back, my
lawyers haven't been fed today ;)"
 Timbook2 says, "LOL"
 Timbook2 says, "good one !!"
 oink says, "well mLAN will be everywhere eventually"
 oink says, "from your fridge to your hifi to your 'puter to your oven"
 Brett says, "Did you guys cover the subject of backing up gigs worth of
data yet?"
 Timbook2 says, "buy a new ide drive and swap it"
 oink says, "DAT is expensive but effective"
 LennieJ says, "have lots & lots of CDs on hand"
 Brett says, "Hard drives do not qualify as backup - Rule One"
 oink says, "maybe magneto-optical might be the most secure"
 Timbook2 says, "why ?"
 Timbook2 says, "brett?"
 Brett says, "Cause they crash"
 Timbook2 says, "why not store on to drives?"
 Brett says, "Cause both crash"
 oink says, "everything can crash"
 Timbook2 says, "well if i buy a new one , dump the data onto it and
leave it there for  months??"
 Brett says, "CDs don't crash - they do something else. But they are TOO
SMALL!"
 Timbook2 says, "never touching it til needed?"
 oink says, "dvd"
 Brett says, "yes"
 Timbook2 says, "dvd would be nice yes"
 Timbook2 says, "too expensive still"
 Brett says, "and storing correctly - RULE TWO: it's not backed up
without three copies"
 Timbook2 says, "true !!"
 Timbook2 says, "at least 2"
 oink says, "well 3 copies would make CD viable"
 Timbook2 says, "in my book"
 oink says, "especially if you use different brands of media"
 LennieJ says, "well I opt for good old tape "
 Brett says, "Good old linear slow rusty tape"
 LennieJ says, "yup "
 Brett says, "My video collection testifies: all my tapes over 8 years
old are not playable"
 LennieJ says, "it hasnt let me down yet"
 LennieJ says, "I have 16 track masters  here 20 yrs old that play back
as good as  the day they were recorded"
 Brett says, "Lennie - I hear you, understood"
 Timbook2 says, "that play back in 20 years as today??"
 Timbook2 says, "i backed up all the old sessions"
 Timbook2 says, "i can re post them anytime brett"
 Brett says, "All my friends with tapes over 15 years old had to bake
them, play once, and dump to digital"
 Timbook2 says, "must be the humid climate"
 LennieJ says, "well they didnt know how to store them he he"
 oink says, "well that depends on the tape, I've heard of 30-40 yo tape
that don't need baking"
 Timbook2 says, "in berlin they last at least 30 years ..I know cause I
remastered many in the 80s"
 oink says, "its a matter of luck"
 oink says, "on what tape they bought"
 Brett says, "Well stored expensive 2-inch 16 track tapes... almost
lost"
 Brett says, "Yes - batches varied quite a bit"
 Timbook2 says, "must be the san andreas fault"
 oink says, "expense has nothing to do with it"
 LennieJ says, "well I always use ampex 246 "
 Brett says, "Yes, it's San Andreas' fault!"
 LennieJ says, "its never dropped out on me"
 oink says, "some tape formulations lasted better than others"
 Brett says, "Lennie - you have good skills and practices"
 Timbook2 says, "yes some tapes had issues"
 Brett says, "But Lennie, what about 10 more years?"
 Timbook2 says, "i remember BASF almost went awol when they sent out
faulty tape and got sued in germany in the 70s""
 LennieJ says, "how do U make it last as long as U can?"
 Timbook2 says, "soooooo.....backup is tape heh?"
 Timbook2 says, "DDS 3 I guess "
 oink says, "I guess, for those with the resources"
 LennieJ says, "well tape or 3 CD copies he he"
 oink says, "I'll opt for 3 CD copies, but tape is the easiest"
 LennieJ says, "or 4 hard drives"
 oink says, "microdrives might be an option too, when they get big
enough, storage wise"
 LennieJ says, "U cant preserve multi track recordings on CD though"
 LennieJ says, "what if U want to remix something 10 yrs from now"
 oink says, "I'm talkin about saving audiofiles "
 oink says, "usually with a logic song"
 Timbook2 says, "1 song easily gets into the 650mb range "
 oink says, "but I'm thinking it would make a lotta sense to be more
rigorous about timestamping the files"
 Timbook2 says, "if its more than that...happy file shuffling"
 oink says, "I do that, one song per CD"
 oink says, "and keep writing to it as the session progresses"
 oink says, "then it will overflow to  a second CD as I pile up
alternative mixes"
 LennieJ says, "Hmmm"
 LennieJ says, "well I mix &m save to CD "
 LennieJ says, "I have numerous mixes of the tunes i like to keep"
 LennieJ says, "so hopefully if I loose. the stuff of the drive at least
theres a pile of mixes to choose from"
 LennieJ says, "he he"
 LennieJ says, "& then U make copies of them"










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 Disclaimer: I have edited this chat substantially, but done my utmost
to maintain the sense of what was said. This is to be regarded as only a

precis of the actual chat, and any unforseen or contentious inference
that can be drawn form one line to the next, is purely unintentional on
my part, and cannot be attributed to the persons who posted the chat.

***********************************************************************

Dave Eager [oink]