The Logic Off Topic list

This past Wednesday in Audio Round-Table we discussed pre-mastering our
mixes. When to limit and , what we use for EQ and compression. Then, we
moved on to discussion of commercial arrangements for sessions on
rocketnetwork, and how we want to deal with payment and trust issues in
the future.

The session was attended by LennieJ, mojen, Dave, BetaBrett, remixqueen,
DJ-Allard, societynon and oink.
The following is a heavily edited summary of the forum chat:

 oink says,  "ok , then , to get the ball rolling"
 oink says,  "can i have a show of hands.."
 oink says,  "who uses Waves plugins ?"
 mojen  raises hand
 remixqueen says, "occasionally but only on my DAE machine"
 oink says,  "who uses T-racks ?"
 Dave  does also
 mojen says, "mojen raises hand"
 oink says,  "who uses Ionizer ?"
 oink says,  "no-one I guess"
 Dave says, "whazat?"
 oink says,  "Arboretum Ionizer is a multiband EQ etc that allows you to
'steal' EQ curves from other recordings"
 oink says,  "and does EQ-morphing and a whole bunch of other neat
stuff"
 oink says,  "any other favourites for putting that finishing gleam on
our audio gems ?"
 mojen says, "waveburner, sometimes"
 oink says,  "waveburner-pro ?"
 mojen says, "it has a nice multi-band compressor that they haven't put
in logic yet."
 LennieJ says, "I"
 oink says,  "yes, that will be nice in 5.0"
 mojen says, "And also a denoiser that's not bad if you don't have
anything else."
 oink says,  "Ok , then I'd like to mine the collected wisdom of the
group"
 oink says,  "and ask what you feel about Limiting before the final mix,
and after ?"
 oink says,  "any  takers ?"
 LennieJ says, "depends on the material "
 Dave says, "totaly"
  mojen says, "i usually don't limit until the final mix."
  oink says,  "lest say a on a  dense mix with lots of horns and synths
and stuff"
  LennieJ says, "I try not to limit at all"
  Dave says, "some tracks get some compression, or limiting ... but not
the whole mix, for me"
  LennieJ says, "same here Dave"
  mojen says, "i'll use a compressor/limiter on the final mix to squeeze
the last few db's out of the
overall volume, especially if it's going to mp3"
  Dave says, "I just switch between the best mastered disc I have that
is similar to the material, without any mastering ... and try to get it
as close as I can..."
  mojen says, "ditto here on that technique as well"
  Dave says, "then I run it all thru my Aphex, with big bottom (girth
baby)"
  Dave says, "Anyone use BBE, or Aphex for tracking or mastering?"
  LennieJ says, "BBE is cool"
  LennieJ says, "Ive tried that but dont use it reg"
  LennieJ says, "adds a nice sparkle"
  LennieJ says, "how about spectrum analylisers?"
  mojen says, "I just got the PSP plugins, and there is a stereo
analyzer amongst the bunch.  I've only used it a few times, but it's
helpful."
  oink says,  "I haven't used that yet, but I like the mixsaturator"
  Dave says, "how does one use a spectrum analyser in mastering? What do
you look for?"
  mojen says, "the psp plugins are quite impressive, especially when you
consider the price"
  oink says,  "thats what  I wanna know too, usually I can hear if a
certain range is over the top, and the
analyser just confirms it"
  oink says,  "I've only used spectrum anyalyser to try and save some
distorted harp which sounds crap"
  LennieJ says, "U get an iteresting mix by flatlining every freq"
  LennieJ says, "he he"
  LennieJ says, "& then limit it all"
  LennieJ says, "bringing up all the buried frquencies"
  LennieJ says, "Use the graphic EQ ta bring up the buried freq"
  LennieJ says, "I dont know if U can do it within logic"
  oink says,  "you could, with fat EQ"
  oink says,  "that is the sort of process that Ionizer is excellent for
though"
  LennieJ says, "yes but as U bring up the buried freq U have to turn
the other  down"
  LennieJ says, "or U wind up with way to much gain"
  oink says,  "well fat EQ is very customisable"
  LennieJ says, "so an EQ with gain control  is what I used for that"
  oink says,  "i don't know how close to   Q10 it gets though"
  LennieJ says, "but it usually fixes a lot of thinge U couldnt get EQ
right on individual tracks"
  LennieJ says, "for a quick fix hehe"
  oink says,  "how many of you got the PSP plugs ?"
  mojen raises hand
  oink says,  "I did too"
  oink says,  "are you using the presets ?"
  mojen says, "i used the presets as a starting point to figure out
exactly what all the knobs mean.  now i'm starting to create my own.
i've only had the plugins for about a week."
 oink says,  "yeh, i didn't realise there were any presets at first"
  oink says,  "how would you compare them to waves plugs /"
  oink says,  "?"
  mojen says, "the psp plugins have a distinct "sound", where the waves
plugins are more transparent.  but i happen to dig that "sound," so i'm
loving them! "
  oink says,  "yeh, the sound reminds me a little of T-Racks too, but
clearer"
  mojen says, "i was never really happy with t-racks.  it's probably
just me, but i couldn't ever get the sound i was looking for out of it."

  oink says,  "yeh, T-Racks takes alot of tweeking "
  mojen says, "i'm still waiting for the "perfect mix" preset:  just
click and go."
  oink says,  "well i fooled around trying to do that with Ionizer"
  mojen says, "and?"
  oink says,  "load prince album as the source"
  oink says,  "oh i think it takes a lot of experience to get the
eq-morphing thing right"
  oink says,  "it works, but you have to be very careful choosing
source"
  oink says,  "what it is good for though, is acheiving consistency over
an album"
  oink says,  "find which track you want the lot to sound most like and
apply the curves to the rest"
  mojen says, "how would you compare ionizer to the other products you
mentioned?"
  oink says,  "free-filter sorta does the same, but ionozer is way more
advanced"
  oink says,  "well I'd much rather use Ionizer than   Q10"
  oink says,  "for overall EQ curve  adjustment"
  oink says,  "but   Q10 is good for individual tracks i think"
  mojen says, "how do you use the standalone hyperprism?  is it a pain
to exit logic and go back and forth?"
  oink says,  "no its not a pain, but i use hyperprism mainly as a
sound-design tool"
  mojen says, "would the effects be useful as vst plugins?"
  oink says,  "take a sample into hyperprism and hit it with as much as
i can get away with, and bring it back to logic for loops and stuff"
  oink says,  "oh its a very creative tool"
  oink says,  "especially teh pitch-time plug"
  oink says,  "you have a number of parameters assined to X and Y axes"
  oink says,  "and draw the pass with your mouse"
  oink says,  "all customisable"
  mojen says, "i'm downloading the demo...  it all sounds very cool."
  oink says,  "and then you can layer the effects"
  oink says,  "then you can save that to be applied to another sound
file"
  oink says,  "ok i guess this subject is at a dead end"


  oink says,  "is there anything you guys would rather discuss ? like
getting people to commit to finishing collaborations ?"
  oink says,  "lennie, you do pretty well getting collab sessions
finished"
  oink says,  "do you have any special tips ?"
  LennieJ says, "Hmmm  not really "
  mojen says, "bribes? "
  oink says,  "or is just beeing logged in all the time the thing ?"
  mojen says, ";-)"
  oink says,  "i wonder what we can do to make thes things pan out
better"
  LennieJ says, "well I just invite the peops who I think would like the
tune"
  oink says,  "should I start being the man-with-the-whip-for-hire"
  oink says,  "'did you do your homework yet ?"
  oink says,  "NO!, well no new sessions for you today !"

  LennieJ says, "if U log in & nap in a session  someone will show up he
he"
  DJ-Allard says, "true"
  mojen says, "lennie, are you using your collaborative recordings
commercially?"
  LennieJ says, "yes some of the private sessions "
  mojen says, "how do you negotiate payment?"
  LennieJ says, "by giving a share of the rights"
  oink says,  "ah, well that is purely a private matter at the moment"
  LennieJ says, "I cant see any other way ta do it at this time"
  mojen says, "do you fax or e-mail contracts?  "
  oink says,  "but we have discussed ,in this forum, whether there
should be an escrow company involved"
  LennieJ says, "nope  its an honour system he he"
  oink says,  "well, pay-per-track is another alternative"
  LennieJ says, "I plan on sending socan documents to all "
  LennieJ says, "just a agreement as to how rights are divided"
  oink says,  "but at the moment its all on the never-never, which means
rights when the project comes to fruition"
  mojen says, "so the collaborators will be paid when you get paid?
something like that?"
  LennieJ says, "well yes  obviously all contributions cant always be
used"
  LennieJ says, "ya thats basically it mojen"
  LennieJ says, "if I make money they make it too"
  mojen says, "Here's an example for me:  i'm scoring a short film right
now.  if i wanted one of you folks to work on a piece, there are no
rights to be shared.  it is strictly a work for hire.  would you work on
it and then wait for me to mail you a check?"
  oink says,  "yes"
  oink says,  "we would do that"
  LennieJ says, "I prob would "
  oink says,  "and trust you"
  oink says,  "but we feel we know you"
  mojen says, "ah, the trust factor"
  LennieJ says, "well ya  U ve been around for a while  "
  LennieJ says, "& on a pay per track basis  theres not a whole lot of
money he he"
  oink says,  "we need a method of official record though"
  oink says,  "some record of arrangements"
  DJ-Allard says, "That would be sensible"
  LennieJ says, "so  trust is easy "
  DJ-Allard says, "Trust is never easier........."
  mojen says, "but there is no official method in the non-cyber world.
i think it must just come down to trust."
  oink says,  "well , true"
  DJ-Allard says, "Its the only way"
  oink says,  "paper contracts aren't always honest or enforcable"
  mojen says, "And checks bounce."
  DJ-Allard says, "theres always flaws with any system"
  oink says,  "sure"
  oink says,  "so its good policy for you to be able to ask someone else
you know if user X seems legit or not"
  mojen says, "but if you get a private studio and use who you trust
(just like you would in your non-virtual studio), then you should be ok,
right?"
  DJ-Allard says, "Users could also give feedback on other users, which
could then be included in the personel profiles"
  oink says,  "maybe we can have our own jargon"
  LennieJ says, "well U cant go putting + or- beside someones icon he
he"
  oink says,  "yeh, I man having ratings in writing could open up a
legal can of worms"
  DJ-Allard says, ".......true"
  oink says,  "but if you had a friend, or friends"
  oink says,  "who use the system a lot"
  LennieJ says, "thats trouble   discrimination & all"
  oink says,  "they could give you some clues"
  LennieJ says, "yup"
  LennieJ says, "I have  found Im only workin with 3 or 4 peops in that
serios kind of a way"
  oink says,  "anyway, networking is key"
  mojen says, "it seems like the seriuos folks are too busy making music
to cause trouble"
  oink says,  "you gotta be able to have a community so you can get to
know these things"
  DJ-Allard says, "I think if you can build a good relationship with the
people you work with, i.e phone calls,  meet up, etc, it gives you more
trust in them"
  oink says,  "yes, but phone calls can get expensive"
  DJ-Allard says, "International maybe"
  oink says,  "we wanna be able to do it all within this domain"
  DJ-Allard says, "well it obviously depends on distance"
  LennieJ says, "well the messaging works pretty good"
  LennieJ says, "still not that personal though"
  oink says,  "video conferencing too"
  DJ-Allard says, "web cams"
  oink says,  "is much more personal"
  oink says,  "like iVisit"
  mojen says, "web cams might scare poeple away"
  DJ-Allard says, "I might come to think of it"


***********************************************************************
 Disclaimer: I have edited this chat substantially, but done my utmost
to maintain the sense of what was said. This is to be regarded as only a

precis of the actual chat, and any unforseen or contentious inference
that can be drawn form one line to the next, is purely unintentional on
my part, and cannot be attributed to the persons who posted the chat.

***********************************************************************

Dave Eager [oink]