The Logic Off Topic list

This past Wednesday in Audio Round-Table we started the discussion with
standalone audio editor s/w, but soon moved into 'using 2-track editors
for transferring audio files. Then we moved on to a discussion of Super
Audio CD format .

The session was attended by Brett, skwawksoun, janpulsford, Vesaa,
Hanno, Jody, BrianF, DJ-Allard, MC, MixMasterMark and oink

The following is a substantially edited summary of the forum chat:

Brett says, "Dave - BTW... for a future topic:\ufffdworking with video on
Rocket\ufffd
You say, "yes indeed, I'd like you to give us a
little talk on that Brett :)"

 Vesaa says, "Hi,all what's the topic?"
 oink says, "well i set it as standalone audio and FX  editors"
 Vesaa says, "ok"
 oink says, "and what do we use and do we use them at all anymore"
 oink says, "well first for news: Dave B has closed the Logic FAQ site"
 Vesaa says, "noticed:-("
 skwawksoun says, "aaarrrggghhh"
 skwawksoun says, "why doesn't he charge an annual fee[small]"
 oink says, "a lotta folx expect to get everything for free on the net"
 Vesaa says, "since Lug is free"
 skwawksoun says, "it's saved my bacon a few times , i'd cough up to
keep him going "
 oink says, "yhe, but the faq site was easier to get answers from "
 Vesaa says, "It was i know and,in overall,it was more controlled"
 skwawksoun says, "He'll be missed "
 oink says, "yes, much better for troubleshooting"
 skwawksoun says, "tell him thanx anyway"
 oink says, "will do"
 Vesaa says, "Name one standalone audio editor for me ,so I get a better
grasp of the issue"
 oink says, "well Peak, hyperprism, SonicWorx"
 Vesaa says, "got it"
 skwawksoun says, "like t rax"
 BrianF says, "Wave Burner?"
 oink says, "I guess too"
 BrianF says, "Wavelab?"
 oink says, "do you have waveburner Pro ?"
 oink says, "yes wavelab too"
 BrianF says, "yes"
 oink says, "cause we have been caught up in the plug-in bonanza lately"

 oink says, "so do these apps still do a better job ?"
 BrianF says, "better than within LOGIC or cubase?"
 oink says, "yes"
 BrianF says, "for me, yes"
 oink says, "can you tell us your experience ?"
 oink says, "for instance wavelab"
 oink says, "how does that work better than Logic Sample edit [I'm mac
so I don't know]"
 BrianF says, "I guess it depends on what job you need to do. Wavelab is
very fast and sonically very good. Being
able to stack plug-ins, make a cd with PQ codes ect"
 oink says, "oh good, that is a big point with standalone editors"
 oink says, "they often work faster, or are easier to use quickly I
mean"
 oink says, "how is waveburner pro shaping up ?"
 BrianF says, "yes and easier to setup with a sound card"
 BrianF says, "Waveburner is great. A couple of things that need to be
tweaked but overall I think it is great for what it's designed to do"
 oink says, "I myself still use hyperprism  a bit, mainly for sound
design possibilities"
 BrianF says, "for sound design you are right . For 2 track editing
Wavelab "
 BrianF says, "So do we need an editor with Rocket in it?"
 oink says, "well some users have suggested that"
 oink says, "but do you think it would help ?"
 oink says, "like for instance if, someone had  a track they brought to
you for mastering ?"
 BrianF says, "well now they can send it via LogicRocket"
 oink says, "but not in source quality"
 oink says, "Logicrocket is compressed-only"
 BrianF says, "I didn't know that! I do have some people wanting to FTP
things to me as well"
 oink says, "though you may be able to tweek the compression real low"
 oink says, "FTP is good"
 BrianF says, "low compression wouldn't cut it"
 oink says, "thats what i mean"
 BrianF says, "FTP is cool. Also some have used I Tools accounts to post
files for me"
 BrianF says, "Especially if they don't have LOGIC or cubase"
 oink says, "yeh iDisk is handy, but it plays hell with your 'puter
when logged in "
 oink says, "really bogs down"
 BrianF says, "it's getting better lately"
 oink says, "oh cool"
 BrianF says, "but if "
 BrianF says, "everyone could rocket things it would be lovely"
 oink says, "yeh, it would make communication that much better"
 oink says, "so what s/w do your clients often have ?"
 BrianF says, "some use RADAR and mix to Masterlink or 1/2""
 oink says, "ok"
 BrianF says, "and some mix in PT"
 oink says, "well, i beleive euphonix is going rocketpowered"
 BrianF says, "they are suppose to have E- Desk"
 oink says, "they use a flavour of PT don't they ?"
 oink says, "isn't E-desk a form of PT ?"
 BrianF says, "I don't think so. I know the E Desk is first for PC and
it's mainly 2 track of 5.1"
 Vesaa says, "What is an E-desk?"
 oink says, "its software"
 BrianF says, "an app that Euphonix is getting ready to launch"
 Vesaa says, "I thought they were into mixers"
 oink says, "well, a whole studio solution"
 BrianF says, "I know that Euphonix is trying to get the labels into it
so people can send masters that way straight to the label"
 Vesaa says, "ok"
 oink says, "euphonix are a rocketnetwork development partner"
 Jody says, "So using the euphonix stuff would be like the rocket thing,
only geared towards the major labels?"
 BrianF says, "that's what I've been hearing"
 oink says,
"http://www.euphonix.com/news/2001/2001_Feb/SplashPageEDeck.htm"
 BrianF says, "I was just there, you are quick"
 oink says, "I have spoken to a number of producers on here"
 oink says, "who mainly want a way of sending mixes to their labels"
 oink says, "so they can have them vetted etc and for fast turnaround"
 BrianF says, "yes it will save time and less remixes  possibly"
 Jody says, "save the label a few bucks that the artist still won't
see."
 BrianF says, "true"
 oink says, "even in NYC  or LA or nashville, oline transfer would be
much faster than courier-ing CDs or tapes"
 oink says, "by the time the mix gets passed back and forth afew times"
 oink says, "days can go by"
 BrianF says, "instant feedback as well"
 oink says, "well private sessions are secure, no need to let anyone
have access"
 BrianF says, "a simple app like this that labels can have vs having
LOGIC or cubase or PT"
 oink says, "yes"
 oink says, "so maybe a two track player of some sort"
 Jody says, "I think this puts too many hands into the pot when the
artist is recording their material. A&R people
generally dont' know a good song when they hear one. They always have to
have a meeting about it. Don't want to lose the job."
 BrianF says, "this way they can listen on NS10 that are out of phase or
out of wack"
 Vesaa says, "Based on my experiences,if you you give them more more
mixes than two ,you're heading for
trouble.Too many options ,they'll go crazy"
 Vesaa says, "you'll be mixing forever"
 Jody says, "Good musicians get screwed when suits force a sound upon
them."
 BrianF says, "but if you give them the final mix only. you gotta give
it to them some time"
 skwawksoun says, "yes its very easy to say do this and send it back"
 skwawksoun says, "no decision "
 oink says, "just gonna read a bit about E-desk"
 BrianF says, "they are going to have it recalled anyhow why not get it
then"
 skwawksoun says, "true"
 Vesaa says, "They like visiting the actual studio:How's it been,is this
stereo now,ETC"
 skwawksoun says, "you could keep the vibe alive with less time"
 skwawksoun says, "in between"
 BrianF says, "sure that will stil have to happen. But if I'm finished
with a mix and the president it LA for a meeting I
don't want to wait for him to get back"
 oink says, "So many more dance producers etc are working from home or
project studios  today"
 BrianF says, "alot are and it will only grow"
 Vesaa says, "Anything with Euphonix logo is outta reach for a project
studio"
 BrianF says, "not only dance. I'm doing mastering and mixing out of my
house"
 BrianF says, "Not true about E-desk"
 BrianF says, "It's really a transfer app"
 Jody says, "but it seems you would need a pretty damn fast connection
to make the files worth while."
 Jody says, "If you're a studio and only have 56k, forget it."
 oink says, "all this is based on bandwidth "
 BrianF says, "that will go away in the next few years and all studio,
labels will have fast pipes"
 oink says, "by 2007 everyone will have bandwidth available"
 oink says, "by sattelite"
 oink says, "both ways,  http://www.teledesic.com/\ufffd
 BrianF says, "Did anyone see the demo of 5.1 and live dancers at AES
last year?"
 Jody says, "I wasn't there."
 skwawksoun says, "long way away"
 Vesaa says, "I wasn't even near"
 BrianF says, "5.1 24 bit audio real time to the dancers in canada while
the music was played at UCLA"
 Jody says, "wow."
 Jody says, "that's pretty amazing."
 oink says, "really, wow"
 Jody says, "some sort of dedicated line?"
 skwawksoun says, "what transmission?"
 BrianF says, "the geeks are calling Internet 2"
 BrianF says, "I don't remember exactly but something like 100X DSL"
 Jody says, "like an OC3 or something?"
 BrianF says, "not sure. I"
 BrianF says, "I'd have to go back and find the info"
 skwawksoun says, "gotta get that soundcard latency down"
 BrianF says, "yepper"
 BrianF says, "so in five years where are we going  to be with
delivering audio"
 Vesaa says, "If this all is very important why are the IT stocks goin
dow ,down,down?"
 Jody says, "cause technology is getting cheaper."
 oink says, "cause they were over-inflated by vapourware"
 BrianF says, "yes just got 256 of RAM for $38"
 BrianF says, "so anyone heard SACD"
 skwawksoun says, "whats SACD"
 BrianF says, "Super Audio CD"
 skwawksoun says, "no"
 oink says, "no, haven't, have you ?"
 Jody says, "better than DVD?"
 BrianF says, "way better"
 Jody says, "how so?"
 BrianF says, "it samples at 2.8 Mhz for one"
 oink says, "wow"
 Jody says, "what machine can do that now?"
 Jody says, "what studio can record that?"
 Vesaa says, "well,ten years ago in Finland they estimated GSM
cellphones will never be big ,cause the price won't
drop under 1000 GBP"
 Hanno joined the Session.
 BrianF says, "it's not PCM it's DSD Direct Stream Digital"
 Jody says, "Shit I'm just getting into 96/24"
 skwawksoun says, "do you get a new set of ears too"
 Jody says, "I still don't think most machines can even handle that."
 BrianF says, "It sounds like analog"
 skwawksoun says, "brian somewhere someone will gisagree about that"
 Jody says, "why would sounding analog be so good?"
 oink says, "Brian: are SACD players in the near future, or far away ?"
 BrianF says, "well I ve been doing this a long time and it's for sure
the closest by a long shot"
 skwawksoun says, "just because "
 BrianF says, "you can buy them now"
 Jody says, "nothing's record for that format yet is it?"
 BrianF says, "last year they cost $2000 but I bought one today for
$300"
 Jody says, "mastering a CD into SACD isn't going to improve an old
master."
 BrianF says, "it sure will if the old master is analog"
 Jody says, "is SACD available in surround sound?"
 BrianF says, "surround and stereo"
 Jody says, "lots of stuff recorded these days are digital though."
 BrianF says, "some of the high end classical stuff is being record
straight to DSD"
 Jody says, "by what kind of machine?"
 Hanno says, "ahhh sonys bit streaming?"
 Jody says, "not a HD recorder."
 oink says, "oh like the old direct to disk stuff"
 BrianF says, "Genex or Tascam now has a tape machine that will record
DSD"
 Hanno says, "but isnt DSD a sony thing?"
 Jody says, "that tape must move pretty fast to capture that much data."

 skwawksoun says, "sorry guys ,DSD?"
 BrianF says, "DSD is a sony/phillips deal"
 Hanno says, "direct stream digitaL"
 BrianF says, "yep"
 Hanno says, "its for the classical folk and maybe for chesky records"
 Hanno says, "and other audio purists"
 Jody says, "I think DVD will win out over SACD."
 Jody says, "it's too popular right now."
 oink says, "just like direct to disk"
 BrianF says, "no I heard Keb' Mo' today and it was amazing"
 Hanno says, "problem is : you cant edit it"
 oink says, "DVD will be the standard for the next 10-15 years I guess"
 Jody says, "I can make a surround sound mix for DVD right now and take
to mom 'n' dads to hear it."
 BrianF says, "yes you can"
 Hanno says, "you have to transform it to pcm"
 Jody says, "even grandparents have DVD setups at home now."
 BrianF says, "no the new SADiE system allows editing and Eq/compression
etc"
 Jody says, "makes it the easy medium to master too."
 Hanno says, "wow thats news"
 Jody says, "how long before logic records in DSD?"
 BrianF says, "that trouble with DVD Audio is that you can't play it in
your CD player"
 Hanno says, "hehe"
 Jody says, "how long before audio cards are made for DSD?"
 Hanno says, "looong"
 BrianF says, "how much money ya got?"
 Jody says, "can you play SACD in your CD player?"
 BrianF says, "you can play it if it is dual layer"
 BrianF says, "SACD on one layer and 16/44 on the second"
 Jody says, "I think I prefer DVD right now. People have them in their
houses and their cars."
 Jody says, "way more common."
 oink says, "so SACD doesn't have error correction etc ?"
 Vesaa says, "Digidesing has one Le DSD card available ,only that the Le
version is mono,hehe"
 Hanno says, "will the audio DVD s have this region bullshit like the
video discs?"
 Jody says, "and that costs how much?"
 BrianF says, "I agree about DVD but not about DVD audio"
 MC joined the Session.
 Vesaa says, "like 10000000000000 USD"
 Jody says, "too much for me, I'm out."
 Vesaa :-)
 Hanno says, "i just bought some DVDs in USA and some wont play on my
german powerbook"
 Jody says, "yeah the region thing is stupid."
 BrianF says, "for sure it's way expensive now but so was 24/96 not long
ago"
 Hanno says, "so will this be valid for audio too?"
 BrianF says, "anyhow if you get a chance to hear it you should"
 Hanno says, "i mean can i buy a DVD audio cd in usa and play it on my
european DVD auio player?"
 Jody says, "I'm looking to start making DVD audio discs when I get the
Dual 800."
 BrianF says, "no you can hear the difference on Mackies"
 Hanno says, "sounds good "
 Vesaa says, "Genelec is building some with DSD compability,go figure
the price'"
 Hanno says, "i just did a listening test"
 BrianF says, "it looses all the harshness of digital"
 skwawksoun says, "regions kind of get back to edesk and labels and
control by vested interests dont they"
 Hanno says, "somebody mixed in PT , in logic and then thru an SSL"
 BrianF says, "and"
 Jody says, "I can hear the difference between 16 & 24 bit files."
 Jody says, "I'm going to do a test with 96/24 shortly."
 oink says, "sure"
 Hanno says, "i need better speakers "
 Vesaa says, "I can hear the difference between 44 and 48 DAT ,that's
all I know"
 Hanno says, "i cant hear a difference I need new ears"
 Hanno says, "or new speakers"
 Jody says, "If you buy my first comment I gotta bridge to sell you."
 BrianF says, "Here is a spec from the $300 SACD player"
 Hanno says, "bridge?"
 Jody says, "But I believe there is a difference between 44.1 and 96."
 BrianF says, "Playback Frequency Range: 2Hz - 100kHz"
 BrianF says, "Playback Frequency Range: 2Hz - 100kHz"
 BrianF says, "Frequency Response: 2Hz - 50kHz(-3dB)"
 Jody says, "who the hell can hear 2Hz?"
 Hanno says, "yeah i remember when i heard 2 hz last time"
 Hanno says, "it was a sledgehammer"
 BrianF says, "my sub goes down to 8hz"
 oink says, "2hz, you can kill people"
 skwawksoun says, "jelly belly"
 Vesaa says, "Here's a nice thread,don't read it now ,it's huge:
http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/Forum3/HTML/000822-3.html"
 BrianF says, "don't shoot the messenger"
 Hanno says, "so the player outputs that freq ranger into which amp
which speaker??"
 oink says, "you would need a speaker the size of your house"
 Hanno says, "are there microfones with that range?"
 Jody says, "and an amp capable of hoggin lots of electricity."
 Hanno says, "how do you pick up such a spectrum?"
 oink says, "maybe transducers"
 Vesaa says, "digital difference compared,hanno .it's easy optically"
 Hanno says, "imagine the teccno guys investing their dollars into that
technology"
 oink says, "seismographs"
 MixMasterMark has left the Session
 BrianF says, "I know of some new sennheisers that go way out there and
also the earthworks that go from 9hz to
30K"
 skwawksoun says, "you know this guy raved to me once about the
dinosaurs footsteps in jurasic park the movie was still crap tho"
 oink says, "hehe, they would"
 oink says, "for that 'killer' bass"
 Hanno says, "and the damaga done to the buildings"
 Jody says, "I think 2Hz is the T-rex stepping on a stradavarius."
 Hanno says, "lol"
 skwawksoun says, "hehe"
 oink says, "Hz 2 much"
 BrianF says, "hehe"
 Hanno says, "LOL"
 BrianF says, "anyhow so what was the subject?"
 Vesaa says, "If you take two optical fibres and measure the difference
,it can go down to 0 hz"
 oink says, "standalone audio and FX editors"
 skwawksoun says, "standalone apps ,i dont know anything bout them
either"
 Jody says, "I pretty much do it all in the computer nowadays."
 oink says, "but thats been replaced by more interesting stuff :)"
 oink says, "I meant apps like wavelab and peak and sparx, hyperprism,
T-racks etc"
 Hanno says, "stuff like sound designer? peak ? "
 oink says, "yeh"
 Hanno says, "ohh still handy for me"
 oink says, "hanno, what is the curent SD like"
 Jody says, "I've stopped using peak."
 oink says, "I haven't used for years"
 Jody says, "I recently check out T-racks, that's kinda cool."
 Hanno says, "me neither i think its dead"
 Jody says, "But I'm not really familiar with it yet."
 Hanno says, "if only didgi would give us interleaved stereo in DAE"
 oink says, "like  i said i still like hyperprism  standalone for
sound-design"
 BrianF says, "digi "give" something?"
 skwawksoun says, "could we talk about mic emulators??"
 oink says, "sure"
 Hanno says, "arboretum yes"
 Vesaa says, "I ain't never heard or seen one"
 Hanno says, "nice stuff "
 skwawksoun says, "well if they  work i need one"
 BrianF says, "yes it is"
 BrianF says, "they work"
 MC has left the Session
 oink says, "whats the best source to use ?"
 Jody says, "Isn't there one by Antares that's supposed to work really
well?"
 oink says, "is an SM58 sufficient ?"
 oink says, "mic-modeller"
 BrianF says, "sure"
 Jody says, "I just got a Vipre from GT, those make one mic sound pretty
different from setting to setting."
 oink says, "is the only one I know"
 skwawksoun says, "i'd love a neumann but realistically an all that"
 oink says, "try Rode"
 Jody says, "I want a ribbon mic."
 Jody says, "Those rock!"
 BrianF says, "I've heard good things about the new NKT"
 skwawksoun says, "they've had reasonable reviews in elec. muso"
 skwawksoun says, "the rodes"
 skwawksoun says, "back to mic emulates when i think of the trouble we
used to have getting a loud git sound
recorded and now theres pod"
 BrianF says, "I gotta go too. Have a good day/good night!"
 Hanno says, "first thing i noticed = l a t e n c y"
 BrianF says, "see you soon"
 BrianF has left the Session
 skwawksoun says, "you sure thats not just modelled in for the room?"
 oink says, "parting words, in the POD manual they explain that"
 Hanno says, "101% sure"
 skwawksoun says, "the pilots handbook"
 oink says, "bye"











***********************************************************************
 Disclaimer: I have edited this chat substantially, but done my utmost
to maintain the sense of what was said. This is to be regarded as only a

precis of the actual chat, and any unforseen or contentious inference
that can be drawn form one line to the next, is purely unintentional on
my part, and cannot be attributed to the persons who posted the chat.

***********************************************************************

Dave Eager [oink]