The Logic Off Topic list

This past Wednesday in Audio Round-Table we discussed 'editing and
slicing audio files' Including using ReCycle slices and strip-silence
and also repairing audio in Logic's Sample Edit window.

The session was attended by mojen, dagroov, Bop, skwawksoun and oink

The following is a substantially edited summary of the forum chat:


 dagroov says, "so, we just started?? :)"
 mojen says, "yup"
 oink says, "I wanted to swap tips on slicing audio etc"
 dagroov says, "brb"
 oink says, "with Logic, recycle, PT etc"
 mojen says, "i'm quite fond of strip silence in logic"
 oink says, "me too"
 oink says, "it has improved no end with faster processors"
 dagroov says, "me too but I recently accquired recycle and I dig it a
lot too"
 oink says, "and i think the inbuilt cross-fading in logic has improved"

 mojen says, "recycle is stereo now, right?  i had it years ago when it
first came out but i stopped using it"
 oink says, "not the cross-fades you set, but what logic does with
overlapping regions"
 oink says, "yeh it's in stereo now"
 dagroov says, "I am a big fan of using logic's cut on song position and
cut between locators key commands instead of
manually using scissor tools"
 oink says, "which is a big improvement"
 oink says, "me too"
 mojen says, "same here"
 oink says, "I like splitting a region into 16th measures and
rearranging"
 dagroov says, "what's with automatically overlap crossfades? I only
know the ones you manually set"
 dagroov says, "and the old one, destructive I think"
 oink says, "well, i noticed a few versions ago, that the clicks on
overlapping regions which were not 'zero-crossed' seemed
much less pronounced , or non-existant"
 dagroov says, "I noticed this too"
 dagroov says, "so, it does something?"
 oink says, "so i figured that logic is doing some kind of cross-fade"
 dagroov says, "!"
 mojen says, "i just noticed it recently myself.  i chopped up a vocal
randomly just for an effect and it's very smooth"
 oink says, "or fade in-out with single  regions"
 dagroov says, "you think so???"
 dagroov says, "no prefs?"
 oink says, "yeh, hardly getting clicks at all except in really extreme
cases"
 mojen says, "seems like the "search zero crossings" is automatic or
something"
 oink says, "well I have zero crossings off in the arrange window"
 dagroov says, "usually bass and acoustic guitar give me clicks"
 dagroov says, "oh, I always use zero-crossing"
 oink says, "so i know I'm cutting exactly to the bar"
 oink says, "for slicing drums etc"
 dagroov says, "I don't know if zero-crossing is on in arrange, but its
is in sample edit window!"
 oink says, "i like to choose which zero crossing I go to"
 oink says, "I keep it on in sample edit, usually"
 oink says, "just turn it off when needed"
 dagroov says, "do you guys zoom more with key commands, or with control
key?"
 mojen says, "key commands  - i use powerkeys"
 oink says, "control key here"
 dagroov says, "but keycommand for in and out or for memorizing zoom
levels?"
 oink says, "though I still reach for zoom boxes"
 dagroov says, "I am addicted on ctrl-arrows for zooming in small,
continuous steps (instead of the boxes)"
 mojen says, "me too"
 dagroov says, "get lost with ctrl-key's "memories""
 mojen says, "but aren't the audio file drawings in the arrange window
off?"
 oink says, "they are in the arrange"
 oink says, "never trust the overview"
 mojen says, "the overview is evil"
 dagroov says, "what do you mean now??"
 dagroov says, ""oink"
 oink says, "well the audio that shows in arrange"
 oink says, "is just the overview"
 oink says, "like you see in the audio window"
 oink says, "not like Protools"
 dagroov says, "so whats the alternative??"
 mojen says, "pro tools"
 oink says, "the wave form"
 oink says, "which has a direct representation"
 oink says, "like Logic has in the main Sample Edit window"
 oink says, "so logic calculates a graphical representation of the
waveforem"
 dagroov says, "ok, so to clear it up, you are saying, oink, that
logic's arrange/audio window's overviews aren't precise,
whether sample edit's is ? right?"
 oink says, "which is no way sample accurate"
 mojen says, "right"
 oink says, "for the overview, which we see in top of Sample edit,
arrange window, and audio window"
 oink says, "you always have to refer back to sample edit for accuracy"
 dagroov says, "ok, so to edit end points on sample edit is easy, but
what about start points? have to move start indicator
pressing control so as not to affect the anchor!"
 mojen says, "that's one complaint of pro tools users about logic"
 oink says, "its valid too"
 mojen says, "i wish they would fix it, but no plans"
 oink says, "i'd love to see logic with audio like PT edit window"
 oink says, "dunno"
 mojen says, "logic would be the pro tools killer"
 oink says, "looks like it"
 oink says, "yeh"
 oink says, "it would"
 dagroov says, "I never heard something that protools does that logic
doesn't - maybe this is the first one!"
 mojen says, "dagroov: to answer your earlier question, option click on
the bottom of the waveform in sample edit and you
can drag the region wherever you want."
 oink says, "yeh i use that all the time"
 dagroov says, "yup, but it is weird, and not too precise"
 mojen says, "not precise?  just zoom in.  sample edit is the only
precise window."
 oink says, "turn zero crossings off first"
 dagroov says, "I use it too"
 oink says, "to maintain the selection size"
 dagroov says, "its a drag having to press option"
 dagroov says, "if you let it go, you lose the whole thing"
 oink says, "I like Logic's zoom levels better than PT"
 dagroov says, "and undo usually in sample edits can be useless!"
 oink says, "PT doesn't go far enough"
 mojen says, "dagroov: logic is not very undo friendly"
 oink says, "you have trouble with undo's in sample edit ?"
 oink says, "I use undo all the time"
 dagroov says, "but does it WORK all the time"
 oink says, "especially when processing"
 oink says, "it does for me"
 mojen says, "one undo, yes.  but not like peak where you can go back to
where you started"
 oink says, "oh I know what you mean"
 dagroov says, "I get stuff that don't say it undoable and stuff that
don't say  undo at all"
 oink says, "when you cut samples"
 oink says, "and undo"
 dagroov says, "undo with sample edit if you save a backup copy is easy
:)"
 oink says, "yes that can be tricky"
 oink says, "but with processing [like with time/pitch, or waves plugs,
I never have it fail"
 oink says, "cause i will apply a process, save selection as new file,
and undo"
 dagroov says, "btw, I love peak's batch stuff, like normalizing - wish
logic would adopt it!"
 dagroov says, "me too"
 mojen says, "peak is the swiss army knife of audio editing."
 oink says, "yes, I'd love that too"
 dagroov says, "I love envelope for vst :)"
 oink says, "batch processing in the audio window would be awsome"
 oink says, "and batch renaming too"
 dagroov says, "it seems logic 5 will have great hyperdraw right? like
easier to move levels, lines, curves, etc?"
 dagroov says, "I use a freeware called renamer for batch renaming
FILES, but nothing for regions, except logic's own
smart sequential numbering"
 oink says, "I meant for files"
 dagroov says, "so, nice lil' renamer app, free, I can change prefixes
and sufixes!"
 oink says, "do you guys use the pencil tool in sample edit much ?"
 dagroov says, "never used pencil!"
 oink says, "but that's not much help in a logic song"
 dagroov says, "for pops' and stuff?"
 mojen says, "i've used pencil in extreme circumstances (like pops on
the perfect take) "
 dagroov says, "works?"
 oink says, "well pencil sucked when it was first introduced"
 mojen says, "yes, but backup, backup, backup."
 oink says, "but it's really cooking now"
 dagroov says, "how do you use it? you just draw following the curve of
what's around?"
 mojen says, "pretty much...  if you zoom in far enough you can get rid
of the offending sample(s) quite nicely"
 oink says, "you used to get into all sorts of trouble with samples
suddenly going to clipping"
 oink says, "but not now"
 dagroov says, "will it work with wind pops and plosives (P's and B's)?"

 oink says, "and always make sure you are in 'sample-hold' view"
 mojen says, "yes"
 dagroov says, "you mean max zoom right?"
 oink says, "cause at fine zoom, the interpolated view is wrong, by it's
very nature"
 oink says, "yeh"
 dagroov says, "what's sample-hold? is it the same as maximum zoom? or
not?"
 oink says, "no its an option in the view menu"
 dagroov says, "never seen it!"
 dagroov says, "stopped reading manuals some versions ago :("
 mojen says, "sample edit menu: view: show as sample and hold"
 oink says, "show as sample&hold"
 mojen says, "jinx!"
 dagroov says, "gotta try it"
 dagroov says, "at any zoom level???"
 oink says, "the normal view interpolates between the sample values"
 oink says, "no only at a really high zoom"
 dagroov says, "you mean, if sample&hold is OFF, at a high zoom, its
still being interpolated?"
 oink says, "the intrpolated view is fine for seeing what the waveform
is like, but sample and hold shows the real sample values"
 dagroov says, "so why not using it all the time???"
 dagroov says, "i mean s&h"
 oink says, "you can be a sample off a zero crossing, for instance, in
the interpolated view"
 mojen says, "it's quite a bit of work to calculate the correct display.
that's why logic can't do it in the arrange in realtime"
 oink says, "well, the interpolated view gives you a better idea of
where glitches might be"
 dagroov says, "oh"
 oink says, "you can see it in the waveform"
 dagroov says, "gotta try it!!"
 oink says, "hard to assess in sample and hold"
 oink says, "but once you start using the pencil...."
 mojen says, "...all hell breaks loose"
 mojen says, ";-)"
 oink says, "you need to know exactly where to draw"
 dagroov says, "gotta try it... definately :)"
 oink says, "dagroov, do you know how to draw in either one or both
channels ?"
 dagroov says, "nope, probably some modifier key, eh?"
 oink says, "option key"
 oink says, "hold option and what you draw goes to both channels"
 dagroov says, "usually, for pops and stuff, if crossfades don't work,
I'll use the silencer!!!"
 dagroov says, "and usually get crazy trying to make it work!!! :("
 dagroov says to you, "cool"
 oink says, "for real nasties, I'm a big fan of removing a wave cycle"
 mojen says, "same here"
 dagroov says, "I once saw an editing session done on sonic solutions -
still think its the most elegant implementation, you
simply position beginning and ending marks (brackets), no dragging
anything..."
 oink says, "as long as I paste it in a silent part not to far after"
 oink says, "then silence"
 dagroov says, "removing a wave cycle - wont it shorten the wave???"
 oink says, "I cut"
 dagroov doesn't get it
 oink says, "and paste the offending bit at the next silence"
 oink says, "then silence the bit i pasted"
 oink says, "then everything after is still in sync"
 dagroov says, "oh got it ! good idea!!"
 dagroov says, "just one cycle? any cycle?"
 oink says, "or try and match the cycle and replace the bad bit"
 oink says, "I'm talking about the cycle with the bad glitch in it"
 oink says, "the one that can't be drawn out"
 oink says, "usually some high-frequency scratch"
 oink says, "or pop"
 dagroov says, "wow!!!"
 mojen says, "ain't logic grand?"
 mojen says, ";-)"
 dagroov says, "love it!"
 oink says, "you know, the ones that look like little squarewaves
imposed on top of the main waveform"
 mojen says, "or those horrendous spiky guys"
 dagroov says, "I once demonstrated to someone audio editing, during
clinton's scandal, by recording "I did NOT have sex
with Monica" and removing the NOT :)"
 oink says, "i like picking up syllables from one word and pasting on
another in logic"
 dagroov says, "did it a couple of times already"
 dagroov says, "clients get crazy!!!"
 oink says, "if a sibillant is not quite right, replace it with another"

 dagroov says, "once I turned a D into a T, by cutting off its
beggining"
 oink says, "I do that too"
 mojen says, "it works well for k's or t's at the end of a word"
 oink says, "its amazing what tricks you learn when youre a crap singer"

 mojen says, "ha!"
 dagroov says, "hahaha - dagroov the autotune meister :)"
 oink says, "hhe"
 oink says, "not refering to anyone but me"
 oink says, "I hear some records where the cut and paste politicians
words together"
 oink says, "and mostly they are really rough"
 oink says, "I know it can be done seamlessly if you want"
 mojen says, "oberheim has a scaled down version of autotune for $49
based on the antares engine.  but it's pc only"
 dagroov says, "I heard it, with stutttttering fx ight?"
 dagroov says, "i mean right?"
 oink says, "well making up sentences they never said"
 dagroov says, "btw, there are some records with stuttering "transform"
cuts that I try to replicate by editing, but it aint the
same"
 dagroov says, "such as Peter Gabriel's OVO - super editing there"
 oink says, "that would more likely be done with a sampler"
 mojen says, "trigger it"
 dagroov says, "but it cuts in the middle of the sample, its not just
being retriggered and its not lfo either"
 dagroov says, "not saying H H H Hello, but saying H l o, sort of"
 oink says, "depends on material"
 dagroov says, "DJ's do it at DJ mixers' mute button (instant, not
toggle type)"
 oink says, "i have done it with slicing regions in Logic"
 mojen says, "this was discussed on the lug recently.  someone explained
how to do it with a sampler, where you vary the
start point using the feature of the sampler"
 dagroov says, "but logic's mute is toggle type"
 oink says, "sampler is definitely the way though"
 dagroov says, "slicing works, but hard for complex rhythms"
 dagroov says, "would be great to autoslice based on a midi guide track"

 oink says, "yeh, some samplers can control the loop point with mod
wheel"
 dagroov says, "there's a cubase vst plug that does it, but doesnt work
in logic"
 dagroov says, "...gotta search the lug"
 dagroov says, "so what one does is trigger sample, pause, trigger
sample with changed start poing, pause, repeat, rinse?"
 mojen says, "dagroove, i think that's the gist of it"
 dagroov says, "gotta try it :)))))"
 dagroov gotta try so _many_ things!!!
 mojen says, "in the exs, couldn't you assign a different sample start
point over a range of keys?"
 dagroov says, "think so"
 mojen says, "well, there you go... "
 mojen says, "then you'd have complete MIDI control"
 oink says, "have you guys worked much with applying groove templates to
strip-silenced segments ?"
 mojen says, "no"
 oink says, "its really cool"
 oink says, "i've been doing that a bit lately"
 dagroov says, "say what?"
 mojen says, "break it down, oink"
 dagroov says, "oh, I know, from the event list, right?"
 oink says, "like autotune for the rythm, hehe"
 dagroov says, "not bad!"
 oink says, "well if you strip-silence"
 oink says, "selct all the segments you want to quantise"
 oink says, "you can apply Q in the event list window"
 mojen says, "gotcha...  "
 oink says, "good for ,lets say quantising a chorus, or spoken track to
a drum groove"
 oink says, "makes something sit much tighter"
 oink says, "you can groove audio in sample edit, but not with groove
templates"
 oink says, "and the sample edit way is destructive editing"
 skwawksoun says, "hate to be a bore but could you clarify strip
sinlence for me oink . i know i cant do it in sil but i want a handle on
it"
 oink says, "well, in Gold and Plat"
 oink says, "logic will split up an audio file"
 oink says, "at the silence points"
 oink says, "like drum hits"
 mojen says, "you can define what level constitutes silence"
 oink says, "but you can tweek it to split at any gain level in the file
if you want"
 skwawksoun says, "gotcha"
 dagroov says, "like a non-realtime gate"
 skwawksoun says, "soyou can define all the start points"
 dagroov says, "btw, how do we compare split silence vs simply gating?"
 mojen says, "split silence gives you individual regions that you can
move around to your heart's content"
 oink says, "and play merry hell with"
 oink says, "hehe"
 mojen says, "ha!"
 skwawksoun says, "long time ago i used to make hi hats groove ,straight
sixteens whatever on a drum machine by making
the bass drum drive a compressor on the hats"
 dagroov says, "cool"
 mojen says, "sidechain, right?"
 skwawksoun says, "it was lo tech but interesting "
 skwawksoun says, "not really side chain all the same signal but the
kick made the comp work"
 mojen says, "gotcha"
 oink says, "thans guys , i think we all learned from each other today"
 oink says, "which is the best :)"









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 Disclaimer: I have edited this chat substantially, but done my utmost
to maintain the sense of what was said. This is to be regarded as only a

precis of the actual chat, and any unforseen or contentious inference
that can be drawn form one line to the next, is purely unintentional on
my part, and cannot be attributed to the persons who posted the chat.

***********************************************************************

Dave Eager [oink]