The Logic Off Topic list

PS - all of which to say is that it's not a "ridiculous claim" that many
dislike the leader of Saudi Arabia.  It may even be an incorrect claim, when
all's said and done and you read through the many links and ideas, but it is
not "ridiculous".

That, in the end, is all I was trying to get across.  Just trying to keep
facts straight.  You can certainly ignore a number of my conclusions and
side comments below.

----- Original Message -----
From: "Wilson Zorn" <wilson.zorn@...>
To: <logic-ot@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Sunday, September 23, 2001 10:29 PM
Subject: Re: [L-OT] Re: OT Goodbye


> I do not state that Saudi Arabia faces imminent revolt.  Far from it.
>
> Some of these links don't seem terribly independent, particularly
> ain-al-yaqeem - take a look through their stories.  NDU's a pretty good
> resource though and despite what some think is fairly independent.
>
> The NDU article along with the article at
> http://www.fas.org/asmp/profiles/saudi_arabia.htm both highlight how the
> public welfare rises and falls with oil and its fortunes.  The problem is
> not so much that people are turned into the streets but that as the social
> state declines you generally increase unrest; it's all about relative
> deprivation.  The standard of living in France in 1798 was pretty good
> all-in-all, but it was a hell of a lot worse than it had been a generation
> prior.  The French of that day still lived very much in the first world,
so
> to speak, as well.
>
> You do have an underlying problem very similar to the Shah's Iran.  Saudi
> Arabia is a brutal totalitarian state by all accounts and like many of
those
> the level of dissent is usually there but masked.  You might recall that
> popular opinion (not academic opinion) considered the Shah's Iran quite
> stable.
>
> The most thorough article I could find that was reasonably objective was
at
> http://www.biu.ac.il/SOC/besa/meria/journal/1999/issue4/jv3n4a4.html .This
> is a LOT of reading if you're not too interested but if interested it
seems
> to sum up the various issues pretty well.
>
> Is it stable/durable?  Perhaps, perhaps not.  There is no factual way to
> know.
>
> But I think factually there simply are a lot of issues and there are a
> "large" number that oppose the government in a fundamental way.
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "marc lindahl" <marc@...>
> To: <logic-ot@yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Sunday, September 23, 2001 9:21 PM
> Subject: Re: [L-OT] Re: OT Goodbye
>
>
> >
> >
> > > From: "Wilson Zorn" <wilson.zorn@...>
> > >
> > > The article indicates, "In the current Arab climate of hostility to
> Israel
> > > and its US backers, many Saudis resent their government's friendship
> with
> > > the West. "  "Many" I take to be "large", though whether it's a
majority
> or
> > > simply significant, it's unclear.
> >
> > Yes it is, and a prime example of how media can subtly 'slant' a story.
> >
> > >  However, the article also states, "Their
> > > immediate problem is unemployment. Unofficially it is running at more
> than
> > > 25%. " and "For the last few years per capita income has been falling
> and
> > > many poor Saudis are getting poorer. "  It is almost unheard of in any
> > > nation for these conditions not to result in a large portion of the
> > > population not disliking the leadership.
> >
> > Under what you or I might take as accompanying circumstances.  But this
> > thought occurred to me -- does unemployment equal poverty in Saudi
Arabia?
> > I don't know, but it's a very rich place, and they might have a gold
> > embroidered safety net.
> > (http://www.ain-al-yaqeen.com/issues/19971124/feat8en.htm)
> > I'm reminded of visiting Norway years ago, and seeing these clean, well
> > dressed youth hanging out on park benches.  My friend said "those are
the
> > heroin addicts."  In NYC, put it this way, junkies wish they had it so
> good!
> >
> > Indications are that Saudis live very much in the so-called first world:
> > http://www.ifc.org/camena/saudi.htm
> > http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0107947.html
> >
> > I have yet to dig up anything that supports the claim of 25%
unemployment,
> > but it's undeniable that, like most countries, Saudi Arabia is complex
and
> > changing:
> > http://www.ndu.edu/inss/strforum/forum125.html
> >
> > None of which support eminent revolt...
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> >
> >
>
>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>