The Logic Off Topic list

Sorry, I sent off the other mail too soon.... :( I hit the wrong button 
while replying.

>>1. is not the case as I know, so it means that the second case is at hand.
> 
> Actually I think it is the case. I was surprised to see that the US workers
> are more productive than Japanese workers - by whatever statistical method
> such things are computed.

I believe the German people are the most productive. They're also the 
most expensive workers afair.

  >  1.  The issue in this conflict is clearly not energy consumption.


I agree.

  >
  > 2.  If you believe that the issue is distribution of wealth then you
  > must remember that the wealth of the Arab world comes from US,
  > Europe, and Japanese energy consumption...but I am very doubtful that
  > reducing the amount
  > of money entering the economies of those countries would be of any
  > particular benefit to their populations.

Agreed.

  >   It would be nice see those
  > countries investing in technologies that may be of economic use to
  > them in a future where they have less oil to sell.  Maybe that is
  > happening but I have not seen any examples.

In Dubai, the biggest production plant for th next "fuel" is being
prepared. I can't think of the English name (or the chemical code), but
I mean the clean 'fuel' which is extracted from water and which is said
to be the energy source for the future. Reason why it's built there:
first of all because Dubai is a place with a lot of sun (which,
apparently they need for extracting it) and second because those
oil-sheiks (sorry for the spelling) are investing an awful lot of money
in it (together with Shell and other oil companies) to make sue they can
still make money once the new energy source is the most important one.


  > 3.  There are historical as well as geographical reasons why the US
  > energy consumption is relatively high.  The US infrastructure was not
  > built in a day. It has been developing over about a 100 year period
  > during which energy was relatively cheap.  I have always thought that
  > American automobile manufacturers could put more effort into
  > increasing fuel economy of their cars.  In the past few years they
  > have been doing better.  But the reasons for them doing so have very
  > little to do with inherent morality just as the reasons why things
  > are different in Europe have nothing to do with inherent morality
  > which brings me to:

As you say correctly in the next paragraph, the reason is because fuel 
is much cheaper in the US. If it were cheaper in Europe, we'd be wasting 
as much as the US.

  > Now it
  > has become extremely convenient OTOH for Europeans to claim a
  > position of moral superiority

I don't think this was the intention. It wasn't mine anyway.

Oh, and by the way, Belgium has most lights in the world (per m²). to 
give you an idea: all our roads have lights most of the time. Luckily, 
in the last two years, we're finally switching off the lights on the 
highways between 00.30h and 05.00h. Imo they should just remove all 
those lights.

  > since there are still a lot of people
  > working and commuting after those hours IMHO a vast amount of energy
  > could be saved just but running the trains and subways 24/7.

The same over here: I was surprised to see that when I was in Berlin, 
there was public transport 24/7. Where I live, I can't take a bus 
between 22.00h and 06.00. Very stuuuupid.

  > 6.  The technology exists now to decrease energy consumption and do
  > it in a way the will not have an un acceptable impact on peoples life
  > styles.  I am all for that.  Promotion of these technologies should
  > be a priority of western governments.

Also, governments should use their environment taxes for the things they 
were meant for. Right now in Belgium, those taxes are often used to fill 
up the gap in government spending.

 > Also, now we all have to agree with the US (at least allmost all the
 > european governments do), but what about let's say Kyoto? "Oh, sorry, 
we are
 > the US, our economical wealth is more important than some stupid 
environment
 > protection".

We're slowly killing ourselves imo.

 > What about the Taliban? They have existed before, they have been as bad
 > before. Did anybody EVER care about that? The answer simply is no.

Agreed.

 > Also, as long as it was good for their position, the US government has
 > supported radical fundamentalists in Afghanistan (the Mudjahiddin 
fighting
 > the former USSR). Now, all of a sudden they are bad, huh?

World politics are a dirty game. One of our previous Belgian kings has 
killed more than 10 mio Congolese people (many years ago when Congo was 
our colony). Only few Belgians know that. We now send some "aid" there 
because we want to make ourselves feel better.

 > Don't tell me you care about peace in the world, ALL the western 
countries
 > (usually) only care about things when their OWN interests/people are
 > attacked. I can't stand those pseudo "we are the saviour of peace in the
 > world" approaches any longer.

I fully agree with this and also share this feeling. :-(


PS: reason why I mentioned Belgium so often is because I don't want to 
make it look like I have anything against the US. I don't have anything 
against the US, but still want to reply to some things in the "safest" 
possible way without being flamed. ;-))

Bye,
Joeri



-- 
Joeri Vankeirsbilck
joeri@...

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