Yahoo Groups archive

The Logic Off Topic list

Index last updated: 2026-04-28 23:27 UTC

Thread

OT^2 - Thanks

OT^2 - Thanks

2001-10-08 by GAmoore@aol.com

Well bombs are falling in Afganistan. As an American, I just want to 
thank the British members on this list for their country's unfailing 
support, and also the planned support of the French, Australians, 
Germans, and Canadians.

Bin Laden, in referring to the various acts of terror that have killed 
many Americans and others in the past, frequently makes reference to that 
being the will of God. Well whatever happens now, will also be the will 
of God. There is really no choice then to clean out that realm of evil 
that strikes throughout the world at the innocent, and defames and 
perverts the teaching of Islam as a justification for killing.

Hopefully a free and prosperous Afganistan will emerge in future years. 
Together, America and Europe, .... along with the richer Arab countries 
must work to make tolerable living conditions for the many poor Muslims 
who misdirect the anger of their miserable lives toward the great powers. 
When their is freedom, safety, peace, and prosperity for all, then the 
entire world will benefit.




Note : OT is simply OT from Logic but still within the realm of music and 
computers (mics, recording tips, computer software)
OT*OT = OT^2 = topics off topic from music

Re: [L-OT] OT^2 - Thanks

2001-10-08 by Spectro

>Well bombs are falling in Afganistan. As an American, I just want to
>thank the British members on this list for their country's unfailing
>support, and also the planned support of the French, Australians,
>Germans, and Canadians.

That is assuming that the British members of this list wholly support
the actions of their Government.

>Bin Laden, in referring to the various acts of terror that have killed
>many Americans and others in the past, frequently makes reference to that
>being the will of God. Well whatever happens now, will also be the will
>of God.

God is such a convenient 'thing' to call on... If it is the will of God that
he decrees both actions, then we are all better off without this 'God'
as he(?) is then playing us all for fools...

Any group who claims  'it is the will of (their) God'  that anything
happens that they have some control over, does so in order to avoid its
own responsibility and presumes to know such a Gods intent on behalf
of others. The sooner we get past 'God'(s) and the presumptions of
those he 'speaks through' the sooner we learn not to deflect responsibilty
for our own deeds... (and GA please note, this is directed at *all* parties)

>There is really no choice then to clean out that realm of evil
>that strikes throughout the world at the innocent, and defames and
>perverts the teaching of Islam as a justification for killing.

Rhetoric.

>Hopefully a free and prosperous Afganistan will emerge in future years.

Hopefully, but how likely, given the current state of play?

>Together, America and Europe, .... along with the richer Arab countries
>must work to make tolerable living conditions for the many poor Muslims
>who misdirect the anger of their miserable lives toward the great powers.

'Deflect' may be as apt as misdirect.

>When their is freedom, safety, peace, and prosperity for all, then the
>entire world will benefit.

When *there* is 'freedom, safety, peace, and prosperity for all', the world's
dwindling wealth will be far more equitably distributed. That means all us
Westerners will need to come down quite  a few notches. Otherwise, forget it.
This, as I tried vainly to explain in earlier related posts, is the root of
the
whole problem.

S.

Re: [L-OT] OT^2 - Thanks

2001-10-08 by Dennis Gunn

At 4:47 PM +1000 10/8/01, Spectro wrote:
>When *there* is 'freedom, safety, peace, and prosperity for all', the world's
>dwindling wealth will be far more equitably distributed. That means all us
>Westerners will need to come down quite  a few notches. Otherwise, forget it.
>This, as I tried vainly to explain in earlier related posts, is the root of
>the whole problem.

What a stubbornly negative view.  Why does anyone  have to "come 
down"?   Would it not be better to hope those who want to could come 
up?   Flagellate yourself all you want but don't expect me to join 
you.
-- 


                                 Dennis Gunn
                                 Mightyjohn@...

                  check out  MIGHTY JOHN HENRY's album "hot air head"
                                                    info at
                        http://www.twics.com/~mightyjo/home.html

Re: [L-OT] OT^2 - Thanks

2001-10-08 by Spectro

>At 4:47 PM +1000 10/8/01, Spectro wrote:
>>When *there* is 'freedom, safety, peace, and prosperity for all', the world's
>>dwindling wealth will be far more equitably distributed. That means all us
>>Westerners will need to come down quite  a few notches. Otherwise, forget it.
>>This, as I tried vainly to explain in earlier related posts, is the root of
>>the whole problem.
>
>What a stubbornly negative view.  Why does anyone  have to "come
>down"?   Would it not be better to hope those who want to could come
>up?   Flagellate yourself all you want but don't expect me to join
>you.

Call it what you like, in the end it is a matter of relativity...  If
you have wealthy people, you will, by necessity, have impoverished
people and those who 'come up' do so at the expense of others.  Look
around you...

Re: [L-OT] OT^2 - Thanks

2001-10-08 by GAmoore@aol.com

>>There is really no choice then to clean out that realm of evil
>>that strikes throughout the world at the innocent, and defames and
>>perverts the teaching of Islam as a justification for killing.
>
>Rhetoric.

Especially after Bin Laden's taped speech yesterday, its pretty much a fact 
that Afganistan is the base of operations of a terror network which has 
caused the death of innocents in an increasing cascade. Bin Laden even mocked 
the deaths of a 'few' Americans like it was no big deal. Its just like having 
a house with crack addicts down the street from which muggings and 
burglarlies are performed. At some point you have go in and do the job once 
and for all.

Re: [L-OT] OT^2 - Thanks

2001-10-08 by Vincent Kenis

>What a stubbornly negative view.  Why does anyone  have to "come
>down"?

Obviously because the planet's resources are not sufficient to allow 
all humanity to live like Americans. I thought everybody knew that ...

Re: [L-OT] OT^2 - Thanks

2001-10-08 by GAmoore@aol.com

>>What a stubbornly negative view.  Why does anyone  have to "come
>>down"?
>
>Obviously because the planet's resources are not sufficient to allow 
>all humanity to live like Americans. I thought everybody knew that ...

What is fundamentally different about the way Americans live compared to 
Europeans or Japanese? I really want to know this. When I was in Japan in the 
very hot and humid summer, you could walk by store after store with the 
entire front of the store open to the street ... with the Air conditioner 
running full blast cooling all of nature, and then there are American trees 
cut down, sent to Japan, and turned into throw away chopsticks. Given the 
chance, any other country would consume just as much as the US.

On the other hand, the Arab/Islam world is largely poor except for certain 
people in certain oil countries. And yet they don't make much effort to start 
businesses or farms, or create seed money that will lead to economic 
prosperity.

Re: [L-OT] OT^2 - Thanks

2001-10-08 by GAmoore@aol.com

In a message dated 10/8/01 7:02:44 AM, spectro@... writes:

>Call it what you like, in the end it is a matter of relativity...  If
>you have wealthy people, you will, by necessity, have impoverished
>people and those who 'come up' do so at the expense of others.  Look
>around you...

Not necessarily. Thats the theory of free trade. Look at China and India - 
both dirt poor, but coming up fast - because they plenty of cheap labor.  You 
could hire a PHd in India with what you pay a Janitor in the US.

Re: [L-OT] OT^2 - Thanks

2001-10-08 by Spectro

GAmoore@... wrote:

>In a message dated 10/8/01 7:02:44 AM, spectro@... writes:
>
>>Call it what you like, in the end it is a matter of relativity...  If
>>you have wealthy people, you will, by necessity, have impoverished
>>people and those who 'come up' do so at the expense of others.  Look
>>around you...
>
>Not necessarily. Thats the theory of free trade. Look at China and India -
>both dirt poor, but coming up fast - because they plenty of cheap labor.  You
>could hire a PHd in India with what you pay a Janitor in the US.

As far as I can tell, these examples help prove my point.

S.

Re: [L-OT] OT^2 - Thanks

2001-10-08 by Spectro

GAmoore@... wrote:

>>>What a stubbornly negative view.  Why does anyone  have to "come
>>>down"?
>>
>>Obviously because the planet's resources are not sufficient to allow
>>all humanity to live like Americans. I thought everybody knew that ...
>
>What is fundamentally different about the way Americans live compared to
>Europeans or Japanese? I really want to know this.

OK.
The US  covers nearly twice as much territory as Japan and Western Europe
combined. Americans are more spread out and travel more. This takes more
cars, trucks, trains,  planes, fuel, roads,  supply, infrastructure, air
conditioners and drive-thru convenience restaurants per unit population.

In any case, my initial reference was to 'Westerners' slipping a few notches,
and Europe (and in this case, Japan) fits in quite nicely.

>When I was in Japan in the
>very hot and humid summer, you could walk by store after store with the
>entire front of the store open to the street ... with the Air conditioner
>running full blast cooling all of nature, and then there are American trees
>cut down, sent to Japan, and turned into throw away chopsticks..

Examples of the free market and globalisation at work...

>Given the
>chance, any other country would consume just as much as the US

So lets see who on the planet can consume the most then, the free
market will be happy to see us try.

>On the other hand, the Arab/Islam world is largely poor except for certain
>people in certain oil countries. And yet they don't make much effort to start
>businesses or farms, or create seed money that will lead to economic
>prosperity.

Hmmm...Maybe that's a good thing. After all, Bin Laden is a direct
benefactor of
of an Arab business enterprise.

OK. I'm clearly being sarcastic now...I must sleep
(after another round of self flaggelation of course ;)

S.

Re: [L-OT] OT^2 - Thanks

2001-10-08 by GAmoore@aol.com

In a message dated 10/8/01 9:37:16 AM, spectro@... writes:

>>>>What a stubbornly negative view.  Why does anyone  have to "come
>>>>down"?
>>>
>>>Obviously because the planet's resources are not sufficient to allow
>>>all humanity to live like Americans. I thought everybody knew that ...
>>
>>What is fundamentally different about the way Americans live compared
>toEuropeans or Japanese? I really want to know this.
>
>The US  covers nearly twice as much territory as Japan and Western Europe

FALSE. Europe is about the same size as the US.

>combined. Americans are more spread out and travel more. This takes more
>cars, trucks, trains,  planes, fuel, roads,  supply, infrastructure, air
>conditioners and drive-thru convenience restaurants per unit population.

Well the same applies to Australia - even less densely populated. Shall we 
fly some planes into the Sydney Opera House to voice our disapproval of their 
lack of high density.

Re: [L-OT] OT^2 - Thanks

2001-10-08 by maakbow@hotmail.com

>The sooner we get past 'God'(s) and the presumptions of
> those he 'speaks through' the sooner we learn not to deflect 
>responsibilty for our own deeds... 


AFAIK God encourages personal responsibility

I think some peoples claims say more about them than about God



> >Hopefully a free and prosperous Afganistan will emerge in future 
years.
> 
> Hopefully, but how likely, given the current state of play?


I am not saying I condone what is happening, but didn't Japan rise 
out of the ashes, to be a very strong nation today, Probably america 
played a big part in this.
OTOH afganistan is quite a different situation and no one wants to 
see the US establishing a big presence in afganistan , as they did in 
Japan. 
Maak Bow

Re: [L-OT] OT^2 - Thanks

2001-10-08 by ythan@btinternet.com

> >>>Obviously because the planet's resources are not sufficient 
to allow
> >>>all humanity to live like Americans. I thought everybody 
knew that ...
-----
hahahahahahah! 

un sub fucking scribe me from this pathetic list immediatley!

Re: [L-OT] OT^2 - Thanks

2001-10-08 by Joeri Vankeirsbilck

> What is fundamentally different about the way Americans live compared to
> Europeans or Japanese?


Energy consumption per capita in the US is much higher than anywhere 
else. However, other Western countries are heading the same way in the 
future though.

-- 
Joeri Vankeirsbilck
joeri@...

Belway Productions      -     http://www.belway.com
List-admin   Logic-users/SoundD*ver-users/Logic-TDM

Re: [L-OT] OT^2 - Thanks

2001-10-08 by Joeri Vankeirsbilck

>
> > >>>Obviously because the planet's resources are not sufficient
> to allow
> > >>>all humanity to live like Americans. I thought everybody
> knew that ...

Before anyone takes my reaction on this too serious: I was not trying to 
get involved in the discussion, I was just writing something I read 
somewhere.

-- 
Joeri Vankeirsbilck
joeri@...

Belway Productions      -     http://www.belway.com
List-admin   Logic-users/SoundD*ver-users/Logic-TDM

Re: [L-OT] OT^2 - Thanks

2001-10-08 by Joeri Vankeirsbilck

> un sub fucking scribe me from this pathetic list immediatley!


Yan, are you sure? If so, please confirm to me privately and I'll unsub you.

-- 
Joeri Vankeirsbilck
joeri@...

Belway Productions      -     http://www.belway.com
List-admin   Logic-users/SoundD*ver-users/Logic-TDM

Re: [L-OT] OT^2 - Thanks

2001-10-09 by Vincent Kenis

>  > >>>Obviously because the planet's resources are not sufficient
>to allow
>>  >>>all humanity to live like Americans. I thought everybody
>knew that ...
>-----
>hahahahahahah!

Dear Ythan, I would like to know the meaning of your hahahahahahah!

Do you put in doubt what I wrote ?
or do you think it's funny ?
or stupid ?
why ?

Thank you

Re: [L-OT] OT^2 - Thanks

2001-10-09 by yoonchinet@yahoo.com

--- In logic-ot@y..., Joeri Vankeirsbilck <joeri@b...> wrote:
> > What is fundamentally different about the way Americans live compared to
> > Europeans or Japanese?
> 
> 
> Energy consumption per capita in the US is much higher than anywhere 
> else. However, other Western countries are heading the same way in the 
> future though.

Interesting point here. This could mean one of two things:
1. The US productivity per person is the highest in the world, or
2. The wasting per person in the US is the highest in the world.

1. is not the case as I know, so it means that the second case is at hand. Wouldn't it be a great idea to use energy more moderately?
Two reasons come to mind:
1. Think of the next generations to come, be less selfish within a market driven system.
2. Think of the environment you live in, the more you make the environment you live in hostile the more it will cost you in the long run to live in, thus the more energy you need, etc. etc.

Yoonchi.
Ps I'm sorry that the American president made a stupid move by attacking a country just for political reasons, not for the purpose to fight terrorism.

Re: [L-OT] OT^2 - Thanks

2001-10-09 by GAmoore@aol.com

>> Energy consumption per capita in the US is much higher than anywhere
>This could mean one of two things:
>1. The US productivity per person is the highest in the world, or
>2. The wasting per person in the US is the highest in the world.
>
>1. is not the case as I know, so it means that the second case is at hand.


Actually I think it is the case. I was surprised to see that the US workers 
are more productive than Japanese workers - by whatever statistical method 
such things are computed.

Imagine two states - one that makes steel and uses huge amounts of coal fires 
for that, and one that makes software, and uses only electricy. Energy 
consumption is not by itself a reliable indication of productivity.



>Yoonchi.
>Ps I'm sorry that the American president made a stupid move by attacking
>a country just for political reasons, not for the purpose to fight terrorism.


What kind of stupid comment is that? Are the leaders of Europe and Russia all 
fools? They have all seen the evidence and support us fully - not to mention 
many other nations.

Today on the news is two were infected by Anthrax in a Florida newspaper with 
a form not found in nature. The time has come to end this non stop string of 
innocent deaths. 

Privately, most countries in the world, even moslem countries are glad we are 
going after that viper's nest to clean it out.

Re: [L-OT] OT^2 - Thanks

2001-10-09 by Wilson Zorn

>
> Call it what you like, in the end it is a matter of relativity...  If
> you have wealthy people, you will, by necessity, have impoverished
> people and those who 'come up' do so at the expense of others.  Look
> around you...
>
>
In point of fact we've seen often (by no means always) that all do benefit
from general prosperity though in some periods the gap between the rich and
the poor has grown (France before the revolution, US pre-depression).  There
seems to be little evidence that the wealthy take from the impoverished
(particularly as they have little to give) but there is enough evidence to
merit a debate as to the extent to which the impoverished are kept at some
distance by the wealthy.  In the modern era, anyway, one of the interesting
components of capitalism is conspicuous consumption.  In order for that
consumption to continue to produce higher profits, more people must be
engaged at greater-than-sustenance levels of production.  You may well
define that "impoverished" itself is a relative term and in those terms
indeed it appears we have no means at our avail in the near future to
socialize our societies to the extent necessary to eliminate improverishment
and wealth, even if one desired to (I do not, at least not in that relative
a terminology).  But it appears we may have enough resources to allow for
the relative enrichment of all to a point, perhaps a point which even
supports the billions on the planet now at a Western standard of living.
Then again, of course there is a theoretical limit in population that can be
supported with current technology, but we don't know that limit and we don't
know what combination of techology, enterprise, politics, and other skills
to apply to solve the problems of rapidly expanding populations against
currently finite resources or political struggles over inequitable resource
allocation.

Re: [L-OT] OT^2 - Thanks

2001-10-09 by Wilson Zorn

Everybody does not because it is not a demonstrable fact.  To make that
statement one has to make certain assumptions about fuels and food
production which may or may not be true, particularly in the face of
scientific advances.  It might be better to say that humanity will not allow
itself to live like Americans given geopolitics for which we see no
solutions until entire philosophies change.

----- Original Message -----
Show quoted textHide quoted text
From: "Vincent Kenis" <vincent.k@...>
To: <logic-ot@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Monday, October 08, 2001 7:02 AM
Subject: Re: [L-OT] OT^2 - Thanks


> >What a stubbornly negative view.  Why does anyone  have to "come
> >down"?
>
> Obviously because the planet's resources are not sufficient to allow
> all humanity to live like Americans. I thought everybody knew that ...
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>

Re: [L-OT] OT^2 - Thanks

2001-10-09 by Wilson Zorn

> > Energy consumption per capita in the US is much higher than anywhere
> > else. However, other Western countries are heading the same way in the
> > future though.
>
> Interesting point here. This could mean one of two things:
> 1. The US productivity per person is the highest in the world, or
> 2. The wasting per person in the US is the highest in the world.
>
> 1. is not the case as I know, so it means that the second case is at hand.

Why do you know this is not the case?  Why can 1 and 2 not be true?  I mean
no offense to anyone else consuming energy, just wondering how you can claim
as fact that in fact we Americans are not the most productive.  It may be
true.

<energy consumption advice snipped as I have no interest in going over this>

> Yoonchi.
> Ps I'm sorry that the American president made a stupid move by attacking a
country just for political reasons, not for the purpose to fight terrorism.
>

I'm sorry you don't get it.  Pardon me, but what the heck do you think we're
attacking?  We're attacking the Taliban and terrorist strongholds.  In fact
personally, as someone who has long thought America's had no guts for this
and in the past struck often for political reasons (including Carter (well
only sort of, he manipulated the news to his political ends), Reagan, Bush
Sr. and Clinton), I believe we're going about this the right, careful way.
Yes, I realize civilians will get hurt.  I wish that were impossible.  But
I've yet to see evidence we've been anything but careful, INCLUDING from
reports from within Afghanistan.

Re: [L-OT] OT^2 - Thanks

2001-10-09 by Dennis Gunn

At 4:02 PM +0200 10/8/01, Vincent Kenis wrote:
>  >What a stubbornly negative view.  Why does anyone  have to "come
>>down"?
>
>Obviously because the planet's resources are not sufficient to allow
>all humanity to live like Americans. I thought everybody knew that ...

*sigh*

1.  The issue in this conflict is clearly not energy consumption.  If 
you have been listening to what bin Laden has been saying and came to 
the conclusion it was, then you should check around and see where 
your marbles have rolled off to.

2.  If you believe that the issue is distribution of wealth then you 
must remember that the wealth of the Arab world comes from US, 
Europe, and Japanese energy consumption.  Historically OPEC has done 
everything in their power to encourage that energy consumption.  It 
is true that the wealth generated among many of those Islamic Oil 
producing countries is poorly distributed within those countries 
populations.  I am not of the opinion that there is a whole lot the 
US can do about that, but I am very doubtful that reducing the amount 
of money entering the economies of those countries would be of any 
particular benefit to their populations.  It would be nice see those 
countries investing in technologies that may be of economic use to 
them in a future where they have less oil to sell.  Maybe that is 
happening but I have not seen any examples.

3.  There are historical as well as geographical reasons why the US 
energy consumption is relatively high.  The US infrastructure was not 
built in a day. It has been developing over about a 100 year period 
during which energy was relatively cheap.  I have always thought that 
American automobile manufacturers could put more effort into 
increasing fuel economy of their cars.  In the past few years they 
have been doing better.  But the reasons for them doing so have very 
little to do with inherent morality just as the reasons why things 
are different in Europe have nothing to do with inherent morality 
which brings me to:

4.  There are historical as well as geographical reasons why European 
energy consumption is relatively low.  European automobiles and 
peoples basic habits with regard to energy consumption have developed 
in an atmosphere where the cost of energy was relatively high.  But 
the reasons for them doing so have very little to do with inherent 
morality its mainly just a matter of history and economics.  Now it 
has become extremely convenient OTOH for Europeans to claim a 
position of moral superiority since they can do so without changing 
their habits at all and can conveniently ignore the fact that is was 
economy rather than environmental considerations that lead to their 
energy consumption habits in the first place.

5.  I live in Tokyo.  I am highly skeptical about any claims that 
Japanese energy consumption habits are better than those in the US. 
For example on a hot summer day there are sections of town where you 
can cool off just walking on the street in front off the large open 
store fronts where the cold air from the air conditioners just pours 
out on the street.  Several areas within Tokyo are about as bright as 
Las Vegas every night.  Most houses to this day do not have 
insulation in the walls.  I think people may put less miles on their 
cars because the streets are narrower and more crowded and it just 
takes longer to get anywhere.  I can't be sure about this though. 
Traffic is incredibly heavy I regularly see traffic jams even when I 
am taking a Taxi at 3:00 AM .  I take a train whenever I can but they 
stop running at about 12:30, since there are still a lot of people 
working and commuting after those hours IMHO a vast amount of energy 
could be saved just but running the trains and subways 24/7. 
Working in "show biz" as I do I am also skeptical of any statistic 
cited in the media because I have witnessed with my own eyes people 
"just making them up".

6.  The technology exists now to decrease energy consumption and do 
it in a way the will not have an un acceptable impact on peoples life 
styles.  I am all for that.  Promotion of these technologies should 
be a priority of western governments.  Bitching and whining about us 
being too rich and them being to poor will never work.   People like 
to be wealthy.  That won't change.  The realistic solution of the 
problem is to implement the technologies that allow people to live 
well with out living wastefully.  It's happening.  Slowly.

7.  I don't "know" what will be possible in the future regarding 
living standards but I do know that vast amounts resources are 
totally wasted on war, corruption, and repression.
-- 


                                 Dennis Gunn
                                 Mightyjohn@...

                  check out  MIGHTY JOHN HENRY's album "hot air head"
                                                    info at
                        http://www.twics.com/~mightyjo/home.html

Re: [L-OT] OT^2 - Thanks

2001-10-09 by Sascha Franck

Not even that the US has the highest energy consumption per person, it also
has the (way!) highest meat consumption per person and we all know that this
is an ecological tragedy (7 plant calories for 1 meat calory without even
thinking about the results of that) which also causes an economical tragedy
for some parts of the world (producing the required plant calories).

And yes, such things (and their follow-ups) are the reason for the US to be
one of the major targets for terrorism.

Also, now we all have to agree with the US (at least allmost all the
european governments do), but what about let's say Kyoto? "Oh, sorry, we are
the US, our economical wealth is more important than some stupid environment
protection".
But with the WTC attacks everybody expects us to be and agree with you, eh?
Not me, sorry (don't get me wrong, I'm with all the poor innocent people
being killed in the WTC).

What about the Taliban? They have existed before, they have been as bad
before. Did anybody EVER care about that? The answer simply is no. First
time people were interested was when the "Shelter Now" employees were
arrested.
What about bin Laden? Since when has he been announcing his fight against
the US? Certainly not only since 09|11|2001. Has the mighty CIA done
anything against that? Again the answer is no because none of their famous
agents wants to live surrounded by fatalist muslims, only wants to breath
hot and dusty air without any women and alcohol around (this is not like a
OO7/Timothy Dalton movie). So the El-Quaida hasn't been infiltered at all
(neither has ANY islamic fundamentalistic organisation been infiltered).
Also, as long as it was good for their position, the US government has
supported radical fundamentalists in Afghanistan (the Mudjahiddin fighting
the former USSR). Now, all of a sudden they are bad, huh?
Don't tell me you care about peace in the world, ALL the western countries
(usually) only care about things when their OWN interests/people are
attacked. I can't stand those pseudo "we are the saviour of peace in the
world" approaches any longer.

OK, I won't comment on this any further, most likely I also won't reply to
anything again because of 2 reasons:
1) I have seen WAY too much of these weird discussions during the last weeks
and none of them made me change my mind at all (that might just be me but
that's what it is like), and (maybe as important)
2) My english simply isn't as good to stand a political and/or rethoric
discussion about such things.

Peace,
Sascha

Re: [L-OT] OT^2 - Thanks

2001-10-09 by Dennis Gunn

At 9:32 AM +0200 10/9/01, Sascha Franck wrote:
>Not even that the US has the highest energy consumption per person, it also
>has the (way!) highest meat consumption per person and we all know that this
>is an ecological tragedy (7 plant calories for 1 meat calory without even
>thinking about the results of that) which also causes an economical tragedy
>for some parts of the world (producing the required plant calories).
>
>And yes, such things (and their follow-ups) are the reason for the US to be
>one of the major targets for terrorism.

Utter nonsense.   There is simply no foundation for this statement as 
it relates to this incident and, as I have said before, I strongly 
suggest you look at exactly how much sympathy the terrorists actions 
have gained for *their* causes before you start  intimating they were 
acting to promote *your* causes.  As much as I may sympathize with 
and, yes, support the environmental movement this type of tactic 
makes me embarrassed to admit any kind of association with anyone in 
it.

>Also, now we all have to agree with the US (at least allmost all the
>european governments do), but what about let's say Kyoto? "Oh, sorry, we are
>the US, our economical wealth is more important than some stupid environment
>protection".
>But with the WTC attacks everybody expects us to be and agree with you, eh?
>Not me, sorry (don't get me wrong, I'm with all the poor innocent people
>being killed in the WTC).

I have no idea what you are saying.  Do you think the WTC attack had 
something to do with Kyoto.  What is the connection in your mind 
between these issues.  Is it something like being opposed to the use 
of toilet paper because of the harmful effects of pulp mills on the 
environment and therefore not being able to take the side of butt 
wipers when they are attacked by other butt wipers because you are 
militant butt washer?

>What about the Taliban? They have existed before, they have been as bad
>before. Did anybody EVER care about that? The answer simply is no. First
>time people were interested was when the "Shelter Now" employees were
>arrested.

Wrong on all counts.  There has been an international uproar about 
their activities for years.  Until now there have simply been no 
legitimate grounds for intervention that the Muslim world would agree 
with.  If recent events added to their track record do not qualify in 
your book as grounds for intervention I guess we don't have much to 
talk about.

>What about bin Laden? Since when has he been announcing his fight against
>the US? Certainly not only since 09|11|2001. Has the mighty CIA done
>anything against that? Again the answer is no because none of their famous
>agents wants to live surrounded by fatalist muslims, only wants to breath
>hot and dusty air without any women and alcohol around (this is not like a
>OO7/Timothy Dalton movie). So the El-Quaida hasn't been infiltered at all
>(neither has ANY islamic fundamentalistic organisation been infiltered).

So what are you saying?  Are you complaining because the CIA was not 
active enough?  I'm pretty sure that if they had been more active you 
would be bitching about *that* so it's pretty clear there would be no 
pleasing you either way.  Why didn't *you* infiltrate the Taliban?

>Also, as long as it was good for their position, the US government has
>supported radical fundamentalists in Afghanistan (the Mudjahiddin fighting
>the former USSR). Now, all of a sudden they are bad, huh?

What "all of a sudden"?!?!  Have you been following the news relating 
to the for the past few years at all?

>Don't tell me you care about peace in the world, ALL the western countries
>(usually) only care about things when their OWN interests/people are
>attacked. I can't stand those pseudo "we are the saviour of peace in the
>world" approaches any longer.

Don't tell me you know what *I* care about because you clearly don't.

-- 


                                 Dennis Gunn
                                 Mightyjohn@...

                  check out  MIGHTY JOHN HENRY's album "hot air head"
                                                    info at
                        http://www.twics.com/~mightyjo/home.html

Re: [L-OT] OT^2 - Thanks

2001-10-09 by Sascha Franck

Dennis Gunn wrote:
> Utter nonsense.
[snip]

As said, I won't reply to this any further.
If you can't see what I was talking about it wouldn't make any sense either
(as with almost all people from the US I talked about this).
You can easily have the last word on this one. Good luck.

Sascha

Re: [L-OT] OT^2 - Thanks

2001-10-09 by Joeri Vankeirsbilck

>  1.  The issue in this conflict is clearly not energy consumption.


I agree.

>
> 2.  If you believe that the issue is distribution of wealth then you
> must remember that the wealth of the Arab world comes from US,
> Europe, and Japanese energy consumption...but I am very doubtful that 
> reducing the amount
> of money entering the economies of those countries would be of any
> particular benefit to their populations.

Agreed.

>   It would be nice see those
> countries investing in technologies that may be of economic use to
> them in a future where they have less oil to sell.  Maybe that is
> happening but I have not seen any examples.

In Dubai, the biggest production plant for th next "fuel" is being 
prepared. I can't think of the English name (or the chemical code), but 
I mean the clean 'fuel' which is extracted from water and which is said 
to be the energy source for the future. Reason why it's built there: 
first of all because Dubai is a place with a lot of sun (which, 
apparently they need for extracting it) and second because those 
oil-sheiks (sorry for the spelling) are investing an awful lot of money 
in it (together with Shell and other oil companies) to make sue they can 
still make money once the new energy source is the most important one.

>
>
> 3.  There are historical as well as geographical reasons why the US
> energy consumption is relatively high.  The US infrastructure was not
> built in a day. It has been developing over about a 100 year period
> during which energy was relatively cheap.  I have always thought that
> American automobile manufacturers could put more effort into
> increasing fuel economy of their cars.  In the past few years they
> have been doing better.  But the reasons for them doing so have very
> little to do with inherent morality just as the reasons why things
> are different in Europe have nothing to do with inherent morality
> which brings me to:

The reason is because fuel is much cheaper in the US.

>
>
> 4.  There are historical as well as geographical reasons why European
> energy consumption is relatively low.  European automobiles and
> peoples basic habits with regard to energy consumption have developed
> in an atmosphere where the cost of energy was relatively high.  But
> the reasons for them doing so have very little to do with inherent
> morality its mainly just a matter of history and economics.  Now it
> has become extremely convenient OTOH for Europeans to claim a
> position of moral superiority since they can do so without changing
> their habits at all and can conveniently ignore the fact that is was
> economy rather than environmental considerations that lead to their
> energy consumption habits in the first place.
>
> 5.  I live in Tokyo.  I am highly skeptical about any claims that
> Japanese energy consumption habits are better than those in the US.
> For example on a hot summer day there are sections of town where you
> can cool off just walking on the street in front off the large open
> store fronts where the cold air from the air conditioners just pours
> out on the street.  Several areas within Tokyo are about as bright as
> Las Vegas every night.  Most houses to this day do not have
> insulation in the walls.  I think people may put less miles on their
> cars because the streets are narrower and more crowded and it just
> takes longer to get anywhere.  I can't be sure about this though.
> Traffic is incredibly heavy I regularly see traffic jams even when I
> am taking a Taxi at 3:00 AM .  I take a train whenever I can but they
> stop running at about 12:30, since there are still a lot of people
> working and commuting after those hours IMHO a vast amount of energy
> could be saved just but running the trains and subways 24/7.
> Working in "show biz" as I do I am also skeptical of any statistic
> cited in the media because I have witnessed with my own eyes people
> "just making them up".
>
> 6.  The technology exists now to decrease energy consumption and do
> it in a way the will not have an un acceptable impact on peoples life
> styles.  I am all for that.  Promotion of these technologies should
> be a priority of western governments.  Bitching and whining about us
> being too rich and them being to poor will never work.   People like
> to be wealthy.  That won't change.  The realistic solution of the
> problem is to implement the technologies that allow people to live
> well with out living wastefully.  It's happening.  Slowly.
>
> 7.  I don't "know" what will be possible in the future regarding
> living standards but I do know that vast amounts resources are
> totally wasted on war, corruption, and repression.
> -- 
>



-- 
Joeri Vankeirsbilck
joeri@...

Belway Productions      -     http://www.belway.com
List-admin   Logic-users/SoundD*ver-users/Logic-TDM

Re: [L-OT] OT^2 - Thanks

2001-10-09 by Joeri Vankeirsbilck

Sorry, I sent off the other mail too soon.... :( I hit the wrong button 
while replying.

>>1. is not the case as I know, so it means that the second case is at hand.
> 
> Actually I think it is the case. I was surprised to see that the US workers
> are more productive than Japanese workers - by whatever statistical method
> such things are computed.

I believe the German people are the most productive. They're also the 
most expensive workers afair.

  >  1.  The issue in this conflict is clearly not energy consumption.


I agree.

  >
  > 2.  If you believe that the issue is distribution of wealth then you
  > must remember that the wealth of the Arab world comes from US,
  > Europe, and Japanese energy consumption...but I am very doubtful that
  > reducing the amount
  > of money entering the economies of those countries would be of any
  > particular benefit to their populations.

Agreed.

  >   It would be nice see those
  > countries investing in technologies that may be of economic use to
  > them in a future where they have less oil to sell.  Maybe that is
  > happening but I have not seen any examples.

In Dubai, the biggest production plant for th next "fuel" is being
prepared. I can't think of the English name (or the chemical code), but
I mean the clean 'fuel' which is extracted from water and which is said
to be the energy source for the future. Reason why it's built there:
first of all because Dubai is a place with a lot of sun (which,
apparently they need for extracting it) and second because those
oil-sheiks (sorry for the spelling) are investing an awful lot of money
in it (together with Shell and other oil companies) to make sue they can
still make money once the new energy source is the most important one.


  > 3.  There are historical as well as geographical reasons why the US
  > energy consumption is relatively high.  The US infrastructure was not
  > built in a day. It has been developing over about a 100 year period
  > during which energy was relatively cheap.  I have always thought that
  > American automobile manufacturers could put more effort into
  > increasing fuel economy of their cars.  In the past few years they
  > have been doing better.  But the reasons for them doing so have very
  > little to do with inherent morality just as the reasons why things
  > are different in Europe have nothing to do with inherent morality
  > which brings me to:

As you say correctly in the next paragraph, the reason is because fuel 
is much cheaper in the US. If it were cheaper in Europe, we'd be wasting 
as much as the US.

  > Now it
  > has become extremely convenient OTOH for Europeans to claim a
  > position of moral superiority

I don't think this was the intention. It wasn't mine anyway.

Oh, and by the way, Belgium has most lights in the world (per m²). to 
give you an idea: all our roads have lights most of the time. Luckily, 
in the last two years, we're finally switching off the lights on the 
highways between 00.30h and 05.00h. Imo they should just remove all 
those lights.

  > since there are still a lot of people
  > working and commuting after those hours IMHO a vast amount of energy
  > could be saved just but running the trains and subways 24/7.

The same over here: I was surprised to see that when I was in Berlin, 
there was public transport 24/7. Where I live, I can't take a bus 
between 22.00h and 06.00. Very stuuuupid.

  > 6.  The technology exists now to decrease energy consumption and do
  > it in a way the will not have an un acceptable impact on peoples life
  > styles.  I am all for that.  Promotion of these technologies should
  > be a priority of western governments.

Also, governments should use their environment taxes for the things they 
were meant for. Right now in Belgium, those taxes are often used to fill 
up the gap in government spending.

 > Also, now we all have to agree with the US (at least allmost all the
 > european governments do), but what about let's say Kyoto? "Oh, sorry, 
we are
 > the US, our economical wealth is more important than some stupid 
environment
 > protection".

We're slowly killing ourselves imo.

 > What about the Taliban? They have existed before, they have been as bad
 > before. Did anybody EVER care about that? The answer simply is no.

Agreed.

 > Also, as long as it was good for their position, the US government has
 > supported radical fundamentalists in Afghanistan (the Mudjahiddin 
fighting
 > the former USSR). Now, all of a sudden they are bad, huh?

World politics are a dirty game. One of our previous Belgian kings has 
killed more than 10 mio Congolese people (many years ago when Congo was 
our colony). Only few Belgians know that. We now send some "aid" there 
because we want to make ourselves feel better.

 > Don't tell me you care about peace in the world, ALL the western 
countries
 > (usually) only care about things when their OWN interests/people are
 > attacked. I can't stand those pseudo "we are the saviour of peace in the
 > world" approaches any longer.

I fully agree with this and also share this feeling. :-(


PS: reason why I mentioned Belgium so often is because I don't want to 
make it look like I have anything against the US. I don't have anything 
against the US, but still want to reply to some things in the "safest" 
possible way without being flamed. ;-))

Bye,
Joeri



-- 
Joeri Vankeirsbilck
joeri@...

Belway Productions      -     http://www.belway.com
List-admin   Logic-users/SoundD*ver-users/Logic-TDM

Re: [L-OT] OT^2 - Thanks

2001-10-09 by Vincent Kenis

>the Arab/Islam world is largely poor except for certain
>people in certain oil countries. And yet they don't make much effort to start
>businesses or farms, or create seed money that will lead to economic
>prosperity.

Americans have been taught to believe fairytales such as "we built 
our country by our sole efforts", "if other countries didn't succeed 
the same way it's because they are lazy, stupid or they don't have 
God on their side", "we help the world" etc. Maybe these fairytales 
are necessary in a country born on genocide and slavery, where a good 
part of the slaves' grandchildren still live in subhuman conditions, 
and which sucks the planet dry in a criminal way. I don't know. But I 
wish you looked around and realized that the world isn't based on 
fair trade or equal chances.

For example, millions of people died in Congo since the independence 
because of American/European economical warfare. In the Sixties, the 
wealth of John Kennedy's family depended largely on copper mines, of 
which Katanga's copper mines were unbeatable competitors which had to 
be impoverished and weakened by all means and at all costs. The 
present war west of the Great Lakes region is because certain 
minerals essential for cell phones & next generation CPUs are to be 
found only there. When it comes to international terrorism Ben Laden 
is just a schoolboy, America and Europe have been exporting war and 
desolation for decades.

El-Quaida won't change this, of course... after all fundamentalist 
muslims have nothing against capitalist exploitation. But the anger 
on which they prosper, and which makes possible their crimes, is 
entirely justified, and should be addressed before Ben Laden appears 
as a sort of muslim Robin Hood for the whole of humanity except the 
G8, which is the worst case scenario we're heading to, unfortunately, 
since America reacts so stupidly with its calls for religious war.

Re: [L-OT] OT^2 - Thanks

2001-10-09 by Kool Musick

Since it necessarily deals with people and the behaviour of people, every 
economic theory is in the end also a political one. A theory of economics 
requires a massaging of people so that they fulfill the roles that the 
given economic theory requires. Historically, the Emperors Constantine and 
Charlemagne and their descendants, for example, had an economic theory ... 
and they were perfectly happy to massage their societies into the shape it 
required to make those theories work. This was partly responsible for what 
historians call 'the Middle Ages' or 'the Dark Ages'.

That kind of massaging of people is a lot easier to do when the 
mathematical and scientific basis of that theory bears some relation to the 
reality that people perceive around them. The contemporary classic example 
of this is Karl Marx's theory where he tried to explain a set of political 
observations by allying them to what he thought was a sound economic 
theory. The iniquities that Marx observed were very real -- the oppression 
of large communities of people in factories etc while the Industrial 
Revolution occurred around them in such a way that a few benefitted while 
many suffered. Marx's big problem, however, was that the economic theory he 
devised to explain this phenomenon, and then to counter it, was 
mathematically bogus. His theory about rates of return and rates of capital 
were just plain wrong as Samuelson was later able to prove by using some 
sophisticated arguments based upon an econometric model using matrix 
mathematics. Samuelson simply studied the observed behaviour of economies 
and demonstrated that the economic behaviour Marx was alluding to had never 
in fact been observed anywhere, and that the relative prices of labour and 
capital never in fact behaved in the way he said they would. The patent 
failure of Communist regimes to deliver on their promises is in no small 
measure linked to the fact that Karl Marx was a very poor mathematician, 
and that the model he devised was simply incapable of delivering the 
results he promised. No amount of tinkering with large scale economic 
structures or at a governmental scale (5-year plans or whatever), be this 
in Russia or elsewhere, was going to make an erroneous scientific-economic 
theory work. No matter how great was the political and social control that 
the governments who practised that system exercised, they simply could not 
deliver appropriate economic results.

This has got nothing to do with whether or not Marx's actual political 
ideas or ideals, based as they were on ideas of 'the brotherhood of man' 
are or are not laudable. This is simply to do with the fact that it was not 
possible to realize those ideas through the economic theory that he 
produced in order to support them.

In complete contrast to Karl Marx, Adam Smith produced a very different 
economic model. Smith, however, took a very different approach. He started 
by looking at the very best physical, and therefore mathematical, model of 
his day, which was Newton's theory of gravitation. Smtih then set out 
explicitly to construct a model of economic behaviour that was as 
mathematically sound and logically rigorous as Newton's. The 'force' that 
he came up with, and which was intended to act as the mathematical analogue 
to Newton's theory of gravitation, he called 'competition'.

By competition Smith meant that in the face of uncertain information, all 
economic entities were to be regarded as acting in one very simple way: 
they all set out to procure goods and resources at the minimum possible 
prices that they could; and they all set out to dispense and sell goods at 
the maximum possible price they could attain. Price therefore became the 
sole method of interaction between economic entities. This system became 
called capitalism. The only thing then necessary was for governments and 
societies to put into being the social organizations that would make it 
work. It had, of course, a corollary. The information available to actors 
was uncertain, and so also their responses were uncertain. In the face of 
this no-one could predict exactly what economic actors would do. The only 
thing the model could predict was that no matter what they did they would 
maximize profits and find ways to acquire resources and produce goods. 
Therefore, the best thing any government could do would be to leave 
economic actors to get on with such transactions, conducted through the 
medium of price, and to interfere with it as little as possible.

And ... since Adam Smith came up with an explanation that made a lot of 
sense, both citizens and governments proved willing to do whatever it took 
to bring about the relevant economic and political reality. Adam Smith's 
theory remains, to this day, the most sound and best working economic 
model, and it therefore spreads itself wherever it can simply because when 
presented with a choice people tend to go for something that can produce 
results, and Smith's system does tend to produce results.

However ... every economic model has its political consequences. One of the 
problems with the Smith model is that of 'uncertain information'. What are 
people going to do in the face of 'uncertain information'? And what efforts 
are people going to make to come by 'more certain' information? And how are 
they going to behave as their stock of information increases?

What drives the Smith model is the proposition that when a consumer is 
confronted with two goods, one at a lower price than the other, they do not 
immediately know WHY one of the goods is being offered at a lower price. 
The brutal political reality of the world is that it is very likely priced 
more cheaply because a lot of rape and pillaging and exploitation of 
workers has gone on to make the good cheaper, but without specific and 
convincing information upon this point the 'average' consumer will tend to 
presume that one set of goods is lower in price for entirely 'altruistic' 
reasons having to do with the e.g. willingness of one party to offer goods 
for a lower price simply because in the long run they will make a bigger 
profit that way -- and not because some group of people has gone out of its 
way to make very sure that those providing the goods are paid considerably 
less than 'the minimum wage'. Whether or not such things do or do not 
happen you will have to judge for yourself.

There is another 'problem' with the Smith model -- although whether or not 
this is 'really' a problem depends upon your political point of view. 
Please remember that the Smith model is based upon a model analogous to 
gravitation. And ... gravity is about height. What this means is that since 
all goods begin at 'zero height' and are 'in the environment' (i.e. they 
are all initially resources and not goods) then if one object ends up at a 
higher location than another (i.e. it has somehow become a 'more valuable' 
good), then something must have happened to get it there.

There are two possibilities. Either, someone worked upon it to make it more 
valuable; or else it has somehow been taken away from one person by 
another. By the same token ... if some economic group is 'wealthy' or 
'high-up', then something must have happened to 'elevate' those wealthy 
groups relative to the non-wealthy ones. The only question now is -- how, 
when, and why did that relative elevation occur? Again you will have to 
ponder upon such things for yourself. The important factor here is what 
people are inclined to presume given a world of uncertain information ... 
or, of course, given a world in which obfuscation of facts is likely to 
occur when that obfuscation is in someone's interests because that 
obfuscation helps them increase the size of their profits in that the vast 
bulk of economic actors simply shrug their shoulders and pick the lower 
price -- when they do not have information to tell them why they shouldn't.

The question of exactly what processes have been imposed upon goods and or 
groups so that they can have a higher value and/or worth is, of course, 
very hard to answer without immediately straying into more overtly 
political considerations. It is a big argument that has gone on within the 
capitalist system pretty much ever since Smith invented it.

Some say that certain groups are wealthy simply and entirely because of the 
workings of 'the free market'. They append that argument by saying that the 
free market is totally dispassionate, it is 'natural', and it is inherently 
'fair' and 'just'. Others, of course, say that people can only get wealthy 
off the backs of others who are perforce obliged to remain poor and at the 
bottom of the ladder of wealth. In such a view the system is itself obliged 
to work in such a way that poor and exploited people are kept deliberately 
'out-of-sight' and 'out-of-mind' of economic actors who might well behave 
differently if they knew more about the processes involved in given 
economic transactions. To pick a reasonably current example doing the 
rounds at present, if Nike can manage to keep the vast bulk of its 
consumers unaware of exactly what it is doing to those of its workers 
located in 'less fortunate' countries and whom they force to work for no 
benefits and at extremely low wages, then given that the world is filled 
with uncertain and imperfect information it is very likely that those 
consumers will keep happily buying those goods because the 'best thing' 
that each of those consumers can do (for Nike, for themselves, and for the 
workers) is pay the lowest possible price they can to get the maximum 
possible benefits. They are additionally entitled to assume, without 
further evidence to the contrary, that Nike will act as they do -- which is 
do its best to make sure that those foreign workers are treated 'reasonably 
comparably' to the workers that they know about and who are located rather 
closer to home. Whether such things are so or not is, again, for you to 
judge. Please note, however, that the reality of the Smith model is still 
that it is a thesis about how consumers behave in a world of uncertain 
information.

Smith's system, uncertain information and all, works so well (at a 
governmental and predictive level) that it has survived the introduction of 
a new set of economic models. Economic theorists and politicians use game 
theory quite a lot now. And ... game theory is also about the kinds of 
decisions that individuals are likely to make when they are surrounded by 
uncertain information, given the need to attain a specific goal or target. 
In economic game theory that target is the same as in the Smith model 
namely: benefitting one's own self to the maximum possible degree and at 
the minimum possible cost. Interestingly enough, game theory is also used 
to help create strategies in war. And ... economics is about war because 
war (along with slavery and other forms of repression) is a very good way 
of extracting the maximum quantity of resources without having to 
recompense the people who provide those resources. In the Smith model, of 
course, if making war is felt by economic actors to be cheaper than 
engaging in acts of trade then a given economic group is likely to go to 
war or engage in other acts of aggression -- and particularly if it can be 
obfuscated so that there is uncertain information about the causes of war, 
its progress and the like.

The big question of our age, from an economic historical point of view, is 
the fact that information about 'others' on the planet is becoming less and 
less uncertain all the time; as also is information about the long-term 
consequences of economic actors being constantly encouraged to maximize 
their short-term economic gains. This means that the actions of governments 
(and corporations) in pursuit of economic goals are becoming less uncertain 
to potential economic actors. And ... whether or not capitalism as we know 
it can stand up against the fact that the system works at its best when all 
players in the market are forced to play with uncertain information is a 
big question that will probably be addressed over the next century or so.

As the G7/G8 powers are increasingly finding out to their cost, whenever 
they try to have a conference about the global economy, all the social 
sciences suffer from a very particular difficulty. Human beings are not in 
fact insensitive, unintelligent, or uninformed economic actors. They do 
have knowledge and information. They also often have strong beliefs about 
how human beings should conduct themselves. Their future actions are all 
too often tempered by that kind of knowledge, information or belief. And 
... the suspicion is growing amongst a significant proportion of 'the 
wealthy' of this planet that the wealth they currently enjoy has its roots 
in unpalatably low prices foisted upon others somewhere along the line. 
Somewhere along the line, steps have been taken to create their wealth that 
necessitated that other human beings could not in fact maintain 'a decent 
standard of living'. Political assassinations, economic disadvantaging, 
political repressions ..... And ... the suspicion amongst some regarding 
such things is now so high that they are beginning to use those suspicions 
to in their turn massage the political environment in which economic 
actions take place so that proper recompense is offered to those whom in 
their eyes were previously mistreated. Many of the economic actors 
concerned are perfectly willing to go out on the streets and demonstrate 
against such a system, to participate in environmental groups and the like.

And ... of course ... there are (at least) two different kinds of 
'uncertain information'. There is uncertain information because people 
genuinely cannot be expected to have more information; and there is 
uncertain information because people can't be bothered to make the effort 
to acquire it. Increasingly, people are pointing to the fact that the 
latter kind of uncertain information is inexcusable and that people SHOULD 
make the effort to acquire information about exactly what is involved in 
creating and producing the goods that they consume. (And, since America is 
the wealthiest collection of people on the planet and consuming far and 
away the most goods, this criticism is the most forcefully directed at US 
citizens to the point where its social and economic institutions are often 
accused of deliberately keeping its citizens uninformed so that the present 
economic situation can continue).

Uncertain information also has an interesting consequence in military and 
political actions. An interesting strategic imperative that wormed its way 
into both the Vietnam and Gulf Wars, to take but two recent and well known 
examples, was that so much of it was played out on TV. This had the 
consequence that those on behalf of whom the war was ostensibly being waged 
no longer had uncertain information about what was supposedly being done in 
their name. They could see very well what was being done 'in their name' 
... and many of them indicated that the price that they were being asked to 
pay in order to maintain the life-style that they had was not one that they 
were prepared to pay. This was also a big motivating factor in the Gulf 
War. The Head of State of a large military power was forced to make 
decisions about military objectives based upon the fact that the citizens 
in his nation could see what was happening on TV. For good or ill, military 
decisions were made in the light of that.

And, of course, one of the most important things about terrorism is that it 
is at its most effective when its actions are played out in the media. 
Terrorism can be regarded as a way of putting information before economic 
and political actors so that, with more information, they will modify the 
way that they live and realize that the profits that they are enjoying have 
come at a cost they might well not have been aware of. Possibly as a 
consequence of such factors we have the interesting military and political 
situation where a bomb is dropped by one hand at one minute, while seconds 
later parcels of food are dropped by the other hand. As any aid worker will 
attest, this is a near-100% wasteful way of donating humanitarian aid. As 
but one example, in the very area where those food parcels are being 
dropped the countryside is still full of minefields left by the Soviets -- 
and on average there are about a dozen incidents a day of mines going off. 
However, it is very likely that those food drops are not being dropped with 
the intention of helping the citizens of any beleaguered nation, but simply 
to massage the political opinions of those who can see the war upon their 
TV's, and who can see the parcels being dropped. They are the economic 
actors on behalf of whom the war is supposedly being waged. I leave you to 
draw conclusions. Please do not shoot the messenger. My intention is only 
to speak about an economic model.

Quite what will replace the Adam Smith model once global TV, radio and the 
Internet have knitted the whole world together even more than they do now 
nobody quite knows. There is also the issue of what human beings will do as 
it gradually dawns upon them that uncertain information can be very 
expensive politically. But ... seems like we are living in exactly that 
kind of age ... an age in which it does seem to bother some people that 
while they are able to make a high profit and have a high standard of 
living, others do not seem able to do so ... and rightly or wrongly they 
link these two together ... and then institute social movements based upon 
that perception. A large number of US citizens, for example, still refuse 
to link the poor economic and political status of Black Americans with the 
prior existence of slavery, while others say that they are linked. Linked 
or not, what is a fact is that alleviating the status of Black Americans, 
if anybody wants to do it, is very expensive economically and politically. 
This therefore boils down to the question of whether or not there is the 
economic and political will to do something about the situation. Most 
consumers, in a world of uncertain information, tend to favour the status 
quo or to carry on leaving their information uncertain in the belief that 
eventually price will solve everything.

But ... whatever replaces the Smith model it had better and also have a 
sound mathematical basis ... or else incorporate into it parameters that 
take into account what it is that people do, and how they behave 
politically and economically, once they are aware of the conditions under 
which live the people who are forced -- by the system -- to receive low 
prices and low wages for everything they have to offer.

One thing is certain though. If anybody wants to set up a new economic 
order then they are going to have to come up with a better predictive and 
economic model than Smith's because whatever may be its faults the Adam 
Smith model allows governments to make plans and bring about results. As 
the Communists found out to their cost, governments that cannot deliver on 
the promises they make are in the end in serious trouble. But ... for as 
long as Western governments can deliver results on the promises that they 
make (and what they always promise is that those who believe in the system 
they propagate will be better off tomorrow than they are today) then for so 
long will they have a method for making sure that the system continues in 
existence and that others also want to copy it. It is likely that the Smith 
model will only break down for one of two reasons: (a) a better model comes 
along; and (b) consumers indicate that the premise of uncertain knowledge 
is no longer an acceptable way of doing business and conducting economic 
affairs.

We seem to be living in such an age.

Kool Musick
Keep Musick Kool


_________________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get your free @... address at http://mail.yahoo.com

Re: [L-OT] OT^2 - Thanks

2001-10-09 by Mark at Enduser

I love this list...

Kool Music wrote:
> Since it necessarily deals with people and the behaviour of people, every
> economic theory is in the end also a political one.

<lots of great stuff snipped >

>It is likely that the Smith
> model will only break down for one of two reasons: (a) a better model
comes
> along; and (b) consumers indicate that the premise of uncertain knowledge
> is no longer an acceptable way of doing business and conducting economic
> affairs.

Please develop this into an essay and post it somewhere on the web, it made
a lot of things clearer to me - I finally have a foundation on which to
build more useful knowledge.

all I can say is Thanks
--
Mark Lennox
Consultant

ENDUSER
Guinness Enterprise Centre
Taylor's Lane
Dublin 8
Ireland
--
e-mail : mark@...
phone  : (+353 1) 4100 665
direct : (+353 1) 4100 707
fax : (+353 1) 4100 985
web    : http://www.enduser.ie
--

Re: [L-OT] OT^2 - Thanks

2001-10-09 by Murray McDowall

At 05:37 PM 9/10/01 +0200, you wrote:
>Wow !!  brilliant stuff. Thanks !
>but... what does "obfuscate" mean ?
>
"To make so confused or opaque as to be difficult to perceive or understand"

Re: [L-OT] OT^2 - Thanks

2001-10-09 by Spectro

<koolmusick@...>wrote:

[snip]

>One thing is certain though. If anybody wants to set up a new economic
>order then they are going to have to come up with a better predictive and
>economic model than Smith's because whatever may be its faults the Adam
>Smith model allows governments to make plans and bring about results. As
>the Communists found out to their cost, governments that cannot deliver on
>the promises they make are in the end in serious trouble. But ... for as
>long as Western governments can deliver results on the promises that they
>make (and what they always promise is that those who believe in the system
>they propagate will be better off tomorrow than they are today) then for so
>long will they have a method for making sure that the system continues in
>existence and that others also want to copy it. It is likely that the Smith
>model will only break down for one of two reasons: (a) a better model comes
>along; and (b) consumers indicate that the premise of uncertain knowledge
>is no longer an acceptable way of doing business and conducting economic
>affairs.
>
>We seem to be living in such an age.
>

Thanks for taking the time and effort to write this.

S.

Re: [L-OT] OT^2 - Thanks

2001-10-09 by Vincent Kenis

Wow !!  brilliant stuff. Thanks !
but... what does "obfuscate" mean ?

>Since it necessarily deals with people and the behaviour of people, every
>economic theory is in the end also a political one.

Re: [L-OT] OT^2 - Thanks

2001-10-10 by Wilson Zorn

I am *NOT* writing this to even debate most of your point, although I do not
agree with it.  I have a simple question re the below snipped point - do you
mean because the Taliban and bin Laden were bad before and we didn't do
anything then that we should just now allow them to continue and continue
our own do-nothingness???  Just looking for that clarification as I can't
imagine that's the logic you intended, but your point below follows you
saying you disagree with the current actions.
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> What about the Taliban? They have existed before, they have been as bad
> before. Did anybody EVER care about that? The answer simply is no. First
> time people were interested was when the "Shelter Now" employees were
> arrested.
> What about bin Laden? Since when has he been announcing his fight against
> the US? Certainly not only since 09|11|2001. Has the mighty CIA done
> anything against that? Again the answer is no because none of their famous

Attacking Afghanistan( was: Re: [L-OT] OT^2 - Thanks)

2001-10-11 by yoonchinet@yahoo.com

--- In logic-ot@y..., GAmoore@a... wrote:
I commented: 
> >Yoonchi.
> >Ps I'm sorry that the American president made a stupid move by attacking
> >a country just for political reasons, not for the purpose to fight terrorism.

And GA Moore reacted with:
> What kind of stupid comment is that? Are the leaders of Europe and Russia all 
> fools? They have all seen the evidence and support us fully - not to mention 
> many other nations.

Ok, I want to show you how 'stupid' my comment was.
First of all you tell a country, Afghanistan, to hand over a person, bin Laden, unconditionally. Then, you threaten them to attack them, if they don't hand over that person. You, the government of the USA, go around some countries, first stating that if you are not the ally you'll be the enemy of the USA. You show some leaders of the western world something, noone knows but those people in higher places, telling the world you can't show all because of security reasons. I can buy this.
Then you start a build up of the person bin Laden, as being the evil of all evil in the public eye. All of a suden the goal shifts from trying to combat terrorism to trying to overthrow the Taliban. What happened here?
Have you seen the evidence? Since when do you believe what these leaders tell you? The only glimpse I've seen of the declaration was of an article on the french Le Monde site, stating that bin Laden is a terrorist in the bombing of embassies in Kenya and Tanzania; the article can be found at http://www.lemonde.fr/article/0,5987,3230--229567-,00.html. It's in french. And it's not proof, just a declaration.
So all these nations, out of fear, decide to go the way America wants it. Remember the discussion you had with Hendrik Jan? How we don't want to go down like lemmings? That is exactly what is happening. And the focus has gone from combatting terrorism to attacking the Taliban regime. Not that I'm in favor of that ruthless Taliban regime, but the focus has shifted. What's next? Attacking Syria, because they shelter terrorists? Hey, that Syria regime is no fav of the US either so why not use a pretext to attack it too.
What next then, Saudi Arabia? I bet you'll have a big war on your hands there if you attack them.
So, I don't see why Bush couldn't get some diplomacy going there to get that terrorist network annihalated. Or maybe it's purposely done to shift the focus. So the real financers of terrorism are not revealed.
Result of the attacks: millions of refugees, a country devasted more than it already was, animocity towards Islamic countries with ground to breed extremists. And maybe the nationalist feelings of a nation satisfied, because 'we had to do something against these attrocities commited on September 11'
How 'stupid' was that?
Yoonchi.

Attacking the Taliban vs terrorism( was: Re: [L-OT] OT^2 - Thanks)

2001-10-11 by yoonchinet@yahoo.com

--- In logic-ot@y..., "Wilson Zorn" <wilson.zorn@a...> wrote:
> > Yoonchi.
> > Ps I'm sorry that the American president made a stupid move by attacking a
> country just for political reasons, not for the purpose to fight terrorism.
> >
> 
> I'm sorry you don't get it.  Pardon me, but what the heck do you think we're
> attacking?  We're attacking the Taliban and terrorist strongholds.  

This is exactly what I mean. The focus was first to attack terrorism. Now it has shifted to military action against the Taliban and terrorism seems to come in second place. The political view is being attacked while at first there was a campaign started to fight terrorism.
It's beside the point that I don't support the Taliban views. 

> Yes, I realize civilians will get hurt.  I wish that were impossible.

It is possible to realize certain goals without having to start a war or without casualties. The only difference is IMO that it takes longer. And for political reasons it isn't popular to have a campaign running for long periods of time.
Yoonchi.

Re: Attacking Afghanistan( was: Re: [L-OT] OT^2 - Thanks)

2001-10-11 by Mark at Enduser

> Ok imagine your name is T you live in a house with roommates.   You
> also have a guest who apparently likes to kill the tenants of the 30 ...

<lots of stuff snipped>

> ....Honestly  yoonchi what is it about this situation that is difficult
> for you to understand?
>

Dennis!

If you want to enter into a discussion with someone please stick to the
facts instead of using fairy stories. These kind of  tactics are exactly
what many in Europe find annoying about Americans and many in the Islamic
world find annoying about the western world in general.

The story glosses over the facts in hand. You cannot deny the subtle
interplay between nations over centuries. By using the story to berate
Yoonchi you do yourself an injustice and I would go as far as to say that
you do a diservice to the memory of all those killed on Sept 11 and all
those who will be killed stemming from these atrocities.

Debate and discussion are the lifeblood of society. If you conveniently
disregard the facts - and I'm surprised becuase you do seem to be generally
well-informed - then at a basic level you are rejecting society, humanity
and all those good things.

I really think at the very least you should apologise to Yoonchi - off list.

Just my opinion

kind regards
--
Mark Lennox
Consultant

ENDUSER
Guinness Enterprise Centre
Taylor's Lane
Dublin 8
Ireland
--
e-mail : mark@...
phone  : (+353 1) 4100 665
direct : (+353 1) 4100 707
fax : (+353 1) 4100 985
web    : http://www.enduser.ie
--

Re: Attacking Afghanistan( was: Re: [L-OT] OT^2 - Thanks)

2001-10-11 by Dennis Gunn

At 2:17 PM +0000 10/11/01, yoonchinet@... wrote:
>--- In logic-ot@y..., GAmoore@a... wrote:
>I commented:
>>  >Yoonchi.
>>  >Ps I'm sorry that the American president made a stupid move by attacking
>>  >a country just for political reasons, not for the purpose to 
>>fight terrorism.
>
>And GA Moore reacted with:
>>  What kind of stupid comment is that? Are the leaders of Europe and 
>>Russia all
>>  fools? They have all seen the evidence and support us fully - not to mention
>>  many other nations.
>
>Ok, I want to show you how 'stupid' my comment was.

Congratulations you were successful.

>First of all you tell a country, Afghanistan, to hand over a person, 
>bin Laden, unconditionally. Then, you threaten them to attack them, 
>if they don't hand over that person. You, the government of the USA, 
>go around some countries, first stating that if you are not the ally 
>you'll be the enemy of the USA. You show some leaders of the western 
>world something, noone knows but those people in higher places, 
>telling the world you can't show all because of security reasons. I 
>can buy this.
>Then you start a build up of the person bin Laden, as being the evil 
>of all evil in the public eye. All of a suden the goal shifts from 
>trying to combat terrorism to trying to overthrow the Taliban. What 
>happened here?

Ok imagine your name is T you live in a house with roommates.   You 
also have a guest who apparently likes to kill the tenants of the 30 
story apartment house on the next block while they are out walking 
their dogs.

Your guest even makes videos encouraging anyone he can to take up his 
hobby. He says not only is it fun, its a duty because dogs are 
unclean animals that walk around with their penises exposed in broad 
daylight.   And you know all about your guest's hobby because for one 
thing you have seen his videos.  But you don't try to stop or 
discourage him.

So the people in the apartment house decide that is enough is enough 
after some friends of your guest kill a whole bunch of the apartment 
dwellers and they have a meeting with the people in all the apartment 
houses in your neighborhood and everyone agrees that it's time for 
your guest to visit the courthouse.

So they send you a message that they want you to send out your guest. 
But you say no you'll take care of it.  Your neighbors however are 
skeptical about you taking care of it because the murder and video 
taping has been going on for ten years and you could have told your 
guest to leave at any time.  But you didn't.  So they say no you 
don't have to take care of it they will.

And you say that you will not let them have your guest and that you 
and your roommates will defend your guest with the last drop of your 
blood.

Well up until that point your neighbors had been giving you the 
benefit of a very large doubt.  Now they can't do that anymore 
because you are saying out right that you are willing to die to 
protect someone who's apparent goal in life is to kill them.

Well now Mr.  T.  How else can your neighbors interpret your actions 
than to assume that you support your guest and his Hobby?  What can 
they do?  You've taken the decision out of their hands they need to 
get your guest out of action for their own safety and you have said 
to get your guest out they have to get you out too.

So they agree to your terms.

Honestly  yoonchi what is it about this situation that is difficult 
for you to understand?


>Remember the discussion you had with Hendrik Jan? How we don't want 
>to go down like lemmings?

Your brave and heroic altruism truly is inspirational.


>  That is exactly what is happening. And the focus has gone from 
>combatting terrorism to attacking the Taliban regime. Not that I'm 
>in favor of that ruthless Taliban regime, but the focus has shifted. 
>What's next? Attacking Syria, because they shelter terrorists? Hey, 
>that Syria regime is no fav of the US either so why not use a 
>pretext to attack it too.

Is this your suggestion?

>What next then, Saudi Arabia? I bet you'll have a big war on your 
>hands there if you attack them.
>So, I don't see why Bush couldn't get some diplomacy going there to 
>get that terrorist network annihalated.

He did try that.  For a very reasonable amount of time.  Even got 
help where it was not expected.

>Or maybe it's purposely done to shift the focus. So the real 
>financers of terrorism are not revealed.

Yeah of course!  Now I see!  Really he is hoping there will be more 
terrorist attacks.  Yes of course that makes perfect sense.   How is 
that only you saw it?   Brilliant!!


>Result of the attacks: millions of refugees, a country devasted more 
>than it already was, animocity towards Islamic countries with ground 
>to breed extremists.

Result of the Taliban doing business as usual: millions of refugees, 
a country devasted more than it already was, animosity towards 
Islamic fundamentalists breeding extremists.

>And maybe the nationalist feelings of a nation satisfied, because 
>'we had to do something against these attrocities commited on 
>September 11'

Do you really think it would be reasonable to expect nothing to be done?
-- 


                                 Dennis Gunn
                                 Mightyjohn@...

                  check out  MIGHTY JOHN HENRY's album "hot air head"
                                                    info at
                        http://www.twics.com/~mightyjo/home.html

Re: Attacking Afghanistan( was: Re: [L-OT] OT^2 - Thanks)

2001-10-11 by Dennis Gunn

At 5:03 PM +0100 10/11/01, Mark at Enduser wrote:
>
>Dennis!
>
>The story glosses over the facts in hand.

Really?  I thought it was a rather accurate metaphor.

>You cannot deny the subtle
>interplay between nations over centuries.

There was nothing subtle about the attack.  Or the Taliban harboring 
bin Laden and his camps.  Or their constantly changing and totally 
conflicting stories about their relationship with him.


>By using the story to berate
>Yoonchi you do yourself an injustice and I would go as far as to say that
>you do a diservice to the memory of all those killed on Sept 11 and all
>those who will be killed stemming from these atrocities.

Huh?

>Debate and discussion are the lifeblood of society. If you conveniently
>disregard the facts -


Again I think it was an accurate metaphor.  What fact has been disregarded?



>and I'm surprised becuase you do seem to be generally
>well-informed -

Thank you.  That is a kind thing to say but it may be an illusion.  I 
have opinions but I frankly doubt that I am much better informed than 
anyone else around here.

>then at a basic level you are rejecting society, humanity
>and all those good things.

How so?   What did I miss.  Yoonchi says what I see as reasonable 
point of view is stupid.  And so I beg to differ and use a 
metaphorical story to illustrate my point.  What is the fact I have 
ignored.

>I really think at the very least you should apologise to Yoonchi - off list.

You are welcome to that opinion.  I don't share it.

But I suppose that at this point this is all just rehash.  And all 
those who I have offended will be happy to know that, though I will 
probably continue to be very angry for a very long time about what 
happened to my compatriots, I will try to shut up about it here. 
There is just one thing that I haven't said though.  It was *not* 
just an attack on us loud, naive, arrogant, evil, environmentally 
hostile US cowboys.  Take a look at your economies of the past weeks 
and tell me otherwise.

Not making any promises but I have pretty much exhausted my thoughts 
on the subject.

-- 


                                 Dennis Gunn
                                 Mightyjohn@...

                  check out  MIGHTY JOHN HENRY's album "hot air head"
                                                    info at
                        http://www.twics.com/~mightyjo/home.html

Re: Attacking Afghanistan( was: Re: [L-OT] OT^2 - Thanks)

2001-10-11 by denizen@INSYNC.NET

On Fri, 12 Oct 2001, Dennis Gunn wrote:

> At 5:03 PM +0100 10/11/01, Mark at Enduser wrote:
> >
> >Dennis!
> >
> >The story glosses over the facts in hand.
> 
> Really?  I thought it was a rather accurate metaphor.
> 
> >You cannot deny the subtle
> >interplay between nations over centuries.
> 
> There was nothing subtle about the attack.  Or the Taliban harboring 
> bin Laden and his camps.  Or their constantly changing and totally 
> conflicting stories about their relationship with him.

Nobody doubts the lack-of-subtlety in the 9-11 attack.  I think what Mark
meant by 'subtle interplay' was the complex history of interrelations
we've had with the middle east (and that they've had with each other) over
the centuries.  Not to mention the varied perspectives on those
interrelations.

To discount all the other possible political motives for the actions
against the Taliban, how they might be a small part of a much larger
American agenda in the middle east (not explained to the press for
political reasons), or how the grossly oversimplified popular version of
the story (the one which your metaphor fits perfectly) may just be
political spin, does a disservice to the complexity of the situation.

> Again I think it was an accurate metaphor.  What fact has been disregarded?
> 
> How so?   What did I miss.  Yoonchi says what I see as reasonable 
> point of view is stupid.  And so I beg to differ and use a 
> metaphorical story to illustrate my point.  What is the fact I have 
> ignored.

Well, for one, the fact that this is not even about Afghanistan
(represented by the guesthouse in your analogy).  Afghanistan just happens
to be the stage on which the bloody part of this long conflict begins to
unfold.  If it were another country that was taken over by a 
fundamentalist Islamic regime after it was destabilized by Russian
invasion and civil war, we'd be bombing it instead.

I don't necessarily disagree with what we're doing in Afghanistan right
now, but I have a serious problem with what amounts to blind agreement
with national policy, especially against an enemy this determined,
ruthless, and intelligent... and arguing the official point of view so
vehemently in an international forum is a very telltale symptom of that
blind agreement... as well as absence of objective thought.

If I really wanted to be witty right now, I'd use your apartment-building/
dog-penis analogy to (patronizingly) clarify the situation from the point
of view of the Taliban.  But I don't :)

Never underestimate the power of spin...

-(American) Denizen

Re: Attacking Afghanistan( was: Re: [L-OT] OT^2 - Thanks)

2001-10-11 by Mark at Enduser

> >Dennis!
> >
> >The story glosses over the facts in hand.
>
> Really?  I thought it was a rather accurate metaphor.

really? you can say this in all honesty?

> >You cannot deny the subtle
> >interplay between nations over centuries.
>
> There was nothing subtle about the attack.  Or the Taliban harboring
> bin Laden and his camps.  Or their constantly changing and totally
> conflicting stories about their relationship with him.

Agreeed nothing subtle about the attack - however there was a very subtle
interplay of forces (discussion, agression, ignorance, jingoism) displayed
in equal measure by all parties involved in the act (ie. attackers,
attackee, bystanders etc...)

> >By using the story to berate
> >Yoonchi you do yourself an injustice and I would go as far as to say that
> >you do a diservice to the memory of all those killed on Sept 11 and all
> >those who will be killed stemming from these atrocities.
>
> Huh?

I maintain that if anything should stem from the memory of those innocents
killled then it should be discussion, concilliation and ultimately peace. I
realise that it may be necessary to spill blood at some stage. I merely hope
that this spilling will not be as a result of anger, mistrust or revenge but
(and somewhat perversely perhaps) as a result of reasoned discussion to
determine who (if anybody) be held responsible.

A knee-jerk reaction is, I am sure, not the kind of memory that anyone would
want attached to their death.

During the height of the troubles in Northern Ireland many younf men were
killed. The next day you would regularly see their mothers on TV begging
people not to take revenge in the name of their sons that the only way
forward was forgiveness, discussion etc... (as above)

> >Debate and discussion are the lifeblood of society. If you conveniently
> >disregard the facts -
>
> Again I think it was an accurate metaphor.  What fact has been
disregarded?
>

all the important points as discussed in this list and elsewhere - I would n
ot include CNN or much of the media as good sources of information. Some
sites of interest:

http://www.thenation.com
www.janes.com

not definitive by any stretch (I  dont have time right now to ferret out all
the sites I have saved as bookmarks at the moment) . Read, discuss, follow
hyperlinks - think about it (and by this I do not suggest that you are not
thinking about it : ) )

I do not at any level condone what the Terrorists have done but the West
must realise that it is responsible for creating hatred and intolerance in
certain levels of Islamic society through certain attitudes, actions, and
inactions. This does not imply that we deserve condemnation or death, it
simply states that we have a responsibility to take on the elimination /
transformation of those attitudes and actions which cause such an effect and
to reach a compromise that will lead to understaning between us and the less
developed world. The same is true for non-westerners.

> >then at a basic level you are rejecting society, humanity
> >and all those good things.
>
> How so?   What did I miss.  Yoonchi says what I see as reasonable
> point of view is stupid.  And so I beg to differ and use a
> metaphorical story to illustrate my point.  What is the fact I have
> ignored.

I'm sorry, I'm with Yoonchi on this one.

> But I suppose that at this point this is all just rehash.  And all
> those who I have offended will be happy to know that, though I will
> probably continue to be very angry for a very long time about what
> happened to my compatriots, I will try to shut up about it here.

You are entitled to be angry - just be sure who you are angry at and why.
Nobody on this list wants to deny you that, but you must realise that they
do want you to see another viewpoint that they know to be broader than the
one you are discussing.

> There is just one thing that I haven't said though.  It was *not*
> just an attack on us loud, naive, arrogant, evil, environmentally
> hostile US cowboys.  Take a look at your economies of the past weeks
> and tell me otherwise.

we were heading for a recession anyway, many major companies had decided to
pull out of Ireland by February this year, mainly due to the fact that the
ceiling on corporate tax had to be removed as we became integrated into
Europe. A very bad thing in the short term, but I think a good thing all
round.. I know America was having its problems too, just look at all the
interest rate cuts this year - is it 9 now?

regards and respect
--
Mark Lennox
Consultant

ENDUSER
Guinness Enterprise Centre
Taylor's Lane
Dublin 8
Ireland
--
e-mail : mark@...
phone  : (+353 1) 4100 665
direct : (+353 1) 4100 707
fax : (+353 1) 4100 985
web    : http://www.enduser.ie
--
----- Original Message -----
Show quoted textHide quoted text
From: "Dennis Gunn" <mightyjohn@...>
To: <logic-ot@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Thursday, October 11, 2001 6:30 PM
Subject: Re: Attacking Afghanistan( was: Re: [L-OT] OT^2 - Thanks)


> At 5:03 PM +0100 10/11/01, Mark at Enduser wrote:
> --
>
>
>                                  Dennis Gunn
>                                  Mightyjohn@...
>
>                   check out  MIGHTY JOHN HENRY's album "hot air head"
>                                                     info at
>                         http://www.twics.com/~mightyjo/home.html
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>

Re: Attacking Afghanistan( was: Re: [L-OT] OT^2 - Thanks)

2001-10-12 by Wilson Zorn

> Ok, I want to show you how 'stupid' my comment was.
> First of all you tell a country, Afghanistan, to hand over a person, bin
Laden, > unconditionally. Then, you threaten them to attack them, if they
don't hand over that person. You, the government of the USA, go around some
countries, first stating that if you are not the ally you'll be the enemy of
the USA. You show some leaders of the western world something, noone knows
but those people in higher places, telling the world you can't show all
because of security reasons. I can buy this.

Yoonchi, if you buy this... (see below)

> Then you start a build up of the person bin Laden, as being the evil of
all evil in the public eye. All of a suden the goal shifts from trying to
combat terrorism to trying to overthrow the Taliban. What happened here?

...then why don't you know what happened?  First, your statement that the
goal shifts from terrorism to the Taliban makes it sound like this is a
leap.  You JUST GOT DONE SAYING that you "buy this", and you bought in part
that those who are not on our side are against us.  This would seemingly
include the Taliban, who has refused to assist.  And moreover they aren't a
bystanding country.  They house bin Laden WILLINGLY.  So guess what happens
by simple logic?

> Have you seen the evidence? Since when do you believe what these leaders
tell you? The only glimpse I've seen of the declaration was of an article on
the french Le Monde site, stating that bin Laden is a terrorist in the
bombing of embassies in Kenya and Tanzania; the article can be found at
http://www.lemonde.fr/article/0,5987,3230--229567-,00.html. It's in french.
And it's not proof, just a declaration.

Bin Laden has said that the WTC strike was the work of God and HE DECLARED
WAR ON THE US a LONG time ago.  EVERYONE knows and he as much as admits via
teasing he runs a terrorist network.  You just got done above saying that
you "buy" that we are fighting terrorism.  Again, what more proof would be
needed?  Who cares if he even is directly responsible?

> So all these nations, out of fear, decide to go the way America wants it.

Hahahahahahahahahaahahahahahahahaha, yes the world does what we want so
often out of fear!!! Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahhaahahahaha.

>Remember the discussion you had with Hendrik Jan? How we don't want to go
down like lemmings? That is exactly what is happening. And the focus has
gone from combatting terrorism to attacking the Taliban regime. Not that I'm
in favor of that ruthless Taliban regime, but the focus has shifted. What's
next?

Again, I just reiterate this is not in the slightest a shift.  At least not
to those of us who had a clue what going after bin Laden meant.

>Attacking Syria, because they shelter terrorists? Hey, that Syria regime is
no fav of the US either so why not use a pretext to attack it too.

We might have to.  Not just as a "pretext" but because in fact they do house
terrorists.  They have some chances - they just have to not house them or at
least invite us to help stop them.

> What next then, Saudi Arabia? I bet you'll have a big war on your hands
there if you attack them.
> So, I don't see why Bush couldn't get some diplomacy going there to get
that terrorist network annihalated. Or maybe it's purposely done to shift
the focus.

The diplomacy is at work, are you really naive enough to think that if
everyone just agrees that terrorism will go away just via that?  Look at the
UK and Ireland - there is STILL terrorism going on.  In that area it's down
to brute force now against those terrorists left standing.  At least there
the terrorists have finally gotten marginalized to a point where they really
are a pathetic leftover organization and much more powerless.

>So the real financers of terrorism are not revealed.

Perhaps - no question we should continue to pursue.  However, it seems even
our allies like Germany, who are hardly our slaves, are finding evidence
linking the recent attacks to bin Laden.

> Result of the attacks: millions of refugees, a country devasted more than
it already was, animocity towards Islamic countries with ground to breed
extremists. And maybe the nationalist feelings of a nation satisfied,
because 'we had to do something against these attrocities commited on
September 11'

No question we have to be careful.  No question that we have to follow up on
our promises of aid.

> How 'stupid' was that?

Only if we fall down in the future.  It's not yet "stupid".  I share a fear
that we may indeed turn stupid.

> Yoonchi.

Re: Attacking the Taliban vs terrorism( was: Re: [L-OT] OT^2 - Thanks)

2001-10-12 by Wilson Zorn

> It is possible to realize certain goals without having to start a war or
without casualties. The only difference is IMO that it takes longer. And for
political reasons it isn't popular to have a campaign running for long
periods of time.

"Certain" goals yes.  But do you really believe bin Laden or the Taliban
will surrender without force?  No way - both want what they perceive to be a
"holy" war.  And do you believe in the meantime that even so, we wouldn't
lose even more people to terrorism while we patiently just negotiate?

But yes often we do shortchange the longer term solution over the shorter.
I fear this as well - Yoonchi, I fear we'll abandon the war effort too
early.  I'm sorry but this war will have to last many years and will cost
many lives.  But if we're even half-way smart we can do something about this
over the long term.

> Yoonchi.

Re: Attacking Afghanistan( was: Re: [L-OT] OT^2 - Thanks)

2001-10-12 by Wilson Zorn

> facts instead of using fairy stories. These kind of  tactics are exactly
> what many in Europe find annoying about Americans and many in the Islamic
> world find annoying about the western world in general.
>
>
> I really think at the very least you should apologise to Yoonchi - off
list.
>

Okay, but my opinion is that Dennis used a good ANALOGY, not a "fairy tale".
The two are very different.  I think perhaps you should apologize to Dennis.
(No, not seriously, but I'm making a point that it's analogous to you saying
he should apologize to Yoonchi).

Re: Attacking Afghanistan( was: Re: [L-OT] OT^2 - Thanks)

2001-10-12 by Wilson Zorn

> Really?  I thought it was a rather accurate metaphor.

NO, it was an ANALOGY!  Get it right!

I'm just kidding, making light of our little debates here and ability for
everyone to pick a point to argue.

Hope everyone is doing okay personally, incidentally.

Re: Attacking Afghanistan( was: Re: [L-OT] OT^2 - Thanks)

2001-10-12 by Kool Musick

Wilson Zorn wrote:

>Hope everyone is doing okay personally, incidentally.

Yes, thank you. I sincerely hope the same holds for you.

Kool Musick
Keep Musick Kool


_________________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get your free @... address at http://mail.yahoo.com

Re: Attacking Afghanistan( was: Re: [L-OT] OT^2 - Thanks)

2001-10-12 by Wilson Zorn

Yes, thanks, doing good here.

----- Original Message -----
Show quoted textHide quoted text
From: "Kool Musick" <koolmusick@...>
To: <logic-ot@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Thursday, October 11, 2001 9:14 PM
Subject: Re: Attacking Afghanistan( was: Re: [L-OT] OT^2 - Thanks)


> Wilson Zorn wrote:
>
> >Hope everyone is doing okay personally, incidentally.
>
> Yes, thank you. I sincerely hope the same holds for you.
>
> Kool Musick
> Keep Musick Kool
>
>
> _________________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Get your free @... address at http://mail.yahoo.com
>
>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>

Re: Attacking Afghanistan( was: Re: [L-OT] OT^2 - Thanks)

2001-10-12 by Dennis Gunn

At 1:49 PM -0500 10/11/01, denizen@... wrote:
>On Fri, 12 Oct 2001, Dennis Gunn wrote:
>
>>  At 5:03 PM +0100 10/11/01, Mark at Enduser wrote:
>>  >
>>  >Dennis!
>>  >
>>  >The story glosses over the facts in hand.
>>
>>  Really?  I thought it was a rather accurate metaphor.
>>
>>  >You cannot deny the subtle
>>  >interplay between nations over centuries.
>>
>>  There was nothing subtle about the attack.  Or the Taliban harboring
>>  bin Laden and his camps.  Or their constantly changing and totally
>>  conflicting stories about their relationship with him.
>
>Nobody doubts the lack-of-subtlety in the 9-11 attack.  I think what Mark
>meant by 'subtle interplay' was the complex history of interrelations
>we've had with the middle east (and that they've had with each other) over
>the centuries.  Not to mention the varied perspectives on those
>interrelations.
>
>To discount all the other possible political motives for the actions
>against the Taliban, how they might be a small part of a much larger
>American agenda in the middle east (not explained to the press for
>political reasons), or how the grossly oversimplified popular version of
>the story (the one which your metaphor fits perfectly) may just be
>political spin, does a disservice to the complexity of the situation.

To blindly assert that whatever the US does *no matter what that is* 
does more disservice IMHO.  More than one party in this forum has 
berated the US for the failure of its intelligence in Afghanistan and 
ironically they were the same people who were berating US policies as 
basically being too evil and interventionist.  Either someone is 
attacking us for being too involved or someone is attacking us for 
being too little involved and it seems that often they are the same 
someone.   In this case it seems to me the US was doing exactly what 
our bitchiest critics are always screaming for us to do.  Leaving the 
Afghans alone to sort out their own problems.  I personally was not 
of the opinion that that was such a bad approach to dealing with them 
either.  But it didn't work out.  Now something else is necessary. 
Too bad but that's the way it goes.  Under those circumstances to 
call us evil interventionists and the berate us fools for a lack of 
military intelligence that was the direct result of a "hands off" 
policy is just too unfair and unkind.

>  > Again I think it was an accurate metaphor.  What fact has been disregarded?
>>
>>  How so?   What did I miss.  Yoonchi says what I see as reasonable
>>  point of view is stupid.  And so I beg to differ and use a
>>  metaphorical story to illustrate my point.  What is the fact I have
>>  ignored.
>
>Well, for one, the fact that this is not even about Afghanistan
>(represented by the guesthouse in your analogy).

There is no guest house in my analogy.  There is a guest in a house. 
And nothing in my analogy indicates any interest in the house (the 
territory) whatsoever.  The house is fact not the issue either in the 
analogy or in the real life situation.  One thing I did gloss over in 
my analogy is that Mr T is a violent and crazy bastard himself.


>Afghanistan just happens
>to be the stage on which the bloody part of this long conflict begins to
>unfold.  If it were another country that was taken over by a
>fundamentalist Islamic regime after it was destabilized by Russian
>invasion and civil war, we'd be bombing it instead.

Hypothetical and irrelevant.

>
>I don't necessarily disagree with what we're doing in Afghanistan right
>now, but I have a serious problem with what amounts to blind agreement
>with national policy, especially against an enemy this determined,
>ruthless, and intelligent... and arguing the official point of view so
>vehemently in an international forum is a very telltale symptom of that
>blind agreement... as well as absence of objective thought.

Agreement?   Yes.  Blind?  What kind of heightened visual perception 
is it that makes it easy to see and debate about the ants in grass 
and difficult to see that what is making your foot hurt is the 
elephant standing on it?
-- 


                                 Dennis Gunn
                                 Mightyjohn@...

                  check out  MIGHTY JOHN HENRY's album "hot air head"
                                                    info at
                        http://www.twics.com/~mightyjo/home.html

Re: Attacking Afghanistan( was: Re: [L-OT] OT^2 - Thanks)

2001-10-12 by denizen@INSYNC.NET

On Fri, 12 Oct 2001, Dennis Gunn wrote:

> At 1:49 PM -0500 10/11/01, denizen@... wrote:
>
> > On Fri, 12 Oct 2001, Dennis Gunn wrote:
> >
> >>  There was nothing subtle about the attack.  Or the Taliban harboring
> >>  bin Laden and his camps.  Or their constantly changing and totally
> >>  conflicting stories about their relationship with him.
> >
> >Nobody doubts the lack-of-subtlety in the 9-11 attack.  I think what Mark
> >meant by 'subtle interplay' was the complex history of interrelations
> >we've had with the middle east (and that they've had with each other) over
> >the centuries.  Not to mention the varied perspectives on those
> >interrelations.
> >
> >To discount all the other possible political motives for the actions
> >against the Taliban, how they might be a small part of a much larger
> >American agenda in the middle east (not explained to the press for
> >political reasons), or how the grossly oversimplified popular version of
> >the story (the one which your metaphor fits perfectly) may just be
> >political spin, does a disservice to the complexity of the situation.
> 
> To blindly assert that whatever the US does [is wrong] *no matter what
> that is* does more disservice IMHO.  More than one party in this forum
> has berated the US for the failure of its intelligence in Afghanistan and
> ironically they were the same people who were berating US policies as 
> basically being too evil and interventionist.  Either someone is 
> attacking us for being too involved or someone is attacking us for 
> being too little involved and it seems that often they are the same 
> someone.   In this case it seems to me the US was doing exactly what 
> our bitchiest critics are always screaming for us to do.  Leaving the 
> Afghans alone to sort out their own problems.  I personally was not 
> of the opinion that that was such a bad approach to dealing with them 
> either.  But it didn't work out.  Now something else is necessary. 
> Too bad but that's the way it goes.  Under those circumstances to 
> call us evil interventionists and the berate us fools for a lack of 
> military intelligence that was the direct result of a "hands off" 
> policy is just too unfair and unkind.

First of all, I never blindly asserted that everything the US does is
wrong.  My whole argument (and my only reason for contributing to this
thread) is to point out that the version of the situation in your analogy
is not even close to the whole story... And since nothing in your response
challenges this, I'll assume you agree.

Now as for the other point you raise... I see those who criticize US
policy in the Middle East more often referring not to the fact that we
pulled out of Afghanistan prematurely (as you suggest), leaving it
destabilized after a decade at war with the Russians.  That merely allowed
it to develop as a training ground for soldiers in a holy war hostile to
the US.  Not inconsequential, but the US policy I see questioned more
frequently is that which allowed such disapproval in the Muslim world to
develop in the first place.  With as much as we've apparently done to piss
these people off, I think we'd have suffered the same fate sooner or
later, availability of Rancho Afghanistan Terrorism Camp or not.

> >  > Again I think it was an accurate metaphor.  What fact has been disregarded?
> >>
> >>  How so?   What did I miss.  Yoonchi says what I see as reasonable
> >>  point of view is stupid.  And so I beg to differ and use a
> >>  metaphorical story to illustrate my point.  What is the fact I have
> >>  ignored.
> >
> >Well, for one, the fact that this is not even about Afghanistan
> >(represented by the guesthouse in your analogy).
> 
> There is no guest house in my analogy.  There is a guest in a house. 

Dude, you are SO splitting a hair.  And you forgot your smiley. :)

> And nothing in my analogy indicates any interest in the house (the 
> territory) whatsoever.  The house is fact not the issue either in the 
> analogy or in the real life situation.

Okay, let me clarify... when I said "this is not even about Afghanistan",
what I meant was "this is not even about the situation in Afghanistan".
And it's not.  It's not about bombing a country and replacing its
government because they're protecting a suspected terrorist.  Is that any
clearer?

> >I don't necessarily disagree with what we're doing in Afghanistan right
> >now, but I have a serious problem with what amounts to blind agreement
> >with national policy, especially against an enemy this determined,
> >ruthless, and intelligent... and arguing the official point of view so
> >vehemently in an international forum is a very telltale symptom of that
> >blind agreement... as well as absence of objective thought.
> 
> Agreement?   Yes.  Blind?  What kind of heightened visual perception 
> is it that makes it easy to see and debate about the ants in grass 
> and difficult to see that what is making your foot hurt is the 
> elephant standing on it?

Hmm...  I think you've just said that it's obvious that what the US is
doing is right.  Sounds like you want to argue US foreign policy...

-Denizen

Re: [L-OT] What Would Happen If... ?

2001-10-12 by LogicBaby

You could have not said it any better, totally agree, I am against terrorism
in any means but on the same hand one has to question the reasons, its not
an action Hollywood movie gang, its not between "the Evil and the Good",
"wanted dead or alive", "they hate us because we are free"....... Its about
economics, policing the source of wealth, indirect colonization of
others....let me be clear,
1-I hate Bin Laden and his ideologies, but I am still not very convinced
that he is the engineer behind all this, so far the media has done a good
job of blowing him out of proportion,  what happened to "innocent until
proven guilty", I don¹t buy that the prove is only offered to the leaders in
the west.....

2- I think American troops should leave the Gulf and I can understand why
some Saudis are angry "not there government"
3- I think its time to solve the big problems in the middle east not bomb
some country and cause millions of refugees to leave there homes in acts of
revenge.
4-I think its pointless to place an embargo in Iraq, Saddam is happy
drinking the finest whisky "that¹s what he likes BTW" while the children of
Iraq are dieing everyday because of lack of food and medicine.....You are
doing Saddam a favor and its stupid, things where starting to get better at
the end of the Clinton era, but now baby Bush wants to copy his Dady....

4-Again we should ask "WHY" and look at the source of the problems, Bush's
answers are just plain pathetic.
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> 
> Hi gang,
> 
> This is what I started to write to Dennis, but it got pretty offtopic for
> the thread, so here it is with its own.
> 
> Being the idealist-pacifict that I am, I used to think that we wouldn't
> have any of these problems if we adopted a neutral, hands-off,
> friendly-to-all foreign policy.  You don't have to know a whole lot about
> what's going on to suppose that you'd have fewer enemies with legitimate
> gripes if you never took sides and never hurt anyone.  I think that's
> valid, but unrealistic.  I can't say that's the way the people you're
> referring to think, but that's certainly how I felt when I thought about
> it... before I realized that you can't just stop all these ancient human
> forces so easily.  Loyalties, ideologies, alliances and conflicts have
> been splashing around between civilizations for generations, losing a
> little more clarity and sanity with each.  You can't stop a swinging
> pendulum by slapping it as hard as you can in the opposite direction (take
> THAT, evil bastards!), as it will just swing around and hit you in the
> ass.  You have to neutralize it by applying a well-timed equal and
> opposite force.  What's the opposite of fear, anger, hatred, and
> retaliation?
> 
> What would be the Muslim world's response if we stopped bombing
> Afghanistan, pulled troops out of Saudi Arabia (after talking to the king
> about it of course), met with Islamic leaders to tell them that we'll end
> the Iraqi embargo as soon as we capture Saddam (and then send in special
> operatives to carry this out-- nobody likes Saddam :-), explain our
> motives for each military action they cite as part of our war on Islam,
> deliver a few eloquently translated speeches along with huge amounts of
> aid to Afghanistan and post-Saddam Iraq, and strike a deal that includes
> an end to global terrorism in exchange for a defended state of Palestine?
> 
> All we have to do is keep reasonable peace and comfort for at least a
> generation... long enough to suppress the anger and install a few nice
> gardens and fountains.  Nice stuff that it would be a shame if the US had
> to bomb because they violated something in our 2002 peace agreement...
> 
> I'll anticipate the response of critics... let's see...
> 
> 1.  Osama will cooperate long enough to betray us once our naive trust has
>   made us once again vulnerable.
> 
> 2.  Meeting any demands will reinforce the effectiveness of terrorism as a
>   political means, thus legitimizing it, and encouraging its future use.
> 
> 3.  We can't reconcile our alliances with the comprimises this policy
>   would require. (Israel)
> 
> 4.  We will appear as (and feel like) cowards for caving into demands
>   against what we supposedly believed in the moment our security and
>   lifestyles were threatened.
> 
> 5.  The current demands of the militant fundamentalist Muslims are just
>   the tip of the iceberg.  They will continue to employ these tactics
>   until they achieve a list of goals far less reasonable than a mere
>   withdrawal of the meddlesome West from the affairs of the Islamic
>   world.
> 
> Feel free to ridicule my silly naive peacenik pot-smoking tie-dyed
> idealistic ideas, but ONLY when you explain to me why they're bad ones.
> Not saying they're not, but I sincerely want to know.
> 
> What would happen?
> 
> -Denizen
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> 
>

What Would Happen If... ?

2001-10-12 by denizen@INSYNC.NET

Hi gang,

This is what I started to write to Dennis, but it got pretty offtopic for
the thread, so here it is with its own.

Being the idealist-pacifict that I am, I used to think that we wouldn't
have any of these problems if we adopted a neutral, hands-off,
friendly-to-all foreign policy.  You don't have to know a whole lot about
what's going on to suppose that you'd have fewer enemies with legitimate
gripes if you never took sides and never hurt anyone.  I think that's
valid, but unrealistic.  I can't say that's the way the people you're
referring to think, but that's certainly how I felt when I thought about
it... before I realized that you can't just stop all these ancient human
forces so easily.  Loyalties, ideologies, alliances and conflicts have
been splashing around between civilizations for generations, losing a
little more clarity and sanity with each.  You can't stop a swinging
pendulum by slapping it as hard as you can in the opposite direction (take
THAT, evil bastards!), as it will just swing around and hit you in the
ass.  You have to neutralize it by applying a well-timed equal and
opposite force.  What's the opposite of fear, anger, hatred, and
retaliation?

What would be the Muslim world's response if we stopped bombing 
Afghanistan, pulled troops out of Saudi Arabia (after talking to the king 
about it of course), met with Islamic leaders to tell them that we'll end
the Iraqi embargo as soon as we capture Saddam (and then send in special 
operatives to carry this out-- nobody likes Saddam :-), explain our 
motives for each military action they cite as part of our war on Islam,
deliver a few eloquently translated speeches along with huge amounts of   
aid to Afghanistan and post-Saddam Iraq, and strike a deal that includes  
an end to global terrorism in exchange for a defended state of Palestine?

All we have to do is keep reasonable peace and comfort for at least a
generation... long enough to suppress the anger and install a few nice
gardens and fountains.  Nice stuff that it would be a shame if the US had
to bomb because they violated something in our 2002 peace agreement...

I'll anticipate the response of critics... let's see...

1.  Osama will cooperate long enough to betray us once our naive trust has
    made us once again vulnerable.

2.  Meeting any demands will reinforce the effectiveness of terrorism as a
    political means, thus legitimizing it, and encouraging its future use.

3.  We can't reconcile our alliances with the comprimises this policy
    would require. (Israel)

4.  We will appear as (and feel like) cowards for caving into demands
    against what we supposedly believed in the moment our security and
    lifestyles were threatened.

5.  The current demands of the militant fundamentalist Muslims are just 
    the tip of the iceberg.  They will continue to employ these tactics
    until they achieve a list of goals far less reasonable than a mere
    withdrawal of the meddlesome West from the affairs of the Islamic
    world.

Feel free to ridicule my silly naive peacenik pot-smoking tie-dyed
idealistic ideas, but ONLY when you explain to me why they're bad ones.
Not saying they're not, but I sincerely want to know.

What would happen?

-Denizen

Re: Attacking Afghanistan( was: Re: [L-OT] OT^2 - Thanks)

2001-10-12 by Vincent Kenis

>Hope everyone is doing okay personally, incidentally.

Thank you very much for asking. Some of my best friends live in war 
zones (Congo, Rwanda, Macedonia) and it's certainly one reason for 
these horrible dreams I have these days. Objectively, I'm fine.

Re: What Would Happen If... ?

2001-10-12 by cas@s.netic.de

As someone who was indirectly affected by the Gulf War (my dad 
and my best friend were US Army sent to Saudi Arabia), I have 
always believed that we should have left that region as soon as 
the campaign was over. We wore out our welcome a long time 
ago. Not only does the Muslim /Arab world think so, so do 
members of our own government. Please don't start with the 
"well, we're there at the request of the Saudis" BS,either. 

This is one area where I tend to agree with the Arab world on; 
We should've "got while the gettin' was good". 

As far as the Israeli / Paletinian conflict is concerned, I'm still 
waiting for those Muslim critics of US policy in the MidEast to 
finally realize that at the end of the day, it's up to Isreal and the 
Paletinians to solve that conflict, and as long as they both hate 
each other as much as they do, no amount of US or other 
countries' intervention will bring peace to that region. 

The best chance that Israel had in attaining peace was ended by 
the bullet of a Jewish extremist, not a Muslim one (the 
assaination of Yitzak Rabin). Netanyahu , and now Sharon (two 
of Israel's most fundamentalist-thinking mainstream politicians, 
IMO) just made matter worse. Coupled by the fact that the 
Palestinians are pretty much letting Hamas and Hezbollah 
dictate their policy, and you have the recipie for mini 
Armageddon, something that no amount of US intervention will 
be able to fix. This is why I don't buy the claim from many Arabs / 
Muslims that US policy is somehow at fault for the current 
situation in the Middle East.

On CNN the other day, they interviewed two Arab journalists 
regarding the current situation, and one of them made the point:
" In the Arab world, there is an astonishing lack of self reflection, 
self criticism, and self analysis when it comes to the problems of 
the region. Many of the issues that we tend to blame the West 
(the US)for, we could easliy solve ourselves, but somehow we 
choose not to." 

Something to think about.

Charles

Re: [L-OT] What Would Happen If... ?

2001-10-12 by Joeri Vankeirsbilck

> Feel free to ridicule my silly naive peacenik pot-smoking tie-dyed
> idealistic ideas, but ONLY when you explain to me why they're bad ones.
> Not saying they're not, but I sincerely want to know


I won't comment on your ideas, but I had some funny ideas as well: what 
if the US didn't drop bombs, but only dropped food! All the money that 
goes into missiles (one of my colleagues in the studio works for the 
army. He maintains missiles, and he's told me how much one such a 
missile costs....) could be put into food etc. What if we dropped huge 
amounts of food, together with millions of leaflets about how good our 
situation is and how bad their situation is. People whithin Afghanistan 
would imo start to oppose the regime and make it implode. I know it's 
very naive.... but it's good to have positive thoughts once in a while. ;-)

-- 
Joeri Vankeirsbilck
joeri@...

Belway Productions      -     http://www.belway.com
List-admin   Logic-users/SoundD*ver-users/Logic-TDM

Re: [L-OT] What Would Happen If... ?

2001-10-12 by maakbow@hotmail.com

> I won't comment on your ideas, but I had some funny ideas as well: 
>what if the US didn't drop bombs, but only dropped food! All the 
>money that goes into missiles (one of my colleagues in the studio 
>works for the army. He maintains missiles, and he's told me how much 
>one such a missile costs....) could be put into food etc. What if we 
>dropped huge amounts of food, together with millions of leaflets 
>about how good our situation is and how bad their situation is. 
>People whithin Afghanistan would imo start to oppose the regime and 
>make it implode. I know it's very naive.... but it's good to have 
>positive thoughts once in a while. ;-)

King solomon, once wrote "If your enemy hunger,giver him bread to 
eat, if he is thirsty, give him water to drink, for in doing so you 
will heap coals of fire on his head"[Proverbs 25:21]

Move to quarantaine

This moves the raw source file on disk only. The archive index is not changed automatically, so you still need to run a manual refresh afterward.