The Logic Off Topic list

At 4:02 PM +0200 10/8/01, Vincent Kenis wrote:
>  >What a stubbornly negative view.  Why does anyone  have to "come
>>down"?
>
>Obviously because the planet's resources are not sufficient to allow
>all humanity to live like Americans. I thought everybody knew that ...

*sigh*

1.  The issue in this conflict is clearly not energy consumption.  If 
you have been listening to what bin Laden has been saying and came to 
the conclusion it was, then you should check around and see where 
your marbles have rolled off to.

2.  If you believe that the issue is distribution of wealth then you 
must remember that the wealth of the Arab world comes from US, 
Europe, and Japanese energy consumption.  Historically OPEC has done 
everything in their power to encourage that energy consumption.  It 
is true that the wealth generated among many of those Islamic Oil 
producing countries is poorly distributed within those countries 
populations.  I am not of the opinion that there is a whole lot the 
US can do about that, but I am very doubtful that reducing the amount 
of money entering the economies of those countries would be of any 
particular benefit to their populations.  It would be nice see those 
countries investing in technologies that may be of economic use to 
them in a future where they have less oil to sell.  Maybe that is 
happening but I have not seen any examples.

3.  There are historical as well as geographical reasons why the US 
energy consumption is relatively high.  The US infrastructure was not 
built in a day. It has been developing over about a 100 year period 
during which energy was relatively cheap.  I have always thought that 
American automobile manufacturers could put more effort into 
increasing fuel economy of their cars.  In the past few years they 
have been doing better.  But the reasons for them doing so have very 
little to do with inherent morality just as the reasons why things 
are different in Europe have nothing to do with inherent morality 
which brings me to:

4.  There are historical as well as geographical reasons why European 
energy consumption is relatively low.  European automobiles and 
peoples basic habits with regard to energy consumption have developed 
in an atmosphere where the cost of energy was relatively high.  But 
the reasons for them doing so have very little to do with inherent 
morality its mainly just a matter of history and economics.  Now it 
has become extremely convenient OTOH for Europeans to claim a 
position of moral superiority since they can do so without changing 
their habits at all and can conveniently ignore the fact that is was 
economy rather than environmental considerations that lead to their 
energy consumption habits in the first place.

5.  I live in Tokyo.  I am highly skeptical about any claims that 
Japanese energy consumption habits are better than those in the US. 
For example on a hot summer day there are sections of town where you 
can cool off just walking on the street in front off the large open 
store fronts where the cold air from the air conditioners just pours 
out on the street.  Several areas within Tokyo are about as bright as 
Las Vegas every night.  Most houses to this day do not have 
insulation in the walls.  I think people may put less miles on their 
cars because the streets are narrower and more crowded and it just 
takes longer to get anywhere.  I can't be sure about this though. 
Traffic is incredibly heavy I regularly see traffic jams even when I 
am taking a Taxi at 3:00 AM .  I take a train whenever I can but they 
stop running at about 12:30, since there are still a lot of people 
working and commuting after those hours IMHO a vast amount of energy 
could be saved just but running the trains and subways 24/7. 
Working in "show biz" as I do I am also skeptical of any statistic 
cited in the media because I have witnessed with my own eyes people 
"just making them up".

6.  The technology exists now to decrease energy consumption and do 
it in a way the will not have an un acceptable impact on peoples life 
styles.  I am all for that.  Promotion of these technologies should 
be a priority of western governments.  Bitching and whining about us 
being too rich and them being to poor will never work.   People like 
to be wealthy.  That won't change.  The realistic solution of the 
problem is to implement the technologies that allow people to live 
well with out living wastefully.  It's happening.  Slowly.

7.  I don't "know" what will be possible in the future regarding 
living standards but I do know that vast amounts resources are 
totally wasted on war, corruption, and repression.
-- 


                                 Dennis Gunn
                                 Mightyjohn@...

                  check out  MIGHTY JOHN HENRY's album "hot air head"
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