unsubscribe ----- Original Message ----- From: <logic-ot@yahoogroups.com> To: <logic-ot@yahoogroups.com> Sent: Monday, October 29, 2001 4:56 AM Subject: [L-OT] Digest Number 393 > There are 7 messages in this issue. > > Topics in this digest: > > 1. Re: RE: The Real Cause is religion mixed with politics > From: Dennis Gunn <dennisg@...> > 2. Re: Re: RE: The Real Cause is religion mixed with politics > From: GAmoore@... > 3. Re: Re: RE: The Real Cause is religion mixed with politics > From: Dennis Gunn <dennisg@...> > 4. Re: RE: The Real Cause is religion mixed with politics > From: Joeri Vankeirsbilck <joeri@...> > 5. RE: Re: RE: The Real Cause is religion mixed with politic s > From: Tiran Edri <tiran@...> > 6. RE: The Real Cause is religion mixed with politics > From: Tiran Edri <tiran@...> > 7. Re: RE: The Real Cause is religion mixed with politic s > From: Joeri Vankeirsbilck <joeri@...> > > > ________________________________________________________________________ > ________________________________________________________________________ > > Message: 1 > Date: Sun, 28 Oct 2001 23:47:19 -0800 > From: Dennis Gunn <dennisg@...> > Subject: Re: RE: The Real Cause is religion mixed with politics > > > > >i'm sure that my partially-informed opinion is not of very much value, > >though, when there are *hundreds* of authoritative books and articles > >available on this intensely complex subject --- if you're truly curious, > >there is a wealth of materials available for your edification. > >best, > >splattercell > > I am interested in this and have read some history books that seem > to bear out basically what you said. I am wondering if you could > tell me any titles that might get me a little further along the road. > I have looked before but the only material I could find was so dense > it was just kind of too daunting for someone just like myself trying > to get just a little toe hold on the subject > > > ________________________________________________________________________ > ________________________________________________________________________ > > Message: 2 > Date: Sun, 28 Oct 2001 13:12:16 EST > From: GAmoore@... > Subject: Re: Re: RE: The Real Cause is religion mixed with politics > > If you really want to learn the facts, you need to read a variety of > books, and make sure they come from neutral sources - perhaps European > sources. Arab sources tend to not have the same journalistic standards we > have in the west. There are many very intelligent and highly educated > Jewish righters (and I say Jewish because they are not just Israeli, but > Jewish people from many countries), and apologists who know how to write > very convincinly - however, they have a huge personal stake in the > argument and tend to be biased. I think Rabin's widow wrote a book, and I > think Shimon Perez may have - they might be reliable Israeli's. > > The American media is not completely biased but its not fair either. Just > today on CNN, a big report of a few Isrealis who were killed by some > Palestinians - like it was headline news. However, each of the past few > days greater numbers of Palestinians have been killed by the Israeli army > which has re-invaded Palestinian controlled areas and these things are > barely mentioned at all - often in passing and without any great hoopla. > > >I am interested in this and have read some history books that seem > >to bear out basically what you said. I am wondering if you could > >tell me any titles that might get me a little further along the road. > >I have looked before but the only material I could find was so dense > >it was just kind of too daunting for someone just like myself trying > >to get just a little toe hold on the subject > > > ________________________________________________________________________ > ________________________________________________________________________ > > Message: 3 > Date: Mon, 29 Oct 2001 09:45:55 -0800 > From: Dennis Gunn <dennisg@...> > Subject: Re: Re: RE: The Real Cause is religion mixed with politics > > >If you really want to learn the facts, you need to read a variety of > >books, and make sure they come from neutral sources - perhaps European > >sources. > > Thank you. Normally I believe every single word that I read. I will > try to be more careful in the future. :-) > > Meanwhile I was just wondering where to get started on that > particular subject. Some of the books that I was able to find in the > past were things like huge volumes of nothing but unedited > transcriptions of very long winded political speeches by all the > parties involved in negotiations etc... with very little in the way > of reporting on the incidents that that were going on at the times > the politicians were speaking. Great stuff for someone doing a > university thesis but not a good place to start for someone just > trying to get a little grip. > > > > >The American media is not completely biased but its not fair either. Just > >today on CNN, a big report of a few Isrealis who were killed by some > >Palestinians - like it was headline news. However, each of the past few > >days greater numbers of Palestinians have been killed by the Israeli army > >which has re-invaded Palestinian controlled areas and these things are > >barely mentioned at all - often in passing and without any great hoopla. > > I wonder if CNN and BBC are different here in Japan than in the > States. Here I mainly see pictures of Israeli tanks rolling around > Palestinian neighborhoods and the big holes they leave behind. > > > > ________________________________________________________________________ > ________________________________________________________________________ > > Message: 4 > Date: Mon, 29 Oct 2001 06:05:42 +0100 > From: Joeri Vankeirsbilck <joeri@...> > Subject: Re: RE: The Real Cause is religion mixed with politics > > > Meanwhile I was just wondering where to get started on that > > particular subject. Some of the books that I was able to find in the > > past were things like huge volumes of nothing but unedited > > transcriptions of very long winded political speeches by all the > > parties involved in negotiations etc... with very little in the way > > of reporting on the incidents that that were going on at the times > > the politicians were speaking. Great stuff for someone doing a > > university thesis but not a good place to start for someone just > > trying to get a little grip. > > > I agree it's difficult to find good objective literature on this matter. > I'll ask around at university next week. > > > > I wonder if CNN and BBC are different here in Japan than in the > > States. > > I think so. Over here we also have special editions: CNBC Europe etc. > You can already see the differences on the website: go to CNN e.g. and > you'll see you can choose between US and other regions if I'm not mistaken. > > > Here I mainly see pictures of Israeli tanks rolling around > > Palestinian neighborhoods and the big holes they leave behind. > > I haven't watched CNN lately, but our media (and the atmosphere in > general) is getting tougher and tougher towards Israeli's. > It was Belgium (and more specifically our minister of foreign affairs) > who started all of this officially: Arafat was invited to Belgium > exactly one week before Israeli officials were expected. Also, Arafat > was invited in the Senate while Israeli officials weren't. > I'm not sure whether this was the right action, but it definitely was > the first time that the position of our government was so outspoken. > (hope this is correct english) > > > > -- > Joeri Vankeirsbilck > joeri@... > > Belway Productions - http://www.belway.com > List-admin Logic-users/SoundD*ver-users/Logic-TDM > > > > > > > > ________________________________________________________________________ > ________________________________________________________________________ > > Message: 5 > Date: Mon, 29 Oct 2001 11:00:58 +0200 > From: Tiran Edri <tiran@...> > Subject: RE: Re: RE: The Real Cause is religion mixed with politic s > > There is a MAJOR difference between those Palestinians who have been killed > by the Israelies- the vast majority of them are armed Palestinians who > attached Israelis , and it doesn't matter if the Israelis I'm talking about > are soldiers or not. > even those who are not armed with gun ,usually, are participating in violent > "stone throwing" and violent so called "demonstrations". > > The Israelis who got killed got murdered by shooting a car driving in a road > ,shooting in a mall ,in a street . > Imaging you're walking in Tokyo and two man armed with semi-automatic guns > fires at you. that's the correct picture. > > what pisses me off most the time is that the Israelis army are doing more > than any other army in the world ,trying not to kill, trying to keep > innocent people safe, unhurt - yet people are thinking we're the bad guys. > again most of those palestinians who get killed in the last year are armed > people who got killed. and that's ok by me. I'm sorry and surely not happy > when some inocent people get killed ,but in war , and we are in "not > offical" war , inocent people get hurt. what we ,as israelies are try is to > minimise the number of innocent people get hurt while the palestinians are > using every effort to kill more people , while lying to the international > press. > > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Dennis Gunn [mailto:dennisg@...] > Sent: Monday, October 29, 2001 7:46 PM > To: logic-ot@yahoogroups.com > Subject: Re: Re: [L-OT] RE: The Real Cause is religion mixed with > politics > > > >If you really want to learn the facts, you need to read a variety of > >books, and make sure they come from neutral sources - perhaps European > >sources. > > Thank you. Normally I believe every single word that I read. I will > try to be more careful in the future. :-) > > Meanwhile I was just wondering where to get started on that > particular subject. Some of the books that I was able to find in the > past were things like huge volumes of nothing but unedited > transcriptions of very long winded political speeches by all the > parties involved in negotiations etc... with very little in the way > of reporting on the incidents that that were going on at the times > the politicians were speaking. Great stuff for someone doing a > university thesis but not a good place to start for someone just > trying to get a little grip. > > > > >The American media is not completely biased but its not fair either. Just > >today on CNN, a big report of a few Isrealis who were killed by some > >Palestinians - like it was headline news. However, each of the past few > >days greater numbers of Palestinians have been killed by the Israeli army > >which has re-invaded Palestinian controlled areas and these things are > >barely mentioned at all - often in passing and without any great hoopla. > > I wonder if CNN and BBC are different here in Japan than in the > States. Here I mainly see pictures of Israeli tanks rolling around > Palestinian neighborhoods and the big holes they leave behind. > > > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > > > ________________________________________________________________________ > ________________________________________________________________________ > > Message: 6 > Date: Mon, 29 Oct 2001 11:08:06 +0200 > From: Tiran Edri <tiran@...> > Subject: RE: The Real Cause is religion mixed with politics > > no , but the Palestinians are trying to put pressure on Israel and the only > effective way to do this today is convincing the world that all their > problems are because of the israel-palestinian. > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Adam Pendse [mailto:yumyum@...] > Sent: Tuesday, October 23, 2001 11:34 PM > To: logic-ot@yahoogroups.com > Subject: RE: [L-OT] The Real Cause is religion mixed with politics > > > > Is it really America's fault for what is happening between Israel and > > palestein?? > > Err....... > > > > > > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > > > ________________________________________________________________________ > ________________________________________________________________________ > > Message: 7 > Date: Mon, 29 Oct 2001 10:45:13 +0100 > From: Joeri Vankeirsbilck <joeri@...> > Subject: Re: RE: The Real Cause is religion mixed with politic s > > > > > > >what pisses me off most the time is that the Israelis army are doing more > >than any other army in the world ,trying not to kill, trying to keep > >innocent people safe, unhurt - yet people are thinking we're the bad guys. > > > I think the reason is because there's too much violence. People are > hoping for a peaceful solution. The Isreali army is very well equipped > and the Palestinians are not, I think this adds to the bad image. > > I personally don't care much about these army attacks. What I do care > about though is how Israel has continued to create new villages inside > Palestinian area and how some Palestinians still live in inhuman > conditions in refugee camps. Those are two more important matters to > me... and I think it's exactly those two reasons that cause > fundamentalism from Palestinian side. > > >again most of those palestinians who get killed in the last year are armed > >people who got killed. > > > The widely spread image of the father protection his child, that was > shot dead while trying to hide, definitely made the Israel army look bad. > > >I'm sorry and surely not happy > >when some inocent people get killed ,but in war , and we are in "not > >offical" war , inocent people get hurt. what we ,as israelies are try is to > >minimise the number of innocent people get hurt while the palestinians are > >using every effort to kill more people , while lying to the international > >press. > > > The Palestinians are using terrorist attacks to get media attention. > That's what suppressed people do sometimes. That's what the ANC did in > South Africa decades ago as well. It's the only way for them to get > attention to make their point. I definitely don't approve it. I hope > there will be a peaceful solution for the Israel-Palestine matter one > day. An official Palestinian state would be a good first step, but I > must admit that I don't see how Jerusalem can be "split up"... :-( > > > -- > Joeri Vankeirsbilck > joeri@... > > Belway Productions - http://www.belway.com > List-admin Logic-users/SoundD*ver-users/Logic-TDM > > > > > > > > ________________________________________________________________________ > ________________________________________________________________________ > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > >
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2001-10-29 by AL